Ship of Fools: Anglican coffee

Thread: Anglican coffee Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :

I hope Augustine the Aleut has recovered from his traumatic experience and loss of his camera. I'm amazed he was able to take in anything at all about the service which followed (especially as it was bilingual), but thank you for that report.

However what struck me particularly was his remark about the quality of the coffee. It must rate 5 stars in the post-service refreshment league. 'Coffee' in most Anglican churches is a euphemism for a faintly brown liquid produced by pouring lukewarm water on approximately a quarter-teaspoonful of instant granules. I've even experienced this in a church on the French Riviera.

In these days, when coffee bars proliferate and even St*****cks can produce something which looks and tastes like (albeit inferior) coffee, is it just Anglican masochism that makes us continue to serve and drink such rubbish? Or is it that most churchgoers are firmly stuck in the 1950s and enjoy their visits to church as a pleasantly nostalgic timewarp?

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :

Buggered if I know. I always have tea at most Anglican churches for this very reason. The tea's awful as well, but as a confirmed member of the Church of Real Coffee it's not actually a sacrilege, just a manky drink.

Posted by Thurible (# 3206) on :

We have proper coffee (well, percolated stuff). When the people doing the coffee like coffee, and so put enough in, it's very pleasant. When they don't, and so put enough in to turn it a vague beige, it's foul.

Thurible

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :

Ah. Mellow Tu^h^h Birds. Coffee for people who don't like coffee. Found in churches up and down the land.

Posted by Indifferently (# 17517) on :

Who cares? I go to church to worship God. If there's any refreshment after the service worth bothering with it's usually of the fermented variety.

Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :

Indifferently: you are obviously not a Proper Anglican. Coffee is the eighth sacrament (or for more protestant types, the third). Anglo-catholics of course count Gin as the eighth and Proper Coffee as the ninth.

Posted by Liturgylover (# 15711) on :

We have two pots of filtered coffee (one medium and one strong). Our tea used to be awful until someone bought in a big battered old china teapot that now makes a lovely cuppa. The church provides biscuits but our congregation is good for bringing in home made cakes.

In my wonderings I commend the following for good coffee oh, and good liturgy!):

St John's Hyde Park
Holy Trinity Sloane Square
St Martin-in-the-Fields
St James Paddington

Talking of the other stuff, I noticed that ASMS now have sherry in the courtyard, and I have yet to try the famous pink gin from St Mary Bourne St.

Posted by South Coast Kevin (# 16130) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Indifferently:
Who cares? I go to church to worship God.

I aim to worship God with my whole life. [Razz]

Going to church is about meeting with my fellow Christians (and interested enquirers - it's not a closed meeting) for mutual encouragement and challenge, to help us all actually worship God (i.e. live according to His ways) with our whole lives.

And good coffee helps a little bit in this, I reckon. It encourages conversation after the 'official' bit of the service and helps visitors / newcomers feel welcome. So a +1 from me for proper coffee.

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :

At the risk of being ageist and sexist, the trick here is, in most cases, do not let elderly ladies in the congregation be responsible for the coffee.

Most - and I emphasise most - of this particular demographic grew up in an era where a spoonful of nescafé in hot milk was the epitome of luxury; cream was virtually royalty. I have one friend with a mother from this period who does not in her house HAVE a cafetiere or coffee filter or any means of making real coffee at yet claims to like coffee. Alaric, if I recall correctly, has a tale from his own mother's coffee making that would chill your blood.

Sad but, to a first approximation, true.

Posted by Clavus (# 9427) on :

A few years ago we moved from instant granules to Fair Trade ground filter coffee. A local supplier sells 100 1-jug sachets for £104 with free delivery, and this lasts us about three months. The supplier loans us a commercial filter machine and two glass jugs for free. Since we made the change the number of worshippers staying behind for coffee has doubled and we make £400-£500 per year profit.

Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :

Not ageist or sexist at all, Karl. Your analysis seems spot on. The fact is, a large proportion (often a majority) of church congregations consist of elderly ladies of that ilk. Even if there are as many men around (unusual) that generation expect that it's the women's job to do the domestic chores. Flower arranging is where they can flourish*, but making the so-called coffee is one of their more routine roles. The men would no more usurp that role than the women would expect, or even allow, them to. And as you say, they grew up in the 50s when milky instant was the height of luxury. Except that in churches you don't usually get that much milk.

*though I once had a male septuagenarian chief flower 'lady'.

[ 10. May 2013, 12:10: Message edited by: Angloid ]

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :

We don't have many elderly ladies (or men, for that matter), but we do have a Youthful Churchwarden Who Cares About Coffee!

(And we are a Fairtrade parish, too).

Ian J.

Posted by Bostonman (# 17108) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Indifferently:
Who cares? I go to church to worship God. If there's any refreshment after the service worth bothering with it's usually of the fermented variety.

Beer or wine? Or do you mean distilled?

I'm going to guess port or gin, honestly.

Posted by Swick (# 8773) on :

The quality of our coffee depends of course on who's making it. When I make it my rule of thumb is one coffee scop for every two cups, and then one exta scoop for the pot. Others make coffee that's more like light brown water, and worse will add heeps of cinnamon.

Posted by Zach82 (# 3208) on :

I once went to a Baptist church that had a full on coffee shop in the lobby staffed by honest-to-goodness baristas serving everything from espresso to those cold, over-sweetened blended coffee beverages that all the kids are raving about these days. I didn't check, but I am willing to bet that all the coffee-beverages had Jesus themed names.

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :

Our church has a café attached, so there's no problem with quality, although unfortunately we can't afford to give the stuff away free. This might explain of course why coffee that is produced in a sufficiently economical manner after services lacks a certain something.

Lest you think we're "fleece the flock ministries", we do follow our main services with a bring and share lunch (which reminds me that I have some focaccia and pizza to make - mental note also for antipasto from Costco) where it's sort of assumed that people bring what they can afford.

Posted by South Coast Kevin (# 16130) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
Not ageist or sexist at all, Karl. Your analysis seems spot on. The fact is, a large proportion (often a majority) of church congregations consist of elderly ladies of that ilk. Even if there are as many men around (unusual) that generation expect that it's the women's job to do the domestic chores.

Catering rotas for the win, I think! For churches that have home groups, put each group on a rota to take turns at running whatever catering your church does at its services. There'll need to be clear instructions, of course, and maybe someone on hand at each service to deal with any problems ('house manager' as our church calls these good people). But give the responsibility for tea and coffee to everyone who's committed to the church.

Posted by Bob Two-Owls (# 9680) on :

I was once asked why the tea tasted so much better when I made it. I replied that I measured the volume of the pot, used proper leaf tea in the correct quantity for the volume of water and emptied it out between brews into a bucket to put on the compost heap. The Dean then said "have you ever thought about branching out into coffee...?".

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :

I well remember the Big Green-and-Cream Enamel Teapot from my first job (I was tea-person, being the juniorest clerk).

It was (occasionally) emptied, but never cleaned - the tea that was made in it would strip paint.....

Ian J.

Posted by Zach82 (# 3208) on :

Stephen Fry told me one isn't supposed to ever wash a tea pot.

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :

Stephen Fry isn't always right. There are people out there who make a hobby of finding mistakes on QI.

Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on :

Karl is sadly spot on about elderly ladies. Sadly, my church mostly consists of elderly ladies, so guess who does our refreshments! Unfortunately our tea is terrible as well but it is at least drinkable (and yes, I also always have tea at Anglican churches, it's safer - unless there's wine on offer which our church does from time to time). Fortunately my tea-obsessed friend has just volunteered to be on the refreshments rota so hopefully things shall improve.

I'm trying very hard not to be envious of churches with home groups and coffee shops but failing somewhat!

Posted by John Holding (# 158) on :

Despite the reference to a MW report in the initial post, this thread is clearly about coffee, not about worship practices. With enormous reluctance, I am therefore sending it upwards to where coffee, well made, belongs -- Heaven.

John Holding
Eccles Host

Posted by kingsfold (# 1726) on :

Though it could be argued that bad Anglican coffee, as described above, belongs in Hell. [Two face]

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :

quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:

quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
Not ageist or sexist at all, Karl. Your analysis seems spot on. The fact is, a large proportion (often a majority) of church congregations consist of elderly ladies of that ilk. Even if there are as many men around (unusual) that generation expect that it's the women's job to do the domestic chores.
Catering rotas for the win, I think! For churches that have home groups, put each group on a rota to take turns at running whatever catering your church does at its services. There'll need to be clear instructions, of course, and maybe someone on hand at each service to deal with any problems ('house manager' as our church calls these good people). But give the responsibility for tea and coffee to everyone who's committed to the church.

We adopted this method a while ago and the effect has been predictable. Those who aren't affiliated to a home group don't do tea and coffee and a number of people with no interest in making tea or coffee make it their life's purpose to make worse tea and coffee than was served last week. Our house manager for such matters moreover is a protagonist of 'church strength' coffee, believing it should be a warm, milky drink.

I'm in favour of proper catering rotas for those who want to make the tea and coffee. It's part of the gift of hospitality, which is less common than the Interpretation of Tongues.

btw, this isn't an Anglican church, not at all.

Posted by Mama Thomas (# 10170) on :

During the operation of a parishioner, her friends and I were in the hospital waiting room. The topic came up: where is the worst coffee, churches or hospital waiting rooms? Everyone agreed it was churches.

I avoid the problem by never, ever, ever having coffee in a church. Or a hospital. Life is too short.

Good tea cannot be found in America outside of (some) private houses, almost all of which have a relative from a commonwealth country who should them how.

Episcopal church tea is usually a tea bag of unknown provenance, lukewarm water and a styrofoam cup-or at best the same mysterious tea bag in a ceramic mug placed in a microwave.

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
is it that most churchgoers are firmly stuck in the 1950s and enjoy their visits to church as a pleasantly nostalgic timewarp?

If they were, they'd be drinking Camp Coffee

Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on :

Camp Coffee is infinitely nicer than actual Anglican coffee!

Posted by Og, King of Bashan (# 9562) on :

Measurements aren't an issue at my place- the woman who runs the nursery drinks coffee throughout the morning, so she has taken on the task of keeping the pots full. Even if you are the coffee hour host, by the time you sneak out after communion to go set up, the coffee is already ready.

The problem is twofold. First, we don't use fresh beans. We buy ground beans in bulk, and they sit in the freezer for months. That is a bad start.

Second, we use a percolator. It's not a myth, boiling water is bad for coffee. I have a small percolator that I use when camping, and even when I brewed a pot of fresh ground Kona coffee in that pot, it ended up tasting like church coffee.

Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :

I've a theory: The bad coffee is intentional on two parts.
It is a community builder. Starts a conversation and gives a common ground. Good coffee you'd drink and leave. Bad coffee you'll stay and talk about.
It is a spiritual aid. It gives you a taste of Hell and helps keep you on the straight an narrow.

Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :

quote:
Originally posted by leo:

quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
is it that most churchgoers are firmly stuck in the 1950s and enjoy their visits to church as a pleasantly nostalgic timewarp?
If they were, they'd be drinking Camp Coffee

Either that, or they'd be drinking more exciting sorts of camp beverages.

Posted by Zach82 (# 3208) on :

We switch to instant lemonade during the summer. [Frown]

Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :

Tsk, tsk, stop being unkind about elderly ladies - they're not all the same.

We don't have a kitchen on-site but nevertheless various means have been found of producing the best that instant can offer.

1. You are asked what strength you like and its NEVER nescafe/MH or similar horrors.

2. The water is at 98 degrees celsius (set on a thermostat) from an urn.

3. Milk - you choose whether whole, semi or skimmed.

4. I don't drink it but am told that the tea is equally good - choice of China or Indian, strength as you like. Made with boiling water from kettle, not just under from urn.

4. Technically free but there is a donations box.

5. Certain people donate coffee/tea/biscuits: donations have notified in advance because we don't have the storage - thus quality control since only those trusted to give decent stuff have donations accepted (offers of "whitener" have been declined). We get cake from time to time - again, excellent, supplied on plates with a fork.

6. The coffee and tea making is presided over by a lovely Dame who brooks no argument and takes no prisoners.

The same iron fist in velvet glove approach is taken with things like parish lunches, supper parties, etc. Last "entertaining" lunch was: charcuterie; poached salmon with salads (no pasta or rice salads in sight, DG) new potatoes, home-made mayonnaise, etc; profiteroles with hot chocolate sauce, raspberry roulade, Eton mess or gooseberry fool - all home-made; cheese (Roquefort, Double Gloucester, ripe Brie & a good goats cheese), biscuits and grapes. It was noted that our diocesan had seconds of mains and thirds of pudding!

Alcohol: an ex-churchwarden has a brother with a vineyard so he takes control of wine; another worshipper has his own micro-brewery...

I think we're pretty well-catered for.

Posted by Firenze (# 619) on :

quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:

Alcohol: an ex-churchwarden has a brother with a vineyard so he takes control of wine; another worshipper has his own micro-brewery...

I think I'm feeling a return to the Faith coming on.

Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on :

quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
...gives a common ground.

Pun intended?
[Biased]

Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :

Of course, the expert on Anglican coffee is Archdeacon Robert, here acting somewhat out of character.

Posted by Sir Kevin (# 3492) on :

My wife is Anglican and her parish has great coffee, properly brewed and served in a ceramic cup. It is good enough to drink black!

Posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe (# 5521) on :

What? You would actually consider putting something in coffee? [Ultra confused]

Posted by Zach82 (# 3208) on :

I like a little coffee with my cream and sugar.

Posted by piglet (# 11803) on :

Filter coffee (or tea or apple juice) and lots of food at our place; I get the feeling that there's a sort of competition among the coffee volunteers as to who can produce the most food ... [Eek!]

Although* I drink lots of Timmy's™ coffee, I'm not really an aficionado, so I don't feel qualified to comment on the quality.

* some would say "because" [Big Grin]

Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:

quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
...gives a common ground.
Pun intended?

Who me?

But you did miss the other one...

Posted by OddJob (# 17591) on :

Is anyone else concerend by the increasingly coffee-centric nature of the Church and society in general?

Mama Thomas hints at little interest in the liquid, but after more than three decades of adult life I genuinely can't see the point of coffee. Water quenches thirst quicker, and alcohol gives greater short-term intoxication.

Even if I, with zero empathy for the scalding liquid, make it for meetings, why do folk return for more??

Posted by Zach82 (# 3208) on :

Those of us that fasted before the service need to stave off the caffeine withdrawal shakes somehow.

Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :

quote:
Originally posted by OddJob:

Mama Thomas hints at little interest in the liquid, but after more than three decades of adult life I genuinely can't see the point of coffee.

Isn't it to distinguish ourselves from the Mormons?

Posted by Patdys (# 9397) on :

Coffee is a metaphor for the church.

All righteous people worship the bean.
We will tolerate you agnostics or atheists because you are our mission.
But you tepid, torpid Decaf drinkers; you will be cast out with the watered down cordial drinkers, where none shall return.
(Admittedly by choice).

But the true bean worshippers come in many flavours.

The purist; dark strong and rich, savoured by few, enjoyed by less and sneering at the rest.

The flavoured cappucino, appealing to the masses, the new to worship and the less discerning. Superfically wonderful but with no depth
.
And everything in between.

And as a true worshipper of the bean, we know in our hearts, that our worship is the true worship and all others but a pale imitation.

And tea drinkers...

Nick off you perverters of the faith.

Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :

Coffee up to standard today and CAKE [Genoa, Coffee & Walnut or plain Madeira) [Smile]

Posted by Meerkat (# 16117) on :

Ours this morning was as putrid as usual, as was the tea. The orange juice was OK, It was Family Service without Communion and we had a good turnout... 29 adults and 15 little darlings (plus one little monster!).

Posted by Spiffy (# 5267) on :

quote:
Originally posted by OddJob:
Is anyone else concerend by the increasingly coffee-centric nature of the Church and society in general?

Mama Thomas hints at little interest in the liquid, but after more than three decades of adult life I genuinely can't see the point of coffee. Water quenches thirst quicker, and alcohol gives greater short-term intoxication.

Even if I, with zero empathy for the scalding liquid, make it for meetings, why do folk return for more??

Is not coffee a social beverage? Is it not the coffeehouses of Europe that kept getting shut down by rulers worrying they were hotbeds of dissent? Is it not easier to start a conversation with someone you fancy with "How about we get coffee sometimes" because if you say, "How about we get a drink sometime" there's the spectre of intoxication and poor decision making?

Is it really a surprise in a culture where we seem to be losing our sense of connectiveness and with stagnating opportunities for class advancement we seek out something that is (currently not historically) by its nature a beverage of the working classes?

Posted by mrs whibley (# 4798) on :

Our new usual place has reasonable coffee; cafetieres on rotation, like my old place. Today I overslept and so went to our sister parish up the road instead. Now I know why the celebrant usually grabs a coffee after the first service, even if it makes him a little late for the second one! It wasn't just instant, it was dire instant - I drink fair trade instant coffee at work and this was horrible.
I feel an outreach team coming on, or some kind of Intervention!

Posted by PD (# 12436) on :

I brew the coffee in our shack, so it tends to be fairly strong. A pot of hot water is thoughtfully provided for the wuss element who cannot take their coffee at 'levitate a Swede' strength. I have yet to introduce them to proper tea.

I am pleased to note that my mild form of Anglo-Catholicism has also encouraged the appearence of alcohol on major feasts. Things are looking up!

PD

Posted by busyknitter (# 2501) on :

The coffee at our place is pretty grim and Doing Something About It is on my todo list, should I ever be put in a position of authority/influence over such matters (highly unlikely).

But I think it is a symptom of a wider malaise across UK society. My work involves going to meet clients in lots of different offices. I am invariably offered a hot drink the moment I step across the threshold. I have learned to always ask for tea.

Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :

Fundraising concert last evening so interval drinks ...

Wine sourced, as usual, through vineyard-owning warden's brother.

Otherwise soft drinks: sparkling elderflower, still elderflower, lime cordial, sparkling water, fresh apple juice from farm down the lane - you could make any combination you chose from that lot.

Nothing left so it must have been good.

Posted by Heavenly Anarchist (# 13313) on :

We have a coffee rota, mostly women of a variety of ages, a few men.(We use the home group idea with our stewarding and welcome instead.)
Coffee is filter, no idea what, and the tea is fair trade, presumably teadirect. We also have individual tea bags available if people want twinings earl grey or fruit/herbal, and decaf instant. Squash and water is available. We have very nice biscuits in little packets of two, the chocolate orange cookies are very good and you have to fight away the children to get them. Cakes occasionally appear at random and I suspect some of the coffee teams just like to bring cakes.
In the summer we only have one morning service and then a church picnic after coffee, which we have inside church if it is raining.

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :

quote:
Originally posted by busyknitter:
The coffee at our place is pretty grim and Doing Something About It is on my todo list, should I ever be put in a position of authority/influence over such matters (highly unlikely).

But I think it is a symptom of a wider malaise across UK society. My work involves going to meet clients in lots of different offices. I am invariably offered a hot drink the moment I step across the threshold. I have learned to always ask for tea.

Indeed, as is evidenced by l'Organist talking about "the best instant has to offer".

Unfortunately, the best instant has to offer is still appallingly bad.

Posted by Fuzzipeg (# 10107) on :

Mrs Fuzzipeg is an Anglican and gave me the following advice years ago.....which I ignored at first and then discovered it was right....

"At an Anglican function always have the tea, never have the coffee because bad tea is never as bad as bad coffee."

Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :

quote:
Fuzzipeg: "At an Anglican function always have the tea, never have the coffee because bad tea is never as bad as bad coffee."

I think the Anglican church should take this up as their motto [Smile]

Posted by vw man (# 13951) on :

as long as it is fairtrade I dont mind at the church I attend most of the time it is instant but real coffee when we have meals

Posted by Og, King of Bashan (# 9562) on :

quote:
Originally posted by busyknitter:
The coffee at our place is pretty grim and Doing Something About It is on my todo list, should I ever be put in a position of authority/influence over such matters (highly unlikely).

I've always been under the impression that all you had to do to be put in charge of something was complain about it- in my experience, saying "we should do x" is a sure-fire way to be volunteered to take charge of doing x (and rightfully so.) Which is why I try not to complain about anything at my church.

Posted by scuffleball (# 16480) on :

Because, as I am quickly discovering, coffee machines take looking after. Either you can buy an industrial machine for upwards of £1000, or rent it, or you can get a domestic machine not accustomed to making upwards of 30 cups a day and expect it to break down every year or so. And even then you have to dismantle it every week to clean it and descale it, say, every month.

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :

quote:
Originally posted by scuffleball:
Because, as I am quickly discovering, coffee machines take looking after. Either you can buy an industrial machine for upwards of £1000, or rent it, or you can get a domestic machine not accustomed to making upwards of 30 cups a day and expect it to break down every year or so. And even then you have to dismantle it every week to clean it and descale it, say, every month.

Pssssst - Cafetieres. Big ones.

Posted by ExclamationMark (# 14715) on :

quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Alcohol: an ex-churchwarden has a brother with a vineyard so he takes control of wine; another worshipper has his own micro-brewery...

I think we're pretty well-catered for.

How do you square having alcohol with the possible presence of those for whom such beverages are a life threatening temptation?

Posted by ExclamationMark (# 14715) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Heavenly Anarchist:
Coffee is filter, no idea what, and the tea is fair trade, presumably teadirect.

Real filter coffee here - with cream if required. No complaints even if I don't one brought through to me (I'm often still in church talking to people).

Posted by Vulpior (# 12744) on :

Coffee from big cafetieres is served at our place, along with tea. Cafetiere is my fallback from espresso coffee; there is no instant in the house and we don't ever use the coffee in hotels.

I wouldn't expect a church to go to the expense of installing and maintaining a machine, though. You also can't get them out fast enough.

Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :

quote:
posted by Exclamation mark
How do you square having alcohol with the possible presence of those for whom such beverages are a life threatening temptation?

The same way you would at home: there are always other drinks available - no one is forced to imbibe alcohol.

Posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe (# 5521) on :

quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
How do you square having alcohol with the possible presence of those for whom such beverages are a life threatening temptation?

The same as you do for sugar, or peanuts, or chocolate, or wheat, or . . . .

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
Real filter coffee here - with cream if required. No complaints even if I don't one brought through to me (I'm often still in church talking to people).

I'm coming to your church! [Smile]

Ours is the usual instant sludge (tho' it is Fair Trade).

Posted by ExclamationMark (# 14715) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:

quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
Real filter coffee here - with cream if required. No complaints even if I don't one brought through to me (I'm often still in church talking to people).
I'm coming to your church! Ours is the usual instant sludge (tho' it is Fair Trade).

It's the same brand as a noted local hotel uses. The tea's not bad either - we're not as yet Fair Trade though on the basis that those who buy the coffee and stuff can't find anything good enough.

Posted by ExclamationMark (# 14715) on :

quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:

quote:
posted by Exclamation mark
How do you square having alcohol with the possible presence of those for whom such beverages are a life threatening temptation?
The same way you would at home: there are always other drinks available - no one is forced to imbibe alcohol.

No but you are putting temptation in their way in a place where it's all about holiness

Posted by ExclamationMark (# 14715) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
[QUOTE]The same as you do for sugar, or peanuts, or chocolate, or wheat, or . . . .

None of those, to my knowledge, has the potential to exert the same pyschological hold on its victims as does alcohol.

Isn't it more counter cultural for a church to eschew alcohol?

Posted by ExclamationMark (# 14715) on :

quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:

quote:
posted by Exclamation mark
How do you square having alcohol with the possible presence of those for whom such beverages are a life threatening temptation?
The same way you would at home: there are always other drinks available - no one is forced to imbibe alcohol.

Thinking this through a bit more - if I knew that someone coming to my home had an alcohol or other dependency, I'd not put any on show (not that I have any tbh).

Posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe (# 5521) on :

quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:

quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:

quote:
The same as you do for sugar, or peanuts, or chocolate, or wheat, or . . . .
None of those, to my knowledge, has the potential to exert the same pyschological hold on its victims as does alcohol.

Maybe not psychological, but certainly physical: sugar to a diabetic, peanuts to one allergic to same, etc.

Posted by PD (# 12436) on :

quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:

quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
[QUOTE]The same as you do for sugar, or peanuts, or chocolate, or wheat, or . . . .
None of those, to my knowledge, has the potential to exert the same pyschological hold on its victims as does alcohol.

Isn't it more counter cultural for a church to eschew alcohol?

The general reaction I have had from the recovering alcoholics in the parish when I have asked them what they think we should do is that they are horrified that anyone should think they are so weak that they cannot pass up a glass of wine.

I actually think think in this age of puritans and lushes that it is more counter-cultural to teach the proper and responsible use of a glass of booze than to ban it or over indulge. However - that's me, and I never have been noted for following the popular opinion!

PD

Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :

quote:
Originally posted by PD:
I actually think think in this age of puritans and lushes that it is more counter-cultural to teach the proper and responsible use of a glass of booze than to ban it or over indulge. However - that's me, and I never have been noted for following the popular opinion!

PD

I drink, but randomly. Freaks people the hell out, they know not how to deal with this.

[ 15. May 2013, 16:59: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]

Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :

I do that too--and you're right, it totally freaks them out. (memories of last week with family come to mind)

Posted by PD (# 12436) on :

Any sort of mid-to-late evening alcohol consumption tends to make me sluggish and a bit testy the next morning. Therefore, I will have a couple of beers if I am not expecting to work the next morning. I occasionally have a beer or a glass of wine with dinner, but not often as I like to work for an hour or so after dinner to atone for my rather lengthy lunch hours.

My wife is utterly random. She will have a drink or two on a couple or three evenings a week for three or four months solid, then not touch booze for two or three months.

PD

[ 16. May 2013, 05:34: Message edited by: PD ]

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