quote:

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Originally posted by Porridge:
That's been my experience, in a range reaching from simply ignoring us to outright hostility. I've experienced this myself. and have observed it happening to others. It's a deeply intransigent form of misogyny.

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quote:

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Originally posted by the giant cheeseburger:
It's a form of misogyny that is matched by an equal level of misandry - single men are also pushed to the margins in white middle class churches.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Bob Two-Owls:

quote:

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Originally posted by the giant cheeseburger:
It's a form of misogyny that is matched by an equal level of misandry - single men are also pushed to the margins in white middle class churches.

---

Yes, it seems to apply to all singletons. I have been told that "I wasn't doing my duty to God" and that I shouldn't work with or talk to married women in the Church community without their husbands being present. Its flattering but I'm sure that most if not all women could actually control themselves in my presence.

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WTF???

 

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Posted by Anselmina (# 3032) on :
 
I've never been good-looking enough to be considered a threat to anyone's coupledom so I can't comment on that. But I think it is true that single people can tread a different path. Being part of the bellringing team, or the Sunday School or choir might give a single person a good sense of belonging, and being valued. Single widows - especially female - may possibly have a number of contemporaries at church who remember their spouses, and belong to the same social groups etc,. Though, OTOH, I know that many widows/widowers, too, often feel they are too easily excluded from many things as well, when their partner dies. It must be incredibly difficult to immerse onself as a lone person, in even a familiar congregation, when you've been so used to your partner at your side for so long.

I've noticed that the people who were more likely to befriend me in the sense of hospitality and caring, would be older couples of, say, my parents' generation. Younger couples rarely if ever took more than a Sunday morning interest, friendly as that might be. I have to be fair, though to a couple of families who 'took me in' from time to time for meals with their family and treated me like a much wanted guest (long before ordination).

And, I would further amend that to say that in a couple of evangelical churches, of my experience, there was a much more inclusive feel to the congregation towards single people. More proactive stuff going on that included everyone, not just couples. Maybe the theology of the individual, identifiable with some forms of evangelicalism, is a positive thing there?

I have to say, if I had been a cook, or confident of my own hospitality skills, which I'm not, I suppose I could've invited others round, rather than waiting for the invites from others! But, pre-ordination I only ever lived in tiny bed-sit rooms and grotty flats which didn't make it possible to host get-togethers. And since ordination - though I've had a few forays into offering half-cooked chicken, or basic salad and bread lunches - home is basically a church office, covered in dog-hair!

(There seems to be a slightly different approach in this part of Ireland to singles - in that so many people, especially male farmers, are single. It's not really unusual, and their relatives and friends usually keep a close eye on them. Families are very involved here, and have lived here for ever, so most congregations rather resemble family reunions. )
 

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Posted by The Great Gumby (# 10989) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
I think it's a reflection of the way that churches are really, really bad at moving out of their comfort zones and engaging with folks who aren't PLU (People Like Us).

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quote:

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Originally posted by Bob Two-Owls:
Yes, it seems to apply to all singletons. I have been told that "I wasn't doing my duty to God" and that I shouldn't work with or talk to married women in the Church community without their husbands being present. Its flattering but I'm sure that most if not all women could actually control themselves in my presence.

---

LOL! But, seriously, what a load of judgmental, sexist crap. Sorry you were subjected to that. Why oh why do some churches insist on shooting their own, eh?

Well, these findings are depressing but not surprising. Having said that, I've never felt stigmatised as a single Christian woman in my circles.

However, there is an elephant in the room: sexuality. Specifically, celibate sexuality. I am currently committed to celibacy - not entirely through lack of opportunity to be otherwise, my vanity compels me to point out - but it seems to be blithely assumed by many evangelical Christians that their fellows who are celibates (for whatever reason, there are many variables) calmly sail through hormonal waters completely untroubled by a smidgeon of lust. (What planet do people live on? )

We've moved from being a culture that once judged people harshly for NOT being virgins (actually, make that women - it was never regarded as a big deal for men). And that is a good thing, because being a non-virgin is not the be-all and end-all and people certainly shouldn't be pilloried for it. But we've now become a culture where if someone actually takes biblical teaching on sexuality seriously, i.e. if they really are committed to the idea that they won't have sex before they are covenantally bound to another in marriage ... well, there is clearly something wrong with them.

I say our culture is out of whack.

Feminism has helped me in this regard: I can say my celibacy is a valid choice (which it is). So then, respect someone's choice. Don't assume they're weird, or pathological, or have never grown up, just because they're not having sex.

Over the years, I've worked out my own praxis on these issues, because I've yet to hear a helpful, rounded, grounded sermon on singleness and sexuality from any church I've ever attended. Christian singles are, IMO, left to sink or swim on their own.
 

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Posted by duchess (# 2764) on :
 
I've gone out of my way as a single woman, not to be alone with a married man as to respect the wife, but I've still experienced this occasionally...the wife acting awkward around me. (Mainly in music, when I've practice singing with just the husband around, sometimes when nobody else shows up for worship music practice and the show must go on, you end up practicing the worship music with just the two of you). Only once did it get to me, the wife acting like I was out to get her husband. I ended up reaching out to her a lot and that seemed to quell the fears. It doesn't happen that often though. I figure their relationship must lack good communication when it does. I am back in the church I grew up in and they know me well enough there I think to not be silly like that.

[ 25. April 2013, 12:47: Message edited by: duchess ]
 

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Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :
 
It is not only Christians. People seem to have difficulty processing, or trusting, singleness past a certain age. One must be in, or pursuing, a relationship at all times. Therefore those who are not are highly suspect. Either something is amiss or after anything with a pulse.
Funny thing, IME, marriage quickly creates an amnesia around what it was like to be single.
 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
I think Laurelin is onto something.

I'd also suggest that there is a very unhealthy 'goldfish bowl' atmosphere in certain types of fellowship - particularly those which attract students or young, single professionals. They can't be seen to even be talking to someone of the opposite sex without the rest of the church showing a prurient interest or thinking that they're going to be walking down the aisle within the next five minutes ...

I s'pose this is inevitable to a certain extent. After all, we wouldn't have any Jane Austen novels if courtship and all that goes with it wasn't of interest ...

I don't know what you do about it, though.

I've seen single people of both sexes marginalised in church settings. I'm not sure whether it's worse for either sex, just different.
 

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Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I think Laurelin is onto something.

I'd also suggest that there is a very unhealthy 'goldfish bowl' atmosphere in certain types of fellowship - particularly those which attract students or young, single professionals. They can't be seen to even be talking to someone of the opposite sex without the rest of the church showing a prurient interest or thinking that they're going to be walking down the aisle within the next five minutes ...

I s'pose this is inevitable to a certain extent. After all, we wouldn't have any Jane Austen novels if courtship and all that goes with it wasn't of interest ...

I don't know what you do about it, though.

I've seen single people of both sexes marginalised in church settings. I'm not sure whether it's worse for either sex, just different.

---

quote:

---

As for the actions/attitudes of some paranoid women who see other women as would-be husband stealers - there is absolutely nothing to be done to make these people less objectionable and less paranoid.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by ken:
I'm not sure that churches are any different from society in general in this. I can't speak for women, not being one, but middle-aged and older single men are pretty much ignored everywhere. The general feeling is that any man who is single above the age of about mid-30s must either be sexually perverted, or more likely just a pathetic loser that no-one could fancy.

To be honest, churches are probably more tolerant than many other places of single men. Tolerant rather than welcoming I think. But then no-where much is welcoming for older men on their own, except maybe pubs.

And every now and again some brain-dead preacher trots out that trite old sermon about the supposed benefits of singleness and you find yourself wanting to bore their eyeballs out with hot pokers, slowly. And then preach to them about the positive side of blindness.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by The Great Gumby:

It occurs to me that we might also be nearing a sort of sweet spot for singles, where there are enough in a given church to form their own sub-community, like the young families or OAPs. Once there's a critical mass, it's much harder to ignore an entire group.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by lilBuddha:
More that women are naturally vile temptresses that innocent males cannot resist. At least until the magical ring of control is placed upon their finger.

---

The Saudis have solved this. Wear a veil.
 

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Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on :
 
Well, I'm at the stage when all my Christian friends in my age group are getting married (20-25, usually straight out of uni). I've found in more evangelical churches that have 'women's ministry' events, it's all about marriage and parenthood. At my AffCath church now, the majority of the congregation are elderly with many widows, and I feel rather less alone amongst them - but possibly since I now seem to have a whole congregation of new adopted grandparents

Certainly I found being single much more difficult in an evangelical church full of students and young professionals because as has been said upthread, everyone expects the young people to pair off with each other. I've been to Vineyard churches that were like cattle markets.
 

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Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
Being single when everyone else is married is not a problem confined to church but, yes, sometimes one can feel kind of left out, especially if you're not single by choice. Quite what the answer is, I don't know. I'm not sure it's deliberate it's probably just that couples tend to socialise with other couples.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by cliffdweller:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
Being single when everyone else is married is not a problem confined to church but, yes, sometimes one can feel kind of left out, especially if you're not single by choice. Quite what the answer is, I don't know. I'm not sure it's deliberate it's probably just that couples tend to socialise with other couples.

---

Just to present a different perspective and not at all to discount your experience, it sometimes seems to me that singles imagine we married-with-children couples have a much more interesting social life than we actually do. Sitcoms not withstanding, most of us rarely get an evening out or entertain in our homes. We probably should-- it would be a great act of hospitality, and an enjoyable thing to do. But know that most of us don't. Most of us are up to our ears in supervising homework and ferrying kids to soccer practice and trying to pay the bills. Indeed, the single friends I have at church seem to me to have a much, much richer social life than I've had in years. Obviously, YMMV, and there may be real barriers/exclusion that I don't see because I'm too absorbed in My Own Little World (see above). But honestly, you're not missing out on a whole lot unless you want to come over to my house and negotiate another round of sibling disputes over who got the bigger slice of pizza.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
Singles are distrusted because they aren't "one of us" and are obviously either homewreckers or gay/lesbian,

---

Even better if you can aspire to be both.

 

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Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :
 
(Whispers) Karl, cliffdweller is an innie, not an outie.
 

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Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by lilBuddha:
(Whispers) Karl, cliffdweller is an innie, not an outie.

---

Ach, ah cannae tell from t'intertubes, ye ken.
 

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Posted by Laurelin (# 17211) on :
 
I have never suffered such insensitive, crass treatment as many of you obviously have.

And I know that married life is not a bed of roses. I know this. I'm not a clueless young maiden in a Jane Austen novel.

But.

quote:

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Originally posted by Porridge:
To this day, I cannot understand the church's attitude. The church gained several new members as a result of the singles group. AFAIK, all those members left when the single group fell apart for lack of support from the church.

---

This confirms what I think: that many Christian singles are simply left to sink or swim on their own.

*shakes head*
 

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Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by lilBuddha:
(Whispers) Karl, cliffdweller is an innie, not an outie.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by orfeo:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
Singles are distrusted because they aren't "one of us" and are obviously either homewreckers or gay/lesbian,

---

Even better if you can aspire to be both.

---

What, gay and lesbian?
 

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Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Laurelin:

However, there is an elephant in the room: sexuality. [...] I've yet to hear a helpful, rounded, grounded sermon on singleness and sexuality from any church I've ever attended. Christian singles are, IMO, left to sink or swim on their own.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:

quote:

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Originally posted by cliffdweller:
Just to present a different perspective and not at all to discount your experience, it sometimes seems to me that singles imagine we married-with-children couples have a much more interesting social life than we actually do. Sitcoms not withstanding, most of us rarely get an evening out or entertain in our homes.

---

What he said.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Porridge:
Within two months the singles group was kaput. No one, laity or clergy, from the church ever called to ask how I was doing, or offered the slightest help to the folks who had agreed to take on the tasks I'd had to delegate.

To this day, I cannot understand the church's attitude. The church gained several new members as a result of the singles group. AFAIK, all those members left when the single group fell apart for lack of support from the church.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Great Gumby:
It occurs to me that we might also be nearing a sort of sweet spot for singles, where there are enough in a given church to form their own sub-community, like the young families or OAPs.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Avila:
As the married become widows, the lifelong singles and the divorcee who has felt that label heavily over years all merge into one category of those who will lunch alone.

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(*) For values of "married" that include pretty much any long-term sexual relationship, or relationship presumed to be sexual by people not in it. The nature of the paperwork doesn't really matter, and hasn't really mattered in my lifetime. The number and gender of the participants matters less than it did and if things go on as they have been, they also might soon stop mattering at all.
 

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Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :
 
Back in my salad days, when I realised that I was going to be single ad infinitum, I started to try and find what was advised for such people.

(Outside church, As soon as my colleagues got married, they switched to having dinner parties with even numbers from irregular parties. There were a number of odd occurrences when couples refused invitations from me in response to theirs to me. it gets dispiriting, that.)

In my own group, in the book which has suggestions about life, the piece on the single life was pretty sparse and unhelpful. It had suggestions such as volunteeering to look after the children during the meeting. Duh! What had I been doing all week? What did I need a rest from on Sunday? don't such adults qualify to take a full part in the worship of adults?

The particular meeting did have a lot of shared lunches and such events where everyone was treated as equals, and I never felt left out, despite the numbers of families. The group is now smaller, so less socialising.

Worse was a book I came across in a Durham Christian bookshop. (I'm open to help from what ever source - or at least, I though I was.) This came up with a set of really weird stuff. After advising the single not to be alone with anyone of the opposite sex, and especially not horizontally, even in public as on beaches or in parks, it went off into fairy land as far as single women were concerned.

Apparently, while a single man can relate directly to God, a woman MUST have a man as her head, even if she is not married. So, it advised, a single woman must seek out a happily married couple where the man will agree to be her head for spiritual matters.

And they wonder why women regard single woman as a threat to their marriage?
 

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Posted by Leorning Cniht (# 17564) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by cliffdweller:
Sitcoms not withstanding, most of us rarely get an evening out or entertain in our homes. We probably should-- it would be a great act of hospitality, and an enjoyable thing to do. But know that most of us don't.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by cliffdweller:
hey, if I took a break from the soccer carpooling/ laundry sorting/ homework supervising/ snotty nose wiping/ permission slip signing/ bake sale baking etc etc etc from time to time and actually ventured out into the outside world that I hear rumors may exist, maybe my innie/outie-ness would be a bit more evident.... [/QB]

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quote:

---

Originally posted by ken:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Laurelin:

quote:

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Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by cliffdweller:
[qb] Just to present a different perspective and not at all to discount your experience, it sometimes seems to me that singles imagine we married-with-children couples have a much more interesting social life than we actually do. Sitcoms not withstanding, most of us rarely get an evening out or entertain in our homes.

---

What he said.

---

Well I was married-with-a-child once, and then I was single-with-a-child. And now I am single and living on my own. And before all that I was single-but-not-yet-married. And each state has different problems. (And each state has some of the same ones as well) But the particular problem we're talking about here, social acceptance, is easier for married-with-children than for divorced. Very much so. And I suspect its even harder for the never-married (*) No-one likes a loser, and if you have no sexual relationships at all you are assumed to be a massive loser.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by HCH:
While the title of the thread refers to single women, the article seems to refer to single adults of both sexes. Is this phenomenon simply noticed more when the single folk are female? Are the married women supposedly more insecure than their husbands?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by HCH:
While the title of the thread refers to single women, the article seems to refer to single adults of both sexes. Is this phenomenon simply noticed more when the single folk are female? Are the married women supposedly more insecure than their husbands?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Porridge:
Call me picky, but I have never understood why any sane woman would WANT a married guy willing to cheat on his wife. What's there to keep him from cheating on me, too? Pfft.

If the wives are that insecure, I'd guess the relevant husbands had form. I'd steer clear of both spouses.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Penny S:
Worse was a book I came across in a Durham Christian bookshop. (I'm open to help from what ever source - or at least, I though I was.) This came up with a set of really weird stuff. After advising the single not to be alone with anyone of the opposite sex, and especially not horizontally, even in public as on beaches or in parks, it went off into fairy land as far as single women were concerned.

Apparently, while a single man can relate directly to God, a woman MUST have a man as her head, even if she is not married. So, it advised, a single woman must seek out a happily married couple where the man will agree to be her head for spiritual matters.

---

I'm a man but my reflexive gut reaction to that is

[ 26. April 2013, 00:54: Message edited by: malik3000 ]
 

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Posted by malik3000 (# 11437) on :
 
I had never been able to say why when I first happened upon my present parish I seemingly instinctively found it to be so welcoming. except that I felt that there was an extremely welcoming spirit about the place. But reading this thread gives me a little insight into why I have felt this to be so. I realise that I have observed (and felt) the phenomena described in this thread in other congregations (not all) and i haven't found it to be the case where I am now.

I think the spirit of exclusion of single people as described above is probably stronger in suburban congregations. Ours is a downtown congregation of people of all age groups and marital or non-marital status, in family groups and not in family groups, many from the central city, but in addition there are more than a few members with families from the suburbs who have made the conscious decision to be here. I feel fortunate to be where I am now.

BTW IMHO the hyper-family emphasis is a reflection of the larger society. In the commercialised wider society and particularly in the mass media everything is "family-family-family". When an event is described as being "fun for the whole family" AFAICS what it really means is that it's fun for children, not for adults
 

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Posted by piglet (# 11803) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Bob Two-Owls:
... I shouldn't work with or talk to married women in the Church community without their husbands being present ...

---

Blimey, I think you're going to the wrong sort of church.

I can't really speak from experience (well, not recent anyway - I've been married for nearly 25 years) but I can think of a couple of single women (one single, 30s, one divorced, 40s) in our congregation who regard us as their family. One has involved herself by being a deputy warden and sidesperson, the other sings in the choir and acts as a tour guide.

I'd be very surprised if either of them felt that they were isolated, but then ours is a particularly friendly shack.
 

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Posted by Gwai (# 11076) on :
 
For those in that kind of horrid church, I would totally move. I'm married and the whole time I've been there, some of the people I talk to and socialize with most have been single, and not all the same single people either.
 

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Posted by Ariston (# 10894) on :
 
The thing that bugs me about being the young single man at church is not the assumption that you must get married—for a significant portion of our congregation, getting married wasn't even an option until just over a year ago—but rather the assumption that there's someone convenient sitting next to you in the pew that you're comfortable with, someone to help you break the ice with people over coffee in the church basement, and someone to give you that little extra air of following along on the Christian Life Plan. When the minister asks you to turn to the person next to you and share your innermost desires for the world and what you most want to pray for, that's downright traumatizing for quiet, shy introverts next to strangers—but probably not going to result in anything your girlfriend doesn't already know about you. Plus, since Christians (and religious people in general) tend to marry/pair up earlier, it does seem a bit odd to be my age without even a steady girlfriend to hold the hymnal for.

Also odd is the idea that churches are meet markets for single folks. When I'm in church, I'm not out to hit on anyone, much less anyone's wife! Eyes front, Christian soldier. Meditate on the wounds of Christ, His love and sacrifice for you and the world, not whether or not that charming and witty girl across the aisle is going to be staying for coffee this week.

And, to cap it all off, if I'm looking to break up anyone's marriage (and, just FYI, I'm not!), it's not going to be at church. Not only has a lifetime attending them taught me how quickly gossip can spread once you're known to the babushka brigade, but...just no. Of all the places I'd go to try something immoral and distasteful, church is about the last.
 

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Posted by Leorning Cniht (# 17564) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ariston:
When the minister asks you to turn to the person next to you and share your innermost desires for the world and what you most want to pray for, that's downright traumatizing for quiet, shy introverts next to strangers.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
(In fact, I find I can talk to complete strangers - someone at the airport, say - fairly easily, because I can say anything I like, and it doesn't matter, because I'll never see them again. Someone I have to see next week? Just kill me first - It'll be less painful.)

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I know what you mean. I'm the same. I think I'd run away.
 

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Posted by Haydee (# 14734) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ariston:
that little extra air of following along on the Christian Life Plan.

---

I spent 5 years working in a non-demoninational Christian NGO that was dominated by con-evo types, and as a single woman in my 30s that was exactly the air many of my colleagues had

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ariston:
When the minister asks you to turn to the person next to you and share your innermost desires for the world and what you most want to pray for, that's downright traumatizing for quiet, shy introverts next to strangers

---

I usually just stick to the weather - either "nice to see some sun" or "good for the garden"...

Now I am a 'single woman with children' but as I have adopted them I am almost a saint rather than a sinner

The other parents are mostly paired up but seem to realise that as a single mum with 2 children my fantasies are about having a lie in on my own rather than finding yet another person to introduce into my bed .
 

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Posted by Leprechaun (# 5408) on :
 
Isn't the problem here the sample group? If you are using a Christian dating site you, by definition, don't want to be single any more. The people who are happy being single in church or out of it weren't asked about how they felt.

Anyway, I'm surprised to hear this talk about the expectation of marriage in con-evo circles. When I was at uni I was part of a flagship con-evo church and the air was very much "get married if you must, in order to deal with lust, but if you can keep that under control, singleness will help you be devoted to the Gospel."

Not that I think that's any healthier than the type of thing I'm reading on this thread.
 

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Posted by Honest Ron Bacardi (# 38) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Leprechaun:
Isn't the problem here the sample group? If you are using a Christian dating site you, by definition, don't want to be single any more. The people who are happy being single in church or out of it weren't asked about how they felt.

Anyway, I'm surprised to hear this talk about the expectation of marriage in con-evo circles. When I was at uni I was part of a flagship con-evo church and the air was very much "get married if you must, in order to deal with lust, but if you can keep that under control, singleness will help you be devoted to the Gospel."

Not that I think that's any healthier than the type of thing I'm reading on this thread.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ariston:
getting married wasn't even an option until just over a year ago... When the minister asks you to turn to the person next to you and share your innermost desires for the world and what you most want to pray for, that's downright traumatizing.

---

Are you saying that your congregation is full of gay people and the minister plays mind-games like that in the middle of public worship?

I thought that we had better taste than that, not to mention a long habit (for excellent reasons) of holding our emotional cards a little closer to our chests.

quote:

---

Also odd is the idea that churches are meet markets for single folks. When I'm in church, I'm not out to hit on anyone, much less anyone's wife! Eyes front, Christian soldier. Meditate on the wounds of Christ, His love and sacrifice for you and the world, not whether or not that charming and witty girl across the aisle is going to be staying for coffee this week.

---

On the other hand, for a Christian soldier who is looking for a match, the church ought to be the first place to turn. Why not? Where better? Of course, preferably not in the middle of the liturgy-- but there usually are other events during the week, a coffee hour at the very least. A fully functioning congregation ought to present de facto opportunities without being pushy. Nowadays, we're told and can easily believe, people tend to be lonelier than ever; and if they turn to the church, they are often looking for a community. Is there any reason either why they shouldn't look there, or why the church should disappoint them in that regard? I hope not.

I agree with others that if you are a single person feeling conspicuous or discriminated against in church, then you are going to the wrong church. I can barely imagine this happening in an Episcopal church. (Or maybe I've been successfully marginalized for so many years that I can't imagine things being any other way?) Without a doubt we've long gloried in our pillars who are little old ladies of both sexes. One such in my home parish, an eminent professor whom I remember as a middle-aged regular in my home parish when I was in college, died only recently (I'm on the verge of retirement). His memorial service is planned for several weeks later, to give people from far and wide enough time to plan to attend. The church will certainly be packed.

I mean, in the Episcopal church you don't get the cold shoulder because you're single. You just get the cold shoulder because you're among God's frozen people. There's no reason to get a chip on yours. Seriously, allowing one another their space is a kinder way of interpreting it. I think that this is most often the intent. And it has its points.
 

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Posted by Gill H (# 68) on :
 
This doesn't chime with my experience, in various types of churches from MoR Church in Wales, through trad Baptist, to Elim Pentecostal and now New Wine-esque Anglican.

I never even got a snog until the age of 25, and it was a complete surprise when I did, as I wasn't particularly looking.

I had been to 'Singleness Seminars' at Christian Union weekends, but mainly for the same reason everyone else did - to check out if there were any cute members of the opposite sex there (there never were...)

My post-Uni church wasn't too problematic either. There was, of course, a certain desire among the old biddies to 'couple me up' but fortunately I had the perfect cover - a Gay Best Friend (who wasn't openly gay, as this certainly wasn't the sort of church to cope with that). So apart from a few 'how are you two getting on' remarks, I wasn't particularly pestered.

I was a member of a wonderful midweek group, most but not all of whom happened to be single, with ages ranging from teenage to pensioner. If it had been officially a 'Singles Group' I would probably have run a mile.

In my current church, we have quite a few people who have never married, or are divorced or widowed. Many of them are in positions of authority - as are married people, single mums, etc etc ... all sorts of people really.

I have plenty of friends who are single, and we have had several round for meals (no problem with just having one person and the two of us - I can never understand why it is such a terrible thing having odd numbers?)

Likewise, we've been to plenty of meals and parties given by our single friends - either in shared houses or small bedsits. Indeed, in my own bedsit days, I entertained several people - single or couples - who were quite happy to sit on a cushion on the floor and eat. You don't have to be all 'Come Dine With Me' to have friends round.

I realise that my experience of singleness was almost 20 years ago now, and it's perhaps easy for me to gloss over the trials and tribulations. But I can't recall ever being made to feel a spare part, and certainly not a threat!

The one exception was a rather wacky worship conference where I went up for prayer about my worship leading skills, but the leader decided as I was a single woman I must need prayer for a Godly husband instead. Since he had told us earlier that women don't hear from God directly but only through their husbands, I had already decided I didn't want a husband that fitted his criteria of Godly.
 

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Posted by ArachnidinElmet (# 17346) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Alogon:
[QUOTE]I can barely imagine this happening in an Episcopal church. (Or maybe I've been successfully marginalized for so many years that I can't imagine things being any other way?) Without a doubt we've long gloried in our pillars who are little old ladies of both sexes.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Alogon:

I agree with others that if you are a single person feeling conspicuous or discriminated against in church, then you are going to the wrong church. I can barely imagine this happening in an Episcopal church. (Or maybe I've been successfully marginalized for so many years that I can't imagine things being any other way?) Without a doubt we've long gloried in our pillars who are little old ladies of both sexes.

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Well... I am a cradle Episcopalian and I think being a young single attender is different from being a (usually older) pillar. For one thing there are so few young single people in the church that you really stand out. In my current church (which is on the cusp between "pastoral" and "program"-sized) we have only 3 singles under 40 that I know of and all of them grew up in the parish. So in a sense they already have a "place" in the congregation. Without that you really can feel isolated.

I joined the parish as a recent college grad and was unmarried for about 7 years after that, and I just didn't feel that I really had any, I guess, foothold outside the choir. I am super socially awkward so someone else might have a different experience, but I felt like some kind of alien invader. If you came in married with kids you sort of automatically had a peer group- but joining as a single at an age when I was still struggling with career and identity as most twentysomethings do was difficult. (Luckily I like hymns and boozing, so the choir was my peer group.)

I think by definition a "pillar" is someone who has been there long enough to make a contribution to the life of the parish and thus (hopefully!!) be appreciated, which many younger singles haven't.

P.S. to Ariston - *hugs*
 

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Posted by St Deird (# 7631) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Alogon:
On the other hand, for a Christian soldier who is looking for a match, the church ought to be the first place to turn. Why not? Where better? Of course, preferably not in the middle of the liturgy-- but there usually are other events during the week, a coffee hour at the very least.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Angloid:
I suppose having been a clergyperson for the vast majority of my churchgoing life (and a student before that) this particular phenomenon has never really been obvious. Certainly in most churches I know couples attending together are a rarity. Usually just the female half of a couple will attend, occasionally gay singles or even more occasionally gay couples, or the very rare heterosexual man maybe with a child in tow.

I think its those churches that lay a lot of stress on 'fellowship' that often have a very narrow idea of what that means.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Spiffy:
it was a little irksome during a recent season's Prayers of the People when we prayed for 'families'. That's what I get for missing the worship committee meeting, I guess.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Alogon:

quote:

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Originally posted by Ariston:
getting married wasn't even an option until just over a year ago... When the minister asks you to turn to the person next to you and share your innermost desires for the world and what you most want to pray for, that's downright traumatizing.

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Are you saying that your congregation is full of gay people and the minister plays mind-games like that in the middle of public worship?

I thought that we had better taste than that, not to mention a long habit (for excellent reasons) of holding our emotional cards a little closer to our chests.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Ariston:

3. ...a society that views young single people as on track to become young married people... Even f you're not after someone's husband or wife, you're subverting the social order, not following the way people are supposed to settle down and grow up...

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I think that's the key - there is a 'proper' path through life and that involves becoming part of a couple. If you don't manage that then somehow you haven't Grown Up. No matter how capable and mature you appear, there is a bit of you that hasn't Grown Up because if you had, you'd be married...

It's a toss up between emotionally damaged or deeply selfish - either of course requires prayer

And prayer for singlies generally has an aspect of 'they're all on their own, poor things, so please be especially with them Lord...' whereas now I'm in the (single) parent category there is more of a tendancy towards 'blessings because of how self-sacrificing I'm being'
 

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Posted by To The Pain (# 12235) on :
 
Unfortunately I am one of the women who has experienced this. Like other posters have said, it seemed to come to the fore once I no longer fitted in a box where singleness was acceptable or understandable - I stopped being a student. And I wasn't a kids/youth worker.

I was even once told, in so many words, by a church leader that I (and all single women, but I was one of the three single women present) constituted a potential threat to his marriage. A threat. To his marriage.

Now, I could see him finding me a threat socially - I am taller, more well-educated, a longer-standing member of the church and can be prickly - but to his marriage, specifically? Way to be pastorally sensitive to a significant part of your congregation.

To this day, I find out that people at church are concerned about me (after a recent bereavement, for example) by a friend mentioning it to me. Not through any gestures of support or concern. And yet I stay. Sometimes I wonder why.
 

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Posted by Anselmina (# 3032) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
But I am "assured" marrieds and families have a much harder time than singles and need extra help.

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quote:

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Originally posted by To The Pain:

To this day, I find out that people at church are concerned about me (after a recent bereavement, for example) by a friend mentioning it to me. Not through any gestures of support or concern. And yet I stay. Sometimes I wonder why.

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quote:

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To The Pain: I was even once told, in so many words, by a church leader that I (and all single women, but I was one of the three single women present) constituted a potential threat to his marriage. A threat. To his marriage.

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quote:

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Originally posted by LeRoc:

quote:

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To The Pain: I was even once told, in so many words, by a church leader that I (and all single women, but I was one of the three single women present) constituted a potential threat to his marriage. A threat. To his marriage.

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I don't think the marriage of this person is particularly good, if every single woman constitutes a threat to it.

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I'd tell him that I always wear a titanium chastity belt. If he thinks he's going to get in these panties, he's got another think coming.
 

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Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by To The Pain:
I was even once told, in so many words, by a church leader that I (and all single women, but I was one of the three single women present) constituted a potential threat to his marriage. A threat. To his marriage.

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What? Either he's worried that both you and his wife may secretly be lesbians, or he's worried that he won't possibly be able to resist your charms when you inevitably try to steal him away.

That's just... there aren't even words for how messed up that is .
 

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Posted by Dinghy Sailor (# 8507) on :
 
Is it a backhanded way of saying he fancies you?
 

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Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Dinghy Sailor:
Is it a backhanded way of saying he fancies you?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Dinghy Sailor:
Is it a backhanded way of saying he fancies you?

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quote:

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Originally posted by To The Pain:
I was even once told, in so many words, by a church leader that I (and all single women, but I was one of the three single women present) constituted a potential threat to his marriage. A threat. To his marriage.

Now, I could see him finding me a threat socially - I am taller, more well-educated, a longer-standing member of the church and can be prickly - but to his marriage, specifically? Way to be pastorally sensitive to a significant part of your congregation.

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It took me a bit of time to pick up my jaw from the floor. And isn't this just the same argument that is used to oppose same sex marriage - that it threatens the existing traditional marriages? What is it with these guys?
 

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Posted by rolyn (# 16840) on :
 
The Church leader who thinks single women are a threat might be making a political statement on trad marriage rather than a confessing a weakness of his own .

If difficult to tell the context in which it was said . Maybe he'd been reading up on Proverbs and had his suspicions of the female temptress sharpened.
OTOH he could just be a randy basstad who fancies everyone except his wife .
 

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Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :
 
...or as my friend Barbara would tell you:

Beware the man who says he is in touch with his feminine side - he only wants to touch yours.
Beware the man who claims to be in touch with feelings - he is, but only his own.
And beware the man who tells you his wife doesn't understand him - his problem is that she does all too well.
Then he'll try to put his hand up your skirt.

(She is a tad cynical I grant but...!)

Seriously, isn't this "threat" really just a modern re-working of "the wicked woman beguiled me and I did stray"?

Sounds to me like it could be wishful thinking on the part of all these "loyal" husbands...
 

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Posted by the giant cheeseburger (# 10942) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by rolyn:
OTOH he could just be a randy basstad who fancies everyone except his wife .

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quote:

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Originally posted by L'organist:
...or as my friend Barbara would tell you:

Beware the man who says he is in touch with his feminine side - he only wants to touch yours.
Beware the man who claims to be in touch with feelings - he is, but only his own.
And beware the man who tells you his wife doesn't understand him - his problem is that she does all too well.
Then he'll try to put his hand up your skirt.

(She is a tad cynical I grant but...!)

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My friend just snorted her peppermint tea after reading this, especially the first bit. There's a couple of hipsters at her work who'll be lucky to have intact testes at the end of the day if she remembers it well.

quote:

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Seriously, isn't this "threat" really just a modern re-working of "the wicked woman beguiled me and I did stray"?

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quote:

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Sounds to me like it could be wishful thinking on the part of all these "loyal" husbands...

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quote:

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Originally posted by Porridge:
Call me picky, but I have never understood why any sane woman would WANT a married guy willing to cheat on his wife. What's there to keep him from cheating on me, too? Pfft.

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The thrill of the chase, the lure of the forbidden, the convenience of disposal afterwards
 

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Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by rolyn:
The Church leader who thinks single women are a threat might be making a political statement on trad marriage...

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quote:

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Originally posted by ken:

quote:

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Originally posted by rolyn:
The Church leader who thinks single women are a threat might be making a political statement on trad marriage...

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I'm not sure I see what you mean by that. (Getting a bit of deja vu here...)

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quote:

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Originally posted by cliffdweller:
If he was just confessing a sin, that wouldn't be so bad. Yes, perhaps unwise/inappropriate to confess it to the object of his lust, but otherwise not so bad.

But that's not what he did.

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quote:

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Originally posted by cliffdweller:
hmmm... I think confession requires a degree of repentance, which entails taking responsibility for your choices.

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quote:

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Originally posted by ken:

quote:

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Originally posted by rolyn:
The Church leader who thinks single women are a threat might be making a political statement on trad marriage...

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I'm not sure I see what you mean by that. (Getting a bit of deja vu here...)

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quote:

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Originally posted by Honest Ron Bacardi:
Why are people going to these bonkers churches anyway?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Matariki:
I am sure that despite Anselmina's opening protestation she is very lovely.

My experience as a Methodist presbyter is that the gold standard, the one's most desired as new members, are young couples with kids.

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Demand far outstrips supply
 

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Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :
 
When I'm married with children, I'll sell my attendance to the highest bidding church. Revised on a weekly basis.
 

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Posted by rolyn (# 16840) on :
 
"The Church desires young couples , preferably with kids "
Yes, I can visualize the poster campaign right now . Sure to work . Isn't it ?
 

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Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 

quote:

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It wasn't God who made honky tonk angels
As you said in the words of your song
Too many times married men think they're still single
That has caused many a good girl to go wrong

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quote:

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Originally posted by LeRoc:
When I'm married with children, I'll sell my attendance to the highest bidding church. Revised on a weekly basis.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Leprechaun:
Anyway, I'm surprised to hear this talk about the expectation of marriage in con-evo circles. When I was at uni I was part of a flagship con-evo church and the air was very much "get married if you must, in order to deal with lust, but if you can keep that under control, singleness will help you be devoted to the Gospel."

Not that I think that's any healthier than the type of thing I'm reading on this thread.

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quote:

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Originally posted by OddJob:
Agree with sarkycow - I'm grateful for the largely single people who run many activities in our church.

The thread title only refers to one gender, but I'm pleased that the comments don't trot out the old myth of single Christians being nearly all female. My experience, having been in 6 churches in 4 cities, is that the opposite tends to be true in the 22-28 age group, it's then evenly balanced up to about 35, before male participation falls alarmingly.

My view is that it can be difficult for single members to be accepted if they are in a minority gender for their age group.

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quote:

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There's a church down the street called "Family First Church." Leaving aside the brazen statement of idolatry, guess what this single thinks of that.

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quote:

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Leprechaun: When I was at uni I was part of a flagship con-evo church and the air was very much "get married if you must, in order to deal with lust, but if you can keep that under control, singleness will help you be devoted to the Gospel."

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It doesn't even rhyme well
 

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Posted by Amos (# 44) on :
 
'Control' and 'Gospel' don't rhyme at all.
 

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Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :
 
You could substitute "well" for control without much loss of meaning - but it still wouldn't scan.
 

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Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by St. Punk the Pious:
There's a church down the street called "Family First Church." Leaving aside the brazen statement of idolatry, guess what this single thinks of that.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Penny S:
You could substitute "well" for control without much loss of meaning - but it still wouldn't scan.

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OK. How's about:

Marry if you must,
It will help you deal with lust.
But the singles will live well
In devotion to the Gospel.
 

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Posted by Amos (# 44) on :
 
Said the Rector, 'Pair up if you must,
For it's better to marry than burn.
And if you're afflicted by lust,
There's a remedy to which to turn.
But the end of the world is at hand,
So a pious and sensible WASP'll
Decline the plain, high-carat band,
Stay virgin, and cling to the Gospel.'

[ 16. May 2013, 22:49: Message edited by: Amos ]
 

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Posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe (# 5521) on :
 
Shakespeare himself couldn't have said it better!

Second verse:

That said, it is still very true
In this parish, at least, as in all,
If you wish to be one of the crew,
You'll show up with wife, kids, and all.
For the unmarried lady will lure
The most virtuous husband astray,
And the unmarried gent -- well, we're sure
Who he really quite fancies, wot eh?

[ 17. May 2013, 01:46: Message edited by: Amanda B. Reckondwythe ]
 

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Posted by Amos (# 44) on :
 
By George, I think we've got it!
 

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Posted by Sarkycow (# 1012) on :
 
Loving the poems guys, but I suspect we'll be asked to head up to Heaven with any more.

Heading back into discussion territory -

How come single blokes aren't treated as a thread to church couples? Are married women seen as better able to resist the lures of the singleton? Or are single men not avid homewreckers?
 

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Posted by wishandaprayer (# 17673) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sarkycow:
How come single blokes aren't treated as a thread to church couples? Are married women seen as better able to resist the lures of the singleton? Or are single men not avid homewreckers?

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Because all Christians know that sex was created just for men to enjoy, and women have no problem with these urges. I know it's true, Mark Driscoll told me.
 

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Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Sarkycow:

How come single blokes aren't treated as a threat to church couples? Are married women seen as better able to resist the lures of the singleton? Or are single men not avid homewreckers?

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Same concept as women having to wear veils since men have no self-control.

 

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Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Sarkycow:
How come single blokes aren't treated as a thread to church couples?

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