Thread: A Question of Musical Theory Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.


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Posted by Taliesin (# 14017) on :
 
I believe I'm in the right place to ask my question?

Though I'm feeling a bit small and grim, since I suspect I'm wrong. Help me out please, people.

My son is 15 and doing music as a school subject. GCSE (equivalent of O level for those of you over 42) with a practical component set at grade 3.
Seriously. You can get top marks for playing a grade 3 piece very well.

They don't do a theory paper anymore, they study set works and identify styles and genres and that sort of thing. And compose short pieces, with some awareness of harmony.

The teacher set him homework with 3 grids to complete for homework, of primary and secondary chords, in C, G and F major.

The first grid, for C major, he'd copied off the board, and he was supposed to complete the other two but had no idea how. I looked at it and felt equally confused. I have a music degree and a PGCE in music, I teach secondary school but at a very low level, because it's for kids with problems, so I've not thought about advanced harmony since I did a diploma when I was 19 ... gulp! 24 years ago.

Aren't the chords in C major all natural notes? Isn't that the point? If a piece of music is in C major, and a Bb crops up, don't we say it's modulated to the subdominant, to F?

The 7th note of C major is not Bb. A chord that goes C E G Bb is the dominant 7th of F.

Can someone explain where all the E flats and C#s came from?
I've tried googling every possible combination of the ideas, but can't find a theory/harmony page that presents a grid like this in the same way. When S1 asked his teacher about it, she just said, 'you need a flattened 7th in the 7th chord' which of course is right... but he and I are both in the dark.


 

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Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :
 
Sorry, didn't realise you were a musician when I posted in AS.

In popular music (by which I mean rock, pop, jazz, blues, etc.) a "seventh chord" is shorthand for dominant 7th - e.g. C7 is the dominant seventh in the key of F. The chord written G7 in guitar chord notation means G dominant 7th with an F natural. It's because these are by far the most common 7th chords and the most used in popular music.

So whilst G-B-D-F is indeed the dominant seventh in the key of C, in popular music it's called G7, because from a fingering point of view it's a variation on the simple G major chord.

[ 17. May 2013, 10:23: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]
 

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Posted by FooloftheShip (# 15579) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Sorry, didn't realise you were a musician when I posted in AS.

In popular music (by which I mean rock, pop, jazz, blues, etc.) a "seventh chord" is shorthand for dominant 7th - e.g. C7 is the dominant seventh in the key of F. The chord written G7 in guitar chord notation means G dominant 7th with an F natural. It's because these are by far the most common 7th chords and the most used in popular music.

So whilst G-B-D-F is indeed the dominant seventh in the key of C, in popular music it's called G7, because from a fingering point of view it's a variation on the simple G major chord.

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quote:

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Originally posted by FooloftheShip:

quote:

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Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Sorry, didn't realise you were a musician when I posted in AS.

In popular music (by which I mean rock, pop, jazz, blues, etc.) a "seventh chord" is shorthand for dominant 7th - e.g. C7 is the dominant seventh in the key of F. The chord written G7 in guitar chord notation means G dominant 7th with an F natural. It's because these are by far the most common 7th chords and the most used in popular music.

So whilst G-B-D-F is indeed the dominant seventh in the key of C, in popular music it's called G7, because from a fingering point of view it's a variation on the simple G major chord.

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But guitar notation is one thing and music theory another. If they're looking at chords in C major, the dominant seventh necessarily has G as its root, and F natural as the seventh. No wonder no-one can modulate any more....

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quote:

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Originally posted by Ricardus:
Someone may correct me - I remember tying myself up in knots over this about a year ago - but I think the issue is that the notes of a chord are determined by the chord's root, not by the key that the overall piece of music is in.

So the II chord in the scale of C has a root of D. The major chord is therefore D + F# + A. (You can think of the definition of a major chord as being root + two whole tones + a tone and a half.)

If you use F instead then you have created a minor chord (root + tone and a half + two whole tones).

Therefore, if you want to write a piece of music in C that doesn't have an F# accidental, you must either avoid the chord II altogether (e.g. by inverting another chord if necessary) or use a minor chord.

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This is the problem with guitar chords - they've completely confused everyone

All the chords in C major have only the notes in C major in them. Chord II in C major therefore has D F and A. Chord III has E, G and B. Both of these are minor chords when they are roots of their own keys because there is a minor 3rd between the 1st and 3rd degrees of the chord, but they are nevertheless chords in, or to put it another way associated with, a major key.

You can't build a structure of chords to make a satisfying progression without understanding the basics of the relationship between key and harmonisation.

Sorry, OP, you know this already but it does drive me mad when these things are distorted.
 

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Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :
 
I'd rather say that guitar chords (and the same notations are used by players of other instruments in popular music) are a different way of looking at harmony.

As indeed is figured bass. Just notations that make it clear to the player who may be improvising what's going on. We all expect a D-F-A chord in a piece in C unless modulation is going on; it's just we guitarists call it Dm rather than II, owing to the fact that it's the same Dm fingering wise as we'd find in a piece in D minor, F major, Bb major and so on.

Or indeed G Myxolydian (modern)

[ 17. May 2013, 10:51: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]
 

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Posted by wishandaprayer (# 17673) on :
 
Yes indeed, you all make good points. Of course this practice of modulation is not a modern thing, Bach made a habit of using the cadential ii-V7-I.

The roman numeral method of identifying/analysing chords within a key, stretches back, and as you correctly point out it allows identification of chords in a root key without necessarily needing to modulate key constantly. In jazz/gospel this is very useful where much more unusual chords are used like I7 (which in the case of C is C7/dominant 7th = C E G Bb, as opposed to C major 7, C E G B) are used commonly.

The modern educational approach is moving more to this sort of knowledge of music which matches the "industry" as it were. While the use of standard scores is still taught, I believe, depending on the school and the syllabus, there are moves (such as the difference between ABRSM and Rock School) to move towards a more modern to music.

What surprises me is that as I've heard the use of primary chords they normally refer to I, IV, V and secondary chords as ii, iii and vi (and possible vii diminished). So C7 which is the chord in question here would have no place in any of those grids.

EDIT: In response to other responses. Don't forget that the capitalisation of the numerals is important this gives us the flexibility to record any chord while remaining in any key. In they key of C, II = D major, while ii = D minor and ii7 = D minor 7, II7 = D dom 7, etc.

[ 17. May 2013, 10:54: Message edited by: wishandaprayer ]
 

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Posted by FooloftheShip (# 15579) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
I'd rather say that guitar chords (and the same notations are used by players of other instruments in popular music) are a different way of looking at harmony.

As indeed is figured bass. Just notations that make it clear to the player who may be improvising what's going on. We all expect a D-F-A chord in a piece in C unless modulation is going on; it's just we guitarists call it Dm rather than II, owing to the fact that it's the same Dm fingering wise as we'd find in a piece in D minor, F major, Bb major and so on.

Or indeed G Myxolydian (modern)

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They answer fundamentally different questions: in terms of playing, it's always Dm; in terms of writing music and therefore using the chord in harmonic structures, I in D minor is a totally different chord from II in C major. I is always I in terms of its use in cadences etc., whatever key it is in.
 

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Posted by Taliesin (# 14017) on :
 
I love you all keep going.

Karl, sorry, I answered you in AS cos I didn't know you'd posted here too.

Richardus, thank you. I understand that a chord with D as a root will have F#, and/but thought the general idea is that a chord 2 in any major key WILL BE a minor, because of the flattened third. If you use a major chord it ceases to be chord 2 in c major and becomes a modulation to the dominant. ? Arghh! I can hear the rusty harmonic cogs in my brain creaking...

and, what is this grid trying to achieve? What is it showing 15 year olds who have never worked significantly on music theory?
 

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Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :
 
You are correct, and thinking in terms of guitar notation does make writing in more unusual keys more challenging, because you're used to D7->G, C7->F, A7->D; write in Ab and you're suddenly having to think "so what's the equivalent of G7 in C when you're in Ab?"*

That's the weakness of the system. Someone serious about writing needs to understand the classical models as well.

*(The answer to the question is of course "slap a Capo on the 6th fret and think in D")**

**Hence the old joke "how does a country and western guitarist play in F#? He slaps a capo on the 11th fret and plays in G"
 

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Posted by Taliesin (# 14017) on :
 
I'll probably cross post.

Ok, thanks, I now get that C-11 is D major, with a F#, and the teacher was right. And, I still maintain that she didn't teach anything.

My understanding of harmony has clearly followed the school of 'anything that suggests the right sound' that Karl is talking about. Guitars and keyboards and whatnot.
 

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Posted by Taliesin (# 14017) on :
 
Is it just me, of are fooloftheship and wishandaprayer saying directly opposite things
 

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Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by FooloftheShip:

quote:

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Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
I'd rather say that guitar chords (and the same notations are used by players of other instruments in popular music) are a different way of looking at harmony.

As indeed is figured bass. Just notations that make it clear to the player who may be improvising what's going on. We all expect a D-F-A chord in a piece in C unless modulation is going on; it's just we guitarists call it Dm rather than II, owing to the fact that it's the same Dm fingering wise as we'd find in a piece in D minor, F major, Bb major and so on.

Or indeed G Myxolydian (modern)

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They answer fundamentally different questions: in terms of playing, it's always Dm

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quote:

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Originally posted by Taliesin:
Is it just me, of are fooloftheship and wishandaprayer saying directly opposite things

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What surprises me is that as I've heard the use of primary chords they normally refer to I, IV, V and secondary chords as ii, iii and vi (and possible vii diminished). So C7 which is the chord in question here would have no place in any of those grids.

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Originally posted by FooloftheShip:
Also, bear in mind that I'm one of those musician/linguist/mathematicians, for whom structure is the centre of everything. This makes me somewhat intolerant of things which fudge the structure to make learning "easier" because to my mind it makes it impossible because the true nature of the structure just can't be understood through the fudge.

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Originally posted by Taliesin:
Ok... trying to understand.

wishandaprayer, you say that C7 is CEGB and you also said C E G Bb is a dominant 7th, but it's the dominant 7th of F, not C. ??

quote:

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What surprises me is that as I've heard the use of primary chords they normally refer to I, IV, V and secondary chords as ii, iii and vi (and possible vii diminished). So C7 which is the chord in question here would have no place in any of those grids.

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The grid had its top line as C E G Bb which as far as I'm aware, is the diminished 7th of C major. To use C E G B feels weird, which is presumably why people use diminished chords, flattening the 7th.

So is there a rule about diminished chords, and if so what is it? Why would the 7th note be included in the grid at all without a clear indication about what the rules for 7th notes are, and,

Aren't a lot of these things ambiguous these days? That sometimes it's obvious what the modulation is but sometimes it's only suggested, and since no one is consigned to hell anymore for using the wrong progressions, does it matter?

[ducks]

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quote:

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Originally posted by FooloftheShip:

quote:

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Originally posted by Taliesin:
Is it just me, of are fooloftheship and wishandaprayer saying directly opposite things

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I think we were saying the same thing inside out, but I could be wrong.

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quote:

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All the chords in C major have only the notes in C major in them. Chord II in C major therefore has D F and A. Chord III has E, G and B. Both of these are minor chords when they are roots of their own keys because there is a minor 3rd between the 1st and 3rd degrees of the chord, but they are nevertheless chords in, or to put it another way associated with, a major key.

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Don't forget that the capitalisation of the numerals is important this gives us the flexibility to record any chord while remaining in any key. In they key of C, II = D major, while ii = D minor and ii7 = D minor 7, II7 = D dom 7, etc.

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Originally posted by Taliesin:
Yes. Not diminished, minor. thanks.

It's good to reconnect with this stuff. If you don't use it, it goes.

but if you're right about the Cmaj7 being B, not Bb, because, as I said at the beginning, that would make it the dominant 7th of F major, the grid is wrong?

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Depends on what the grid's trying to say. If it's meant to be a grid of chords based on C major, chords used in C major...

There are two major 7ths in the key of C - Fmaj7, or I and IV with superscripted 7s. There is a diminished chord as well - VII (B, D, F) - diminished fifth. This differs from the aforementiond diminished 7th because there's no Ab ; its guitarists' notation would be Bm-5, and about 1 in 20 would know what it was and how to play it.

I like major 7ths, aesthetically. I7 shares every note except the tonic with iii which allows some pleasing progressions.
 

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Posted by FooloftheShip (# 15579) on :
 
Could you put your musician's hat (rather than your parental one) on and go and talk to the teacher about what the grid is trying to achieve? I certainly can't see what it's even attempting to get at, and I'm not usually bad at working out intentions, even where I don't agree with them.
 

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Posted by Ricardus (# 8757) on :
 
Wikipedia would seem to confirm that II (in the key of C) is a D major chord distinct from ii / d minor:

quote:

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This type of progression was much used by classical composers, who introduced increasingly subtle inflections. Particularly, substitution of major for minor chords giving, for example, I - VI - II - V allowed a more sophisticated chromaticism as well as the possibility of modulation.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
There is a diminished chord as well - VII (B, D, F) - diminished fifth.

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Also called the "half diminished"

EDIT: Oops, half post.

Anyway, back to the OP. If the original question about "primary" and "secondary" chords holds then the grids sort of do make sense, although it does point to a dumbing down of education. I would clarify with the teacher what they're hoping to gain from this. Chordal education is still important, and forms much more of a basis for "ear" playing than any other form of theory, in my opinion.

[ 17. May 2013, 12:26: Message edited by: wishandaprayer ]
 

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Posted by Taliesin (# 14017) on :
 
dumbing down? in which sense?

The grid seems to point to a kind of harmony no child is going to use in their composition, unless they're composing choral works.?

Without some kind of figuring (as in, figured bass) how would anyone know you were playing the CII chord rather than modulating, and what happened to all those rules I usually work with, which is that chords 2, 3 and 6 sound minor and can give an interesting twist to a song?

The most basic chord progression kids are familiar with is 1, 5, 6, 4 (you'll notice I abandoned the use of roman numerals during my PGCE year) which is basis of a hundred common songs. see 4 chords

now this is dumbing down (I hate that expression)
It's teaching something useful now today, that might stick in their mind later.

Never has it occurred to me to remember that chord 6 is only minor if it's in little letters.
I think the grid was right, but had no point.
 

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Posted by Fr Weber (# 13472) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Ricardus:
As observed above, be careful of anything I say because I'm in a state of confusion myself.

My understanding is that if you plonk a minor chord on the D of C major, it's described as ii, not II. That may suggest there's no such thing as a II chord ...

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quote:

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Originally posted by Taliesin:
Ok... trying to understand.

wishandaprayer, you say that C7 is CEGB and you also said C E G Bb is a dominant 7th, but it's the dominant 7th of F, not C. ??

quote:

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What surprises me is that as I've heard the use of primary chords they normally refer to I, IV, V and secondary chords as ii, iii and vi (and possible vii diminished). So C7 which is the chord in question here would have no place in any of those grids.

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The grid had its top line as C E G Bb which as far as I'm aware, is the diminished 7th of C major. To use C E G B feels weird, which is presumably why people use diminished chords, flattening the 7th.

So is there a rule about diminished chords, and if so what is it? Why would the 7th note be included in the grid at all without a clear indication about what the rules for 7th notes are, and,

Aren't a lot of these things ambiguous these days? That sometimes it's obvious what the modulation is but sometimes it's only suggested, and since no one is consigned to hell anymore for using the wrong progressions, does it matter?

[ducks]

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quote:

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Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
I wonder how power chords (i.e. no 3rd) are listed? Vi? iI?

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They don't exist in common-practice harmony.

In lead sheets, they're usually called X5 (C5, D5, etc). I can't think of any examples between 1650 and 1900 of bare fifths in music, except for quasi-medieval or -primitive effects (e.g. Mussorgsky in Pictures). Chords are, by definition, at least three notes, so my guess is that most theorists would just claim that an open fifth is not a chord and has no harmonic content.

(Previous to the common-practice era it was common for compositions to end on an open fifth, because thirds were still thought of as dissonances. But that kind of harmony can't really be analyzed using common-practice tools, since it is based primarily on counterpoint and not chordal motion)
 

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Posted by Taliesin (# 14017) on :
 
Thank you.

I call an open fifth a drone, by the way.

Very useful in quasi folk music, and in drawing parallels to Indian music and other cultural concepts.

So. In the blessed grid, the first chord being C E G Bb means what?
 

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Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Taliesin:
dumbing down? in which sense?

The grid seems to point to a kind of harmony no child is going to use in their composition, unless they're composing choral works.?

Without some kind of figuring (as in, figured bass) how would anyone know you were playing the CII chord rather than modulating, and what happened to all those rules I usually work with, which is that chords 2, 3 and 6 sound minor and can give an interesting twist to a song?

The most basic chord progression kids are familiar with is 1, 5, 6, 4 (you'll notice I abandoned the use of roman numerals during my PGCE year) which is basis of a hundred common songs. see 4 chords

now this is dumbing down (I hate that expression)
It's teaching something useful now today, that might stick in their mind later.

Never has it occurred to me to remember that chord 6 is only minor if it's in little letters.
I think the grid was right, but had no point.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Taliesin:
Thank you.

I call an open fifth a drone, by the way.

Very useful in quasi folk music, and in drawing parallels to Indian music and other cultural concepts.

So. In the blessed grid, the first chord being C E G Bb means what?

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FooloftheShip:This is the problem with guitar chords - they've completely confused everyone

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LOL, Brazilian guitar chords are even more complex
 

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Posted by Fr Weber (# 13472) on :
 

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Originally posted by LeRoc:

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FooloftheShip:This is the problem with guitar chords - they've completely confused everyone

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LOL, Brazilian guitar chords are even more complex

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Fr Weber: I blame bossa nova with all its Em7-5 and A7-9 and D11+9...

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You put the blame in the right place! Many times I wish I had at least 6 fingers on my right hand
 

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Posted by Timothy the Obscure (# 292) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by orfeo:

quote:

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Originally posted by Taliesin:
dumbing down? in which sense?

The grid seems to point to a kind of harmony no child is going to use in their composition, unless they're composing choral works.?

Without some kind of figuring (as in, figured bass) how would anyone know you were playing the CII chord rather than modulating, and what happened to all those rules I usually work with, which is that chords 2, 3 and 6 sound minor and can give an interesting twist to a song?

The most basic chord progression kids are familiar with is 1, 5, 6, 4 (you'll notice I abandoned the use of roman numerals during my PGCE year) which is basis of a hundred common songs. see 4 chords

now this is dumbing down (I hate that expression)
It's teaching something useful now today, that might stick in their mind later.

Never has it occurred to me to remember that chord 6 is only minor if it's in little letters.
I think the grid was right, but had no point.

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Talking about 'modulation' in relation to a single chord is part of the problem, I think. Because a single chord doesn't constitute a modulation. It could just constitute local colouring. You can't actually say that you've modulated to another key until you have a cadence in that key that announces you've arrived.

So it's perfectly possible to have an F sharp or a B flat or something while you are 'in' C major. Just not as part of the standard chords that you give you your sense of key.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Timothy the Obscure:
It's common in jazz, not so much in classical.

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Originally posted by Timothy the Obscure:
A II chord in the key of C (D F# A) isn't really a modulation, just an altered chord, sometimes referred to as a secondary dominant (i.e., the dominant of the dominant). It's common in jazz, not so much in classical.

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Fr Weber: Actually secondary dominants happen all over the place in classical music...

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Originally posted by Taliesin:

The grid seems to point to a kind of harmony no child is going to use in their composition, unless they're composing choral works.?
[...]
I think the grid was right, but had no point.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Taliesin:
So. In the blessed grid, the first chord being C E G Bb means what?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Fr Weber:
Chords are, by definition, at least three notes, so my guess is that most theorists would just claim that an open fifth is not a chord and has no harmonic content.

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Fr Weber: The actual appearance of II (i.e. not functioning as a secondary dominant) is rare in common-practice classical music.

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Originally posted by ken:
The three-chord-trick strumming guitarist

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(who tends to memorise chord shapes rather than the notes the chord is made of - and I bet bet some keyboard players do as well) knows that if they normally play E-A-B7-E for a song in E major, they would play G-C-D7-G for the same song in G major.

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Or just slap a capo on the third fret and play E-A-B7-E

Seriously, transposing songs into a different key on the fly is something I've had to pick up very quickly while playing in the band at my new church. The phrase "hey, let's play this one in X instead" no longer fills me with utter terror, though there's still a fair amount of worry!

I genuinely have no idea what most of this thread is on about. But as I always say, I'm not a musician, I'm a guitarist!
 

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Posted by Dan Druff (# 17703) on :
 

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Originally posted by LeRoc:

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Fr Weber: I blame bossa nova with all its Em7-5 and A7-9 and D11+9...

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You put the blame in the right place! Many times I wish I had at least 6 fingers on my right hand

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Originally posted by Dan Druff:
When I was fifteen I was given as a present a book entitled "500 Advanced Chords for Guitar" of which probably 475 were unplayable without the use of extra fingers (gems such as E13b9aug11 were included).

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Originally posted by balaam:

quote:

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Originally posted by Dan Druff:
When I was fifteen I was given as a present a book entitled "500 Advanced Chords for Guitar" of which probably 475 were unplayable without the use of extra fingers (gems such as E13b9aug11 were included).

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Only 2 fingers needed for that one, not extra ones. Think of it as a A#7 with an E bass note.

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balaam: Only 2 fingers needed for that one, not extra ones. Think of it as a A#7 with an E bass note.

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From the account in the OP it looks as if the point of the exercise is to teach the kids to transpose accompaniments from one key to another. The three-chord-trick strumming guitarist (who tends to memorise chord shapes rather than the notes the chord is made of - and I bet bet some keyboard players do as well) knows that if they normally play E-A-B7-E for a song in E major, they would play G-C-D7-G for the same song in G major.

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Taliesin: The grid I keep talking about looked like a timetables square or similar.

I P C E G Bb
ii S D F# A C
iii S E G B D
IV P F A C Eb
V P
vi P
vii P

etc

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The 7th note of C major is not Bb. A chord that goes C E G Bb is the dominant 7th of F

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The teacher said, 'You have to flatten the 7th note' but no indication why.

Now S1 has brought back the marked homework, I can tell you that I made up the D# in chord ii (which would have made it chord II, as illustrated by my far better educated musical shipmates above. )

I can also reveal that the original work he allegedly copied from the screen and was told was correct (though we don't know how closely she looked) involved calling chord 2 'Db' chord 3 'Eb' and chord 6 'Ab' on refelction I think she called them D, E, and A minor and that got lost in transcription.

chord 7 was 'Bb' and God knows what that was meant to be as chord 7 is neither major nor minor but a diminished triad?

this page expresses chord 7 as Bo.

In chord one the B is flat - and typed as an example, so meant. In chord 4 the E is flat, and also meant, I'm sure. So the 7th note is flattened in chord I and chord IV. Can anyone explain to me why, and I'm really sorry if you already have, feel free to refer me to upthread.

The whole homework was called 'Adding harmony to a melody' and focused on primary and secondary chords, asking for the numerals of each, I, IV, V P and ii, iii, vi, vii S but not drawing attention to the fact that S numerals are expressed as lower case (?) which I'll admit I failed to notice before either. I now understand as a result of this thread that II in C major would be D F# A, and quite unusual except in specific styles.

the table for C was completed by the teacher on the board. Headings:
P or S, numeral, chord name, tonic note, median note, dominant note, 7th.

neither S1 nor I realised until this moment that 'chord name' should have been expressing whether on not the chord was major or minor. (or diminished triad...)

Below the grid a statement to be completed reads:

"chord vii is often confused with chord v because ..."

and S1 has written 'because they share common notes' but that seems true of at least two others, so there must be more significance than that.

Two other girds to be completed were for D major and F major, both of which failed to include any reference to the chord name (tonality) so was just a repeat of the tonic note, and the teacher corrected the unflattend 7th on chords I and IV by flattening them.

no other comment.

any clearer? It still matters because I'm going in to speak to her after half term, so I'd love to know reasonably confident about what I'm going to say! The meeting isn't 'about' this, it's because she wants me to accompany some exam recordings, and discuss exam boards, so it's teaching colleague meeting, not irate or anxious parent.
 

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Posted by Taliesin (# 14017) on :
 
One last attempt to request clarity before meeting the teacher... the typo in my last message should have read, I'd love to be reasonably confident...
 

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Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :
 
I think I understand what the teacher was trying to do here. S/he started out with the triads based on the major scale:

I: C-E-G
ii: D-F-A
iii: E-G-B
IV: F-A-C
V: G-B-D
vi: A-C-E

Then, s/he added more harmony by putting a minor 7th on top of all the triads. Of course s/he can do that, but this means that you can't use the Roman numeral notation very well anymore. This is because for some of the notes, the minor 7th is outside of the C major scale.

quote:

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Taliesin: this page expresses chord 7 as Bo.

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