Thread: Happy 200th birthday, Richard Wagner! Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.


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Posted by Adeodatus (# 4992) on :
 
In only a few days (22 May) it will be Richard Wagner’s 200th birthday. So here’s a thread for the man who’s been called ‘the most controversial composer of all time’. Not only a composer, but a conductor, producer, designer, music theorist, genius, monster, adulterer, anti-semite, borrower and cheat.

For myself, I’ll always be grateful to BBC2 for those ten Sunday evenings in the winter of 1982-3 when they screened the Ring Cycle, one act per week – the Chereau/Boulez Bayreuth production first staged in 1976. I was enchanted for life.

What are your Wagner thoughts, rantings, musings, or stories?
 
Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on :
 
He's my favorite composer, and I desperately want to see the entire 'Ring,' preferably four evenings in a row, before I die. So far I've only seen 'Das Rheingold.' I've taken two courses where we read, discussed, and listened to the whole thing scene by scene.

The Arizona Opera is doing 'Der fliegende Holländer' next season -- they just did it a few years ago, and haven't done any other Wagner in that time. I really wish they'd do something else.

When I lived in New York and going to the Met whenever I could scrape up the money, I was thrilled to have seen 'Parsifal' twice -- once with Jon Vickers! -- 'Lohengrin,' 'Der fliegende Holländer,' as well as 'Das Rheingold' mentioned above. I really want to see 'Die Meistersinger' some time, and also 'Tristan.'
 
Posted by Og, King of Bashan (# 9562) on :
 
Last Spring, inspired by an interview with a singer from the Met who said that he used to listen to the Toll House broadcast while cross-country skiing, I uploaded "Das Rheingold" to my iPod and listened to it while doing some downhill skiing. It was an awesome morning. Sometimes you really need to be inspired to point your core down that steep bumpy slope, and there's nothing like a Wagnerian major fifth on the brass (bum bum! bum bum, bum bum!) to psych you into it.
 
Posted by Sir Kevin (# 3492) on :
 
I guess that explains why the satellite radio in my car keeps playing Wagner's operas and occasional art songs on the Metropolitan Opera Channel!
 
Posted by basso (# 4228) on :
 
I used to be a pretty passionate Wagnerian - a couple of Ring cycles here in SF, a trip to Seattle for a Ring up there, and Meistersinger was for years my favorite opera. I've mellowed some; now Boheme probably takes the prize.

I had to give up my season seat to the SF Opera years ago, and never picked it up again. But I'll certainly raise a cup of something to Richard on the day, for old times' sake. Lots of happy memories.
 
Posted by PD (# 12436) on :
 
I have a deep and convoluted relationship with Wagner's music going back to my teens. To this day I have never tired of the Ring Cycle, and my wife has learned that certain states of mind result in a 16 hour Ring Cycle bender! At least she no longer mentions d-i-v-o-r-c-e when those moods strike.

I guess Wagner appeals to my Viking side - the element in my character that loves to sail in rough weather and is exilarated by a storm at sea. I cannot think how else to describe it. I have an odd feeling that if I was not a Christian I would not be an atheist or agnostic, but I would have an odd feeling that the Nibelungenleid has something deep to say about humanity. Somehow, the final destruction of Valhalla has a deep resonance for me.

The Grail legends - Lohengrin, Parsifal, and by a roundabout route - Tristan and Isolde also resonate with me, but on the Irish side.

PD
 
Posted by la vie en rouge (# 10688) on :
 
My most recent Wagnerian experience has been playing him in the orchestra (see the musicians thread). He is Bloody Difficult™ [Biased]

Even professional musicians find Wagner hard (my teacher had (a) been flipping through the scores that I was working on and (b) been playing in an orchestra that he was a bit fed up with because 60% of the rehearsal was made up of the violins sight-reading their parts; his comment: "It was only Mozart, it wasn't Wagner") so for your average amateur, 'tis a bit of a challenge.

I think we were all pretty happy with the result but a lot of blood, sweat and tears were involved. I was the solitary cellist who actually played all the notes (the others cheated by playing the doubled notes only once and then fudging that hideous passage of triplets) and it took me hours and hours of practise. I now a have a new-found respect for those orchestras that accompany the whole six-hour shebang (how the hell long does that take to learn?) [Eek!]
 
Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :
 
Always thought I couldn't stand Wagner from the btis and pieces I'd heard but thought I ought to give him a chance so off to see my first full Wagner opera in a couple of weeks- Lohengrin (WNO happen to be doing it nearby). Any suggestions as to how to get the most out of it? (I go to the opera quite a lot, but never to Wagner before.)
 
Posted by Adeodatus (# 4992) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
Always thought I couldn't stand Wagner from the btis and pieces I'd heard but thought I ought to give him a chance so off to see my first full Wagner opera in a couple of weeks- Lohengrin (WNO happen to be doing it nearby). Any suggestions as to how to get the most out of it? (I go to the opera quite a lot, but never to Wagner before.)
Oo, I've seen that one advertised. Reviews when you've seen it, please!

Lohengrin is "middle Wagner" - between "early Wagner" (which never gets played) and "late Wagner" which is the heavy stuff that Wagnerholics never shut up about. It's solid rumty-tum German Romantic stuff - imagine a sort of nuclear powered Schumann - with lots of brass and choral bits. Brush up a bit on the plot - there are lots of reviews and synopses online. If you can get a highlights disc or do some web searching, listen to a few snippets - Act 1 prelude; Act 1 finale; the wedding procession from Act 2; Act 3 prelude and the "here comes the bride" bit; and Lohengrin's big number fom Act 3, "In fernem Land". Then just go, suspend your disbelief, and allow yourself to have magic worked on you.

[ETA: I could say check a certain person's blog for a write-up, but I won't. [Biased] (Hosts, I hope that didn't break any rules, did it?)]

[ 17. May 2013, 09:22: Message edited by: Adeodatus ]
 
Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :
 
Thanks, adeodatus, for this very comprehensive advice, and I will report back. I like the sound of 'nuclear-powered Schumann'
 
Posted by ArachnidinElmet (# 17346) on :
 
FYI, Antonio Pappano Guide to the Ring Cycle on BBC4 tonight. Too late for the first showing at 7.30 (sorry, just found this thread), but there's a repeat in the wee small hours.
 
Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by ArachnidinElmet:
FYI, Antonio Pappano Guide to the Ring Cycle on BBC4 tonight. Too late for the first showing at 7.30 (sorry, just found this thread), but there's a repeat in the wee small hours.
The only analysis of the Ring Cycle worth listening to is that by Joyce Grenfell.

There are times when I think Wagner's music is not worth listening to and then I hear the first 5 minutes or so of Parsifal, or the middle section of Siegfried and realise again just how very good he is. Overall, it's not a style I like, but his craftsmanship is first rate.
 
Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :
 
Wagner has been called a Marmite composer. Either you love him or you hate him. But for me, I just find him Quite Interesting.

In the closing down sale at HMV Croydon I picked up the Barenboim complete (ie post Dutchman) Wagner operas for less at a ludicrous price.

This says a lot about about me, but I find the opening and closing acts of Parsifal thrilling (they are about liturgy) and the middle act a great bore (it's about being vamped by silly women - I'd just tell them to bog off).

I prefer Verdi.
 
Posted by comet (# 10353) on :
 
I originally read the thread title as "Robert Wagner" and thought, dayam! He looks good for his age!
 
Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :
 
We're lucky enough to have the full Solti Ring Cycle recordings.

Parsifal is not so much about liturgy, but about redemption. Both Kundry and Amfortas are redeemed (saved, if you like) by grace exercised through Parsifal, the holy fool or simple youth ruled by compassion. It is an intensely Christian work, with Kundry enslaved by her sin of laughing at Christ's agony on the Cross but ultimately being baptised; Klingsor and his power being overthrown when Parsifal makes the sign of the cross with the Holy Lance, Amfortas healed of both his physical wound and fall by the touch of the same Lance.
 
Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :
 
I didn't say Parsifal was about liturgy. (There's a theory that the Act 1 ceremonies illustrate how the Grail Knights are spiritually bankrupt and dependent. The recent English National Opera prod ended with Kundry and Parsifal walking out on the knights, leaving them to their rites.) I meant that is what would press my button.

Despite its wealth of Christian imagery and symbolism, I very much doubt that it is profoundly Christian. If anything it might be Buddhist with all that stuff about self denial.
 
Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :
 
Sorry Venbede , I must have misread your last paragraph. If by self-denial you mean denial of self, I see that, too, as Christian. The imitation of Christ is not to copy, but to seek to take on His will as ours. St Francis did this better than most are able, and was blessed with the stigmata.
 
Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :
 
Of course there's Christian self denial. Whoever would find their life must lose it. But Wagner and Schopenhauer seemed to think you must lose your life, full stop, either in religion (Parsifal) or sex (Tristan). More Buddhist than Christian.
 
Posted by Adeodatus (# 4992) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
quote:
Originally posted by ArachnidinElmet:
FYI, Antonio Pappano Guide to the Ring Cycle on BBC4 tonight. Too late for the first showing at 7.30 (sorry, just found this thread), but there's a repeat in the wee small hours.
The only analysis of the Ring Cycle worth listening to is that by Joyce Grenfell.
Might you mean the analysis of the Ring by Anna Russell? Magnificent!

I caught a bit of the Pappano programme. I like him - opera makes him happy and it's infectious. I don't so much like the production he was talking about - I think the design was overworked and messy. And I'm not a fan of Deborah Voigt, who played Brunnhilde. My own favourite Ring Cycle, of those I've seen (on dvd), is the one produced by Harry Kupfer and conducted by Daniel Barenboim from Bayreuth. I wish it has been possible to film Wieland Wagner's productions from the 1950s.
 
Posted by Adeodatus (# 4992) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
... And I'm not a fan of Deborah Voigt, who played Brunnhilde ...
Oops. I've just found out it was Susan Bullock. [Hot and Hormonal]

Didn't like her either.
 
Posted by jedijudy (# 333) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
Might you mean the analysis of the Ring by Anna Russell? Magnificent!
[Killing me]
Thank you for that, Adeodatus! It brought back happy memories of hearing Anna Russell's analysis many times over my lifetime. The first time I was a kid, and I couldn't believe an adult would say things like that about an opera. ('An Opera' should be said in a deep, serious voice.)

She was the one who gave me the impetus to borrow Wagner from the library. The one recording there had a variety of selections from Wagner's operas, none with any actual singing. But I loved the music.
 
Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :
 
Yes, I did. Should not write posts when I'm working. My fault. And I'm not making this up, you know.
 
Posted by ArachnidinElmet (# 17346) on :
 
In-depth discussion of Wagner always makes me think of a library book I once found called Penetrating Wagner's Ring [Snigger]

Apologies for lowering the tone.
 
Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :
 
,,,alternatively, try Wagner and the Erotic Impulse by Laurence Dreyfus

All sorts of interesting stuff, including RW's fondness for cross-dressing... [Biased]
 
Posted by Kaplan Corday (# 16119) on :
 
At the age of thirteen (just one year older than the age at which Hitler first heard and, according to Mein Kampf, became "addicted" to him) C.S. Lewis wrote of Wagner: "He has not been, nor ever will be, appreciated by the mass: there are some brains incapable of appreciation of the beautiful except when it is embodied in a sort of lyric prettiness".

Mark Twain's opinion of Wagner's music was more succinct; "It is not as bad as it sounds".
 
Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on :
 
When I was in college many years ago, a friend predicted that when the End of the World came, the credits in the clouds would read "Written, produced, and directed by God... music by Wagner."
 
Posted by Adeodatus (# 4992) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
When I was in college many years ago, a friend predicted that when the End of the World came, the credits in the clouds would read "Written, produced, and directed by God... music by Wagner."
Well nobody does it better. (I must have listened to this dozens, if not hundreds, of times - and I still get goosebumps when the Valhalla theme comes in - about 4.46 in the clip.)

I've a friend who's into stage design and in the course of a conversation once, I showed him the beginning of the Barenboim/Kupfer Ring for the cool laser effects. He'd never heard any Wagner before, apart from what everybody's heard. A couple of minutes in, he was looking shocked, stunned and a bit scared. "Um ... good stage effects?" I hazarded.

"Not the effects ..." he half-whispered, "The music!"
 
Posted by fletcher christian (# 13919) on :
 
Just finished the Met's new production on DVD. I have to say I really like it. I can see why it came in for such terrible criticism: they were expecting something new and flashy, but in keeping with the Met 'tradition' on Wagner's Ring cycle they produced a fairly straight-forward rendering. In fact, I'd go so far as to say they followed stage instructions as far as they could....apart from that silly rocking horse on wheels at the end; that did not work at all. I loved 'the machine', Terfel blossoms as the wander but is otherwise a little lack lustre, Seigfried is great as a last minute stand in and even manages to get through that sword banging episode without too much error, Voight is a typical diva trying to hog the limelight all the time, but she is good, but Sigmunde was a revelation. And to hear that he was giving up opera after the cycle! What a loss!

The only thing I didn't like at all, which is the Met's way of doing things judging from the 80's production, is the lack of depth given to Mime. Every other production I've seen manages to give him depth and conflicting motivations as a kind of anti-hero of the entire piece, but the Met always plays him as a bit of a pathetic two dimensional character.
 
Posted by Adeodatus (# 4992) on :
 
I've wondered what the new Met production was like, fletcher. I didn't think much to Terfel's Wotan when he did it at Covent Garden a couple of years ago, but he was hampered then by a messy looking production. The Met production looks great though - I suspected it might turn out as you describe, a new-looking way of doing what's actually a rather traditional production. (It's technically inaccurate to say that according to the Met, there's been no new opera since Turandot ... but it's not that far off the truth.)

But ... but ... Siegmund giving up opera? Wasn't Siegmund played by Jonas Kaufmann? I hadn't heard anything - he's one of the best in the business.
 
Posted by fletcher christian (# 13919) on :
 
Yes - an incredible wagnerian singer. He was totally effortless. A really terrible loss.
 
Posted by Adeodatus (# 4992) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
Yes - an incredible wagnerian singer. He was totally effortless. A really terrible loss.
Heldentenors of that quality shouldn't be allowed to retire. They've got a public duty.

quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
This says a lot about about me, but I find the opening and closing acts of Parsifal thrilling (they are about liturgy) and the middle act a great bore (it's about being vamped by silly women - I'd just tell them to bog off).
I used to be like that with Parsifal. The liturgical bits were good. Especially when the temple bells were done well. But then I heard a really good soprano (I forget who now) sing the passage from Act 2 that starts "Ich sah' das Kind..." (I saw the child). And I thought, you cow! She's not vamping Parsifal, she's trying to guilt-trip him about his mother's death. And she tugs every heart-string she can, all to this gorgeous, sinuous melody, leading up to her devastating, "The mother [pause] died!" These days, that's my favourite bit of my favourite opera.
 
Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
]Might you mean the analysis of the Ring by Anna Russell?
Well that was ten minutes during which I got no work done
[Yipee]
 
Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 
Oh there's another part... make that twenty.
 
Posted by jedijudy (# 333) on :
 
There are three parts! Make it 28 minutes!
 
Posted by PD (# 12436) on :
 
I have to admit that when we were going through a particularly unfortunate phase with the Good Friday observances in my home parish I just used to stay home and listen to 'Parsifal' followed by the Bach 'St Jon Passion.'

PD
 
Posted by Adeodatus (# 4992) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by PD:
I have to admit that when we were going through a particularly unfortunate phase with the Good Friday observances in my home parish I just used to stay home and listen to 'Parsifal' followed by the Bach 'St Jon Passion.'

PD
I'm more a St Matthew man myself, but don't you find it's such a trial fitting the churchy stuff in around Parsifal and a Bach Passion?
 
Posted by Sir Kevin (# 3492) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by PD:
Tristan and Isolde also resonate with me, but on the Irish side.

PD
I heard a 1938 performance of that on satellite radio on the way home from work yesterday: fascinating, but flawed recording - sounded like an old phonograph record!
 
Posted by Adeodatus (# 4992) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
And I'm not making this up, you know.
I just noticed this! My own favourite line of Anna Russell's is when she gets round to describing Gutrune - "she's the first woman [Siegfried's] ever met who isn't his aunt."

Sir Kevin - have you any idea of the details of that 1938 performance? My own favourite Tristan und Isolde is the one with Kirsten Flagstad and Leonard Suthaus from 1952. Glorious performance.
 
Posted by PD (# 12436) on :
 
Kirsten Flagstad used to drink a bottle of Guinness between acts when singing Isolde to keep her strength up! I got very familiar with the 1952 recording twenty-odd years ago at college as it was the version in the music library.

The other favourite from college days is the Solti Ring cycle, which on average is still a very strong recording. I do not recall too any tempo problems with his recording as there tends to be a bit of a battle between what Wagner wanted and the Richter/Cosima Wagner performing tradition.

PD

[ 22. May 2013, 03:52: Message edited by: PD ]
 
Posted by Adeodatus (# 4992) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by PD:
... there tends to be a bit of a battle between what Wagner wanted and the Richter/Cosima Wagner performing tradition.

PD
Cosima did slow things down, didn't she? Perhaps someone should have told her that opera-goers don't pay for their seats by the hour.

Anyhoo, Happy Birthday Richard Wagner, the musician most likely to make me go [Yipee] !
 
Posted by IceQueen (# 8170) on :
 
Not contributing to the serious discussion, but this seems appropriate for the day (YouTube video, NOT worksafe as it starts to play all on its own):

Happy birthday Wagner!
 
Posted by Sir Kevin (# 3492) on :
 
Just heard Placido Domingo in Loehengren, from twenty years ago: a fantastic performance.
 
Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by IceQueen:
Not contributing to the serious discussion, but this seems appropriate for the day (YouTube video, NOT worksafe as it starts to play all on its own):

Happy birthday Wagner!
Wonderful - thanks for sharing!
[Big Grin]
 
Posted by Quinquireme (# 17384) on :
 
I've been a fan since a nerdy teenager listening to live Ring performances from Bayreuth on BBC radio on a Sunday afternoon; and having seen cycles at ROH and ENO (latter with Reggie conducting). Going to Götterdämmerung in the Proms in June with my sister who is also a Ring devotee (having seen it all in Vienna). I managed to get off ebay the complete Ring on CD with Knappertsbusch live from Bayreuth in 1956, and Tristan from 1950. Great performances, and good sound. Does anyone else agree that Gottlob Frick as Hagen is the embodiment of pure evil? "Hier sitz' ich zur wach..."
 
Posted by Quinquireme (# 17384) on :
 
oh yes, and aren't you sick to death of hearing the Ride of the Valkyries any time anyone mentions him, as if he never wrote anything else?
 
Posted by Quinquireme (# 17384) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Og, King of Bashan:
Last Spring, inspired by an interview with a singer from the Met who said that he used to listen to the Toll House broadcast while cross-country skiing, I uploaded "Das Rheingold" to my iPod and listened to it while doing some downhill skiing. It was an awesome morning. Sometimes you really need to be inspired to point your core down that steep bumpy slope, and there's nothing like a Wagnerian major fifth on the brass (bum bum! bum bum, bum bum!) to psych you into it.
sorry, but someone has got to mention that there is no such thing as a major fifth; they are either perfect, augmented or diminished! I am known widely as a pedant...
 
Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Quinquireme:
oh yes, and aren't you sick to death of hearing the Ride of the Valkyries any time anyone mentions him, as if he never wrote anything else?
No, cos I listen to Radio 3 a lot, where they tend to play the boring bits of Parsifal.
 
Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Quinquireme:
oh yes, and aren't you sick to death of hearing the Ride of the Valkyries any time anyone mentions him, as if he never wrote anything else?
No, cos I listen to Radio 3 a lot, where they tend to play the boring bits of Parsifal.
 
Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
Mark Twain's opinion of Wagner's music was more succinct; "It is not as bad as it sounds".
They just mentioned that quote on WGBH Boston -- it actually was Mark Twain quoting Edgar Wilson "Bill" Nye.

But, while checking that, I discovered that if anyone has 24 hours and 16 minutes to spare, they can listen to the entire Ring here.
 
Posted by Adeodatus (# 4992) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by Quinquireme:
oh yes, and aren't you sick to death of hearing the Ride of the Valkyries any time anyone mentions him, as if he never wrote anything else?
No, cos I listen to Radio 3 a lot, where they tend to play the boring bits of Parsifal.
And ken's real joke, of course, is that there are no boring bits of Parsifal.

quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
But, while checking that, I discovered that if anyone has 24 hours and 16 minutes to spare, they can listen to the entire Ring here.
24 hours? You don't mean they include ... intervals, do you?

Lightweights!

quote:
Originally posted by Qinquireme:
Does anyone else agree that Gottlob Frick as Hagen is the embodiment of pure evil?
Oh yes. Although Matti Salminen does a pretty darned good job, too. As he also does playing Good Guy Gurnemanz.

[ 23. May 2013, 06:51: Message edited by: Adeodatus ]
 
Posted by Quinquireme (# 17384) on :
 
Interesting discussion on the radio the other night about Wagner and anti-semitism; I've never paid much heed to all that stuff. After all, why then did he write an opera called "Cohen Grin"? Or "Das RheinGoldschmidt"? And what about the Siegfried Yidyll?
 
Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 
I listened to the last half-hour or so of Gotterdammerung the other day. Starting at the point where Siegfried has been mortally wounded and suddenly seems to realise what is actually going on for the first time, and the music changes and he sings about Brunnhilde. Wonderful! Its all in the chords! Music probably isn't really an "international language" as the old cliche has it, but Wagner made a musical language to tell his story and the first three operas teach it to the listener. In the last one you hear what is meant in the harmonies you have learned.
 
Posted by Fr Weber (# 13472) on :
 
Well, sure--that's the whole point of the leitmotiv, right?
 
Posted by Adeodatus (# 4992) on :
 
I don't think ken was talking about the leitmotifs as such - more about such things as we hand-wavingly refer to as the orchestral "colour". It's true, we're not supposed to think of music as a universal language these days, but the quality of Wagner's writing in his last four operas in particular makes you wonder. And Götterdämmerung does stand rather apart from the first three Ring operas. In part, it's the story Wagner's been wanting to tell since he started the whole project. But it's also the story he had to give a new ending to, if it was going to be artistically true. These factors alone, even before you start talking about how darned good the tunes are, tell us just how much of his creativity Wagner put into this one. It's only as I've been studying Wagner this year that I've begun to see just how great Götterdämmerung is.
quote:
Originally posted by Quinquireme:
Interesting discussion on the radio the other night about Wagner and anti-semitism; I've never paid much heed to all that stuff. After all, why then did he write an opera called "Cohen Grin"? Or "Das RheinGoldschmidt"? And what about the Siegfried Yidyll?
It's become fashionable to take one of two extreme stances on Wagner's antisemitism these days: either explain it to the point of explaining it away altogether; or say that he was personally responsible for every knuckle-dragging swastika-tattooed thug in the world today.

Me, I tend to take the more balanced view that Wagner was a bastard, plain and simple. Sometimes he was a bastard to his friends, sometimes he was a bastard to his enemies, and sometimes he was a bastard to people he just felt like being a bastard to. On the question of his antisemitism, he seemed to go out of his way to make sure the world would remember he was a bastard. And it does.

[ 27. May 2013, 11:53: Message edited by: Adeodatus ]
 
Posted by Quinquireme (# 17384) on :
 
Nice to know my jokes are appreciated
 
Posted by Adeodatus (# 4992) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Quinquireme:
Nice to know my jokes are appreciated
Appreciated? Yes. An opportunity to call Wagner a bastard for being an antisemite? Also yes. [Big Grin]
 
Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
I don't think ken was talking about the leitmotifs as such - more about such things as we hand-wavingly refer to as the orchestral "colour".
Yes. The orchestration, the chords, the choice of instruments, it all changes gear when Siegfried sings "Brunnhilde, heilige braut!" (excuse my non-existent German if that's not how its spelt) If you had never heard or seen the Ring before, and you didn't know the story (which, to be honest, is unlikely) I think it is at that point that anyone listening must finally give up any illusion of a coventional happy ending. That chord just tells us that its all about to get very messy indeed. Then after that all the old by-now familiar leitmotifs come out of the woodwork in ones and twos, all joimng the colours like soldiers called back from the reserves, forming up to take their places in the last scene.

(This paragraph is brought to you by the Department of Gushing Reviews and Mr Mixed Metaphor)
 
Posted by Stetson (# 9597) on :
 
quote:
It's become fashionable to take one of two extreme stances on Wagner's antisemitism these days: either explain it to the point of explaining it away altogether; or say that he was personally responsible for every knuckle-dragging swastika-tattooed thug in the world today.

I have to say, I'm amazed that this thread went so long without any significant godwinning.

I don't know much about Wagner, but I do recall reading in a pretty credible source(I think either the NYT or the Economist) that, contra what you might expect, under the Nazis public productions of Wagner actually nosedived. They apparently did not do much to promote him to the public at all.

The article didn't go into the reasons for this. I'm not sure if it's because they thought Wagner per se was bad for people to hear, or maybe they just weren't interested in promoting opera generally.

[ 28. May 2013, 16:50: Message edited by: Stetson ]
 
Posted by Adeodatus (# 4992) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
quote:
It's become fashionable to take one of two extreme stances on Wagner's antisemitism these days: either explain it to the point of explaining it away altogether; or say that he was personally responsible for every knuckle-dragging swastika-tattooed thug in the world today.

I have to say, I'm amazed that this thread went so long without any significant godwinning.

I don't know much about Wagner, but I do recall reading in a pretty credible source(I think either the NYT or the Economist) that, contra what you might expect, under the Nazis public productions of Wagner actually nosedived. They apparently did not do much to promote him to the public at all.

The article didn't go into the reasons for this. I'm not sure if it's because they thought Wagner per se was bad for people to hear, or maybe they just weren't interested in promoting opera generally.
The report you read was correct. I believed performances dropped by about a third after the Nazis came to power. Some of the operas were regarded with suspicion, and Parsifal was finally banned (in 1943 iirc) because it was "decadent". Or, as someone - I forget who - once put it, Parsifal is about compassion and self-renunciation, so as soon as the Nazis realised what it was about, they banned it.

Really, among the Nazi government, it was only Hitler himself who was a fan of Wagner, and he seems mainly to have liked the noise the music makes. There's no evidence that Wagner's antisemitism inspired Hitler's. Vicious antisemite though Wagner was, if you want to identify the real Nazi of the clan it was his daughter-in-law Winifred, who courted Hitler's favour, became his close friend, and condemned her entire family to several generations of guilt by association.
 
Posted by Dafyd (# 5549) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
Really, among the Nazi government, it was only Hitler himself who was a fan of Wagner, and he seems mainly to have liked the noise the music makes.
According to The Rest is Noise by Alex Ross, Hitler said he first fell in love with Wagner at the Vienna opera house. Comparisons have been made between Hitler's gestures while speaking and the distinctive conducting style of the conductor at those performances. The conductor was Mahler.
 
Posted by PD (# 12436) on :
 
Does anyone else love the irony of Hitler modelling his speaking gestures on Mahler's conducting style? I love stuff like that!

The Nazi actually wanted to eventually replace Wagner as his heros usually come unglued some way or another. Siegfrid gets done in by Hagen; Rienzi gets done cooked in the Capitol, Tristan gets wounded when he and Isolde extra-marital nookie is discovered, and so on and so forth.

Wagner's heroes usually have a fatal flaw or are victims of the fates, so they are not stainless Aryan heroes. Parsifal is so far away from the Nazi ethic that it surprises me that it took them until 1943 to ban what is a curious fusion of Buddhist and Christian values and symbols.

PD

[ 01. June 2013, 04:04: Message edited by: PD ]
 


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