Ship of Fools: Getting the answer by divination

Thread: Getting the answer by divination Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by Percy B (# 17238) on :

Today I was tempted to get an answer to a problem by sticking my finger randomly in the Bible and seeing if that helped!

At least it could have taken my thoughts to a different place in facing the problem I was wrestling with, and that could have helped.

Perhaps a pack of Tarot cards could have helped.

I seem to remember reading some christians used to do the random Bible thing in a more serious way than I was thinking of doing today.

Do you use what I might here call random ways for changing a mind set, or for telling the future?

Posted by Porridge (# 15405) on :

Magic 8 Ball?

Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :

Not since being stuck in a youth hostel in the middle-east where the only book in English was Luke Rhinehart's The Dice Man: it put me off the idea of random decisions/ choices for life. [Ultra confused]

Posted by Jane R (# 331) on :

[Eek!]

Have you been reading 'The Ash Tree' by M. R. James, by any chance?

It doesn't work anyway - I just tried it and at my first attempt I got a blank page at the end of Malachi.

...actually, my mind WAS blank when I opened my Bible... [Paranoid]

Posted by Earwig (# 12057) on :

I often flip a coin to help me make up my mind on a decision. And if I don't like the decision the coin's made, I know what it is I really wated to do all along!

Posted by Galilit (# 16470) on :

Not exactly the same but I gave a close friend a (brand new) copy of a favourite book and he opened it randomly to my absolute favourite passage.
So we tried it immediately with a Bible and it didn't work at all!

Posted by Higgs Bosun (# 16582) on :

Just in case no-one else adds this, there is the often told story of the man who used the "prod the bible", and found, in succession: Matt. 27:5, Luke 10:37 and John 13:27.

Posted by Firenze (# 619) on :

It is a thing for which I now have sufficient observational data to accept as fact, that we know at least our personal future. Accessing this knowledge is another matter. It leaks through in dreams, or in those moments when you think of someone and the phone rings and it's them, or of some unlikely thing and then you read or see or hear about that very same...

Divinatory tools - dice, coins, cards, whatever - will reflect back to you both what you unconsciously know and what you wish. The more elaborate, like the Tarot, can give you a rich vocabulary to build a whole narrative of your life.

But it is when a thing is really vital to you that the perception will be clearest. And it may not be the answer you want.

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

So if you got 'Judas went and hanged himself', is that divination?

Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:

But it is when a thing is really vital to you that the perception will be clearest. And it may not be the answer you want.

Even beyond the notion of tarot, etc. this strikes me as bunk. Its the sort of thing we want to be true, even with the "may not be the answer you want" caveat. It "sounds right" and fits our theories of how the world works. But, at least in my own experience, it doesn't fit my (our?) actual experience. The more skin in the game, the closer I am to the situation, the less able I am to perceive clearly. This, I think, is why we so often see community as an aid to discernment in both Scripture and tradition-- because often those outside the situation can see clearly what is lost for us. I think of Samuel being woken in the night by the Lord-- Samuel is the one God is talking to, but he can't perceive it-- it takes Eli to point out to him what is really happening.

How 'bout the rest of you-- do other shipmates experience discernment/intuition differently?

[ 22. May 2013, 16:41: Message edited by: cliffdweller ]

Posted by Poppy (# 2000) on :

quote:
Originally posted by leo:
So if you got 'Judas went and hanged himself', is that divination?

That is a card that often comes out when I've used the Jesus Deck at mind, body and spirit fairs. The conversation often ends up about about depression, although not always.

Posted by Percy B (# 17238) on :

By the way whats the name for divination through randomly sticking a finger in the Bible?

[Smile]

Posted by Firenze (# 619) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Percy B:
By the way whats the name for divination through randomly sticking a finger in the Bible?

Bibliomancy.

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :

Also Bible-Dippin'

Posted by Firenze (# 619) on :

quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:

quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:

But it is when a thing is really vital to you that the perception will be clearest. And it may not be the answer you want.
Even beyond the notion of tarot, etc. this strikes me as bunk. Its the sort of thing we want to be true, even with the "may not be the answer you want" caveat. It "sounds right" and fits our theories of how the world works. But, at least in my own experience, it doesn't fit my (our?) actual experience. The more skin in the game, the closer I am to the situation, the less able I am to perceive clearly.

Well, yes and no. I'm not at my most lucid at the moment, on account of the sinuses full of hot cement.

I agree that a strong wish for answer X will usually fry the intuitive sense. But occasionally - and disconcertingly - the divinatory method (I've had it happen with both I Ching and Tarot) will give an answer of startling pertinence/accuracy. I still think of it as discovering what I myself, at some level, know.

Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :

You could always copy Gideon and set a fleece test.

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :

That guy was way too hard to please.

Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :

Sortes bibliacae (sp?)

Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
You could always copy Gideon and set a fleece test.

Apparently this is actually quite a normal method for friends from a charismatic background - can some charismatics on here say if they've come across it before? They call it a 'fleece test' but it's any kind of sign from God.

Posted by Kaplan Corday (# 16119) on :

Other examples of "divinely guided chance" are the Urim and Thummim in the OT; casting of lots by the apostles in the NT, and many centuries later by the Moravians; and John Newton's purchase of lottery tickets.

Posted by Pure Sunshine (# 11904) on :

Inspired by this thread, I got out the nearest work of Scripture to me (a new testament and psalms) and picked a verse at random:

"Bring the fatted calf and kill it; let's have a feast and celebrate."

Hopefully that's a sign that I'm going to get the job I was interviewed for yesterday ... [Biased]

Posted by kaytee (# 3482) on :

I used to read tarot cards and found it helpful to understand my feelings (something that I struggle with sometimes). The cards are physical, visual things, and so they were a good way to get my feelings 'out there' as opposed to stuck inside my head.

The process of trying to create a narrative or overall meaning from the cards I picked seemed to help me come to an understanding, or reach a decision.

For me, divination is rather a 'strong' term that implies an objective truth. For me, it was more of a psychological tool. Which is not to say that what I discovered was not true, but it was more important to me that it was helpful.

Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
Other examples of "divinely guided chance" are the Urim and Thummim in the OT; casting of lots by the apostles in the NT, and many centuries later by the Moravians; and John Newton's purchase of lottery tickets.

Some commentators have noted that "mediated discernment" is common throughout the OT and shows up in Acts 1, but is nowhere found after Acts 2. The suggestion is that with the coming of the Spirit such "mediated" means are no longer necessary, we can now seek wisdom directly, as per James 1:5.

Posted by TurquoiseTastic (# 8978) on :

But "divination" was always prohibited in the OT, wasn't it? What made drawing lots different and permissible in OT eyes?

Posted by Pure Sunshine (# 11904) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Pure Sunshine:
Inspired by this thread, I got out the nearest work of Scripture to me (a new testament and psalms) and picked a verse at random:

"Bring the fatted calf and kill it; let's have a feast and celebrate."

Hopefully that's a sign that I'm going to get the job I was interviewed for yesterday ...

I didn't. Shows how well that works ...

Posted by Carex (# 9643) on :

But did you have the feast as you were directed to do by the passage?

Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :

quote:
Originally posted by TurquoiseTastic:
But "divination" was always prohibited in the OT, wasn't it? What made drawing lots different and permissible in OT eyes?

Probably who you're asking. Are you asking "the spirits" or are you asking The Spirit?

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :

For those without a Bible handy...

Posted by Organ Builder (# 12478) on :

Well, Kelly, I tried your link and got the following:

Thus saith the Lord GOD to Tyrus; Shall not the isles shake at the sound of thy fall, when the wounded cry, when the slaughter is made in the midst of thee? - Ezekiel 26:15

It might have sent chills up my spine if I had gotten it yesterday, with the events in London but one day later I have no clue what this might portend.

Still--that's a fun website to keep in mind, but I'll probably burn in Hell because I'm bookmarking it for all the wrong reasons.

Posted by Firenze (# 619) on :

Now therefore let me alone, that my wrath may wax hot against them, and that I may consume them: and I will make of thee a great nation.

The first five words definitely find an echo in my heart. But not all the hot wax nation building.

Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :

I dipped twice, and both were nasties.

So I've gone to my grandparents' blessing box, and got "The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much" James 5: 16

Which oddly is relevant to something I nearly posted on here the other day. But I know that all except two of the quotes in the box are encouraging, because I once unrolled all the little scrolls and read them all at one go. (The two are about paying one's dues to God, and are a bit threatening).

In the Bible I got Sirach (I've got the Apocrypha) on repaying neighbours from whom one has borrowed - must give back that Python box set.

Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :

Bible dipper must be set for nasty fun-- at least I hope so, because I got 4 nasties in a row (including the awesome "pisseth against a wall" passage). If it's prophetic I'm really in for it...

Posted by Percy B (# 17238) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
For those without a Bible handy...

What fun! And who on earth takes the time and effort to make that website!

Thanks Kelly
[Smile]

Posted by kaytee (# 3482) on :

If you really need a definite Yes or No answer, this is fun. Plus, it has the advantage that you can easily test whether it's giving you true answers!

That website also has I Ching, Tarot and other things of that ilk, if you're interested.

Posted by Bob Two-Owls (# 9680) on :

quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
Bible dipper must be set for nasty fun-- at least I hope so, because I got 4 nasties in a row

Still clicking at getting smiting, hardening of hearts and turning away from the Lord. Nothing good so far so I really hope it is all hogwash on the divinatory front!

Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :

I don't think divination is a good way for getting answers. I flipped a coin a couple of years ago, and it told me not to get involved in it.

[ 24. May 2013, 10:56: Message edited by: LeRoc ]

Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :

quote:
Kelly Alves: For those without a Bible handy...

I got five nasties in a row! I have a slight suspicion that these people have stacked the deck a bit.

Posted by Firenze (# 619) on :

There is obviously a need for some kind of regulatory authority for oracles - OffDelph?

Very possibly a Witch Guide rating them for accuracy, reliability and energy efficiency (ie is the extra effort involved in disembowelling a chicken as against tossing a few yarrow sticks repaid by an increase in spot-oness?)

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
For those without a Bible handy...

Brilliant!

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

quote:
Originally posted by kaytee:
I used to read tarot cards and found it helpful to understand my feelings (something that I struggle with sometimes). The cards are physical, visual things, and so they were a good way to get my feelings 'out there' as opposed to stuck inside my head.

The process of trying to create a narrative or overall meaning from the cards I picked seemed to help me come to an understanding, or reach a decision.

For me, divination is rather a 'strong' term that implies an objective truth. For me, it was more of a psychological tool. Which is not to say that what I discovered was not true, but it was more important to me that it was helpful.

Tarot, used properly, is not divination at all - it is, as you say, a means towards insight into one's feelings.

Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :

quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:

quote:
Kelly Alves: For those without a Bible handy...
I got five nasties in a row! I have a slight suspicion that these people have stacked the deck a bit.

I have to admit to a bit of skewed reporting. After the two nasties, the blessings box and the Bible, and posting, I went back to the dipper and got something harmless, but without much meaning to me, and chose not to come back and post it. Can't remember it. But it obviously isn't exclusively nasty.

[ 24. May 2013, 17:02: Message edited by: Penny S ]

Posted by Graven Image (# 8755) on :

Celtic Oracles

I have used this book once a month for a number of years. Not that it gives you answers, ( I don't believe anything does) but it does open my mind to new ways of viewing my life in the coming month. I have found it very helpful.

Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :

It's never positive, though, IME of about 50 tries. It seems in fact a very subtle attempt to make the Bible and those who value it look uniformly nuts, boring, or angry. The rest of the site seems to bear this out. I'm sorry about it, as it would make awesome humor if it didn't seem to be pushing an agenda. Oh well, I can still use it that way.

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :

Either that, or like Jules in Pulp Fiction, the site designer thought the frothing judgement stuff sounded like "a cold-blooded thing to say to a motherf---er before [you] popped a cap in his ass." (i.e, trying too hard to sound badass.) I kind of found it funny.

Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :

It is funny. But the other pages kind of give the agenda away IMHO. Shame.

Besides, it would be even better if they'd focus more on, well, the funny bits-- like that bit where everybody gets told to have a shovel handy for trips to the crapper. Instead of 90% death and disaster.

Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :

This is my last collection.

Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice: - Ephesians 4:31

Is this man Coniah a despised broken idol? is he a vessel wherein is no pleasure? wherefore are they cast out, he and his seed, and are cast into a land which they know not? - Jeremiah 22:28

They took their sheep, and their oxen, and their asses, and that which was in the city, and that which was in the field, - Genesis 34:28

Then he called hastily unto the young man his armourbearer, and said unto him, Draw thy sword, and slay me, that men say not of me, A women slew him. And his young man thrust him through, and he died. - Judges 9:54

But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth: with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked. - Isaiah 11:4

Not entirely nasty - but I think they have set up an algorithm which searches for particular words, and then shows the verses without human interference. The first one says the opposite of what the collection of nasty words might suggest to a computer.

[ 26. May 2013, 12:07: Message edited by: Penny S ]

Posted by Firenze (# 619) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
they have set up an algorithm

Therein lies the important difference. The idea of divination is, surely, that there is no algorithm. Or, if there is, it has been written by GodFate/Chance/Ancestral Voices/Inner Wisdom - or whatever it is you think you are accessing by your chosen means.

Posted by Yonatan (# 11091) on :

Just dipped via the website: "So and more also do God unto the enemies of David, if I leave of all that pertain to him by the morning light any that pisseth against the wall. - 1 Samuel 25:22"

Hmmmmmmm, I'm more of a "go into a toilet, lock the door and remember to put the seat down" kinda guy.

Posted by duchess (# 2764) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Porridge:
Magic 8 Ball?

You rang? I used to have a persona on SoF where I used a Magic 8 ball to torture shipmates...ahhhh, memories.

My own view is that God works in mysterious ways. He is not at the whims of us human beings, but mystical and magical, dare I say and use those terms. I am in awe of Him. We can get His leading a multitude of ways. He may let us use strange ways like tea leaves...but who is to say He'll keep it going on? I dunno.

For me, I get strange dreams that lead me to know things or at least prepare for them. My blond ex-bf left me after I dreamt of a dark haired boyfriend (who I still have never met! LOL). In this dream, I knew I would be happier without him, with this new man, and was unhappy to wake up to my reality.

Most of my strange revealings from God were not forced but stumbled upon. I still get them. But I tend to keep them private. I have shared things with people and then when they happen, I have experienced people wanting more. I can't do that on purpose most times.

So for me, God tends to humble me by making me "stand-by" rather than be "at-the-ready" with diviation.

[Magic 8 ball sez bad grammar must go...cleaned it up]

[ 26. May 2013, 17:07: Message edited by: duchess ]

Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :

Yonatan, I suspect that the writer of that verse believed that pissing against the wall could be a territorial activity - at least, that's what I've seen around South London, especially where the marks are higher up the wall than usual.

I'm not sure, though, about the men who would come out of the bar next door (which had a loo), in their cars, stop by our drive, and anoint our garden wall. I did get to stop one once, by coming round the corner and addressing him in best teacher mode, loudly saying "That isn't very nice, is it?". There wasn't nearly as big a mark as usual.

Posted by Firenze (# 619) on :

An electric fence would have given them pause... (Water being a conductor 'n' that).

Posted by Percy B (# 17238) on :

In the recesses of my memory I seem to remember a novel where a character got guidance by sticking his finger into the works of SirnWalter Scott.

Anyone know this story and can help by are minding me of it
[Smile]

Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :

Whoever it was would have had a bit of a job on his hands with about 30 novels to choose from plus all Scott's other works.

I went through several packs of Tarot cards before finding one that "clicked" and which worked for me. Some packs I simply couldn't get on with at all. I don't use it much, just to get some illumination on a particular situation from time to time.

I've tried a variety of other things including I Ching, the runes, coins etc etc, but prefer the cards as a useful method of visual stimulus.

Sometimes divination can be useful in clarifying a decision simply because it makes the decision for you, and if your immediate reaction to that decision is then disappointment rather than relief, you have then realized that you did indeed have a preference.

Posted by Pure Sunshine (# 11904) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Carex:
But did you have the feast as you were directed to do by the passage?

I did not. But then (pending confirmation, which I should be getting tomorrow) it seems that my temp agency have got me another job, which should last about the same length of time - admittedly only 4-6 weeks, but it's a step up!!

Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
An electric fence would have given them pause... (Water being a conductor 'n' that).

The thought crossed my mind. As did finding a dye which would fluoresce green when hit with the stuff.

Back to thread - I did receive a quite strong warning about this sort of activity once. I have a friend who sometimes feels strongly moved to consult the Bible about things that trouble him, and finds guidance. I was deeply concerned about a family member's troubles, and praying in a church when I found a similar urge, which I followed by walking to the lectern. The passage I read could not have been more relevant to the issue, was something I had no idea was in the OT at all, and was something which, had I based any action on, would have led to something completely dire. The true message being, I feel, like the message here if one accidentally presses the edit icon instead of the quote - this isn't your business.
Something not entirely different with the dipper thing, yesterday. I'm going to stop regarding it as a joke, and leave it be.

Posted by Firenze (# 619) on :

Oh I agree. As I said up thread, you occasionally get an Extremely Pointed response. (One I remember was when I was trying to discover if a course of study I was pursuing would land me a job: it was basically 'Quit faffing about with oracles and do some work').

Posted by que sais-je (# 17185) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:

quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
they have set up an algorithm
Therein lies the important difference. The idea of divination is, surely, that there is no algorithm. Or, if there is, it has been written by GodFate/Chance/Ancestral Voices/Inner Wisdom - or whatever it is you think you are accessing by your chosen means.

I agree but, being old, can remember an early Russian computer which generated random numbers really randomly by measuring current fluctuations in a leaky thermionic valve (why? - it was the 60s, even Russians were weird). So if that were used in the algorithm would it be divination? OK with Chance I guess, God definitely, Ancestral Voices probably not - I doubt if any of mine could hex a valve.

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