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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: A Question of Musical Theory
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Taliesin
Shipmate
# 14017
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Posted
I believe I'm in the right place to ask my question?
Though I'm feeling a bit small and grim, since I suspect I'm wrong. Help me out please, people.
My son is 15 and doing music as a school subject. GCSE (equivalent of O level for those of you over 42) with a practical component set at grade 3.
Seriously. You can get top marks for playing a grade 3 piece very well.
They don't do a theory paper anymore, they study set works and identify styles and genres and that sort of thing. And compose short pieces, with some awareness of harmony.
The teacher set him homework with 3 grids to complete for homework, of primary and secondary chords, in C, G and F major.
The first grid, for C major, he'd copied off the board, and he was supposed to complete the other two but had no idea how. I looked at it and felt equally confused. I have a music degree and a PGCE in music, I teach secondary school but at a very low level, because it's for kids with problems, so I've not thought about advanced harmony since I did a diploma when I was 19 ... gulp! 24 years ago.
Aren't the chords in C major all natural notes? Isn't that the point? If a piece of music is in C major, and a Bb crops up, don't we say it's modulated to the subdominant, to F?
The 7th note of C major is not Bb. A chord that goes C E G Bb is the dominant 7th of F.
Can someone explain where all the E flats and C#s came from?
I've tried googling every possible combination of the ideas, but can't find a theory/harmony page that presents a grid like this in the same way. When S1 asked his teacher about it, she just said, 'you need a flattened 7th in the 7th chord' which of course is right... but he and I are both in the dark.
![[Help]](graemlins/help.gif)
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
Sorry, didn't realise you were a musician when I posted in AS.
In popular music (by which I mean rock, pop, jazz, blues, etc.) a "seventh chord" is shorthand for dominant 7th - e.g. C7 is the dominant seventh in the key of F. The chord written G7 in guitar chord notation means G dominant 7th with an F natural. It's because these are by far the most common 7th chords and the most used in popular music.
So whilst G-B-D-F is indeed the dominant seventh in the key of C, in popular music it's called G7, because from a fingering point of view it's a variation on the simple G major chord.
[ 17. May 2013, 10:23: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
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ThunderBunk
Stone cold idiot
# 15579
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Sorry, didn't realise you were a musician when I posted in AS.
In popular music (by which I mean rock, pop, jazz, blues, etc.) a "seventh chord" is shorthand for dominant 7th - e.g. C7 is the dominant seventh in the key of F. The chord written G7 in guitar chord notation means G dominant 7th with an F natural. It's because these are by far the most common 7th chords and the most used in popular music.
So whilst G-B-D-F is indeed the dominant seventh in the key of C, in popular music it's called G7, because from a fingering point of view it's a variation on the simple G major chord.
But guitar notation is one thing and music theory another. If they're looking at chords in C major, the dominant seventh necessarily has G as its root, and F natural as the seventh. No wonder no-one can modulate any more....
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
Someone may correct me - I remember tying myself up in knots over this about a year ago - but I think the issue is that the notes of a chord are determined by the chord's root, not by the key that the overall piece of music is in.
So the II chord in the scale of C has a root of D. The major chord is therefore D + F# + A. (You can think of the definition of a major chord as being root + two whole tones + a tone and a half.)
If you use F instead then you have created a minor chord (root + tone and a half + two whole tones).
Therefore, if you want to write a piece of music in C that doesn't have an F# accidental, you must either avoid the chord II altogether (e.g. by inverting another chord if necessary) or use a minor chord.
[ 17. May 2013, 10:35: Message edited by: Ricardus ]
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by FooloftheShip:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Sorry, didn't realise you were a musician when I posted in AS.
In popular music (by which I mean rock, pop, jazz, blues, etc.) a "seventh chord" is shorthand for dominant 7th - e.g. C7 is the dominant seventh in the key of F. The chord written G7 in guitar chord notation means G dominant 7th with an F natural. It's because these are by far the most common 7th chords and the most used in popular music.
So whilst G-B-D-F is indeed the dominant seventh in the key of C, in popular music it's called G7, because from a fingering point of view it's a variation on the simple G major chord.
But guitar notation is one thing and music theory another. If they're looking at chords in C major, the dominant seventh necessarily has G as its root, and F natural as the seventh. No wonder no-one can modulate any more....
I wouldn't go that far. I was merely pointing out why the term "seventh chord" on its own might mean "Dominant Seventh" and be named for its root, not for the overall key.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
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ThunderBunk
Stone cold idiot
# 15579
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
Someone may correct me - I remember tying myself up in knots over this about a year ago - but I think the issue is that the notes of a chord are determined by the chord's root, not by the key that the overall piece of music is in.
So the II chord in the scale of C has a root of D. The major chord is therefore D + F# + A. (You can think of the definition of a major chord as being root + two whole tones + a tone and a half.)
If you use F instead then you have created a minor chord (root + tone and a half + two whole tones).
Therefore, if you want to write a piece of music in C that doesn't have an F# accidental, you must either avoid the chord II altogether (e.g. by inverting another chord if necessary) or use a minor chord.
This is the problem with guitar chords - they've completely confused everyone ![[Mad]](angryfire.gif)
All the chords in C major have only the notes in C major in them. Chord II in C major therefore has D F and A. Chord III has E, G and B. Both of these are minor chords when they are roots of their own keys because there is a minor 3rd between the 1st and 3rd degrees of the chord, but they are nevertheless chords in, or to put it another way associated with, a major key.
You can't build a structure of chords to make a satisfying progression without understanding the basics of the relationship between key and harmonisation.
Sorry, OP, you know this already but it does drive me mad when these things are distorted.
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Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76
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Posted
I'd rather say that guitar chords (and the same notations are used by players of other instruments in popular music) are a different way of looking at harmony.
As indeed is figured bass. Just notations that make it clear to the player who may be improvising what's going on. We all expect a D-F-A chord in a piece in C unless modulation is going on; it's just we guitarists call it Dm rather than II, owing to the fact that it's the same Dm fingering wise as we'd find in a piece in D minor, F major, Bb major and so on.
Or indeed G Myxolydian (modern)
[ 17. May 2013, 10:51: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]
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wishandaprayer
Shipmate
# 17673
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Posted
Yes indeed, you all make good points. Of course this practice of modulation is not a modern thing, Bach made a habit of using the cadential ii-V7-I.
The roman numeral method of identifying/analysing chords within a key, stretches back, and as you correctly point out it allows identification of chords in a root key without necessarily needing to modulate key constantly. In jazz/gospel this is very useful where much more unusual chords are used like I7 (which in the case of C is C7/dominant 7th = C E G Bb, as opposed to C major 7, C E G B) are used commonly.
The modern educational approach is moving more to this sort of knowledge of music which matches the "industry" as it were. While the use of standard scores is still taught, I believe, depending on the school and the syllabus, there are moves (such as the difference between ABRSM and Rock School) to move towards a more modern to music.
What surprises me is that as I've heard the use of primary chords they normally refer to I, IV, V and secondary chords as ii, iii and vi (and possible vii diminished). So C7 which is the chord in question here would have no place in any of those grids.
EDIT: In response to other responses. Don't forget that the capitalisation of the numerals is important this gives us the flexibility to record any chord while remaining in any key. In they key of C, II = D major, while ii = D minor and ii7 = D minor 7, II7 = D dom 7, etc.
[ 17. May 2013, 10:54: Message edited by: wishandaprayer ]
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ThunderBunk
Stone cold idiot
# 15579
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
I'd rather say that guitar chords (and the same notations are used by players of other instruments in popular music) are a different way of looking at harmony.
As indeed is figured bass. Just notations that make it clear to the player who may be improvising what's going on. We all expect a D-F-A chord in a piece in C unless modulation is going on; it's just we guitarists call it Dm rather than II, owing to the fact that it's the same Dm fingering wise as we'd find in a piece in D minor, F major, Bb major and so on.
Or indeed G Myxolydian (modern)
They answer fundamentally different questions: in terms of playing, it's always Dm; in terms of writing music and therefore using the chord in harmonic structures, I in D minor is a totally different chord from II in C major. I is always I in terms of its use in cadences etc., whatever key it is in.
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Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".
Foolish, potentially deranged witterings
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Taliesin
Shipmate
# 14017
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Posted
I love you all ![[Axe murder]](graemlins/lovedrops.gif) keep going.
Karl, sorry, I answered you in AS cos I didn't know you'd posted here too.
Richardus, thank you. I understand that a chord with D as a root will have F#, and/but thought the general idea is that a chord 2 in any major key WILL BE a minor, because of the flattened third. If you use a major chord it ceases to be chord 2 in c major and becomes a modulation to the dominant. ? Arghh! I can hear the rusty harmonic cogs in my brain creaking...
and, what is this grid trying to achieve? What is it showing 15 year olds who have never worked significantly on music theory?
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76
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Posted
You are correct, and thinking in terms of guitar notation does make writing in more unusual keys more challenging, because you're used to D7->G, C7->F, A7->D; write in Ab and you're suddenly having to think "so what's the equivalent of G7 in C when you're in Ab?"*
That's the weakness of the system. Someone serious about writing needs to understand the classical models as well.
*(The answer to the question is of course "slap a Capo on the 6th fret and think in D")**
**Hence the old joke "how does a country and western guitarist play in F#? He slaps a capo on the 11th fret and plays in G"
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Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Taliesin
Shipmate
# 14017
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Posted
I'll probably cross post.
Ok, thanks, I now get that C-11 is D major, with a F#, and the teacher was right. And, I still maintain that she didn't teach anything.
My understanding of harmony has clearly followed the school of 'anything that suggests the right sound' that Karl is talking about. Guitars and keyboards and whatnot.
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Taliesin
Shipmate
# 14017
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Posted
Is it just me, of are fooloftheship and wishandaprayer saying directly opposite things ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by FooloftheShip:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
I'd rather say that guitar chords (and the same notations are used by players of other instruments in popular music) are a different way of looking at harmony.
As indeed is figured bass. Just notations that make it clear to the player who may be improvising what's going on. We all expect a D-F-A chord in a piece in C unless modulation is going on; it's just we guitarists call it Dm rather than II, owing to the fact that it's the same Dm fingering wise as we'd find in a piece in D minor, F major, Bb major and so on.
Or indeed G Myxolydian (modern)
They answer fundamentally different questions: in terms of playing, it's always Dm
Even for us Dm playing guitarists it's a bit more complicated than that. If we're playing in C and come up against a Dm (assuming we're using the basic Dm fingering on the first three frets and open strings) we may add colour by pulling off from the F on the high E string to the open E and hammering back on again. Do that if you're playing in Bb and it's likely to sound nasty, and you'd be better hammering on from the D on the B string third fret to the Eb a semitone above and pulling off back down again.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
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ThunderBunk
Stone cold idiot
# 15579
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Taliesin:
Is it just me, of are fooloftheship and wishandaprayer saying directly opposite things
I think we were saying the same thing inside out, but I could be wrong.
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Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".
Foolish, potentially deranged witterings
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ThunderBunk
Stone cold idiot
# 15579
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Posted
Also, bear in mind that I'm one of those musician/linguist/mathematicians, for whom structure is the centre of everything. This makes me somewhat intolerant of things which fudge the structure to make learning "easier" because to my mind this makes learning impossible because the true nature of the structure is simply not accessible to be understood through the fudge.
[ 17. May 2013, 11:21: Message edited by: FooloftheShip ]
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Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".
Foolish, potentially deranged witterings
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
As observed above, be careful of anything I say because I'm in a state of confusion myself.
My understanding is that if you plonk a minor chord on the D of C major, it's described as ii, not II. That may suggest there's no such thing as a II chord ...
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
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Taliesin
Shipmate
# 14017
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Posted
Ok... trying to understand.
wishandaprayer, you say that C7 is CEGB and you also said C E G Bb is a dominant 7th, but it's the dominant 7th of F, not C. ??
quote:
What surprises me is that as I've heard the use of primary chords they normally refer to I, IV, V and secondary chords as ii, iii and vi (and possible vii diminished). So C7 which is the chord in question here would have no place in any of those grids.
The grid had its top line as C E G Bb which as far as I'm aware, is the diminished 7th of C major. To use C E G B feels weird, which is presumably why people use diminished chords, flattening the 7th.
So is there a rule about diminished chords, and if so what is it? Why would the 7th note be included in the grid at all without a clear indication about what the rules for 7th notes are, and,
Aren't a lot of these things ambiguous these days? That sometimes it's obvious what the modulation is but sometimes it's only suggested, and since no one is consigned to hell anymore for using the wrong progressions, does it matter?
[ducks]
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by FooloftheShip:
Also, bear in mind that I'm one of those musician/linguist/mathematicians, for whom structure is the centre of everything. This makes me somewhat intolerant of things which fudge the structure to make learning "easier" because to my mind it makes it impossible because the true nature of the structure just can't be understood through the fudge.
Yeah, I'm one of those as well, but I just find myself bilingual in musical theory.
The converse side of this of course is that sometimes I get flak from what I consider an anti-intellectual faction - who are found as much in light opera as in popular music (yes, G&S societies I'm looking at you) - who seem to have a downer on anyone who can read music and uses terms like "crotchet", "modulation" or "modal". God, the hostility when I dared to mention the repeated B natural in one of the choruses in Yeoman that at least half the chorus were singing as a Bb because the key is F.
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Taliesin:
Ok... trying to understand.
wishandaprayer, you say that C7 is CEGB and you also said C E G Bb is a dominant 7th, but it's the dominant 7th of F, not C. ??
quote:
What surprises me is that as I've heard the use of primary chords they normally refer to I, IV, V and secondary chords as ii, iii and vi (and possible vii diminished). So C7 which is the chord in question here would have no place in any of those grids.
The grid had its top line as C E G Bb which as far as I'm aware, is the diminished 7th of C major. To use C E G B feels weird, which is presumably why people use diminished chords, flattening the 7th.
So is there a rule about diminished chords, and if so what is it? Why would the 7th note be included in the grid at all without a clear indication about what the rules for 7th notes are, and,
Aren't a lot of these things ambiguous these days? That sometimes it's obvious what the modulation is but sometimes it's only suggested, and since no one is consigned to hell anymore for using the wrong progressions, does it matter?
[ducks]
C E G B is (in popular notation) Cmaj7, spoken as "C major 7th". It's more of an extension of C major. The C7, dominant seventh, would be C E G Bb. Cmaj7 belongs in the key of C; C7 doesn't; its natural home is F.
It's only a minor 7th though - diminished sevenths are dropped another semitone IIRC, although in modern notation Cdim7 would be C-Eb-Gb-A - all a minor third apart. Bach's famous Toccata in D minor makes extensive use of C#Dim7 with a D drone bass. But I digress.
[ 17. May 2013, 11:31: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
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Taliesin
Shipmate
# 14017
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by FooloftheShip:
quote:
Originally posted by Taliesin:
Is it just me, of are fooloftheship and wishandaprayer saying directly opposite things
I think we were saying the same thing inside out, but I could be wrong.
You said:
quote:
All the chords in C major have only the notes in C major in them. Chord II in C major therefore has D F and A. Chord III has E, G and B. Both of these are minor chords when they are roots of their own keys because there is a minor 3rd between the 1st and 3rd degrees of the chord, but they are nevertheless chords in, or to put it another way associated with, a major key.
which is where I came in (my understanding of harmony, and why the grids don't make sense)
by wishandaprayer said:
quote:
Don't forget that the capitalisation of the numerals is important this gives us the flexibility to record any chord while remaining in any key. In they key of C, II = D major, while ii = D minor and ii7 = D minor 7, II7 = D dom 7, etc.
which backs up Ricardus - that C11 is D major so you have to have an F#, or avoid the chord.
Although, remembering this poxy grid, I'm sure she expressed the second chord as ii, so perhaps she doesn't know it's allowed to be a d minor chord.
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Taliesin
Shipmate
# 14017
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Posted
Yes. Not diminished, minor. thanks.
It's good to reconnect with this stuff. If you don't use it, it goes.
but if you're right about the Cmaj7 being B, not Bb, because, as I said at the beginning, that would make it the dominant 7th of F major, the grid is wrong?
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Taliesin:
Yes. Not diminished, minor. thanks.
It's good to reconnect with this stuff. If you don't use it, it goes.
but if you're right about the Cmaj7 being B, not Bb, because, as I said at the beginning, that would make it the dominant 7th of F major, the grid is wrong?
Depends on what the grid's trying to say. If it's meant to be a grid of chords based on C major, chords used in C major...
There are two major 7ths in the key of C - Fmaj7, or I and IV with superscripted 7s. There is a diminished chord as well - VII (B, D, F) - diminished fifth. This differs from the aforementiond diminished 7th because there's no Ab ![[Biased]](wink.gif) ; its guitarists' notation would be Bm-5, and about 1 in 20 would know what it was and how to play it.
I like major 7ths, aesthetically. I7 shares every note except the tonic with iii which allows some pleasing progressions.
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ThunderBunk
Stone cold idiot
# 15579
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Posted
Could you put your musician's hat (rather than your parental one) on and go and talk to the teacher about what the grid is trying to achieve? I certainly can't see what it's even attempting to get at, and I'm not usually bad at working out intentions, even where I don't agree with them.
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Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".
Foolish, potentially deranged witterings
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
Wikipedia would seem to confirm that II (in the key of C) is a D major chord distinct from ii / d minor:
quote:
This type of progression was much used by classical composers, who introduced increasingly subtle inflections. Particularly, substitution of major for minor chords giving, for example, I - VI - II - V allowed a more sophisticated chromaticism as well as the possibility of modulation.
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
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wishandaprayer
Shipmate
# 17673
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
There is a diminished chord as well - VII (B, D, F) - diminished fifth.
Also called the "half diminished" ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
EDIT: Oops, half post.
Anyway, back to the OP. If the original question about "primary" and "secondary" chords holds then the grids sort of do make sense, although it does point to a dumbing down of education. I would clarify with the teacher what they're hoping to gain from this. Chordal education is still important, and forms much more of a basis for "ear" playing than any other form of theory, in my opinion.
[ 17. May 2013, 12:26: Message edited by: wishandaprayer ]
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Taliesin
Shipmate
# 14017
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Posted
dumbing down? in which sense?
The grid seems to point to a kind of harmony no child is going to use in their composition, unless they're composing choral works.?
Without some kind of figuring (as in, figured bass) how would anyone know you were playing the CII chord rather than modulating, and what happened to all those rules I usually work with, which is that chords 2, 3 and 6 sound minor and can give an interesting twist to a song?
The most basic chord progression kids are familiar with is 1, 5, 6, 4 (you'll notice I abandoned the use of roman numerals during my PGCE year) which is basis of a hundred common songs. see 4 chords
now this is dumbing down (I hate that expression)
It's teaching something useful now today, that might stick in their mind later.
Never has it occurred to me to remember that chord 6 is only minor if it's in little letters.
I think the grid was right, but had no point.
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
As observed above, be careful of anything I say because I'm in a state of confusion myself.
My understanding is that if you plonk a minor chord on the D of C major, it's described as ii, not II. That may suggest there's no such thing as a II chord ...
Correct that D minor in the key of C major is ii. There is such a thing as a II chord, but functionally D major is usually V/V in the key of C. You would only refer to the chord as "II" in the rare instances where it was 1) not tonicized and 2) not clearly set up as a dominant of something else. This is most common in rock music, where you might have a sequence like C major -> D major -> F major; in that sequence D is not functioning as it would in common practice harmony.
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76
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Posted
I wonder how power chords (i.e. no 3rd) are listed? Vi? iI?
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Taliesin:
Ok... trying to understand.
wishandaprayer, you say that C7 is CEGB and you also said C E G Bb is a dominant 7th, but it's the dominant 7th of F, not C. ??
quote:
What surprises me is that as I've heard the use of primary chords they normally refer to I, IV, V and secondary chords as ii, iii and vi (and possible vii diminished). So C7 which is the chord in question here would have no place in any of those grids.
The grid had its top line as C E G Bb which as far as I'm aware, is the diminished 7th of C major. To use C E G B feels weird, which is presumably why people use diminished chords, flattening the 7th.
So is there a rule about diminished chords, and if so what is it? Why would the 7th note be included in the grid at all without a clear indication about what the rules for 7th notes are, and,
Aren't a lot of these things ambiguous these days? That sometimes it's obvious what the modulation is but sometimes it's only suggested, and since no one is consigned to hell anymore for using the wrong progressions, does it matter?
[ducks]
The problem is that you are talking in two different languages here. On lead sheets and pop music folios, it's common to refer to dominant seventh chords as X7, and it's understood that the seventh is a minor seventh. When a major-seventh chord is desired, it's called Xmaj7; when a minor chord with a minor seventh is desired, Xmin7.
In traditional music theory, though, it is the functionality of the chord within the stated key which is referred to. So you won't see "C7" in a harmonic analysis; in the key of C, what is called C7 on pop sheet music will usually be referred to as V7/IV (the dominant seventh of four)--unless, of course, it is serving some other functional purpose in the harmony.
It's dangerous to mix the two ways of talking about chords, because it inevitably leads to confusion. Essentially, the lead-sheet way of referring to chords limits itself to spelling the chord in shorthand, while the harmonic-analysis way concentrates on how the chords are functioning within the key.
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
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Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
I wonder how power chords (i.e. no 3rd) are listed? Vi? iI?
They don't exist in common-practice harmony.
In lead sheets, they're usually called X5 (C5, D5, etc). I can't think of any examples between 1650 and 1900 of bare fifths in music, except for quasi-medieval or -primitive effects (e.g. Mussorgsky in Pictures). Chords are, by definition, at least three notes, so my guess is that most theorists would just claim that an open fifth is not a chord and has no harmonic content.
(Previous to the common-practice era it was common for compositions to end on an open fifth, because thirds were still thought of as dissonances. But that kind of harmony can't really be analyzed using common-practice tools, since it is based primarily on counterpoint and not chordal motion)
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
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Taliesin
Shipmate
# 14017
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Posted
Thank you.
I call an open fifth a drone, by the way.
Very useful in quasi folk music, and in drawing parallels to Indian music and other cultural concepts.
So. In the blessed grid, the first chord being C E G Bb means what?
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Taliesin:
dumbing down? in which sense?
The grid seems to point to a kind of harmony no child is going to use in their composition, unless they're composing choral works.?
Without some kind of figuring (as in, figured bass) how would anyone know you were playing the CII chord rather than modulating, and what happened to all those rules I usually work with, which is that chords 2, 3 and 6 sound minor and can give an interesting twist to a song?
The most basic chord progression kids are familiar with is 1, 5, 6, 4 (you'll notice I abandoned the use of roman numerals during my PGCE year) which is basis of a hundred common songs. see 4 chords
now this is dumbing down (I hate that expression)
It's teaching something useful now today, that might stick in their mind later.
Never has it occurred to me to remember that chord 6 is only minor if it's in little letters.
I think the grid was right, but had no point.
Talking about 'modulation' in relation to a single chord is part of the problem, I think. Because a single chord doesn't constitute a modulation. It could just constitute local colouring. You can't actually say that you've modulated to another key until you have a cadence in that key that announces you've arrived.
So it's perfectly possible to have an F sharp or a B flat or something while you are 'in' C major. Just not as part of the standard chords that you give you your sense of key.
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Taliesin:
Thank you.
I call an open fifth a drone, by the way.
Very useful in quasi folk music, and in drawing parallels to Indian music and other cultural concepts.
So. In the blessed grid, the first chord being C E G Bb means what?
I'm having trouble visualizing this grid you're talking about and understanding what it's supposed to represent. Can you give some more information?
Normally, in the key of C, the chord spelled C E G B-flat would be the V of IV--usually it's a way of "tonicizing" F, making it feel like the tonic briefly before coming back to C.
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
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FooloftheShip:This is the problem with guitar chords - they've completely confused everyone
LOL, Brazilian guitar chords are even more complex
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
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Originally posted by LeRoc:
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FooloftheShip:This is the problem with guitar chords - they've completely confused everyone
LOL, Brazilian guitar chords are even more complex
I blame bossa nova with all its Em7-5 and A7-9 and D11+9...
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
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Fr Weber: I blame bossa nova with all its Em7-5 and A7-9 and D11+9...
You put the blame in the right place! Many times I wish I had at least 6 fingers on my right hand
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
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Timothy the Obscure
Mostly Friendly
# 292
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Taliesin:
dumbing down? in which sense?
The grid seems to point to a kind of harmony no child is going to use in their composition, unless they're composing choral works.?
Without some kind of figuring (as in, figured bass) how would anyone know you were playing the CII chord rather than modulating, and what happened to all those rules I usually work with, which is that chords 2, 3 and 6 sound minor and can give an interesting twist to a song?
The most basic chord progression kids are familiar with is 1, 5, 6, 4 (you'll notice I abandoned the use of roman numerals during my PGCE year) which is basis of a hundred common songs. see 4 chords
now this is dumbing down (I hate that expression)
It's teaching something useful now today, that might stick in their mind later.
Never has it occurred to me to remember that chord 6 is only minor if it's in little letters.
I think the grid was right, but had no point.
Talking about 'modulation' in relation to a single chord is part of the problem, I think. Because a single chord doesn't constitute a modulation. It could just constitute local colouring. You can't actually say that you've modulated to another key until you have a cadence in that key that announces you've arrived.
So it's perfectly possible to have an F sharp or a B flat or something while you are 'in' C major. Just not as part of the standard chords that you give you your sense of key.
A II chord in the key of C (D F# A) isn't really a modulation, just an altered chord, sometimes referred to as a secondary dominant (i.e., the dominant of the dominant). It's common in jazz, not so much in classical.
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When you think of the long and gloomy history of man, you will find more hideous crimes have been committed in the name of obedience than have ever been committed in the name of rebellion.
- C. P. Snow
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Timothy the Obscure:
It's common in jazz, not so much in classical.
I wondered when someone would be cruel enough to mention Jazz.
With all its chord extensions and substitutions, "outside" chords and notes (Eb major 7 chord in the key of C? You won't find that in your grid, but it's a staple for jazz musicians playing the blues.) jazz can look far more confusing than it actually is. If you find the guitar chord notation confuses classical notation just don't go there.
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Timothy the Obscure:
A II chord in the key of C (D F# A) isn't really a modulation, just an altered chord, sometimes referred to as a secondary dominant (i.e., the dominant of the dominant). It's common in jazz, not so much in classical.
Actually secondary dominants happen all over the place in classical music...
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
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Fr Weber: Actually secondary dominants happen all over the place in classical music...
In this context, it was often called 'transient modulation', which is in line with what people have said on this thread. Using D-F#-A in a C major piece, it would 'temporarily' modulate to G, but this would be resolved so quickly that the piece wasn't felt to really arrive at a G major key.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
Just adding, this kind of transient modulation (for example D-F#-A-C in C major key) would often be notated V⁷/V (the dominant seventh of the dominant) instead of II.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
I usually see it called "tonicization". But the V/V can also substitute for IV or ii; in that case, V isn't necessarily being tonicized, the raised 3rd functions as a leading tone to V in order to strengthen the pull.
The actual appearance of II (i.e. not functioning as a secondary dominant) is rare in common-practice classical music.
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Taliesin:
The grid seems to point to a kind of harmony no child is going to use in their composition, unless they're composing choral works.?
[...]
I think the grid was right, but had no point.
From the account in the OP it looks as if the point of the exercise is to teach the kids to transpose accompaniments from one key to another. The three-chord-trick strumming guitarist (who tends to memorise chord shapes rather than the notes the chord is made of - and I bet bet some keyboard players do as well) knows that if they normally play E-A-B7-E for a song in E major, they would play G-C-D7-G for the same song in G major.
quote:
Originally posted by Taliesin:
So. In the blessed grid, the first chord being C E G Bb means what?
I think it means the chord the church worship band guitarist strums when the little symbol he pencilled in above the words of the song says "C7"
And I suspect that the worksheet is asking the kids something along the lines of "If you played C7 at this point when the song is in F, what chord would you play if the song was in G?" Its not about modulating from one key to another duing a performance, its about transposing from one key to another in your head while playing - somethign folk and rock and especially jazz musicians do often because they might be sitting in with people playing a song in one key that they are used to playing in another.
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
Chords are, by definition, at least three notes, so my guess is that most theorists would just claim that an open fifth is not a chord and has no harmonic content.
So that's why the posh music-school Radio Three types didn't like Vaughan Williams? No harmonic content!
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Fr Weber: The actual appearance of II (i.e. not functioning as a secondary dominant) is rare in common-practice classical music.
I agree, and it's quite common in jazz. For example, Take The 'A' Train starts with the progression I - II. Or more specifically, I - II⁷(♭5).
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
The three-chord-trick strumming guitarist
Yo.
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(who tends to memorise chord shapes rather than the notes the chord is made of - and I bet bet some keyboard players do as well) knows that if they normally play E-A-B7-E for a song in E major, they would play G-C-D7-G for the same song in G major.
Or just slap a capo on the third fret and play E-A-B7-E ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
Seriously, transposing songs into a different key on the fly is something I've had to pick up very quickly while playing in the band at my new church. The phrase "hey, let's play this one in X instead" no longer fills me with utter terror, though there's still a fair amount of worry!
I genuinely have no idea what most of this thread is on about. But as I always say, I'm not a musician, I'm a guitarist!
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Hail Gallaxhar
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Dan Druff
Apprentice
# 17703
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
Fr Weber: I blame bossa nova with all its Em7-5 and A7-9 and D11+9...
You put the blame in the right place! Many times I wish I had at least 6 fingers on my right hand
When I was fifteen I was given as a present a book entitled "500 Advanced Chords for Guitar" of which probably 475 were unplayable without the use of extra fingers (gems such as E13b9aug11 were included).
The book helpfully gave three inversions of each chord, all of which were equally unplayable.
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
Hello Dan Druff, and welcome aboard! Please have a look around, and especially do check out the board guidelines, as they vary for each board.
You might also like to pop over to All Saints and introduce yourself on the thread for new people, where they'll give you a warm welcome.
Happy sailing, and enjoy the boards!
Ariel
Heaven Host
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dan Druff:
When I was fifteen I was given as a present a book entitled "500 Advanced Chords for Guitar" of which probably 475 were unplayable without the use of extra fingers (gems such as E13b9aug11 were included).
Only 2 fingers needed for that one, not extra ones. Think of it as a A#7 with an E bass note.
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Last ever sig ...
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Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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Dan Druff
Apprentice
# 17703
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by balaam:
quote:
Originally posted by Dan Druff:
When I was fifteen I was given as a present a book entitled "500 Advanced Chords for Guitar" of which probably 475 were unplayable without the use of extra fingers (gems such as E13b9aug11 were included).
Only 2 fingers needed for that one, not extra ones. Think of it as a A#7 with an E bass note.
Thanks for the tip. The book itself I gave to a work colleague to give to her son, who wanted to learn "all the chords".
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