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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: UKIP gains = Island mentality ?
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
I was wondering if the dramatic by-election success of the UK Independence Party is a sign of Britain's Island mentality starting to engage in the face of a growing feeling that the world is becoming unstable , even though that feeling may not be grounded in fact.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128
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Posted
Possibly. My feelings are that their success is due to:
1. Disillusionment with the main parties - i.e. a "protest vote". The Liberals used to get that boost but now they are part of the Establishment and so are regarded as equally culpable.
2. Insecurity and fear felt by people due to the rapid changes caused by inward migration - "things around here aren't the same as they used to be".
3. Xenophobia which often seems to arise when there is an economic downturn - "they're taking our jobs".
4. A lack of identification with mainland Europe - the folks "over there on the Continent" are definitely seen as "them" rather than "us".
5. UKIP successfully keying into a section of the electorate (i.e. lower middle-class, white collar, conservative with a small "c") which does not relate well to the other parties - the British class-system rearing its ugly head!
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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EtymologicalEvangelical
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# 15091
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Posted
I think their success is due to the fact that many people have a basic grasp of geography and realise that a country with a territory of less than 100,000 square miles has to have some control over its borders. In other words, they are living in the real world, unlike many on the Left.
But this quite obvious fact won't put a stop to the pernicious accusations of racism, xenophobia etc. After all, it's not as if every other country in the world flings open its doors to anyone who wants to waltz in! ![[Mad]](angryfire.gif)
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You can argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome': but you neither can nor need argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome, but I'm not saying this is true'. CS Lewis
Posts: 3625 | From: South Coast of England | Registered: Sep 2009
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Chas of the Dicker
Apprentice
# 12769
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Posted
"anyone who wants to waltz in..."
and has done since the ice sheets retreated.
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Chas of Blacklands
If you know exactly what you are going to do, why do it? (Picasso)
Posts: 35 | From: Hastings, East Sussex, UK | Registered: Jun 2007
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EtymologicalEvangelical
Shipmate
# 15091
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Posted
Well, if you are going to make an argument based on the distant past, then I suppose we should pray for a repeat of the black death and a few more wars, to keep numbers down.
![[brick wall]](graemlins/brick_wall.gif)
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You can argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome': but you neither can nor need argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome, but I'm not saying this is true'. CS Lewis
Posts: 3625 | From: South Coast of England | Registered: Sep 2009
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
But this quite obvious fact won't put a stop to the pernicious accusations of racism, xenophobia etc. After all, it's not as if every other country in the world flings open its doors to anyone who wants to waltz in!
Have some facts with your frothing. 11 countries in the EU (including Spain, Germany and Ireland) have a higher percentage immigrant population than the UK. That leaves 16 with fewer than the UK, and puts us firmly in the middle of the table.
I won't call you racist or xenophobic, but your views are based on ignorance and lazy assumptions.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
AFAICT the UKIP vote is a mixture of the traditional protest vote (ie, anything against the government) and ex-Conservative voters who dislike the dilution of Conservative policies by their LibDem coalition partners. Moreover, a fair number of successful UKIP councillors are former Conservatives.
When analysing local elections it's worth noting that the turn out is usually about 30%, and I don't think these were any different.
eta: BNP now down to zero! Their ineffectiveness has been exposed. In a few years we'll be saying the same about today's big new thing.
[ 03. May 2013, 21:57: Message edited by: Sioni Sais ]
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
It is a protest vote for a more radical party and one that has a clear definition, not to mention a reasonably charismatic leader. None of the other main parties have either of these. I mean Nigel Farage is an arse, but he is also a character.
It is also partly the BBC making a big thing of the UKIP vote. Bear in mind that UKIP not has 50 council seats, and has had pretty well wall-to-wall coverage today. The Greens - the party I am a member of - had got nearly 200 seats, and made significant gains, and yet has hardly had a mention.
As has been pointed out to me, most of the UKIP representatives will not get elected a second time, because they have been elected purely on the basis of a single policy. Now they will have to work as a councilor, which many of them will struggle to do.
I think it is more to do with fadism than any real change in mentality.
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Blog
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take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
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Jack o' the Green
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# 11091
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Posted
It would have to be a cold day in hell before I ever voted UKIP. However, I think that for some people they reflect the concerns that a European Union which has a united fiscal policy must also have political unity as they are two sides of the same coin. Personally, I have deep concerns about this as it dilutes the democratic process over too wide an area. Of course countries need to work together to help solve certain problems like environmental issues, but these need to involve countries far beyond the EU to have any impact.
Posts: 3121 | From: Lancashire, England | Registered: Feb 2006
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Pomona
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# 17175
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Posted
How have Conservative policies been diluted in any way? Conservative policy is thoroughly Conservative in ideology.
Also as EE has so ably demonstrated, large swathes of the public are just plain ignorant on how immigration works. Our immigration policy is in line with most of Europe's and there are plenty of countries with bigger immigration rates than ours. Europe and immigration are both good for our economy.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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Carys
Ship's Celticist
# 78
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Posted
Someone on Twitter pointed out UKIP has equivalents in most of Europe. What I want to know is why UKIP gets so much more coverage tgsn the Greens, who have an MP, a council and more councillors, though less spectacular gains today.
Carys
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Penny S
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# 14768
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Posted
I've had a brief look at parts of the policies. Buried in the part about support for small businesses is a plan to remove legislation for equality and against discrimination. And I think I saw comments about maternity leave which were not supportive.
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
How have Conservative policies been diluted in any way? Conservative policy is thoroughly Conservative in ideology.
Believe it or not a lot of Conservative backbenchers plus a lot of Conservatives outside don't think the government is anything like Conservative enough. They hate the LibDems far more than disappointed LibDem voters do, although disappointed LibDem voters don't know that.
quote:
Also as EE has so ably demonstrated, large swathes of the public are just plain ignorant on how immigration works. Our immigration policy is in line with most of Europe's and there are plenty of countries with bigger immigration rates than ours. Europe and immigration are both good for our economy.
All of which I agree with, but it is, to all intents and purposes, a Dead Horse. Those concerned usually want to externalise any failings within Britain, so pinning the blame on Europe and immigration is very convenient.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Chas of the Dicker
Apprentice
# 12769
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Posted
Well, if you are going to make an argument based on the distant past, then I suppose we should pray for a repeat of the black death and a few more wars, to keep numbers down.
My (flippant) argument was based not simply on the remote past but suggesting that immigration has played a crucial and often positive role in the life of these islands ever since the Iberians repopulated the islands as the ice sheet withdrew through each period of history until the present. I don;t really go along with the saying " The only thing we learn from history is that we never learn anything from history".javascript:void(0)
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Chas of Blacklands
If you know exactly what you are going to do, why do it? (Picasso)
Posts: 35 | From: Hastings, East Sussex, UK | Registered: Jun 2007
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Carys
Ship's Celticist
# 78
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Posted
Correction, Greens had more councillors before today, but Garage got more coverage and they had massive gains.
Carys
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O Lord, you have searched me and know me
You know when I sit and when I rise
Posts: 6896 | From: Bryste mwy na thebyg | Registered: May 2001
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Have some facts with your frothing. 11 countries in the EU (including Spain, Germany and Ireland) have a higher percentage immigrant population than the UK. That leaves 16 with fewer than the UK, and puts us firmly in the middle of the table.
Does 'immigrant population' = 'level of immigration'? Germany, for instance, has a large Turkish immigrant population but I don't know whether there has been a recent influx of Turks into Germany. The perception in the UK is that there has been a recent influx of immigrants.
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
It is also partly the BBC making a big thing of the UKIP vote. Bear in mind that UKIP not has 50 council seats, and has had pretty well wall-to-wall coverage today. The Greens - the party I am a member of - had got nearly 200 seats, and made significant gains, and yet has hardly had a mention.
This is presumably because in spite of those gains the Green Party hasn't had the same effect as UKIP? The Greens haven't come out of nowhere to take second place in many elections (e.g. in the South Shield by-election) and the surge in UK support has, arguably, split the centre-right vote and enabled Labour to win seats.
It seems to me that what UKIP has achieved is far more noteworthy than anything the Greens have achieved. Whether it remains noteworthy in a year, or five years time, is a different matter.
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Europe and immigration are both good for our economy.
Would you accept that the main complaint about immigration is not the presence of immigrants per se, but the rate of immigration? Would you agree that it's possible for the rate of immigration ever to be too high?
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Europe and immigration are both good for our economy.
Would you accept that the main complaint about immigration is not the presence of immigrants per se, but the rate of immigration? Would you agree that it's possible for the rate of immigration ever to be too high?
Would you agree that interest rates are too high? That the unemployment rate is too high? That rents are too high? That the cuts to benefits penalise the poor at the expense of those who are better-off? That the rate at which jobs are offshored is too high? That too many of our soldiers are being killed in Afghanistan? That we are spending too much on prestige projects, like HS2, Trident replacent and the bomb magnets (which won't even carry planes for years)?
Whatever the rate of immigration, it cannot be considered alone. What does UKIP say about these issues?
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
Would you agree that interest rates are too high? That the unemployment rate is too high? That rents are too high? That the cuts to benefits penalise the poor at the expense of those who are better-off? That the rate at which jobs are offshored is too high? That too many of our soldiers are being killed in Afghanistan? That we are spending too much on prestige projects, like HS2, Trident replacent and the bomb magnets (which won't even carry planes for years)?
Whatever the rate of immigration, it cannot be considered alone. What does UKIP say about these issues?
I don't know what UKIP says about these issues (its policies are notoriously contradictory and incomplete). And even if the rate of immigration cannot be considered alone, it doesn't mean that it can't be considered at all. It's an issue that a lot of people think is important and I'm interested to know whether some think it's even capable of being of problem (hence my original question).
(But to answer your questions: no, yes, yes, no, yes, yes, no.)
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
I feel that this echoes a lot of what has been happening in Holland for the last 13 years (including the low press coverage of the Greens). Luckily, the PVV is losing its mediatic and politic influence (although not yet its voters).
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Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
I think their success is due to the fact that many people have a basic grasp of geography and realise that a country with a territory of less than 100,000 square miles has to have some control over its borders.
Having stood in a queue at Heathrow a couple of times, I can assure you you do have some control over your borders. Whether the content of the controls is to your personal liking is a different question, but it's rather silly to suggest that there are no rules at all.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Carys:
Someone on Twitter pointed out UKIP has equivalents in most of Europe. What I want to know is why UKIP gets so much more coverage tgsn the Greens, who have an MP, a council and more councillors, though less spectacular gains today.
Carys
We have an equivalent over here in Finland. They're the third biggest party in parliament and according to latest opinion polls are pushing close to second. Given the economic situation people have quite legitimate concerns and the EU is basket case. I'll probably be voting for them next election.
[ 04. May 2013, 02:11: Message edited by: Ad Orientem ]
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
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The Midge
Shipmate
# 2398
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Posted
quote:
I'm not a racist but...
The most frequent vox pop quote on the news. Says it all really.
Maybe the rest of Europe is better at integration; more open and inclusive.
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Midge:
quote:
I'm not a racist but...
The most frequent vox pop quote on the news. Says it all really.
Maybe the rest of Europe is better at integration; more open and inclusive.
The rest of Europe is probably more used to different cultures sitting next to each other.
My first trip to the central part of Europe was in 2009. On at least two occasions I was struck by the multicultural history of the places I was visiting. The first was in Prague - a city that for a large part of its history was simultaneously German and Czech. The second was in Switzerland, as I ate at an Italian restaurant run by Italian-Swiss in German-speaking Zurich and listened to people switching between at least 3 languages constantly.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
It is also partly the BBC making a big thing of the UKIP vote. Bear in mind that UKIP not has 50 council seats, and has had pretty well wall-to-wall coverage today. The Greens - the party I am a member of - had got nearly 200 seats, and made significant gains, and yet has hardly had a mention.
This is presumably because in spite of those gains the Green Party hasn't had the same effect as UKIP? The Greens haven't come out of nowhere to take second place in many elections (e.g. in the South Shield by-election) and the surge in UK support has, arguably, split the centre-right vote and enabled Labour to win seats.
It seems to me that what UKIP has achieved is far more noteworthy than anything the Greens have achieved. Whether it remains noteworthy in a year, or five years time, is a different matter.
I suppose it depends what you are looking for. If you want to focus on a protest vote, then yes, but if you want to serious look at changes in the political landscape, the long-term future of a new political perspective, then the Greens are providing this.
Yes it is not "exciting" or "dramatic", but it is more significant in the long term.
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
[I] f you want to serious look at changes in the political landscape, the long-term future of a new political perspective, then the Greens are providing this.
Yes it is not "exciting" or "dramatic", but it is more significant in the long term.
On a night when thousands of council seats were up for grabs, the Greens gained five and lost their place as the fourth-largest party in terms of number of councillors. Do you think you might be over-egging the pudding slightly?
(That said, the election coverage I watched yesterday afternoon did contain a reasonable-length interview with Natalie Bennett.)
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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Trisagion
Shipmate
# 5235
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Posted
The difference between the coverage of UKIP and the Greens might just be explained by the fact that the former got 23% on the national popular vote, 26% of the vote in those districts where they stood and seven times as many councillors elected as the Greens. Whatever one thinks of their policies, their personnel or the reasons for their trajectory, there doesn't seem to be any mystery about why they are the story and the Greens are not.
The number that struck me so very clearly was that with UKIP getting 6 out 7 of their voters from the Tories, and the combined Tory/UKIP share of the popular vote being 48%, there emergence is a disaster for the electoral prospects of centre right politics. Whilst the left and centre left majority around here might delight in that, it seems to me extremely dangerous that it is now highly likely that a combination of the gerrymandered constituency sizes and a split on the centre right could allow am almost permanent sizeable Labour majority with less than a third of the popular vote.
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ceterum autem censeo tabula delenda esse
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
It's almost a mirror image of the SDP effect on Labour prospects. And in the other direction, Militant Tendency.
I think the UKIP vote is a response to compromise (coalition politics) and complexity (all the "black and whites" becoming "grey"). The pace of social, economic and political change produces unease. "We need to 'get back' to when things were 'clearer', less confusing".
UKIP policies won't work of course as a package, but it's hard to put together a populist argument about that. Those who try are seen to be supporting the complex view of the world which is one of the spurs producing the revolt.
David Cameron's stereotyping of UKIP has done a lot of harm to him and to the Conservatives, but when the alternative is more detailed attack on incoherent policies you can see the temptation to back off that in favour of the straightforward characterisation.
The sound quality on this youtube link (Neil Kinnock's famous diatribe against Militant Tendency) is poor, but at least it shows that it is possible to combine passion with attack on incoherent policies. It didn't get Kinnock into Downing Street but it was one of the spurs towards modernising Labour party policies and isolating more extremist tendencies.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Trisagion:
The number that struck me so very clearly was that with UKIP getting 6 out 7 of their voters from the Tories, and the combined Tory/UKIP share of the popular vote being 48%, there emergence is a disaster for the electoral prospects of centre right politics.
UKIP certainly did really well in these elections but I wonder whether they'll keep anything like this vote percentage at the general election. What I suspect is that UKIP hoovered up the 'protest vote' of people who wanted to express their dissatisfaction with the Government, and many of these voters will (perhaps grudgingly) return to the Conservatives or Lib Dems come general election day.
Flicking through the results in my county, Hampshire, many of them were very close between UKIP and the Conservatives. I suspect a bit of 'Vote UKIP, get Miliband' electioneering will encourage plenty of the UKIP voters this time round to return to the blue team in the general election.
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
Posts: 3309 | From: The south coast (of England) | Registered: Jan 2011
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Yes, I think it might be a bubble which might burst. Also interesting that under PR, they would get about 150 MPs, with this showing.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
What I suspect is that UKIP hoovered up the 'protest vote' of people who wanted to express their dissatisfaction with the Government.
There is one division near here where UKIP did not put up a candidate. When the votes were counted it was discovered that there were no less than 332 spoiled papers - presumably people who wished to show their dissatisfaction with the status quo. Admittedly this was under 10% of the total ballot papers cast - but it also shows that a lot of folk felt strongly enough to bother "voting" at all.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
EE. If one is going to present thin end of the fascist views, one need Farage's charm. You don't have that (is that ad hominem?). And neither does he when push comes to shove. He managed to make my blood run cold for the first time yesterday on the Today programme, after his smoker's voice warmth evaporated. Whereas your views 'make me' angry immediately. In my repudiation of my own former ones that make Farage look like a multiculturalist.
[ 04. May 2013, 09:44: Message edited by: Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard ]
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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the giant cheeseburger
Shipmate
# 10942
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Posted
I wonder whether this might motivate the Conservatives to push through reforms to the voting system to introduce preferential ballots, something they did every effort to spoil when the Liberal Democrats wanted it.
It's not proportional representation, but I can't see the British people wanting to give up the benefits of local representation so you may as well go for a better way of doing an election.
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If I give a homeopathy advocate a really huge punch in the face, can the injury be cured by giving them another really small punch in the face?
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by the giant cheeseburger:
It's not proportional representation, but I can't see the British people wanting to give up the benefits of local representation so you may as well go for a better way of doing an election.
We already have one everywhere in the UK except England - a mixed system of FPP and regional lists.
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
The rest of Europe is probably more used to different cultures sitting next to each other.
My first trip to the central part of Europe was in 2009. On at least two occasions I was struck by the multicultural history of the places I was visiting. The first was in Prague - a city that for a large part of its history was simultaneously German and Czech. The second was in Switzerland, as I ate at an Italian restaurant run by Italian-Swiss in German-speaking Zurich and listened to people switching between at least 3 languages constantly.
TBH I'm not really convinced the rest of the EU is significantly less insular than the UK. (Well, except in the literal sense, obviously ...)
On the specific issue of immigration, one of the major sticking points is that the UK was one of very few countries to open borders without reservations to the ten new member-states in 2004. In that respect, the British were 'better Europeans' than pretty much everywhere else.
Likewise, it's not as though Continental Europe is short of parties to the right of UKIP. Think of the Front National in France, or Geert Wilders in Holland, or Jobbik in Hungary, or the Freedom Party in Austria (which entered a governing coalition in 1999), or Berlusconi with his wonderfully inclusive approach to Gypsies, or Jan Slota in Slovakia who, while part of a governing coalition, wanted to send tanks into Budapest ...
Prague may have a multi-cultural heritage, but, like neighbouring Slovakia, the country also shows widespread and systematic discrimination against Gypsies, including de facto segregated schooling.
[ 04. May 2013, 10:35: Message edited by: Ricardus ]
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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Honest Ron Bacardi
Shipmate
# 38
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Posted
orfeo wrote: quote:
The rest of Europe is probably more used to different cultures sitting next to each other.
My first trip to the central part of Europe was in 2009. On at least two occasions I was struck by the multicultural history of the places I was visiting. The first was in Prague - a city that for a large part of its history was simultaneously German and Czech. The second was in Switzerland, as I ate at an Italian restaurant run by Italian-Swiss in German-speaking Zurich and listened to people switching between at least 3 languages constantly.
What you say about Prague is historically correct up until the beginning of the 20th century. Many Germans had for years settled in Northern Bohemia. But they never integrated significantly, and formed the excuse for Hitler's "lebensraum" annexation, a racist doctrine that the master race must naturally expand and overcome inferior races. Post-WW2, all ethnic Germans who had not fought with the Czechs were immediately expelled. If it happened today we would say they were ethnically cleansed.
In a sense you have highlighted two types of multiculturalism, one of which has worked, and the other hasn't. Clearly just speaking of multiculturalism isn't enough - it is neither guaranteed to lead to harmony, nor to cause disharmony. Those things happen - when they happen - because people want them to happen.
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Anglo-Cthulhic
Posts: 4857 | From: the corridors of Pah! | Registered: May 2001
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
I think the UKIP vote is a response to compromise (coalition politics) and complexity (all the "black and whites" becoming "grey"). The pace of social, economic and political change produces unease. "We need to 'get back' to when things were 'clearer', less confusing".
I agree very much with this view . Such feelings might be ungrounded or irrational but it doesn't make them any less real . quote:
David Cameron's stereotyping of UKIP has done a lot of harm to him and to the Conservatives .
His climb down on calling UKIP supporters "racist" was embarrassing and made him and his Party look weak .
I am a bit of a 'pop-corn muncher' where these matters are concerned , someone who is inclined to join a revolution once it's begun . As has been said above this particular one is likely to last until the next GE when we frightened Brits traditionally revert to type.
If, as has been suggested, the majority of us dumb-arse Alf garnet types do not understand the benefits of mass immigration then surely it's high time we were enlightened .
For the more our leaders stumble to find a word which better describes those with anxieties over immigration, (other than 'racist'), the more they will fan the flames of revolt IMHO.
(Edited to clear what was B62 and what was you)
[ 04. May 2013, 11:00: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
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Change is the only certainty of existence
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sebby
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Posted
On the other hand UKIP may be to the UK what the SNP under Alex Salmond is to Scotland. Fringe loonies to begin with...then a change...then mainstream...then the largest party.
Interesting times - and even more interesting and amusing the transparent falling-over-themselves-to-be-nice-to UKIP by MPs from the major parties.
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sebhyatt
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EtymologicalEvangelical
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quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC etc...
EE. If one is going to present thin end of the fascist views, one need Farage's charm. You don't have that (is that ad hominem?). And neither does he when push comes to shove. He managed to make my blood run cold for the first time yesterday on the Today programme, after his smoker's voice warmth evaporated. Whereas your views 'make me' angry immediately. In my repudiation of my own former ones that make Farage look like a multiculturalist.
Then be angry.
But I have said nothing fascist at all, and I challenge you to show me one thing I wrote which is even remotely 'fascist'. If you think that population density is a non-issue, then fine. I, myself, will stick to something called 'reality'.
And I don't have Farage's charm?
Well I'm relieved that my northern roots count for something. Calling bullshit 'bullshit' is my general approach. I make no apology.
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You can argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome': but you neither can nor need argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome, but I'm not saying this is true'. CS Lewis
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Pomona
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Europe and immigration are both good for our economy.
Would you accept that the main complaint about immigration is not the presence of immigrants per se, but the rate of immigration? Would you agree that it's possible for the rate of immigration ever to be too high?
The vast majority of those who complain about immigration DO complain about the presence of immigrants far more than the rate of immigration. Naturally only non-English speakers and mostly non-white immigrants get complained about! As for whether it's possible for the rate of immigration to ever be too high, I honestly don't know since that would depend on outside factors such as the economies of the home countries of immigrants. Suffice to say that I don't think Britain has ever got anywhere near that level.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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Pomona
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# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC etc...
EE. If one is going to present thin end of the fascist views, one need Farage's charm. You don't have that (is that ad hominem?). And neither does he when push comes to shove. He managed to make my blood run cold for the first time yesterday on the Today programme, after his smoker's voice warmth evaporated. Whereas your views 'make me' angry immediately. In my repudiation of my own former ones that make Farage look like a multiculturalist.
Then be angry.
But I have said nothing fascist at all, and I challenge you to show me one thing I wrote which is even remotely 'fascist'. If you think that population density is a non-issue, then fine. I, myself, will stick to something called 'reality'.
And I don't have Farage's charm?
Well I'm relieved that my northern roots count for something. Calling bullshit 'bullshit' is my general approach. I make no apology.
Can't speak for Martin PC, but I think that population density is an issue. I just think that what proportion of that population consists of immigrants is a non-issue. Lack of affordable housing spread across the country is a far bigger issue for population density.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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the giant cheeseburger
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Posted
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Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
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Originally posted by the giant cheeseburger:
It's not proportional representation, but I can't see the British people wanting to give up the benefits of local representation so you may as well go for a better way of doing an election.
We already have one everywhere in the UK except England - a mixed system of FPP and regional lists.
For the three provincial-level assemblies yes, but not for the national-level Parliament. English voters suffer from a double lack of representation there, not having any provincial or regional assemblies at all, let alone one with a good electoral system.
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If I give a homeopathy advocate a really huge punch in the face, can the injury be cured by giving them another really small punch in the face?
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chris stiles
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by sebby:
On the other hand UKIP may be to the UK what the SNP under Alex Salmond is to Scotland. Fringe loonies to begin with...then a change...then mainstream...then the largest party.
Except the UKIP is much more of the establishment than the SNP ever was.
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sebby
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# 15147
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Posted
...so an added advantage, or not?
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sebhyatt
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Dafyd
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
His climb down on calling UKIP supporters "racist" was embarrassing and made him and his Party look weak .
The problem for the Conservatives is that they've been complaining about immigration as a dog whistle for racists since the Empire broke up. So when people start voting for openly racist parties there's not a lot the Conservatives can consistently say to oppose it.
Labour have been going along with the Conservative/tabloid account, so it's a problem for them too, if a lesser one.
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
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Rosa Winkel
Saint Anger round my neck
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quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
Would you agree that interest rates are too high? That the unemployment rate is too high? That rents are too high? That the cuts to benefits penalise the poor at the expense of those who are better-off? That the rate at which jobs are offshored is too high? That too many of our soldiers are being killed in Afghanistan? That we are spending too much on prestige projects, like HS2, Trident replacent and the bomb magnets (which won't even carry planes for years)?
Whatever the rate of immigration, it cannot be considered alone. What does UKIP say about these issues?
The question is, does one punch up or punch down.
Regarding the benefits of migration, well, in terms of finances (if that floats your boat) it's well well established that migrants bring higher tax revenues for the Inland Revenue.
Not that little things like facts should get in the way of prejudice.
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The Disability and Jesus "Locked out for Lent" project
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chris stiles
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by sebby:
...so an added advantage, or not?
Or not. It has establishment policies and has captured the votes of the middle aged (mostly male) disgruntled petit-bourguesie who are in all probability voting against their own interests.
The SNPs appeal is much wider, and they are fundamentally socially democratic.
UKIP is in the vein of the right wing parties in northern europe, the SNP is in the vein of the more established parties in northern europe.
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Rosa Winkel
Saint Anger round my neck
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
Or not. It has establishment policies and has captured the votes of the middle aged (mostly male) disgruntled petit-bourguesie who are in all probability voting against their own interests.
Indeed. It's irrational, based on, well, I don't know. People will start squealing if I say things like "xenophobia". Certainly, though, there is a racist undercurrent to some of their members. I mean, look up UKIP members who were in the EDL. Farage told his MEPs who oppose the BNP not receiving EU money.
In any case, attributing economic problems (or part of them) to people with relatively less power is an old game. We have the likes of Paul Rose, who believe that "gay folk (are) being used by forces of evil to upset UKIP progress", or Tom Bursnell, who believes that rich people should receive more votes, or John Sullivan who believes that regular exercise in schools "can prevent homosexuality", or the UKIP policy on Welfare to Work which includes the words "a parasitic underclass of scroungers".
Some on the left say talk of "genuine concerns of people" and the need to listen to them. When concerns are focussed on hitting down, on welfare recipients, on immigrants or on gays, and not at all on hitting up, then we know something dodgy is afoot.
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The Disability and Jesus "Locked out for Lent" project
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rolyn
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Rosa Winkel:
Regarding the benefits of migration, well, in terms of finances (if that floats your boat) it's well well established that migrants bring higher tax revenues for the Inland Revenue.
Thanks for that link Rosa , I was the one querying the economic benefit of allowing so many migrants into Britain.
Interesting though to browse just a few of the 1500 comments below the article , and not difficult to see where the impetus for the UKIP success is coming from. For as you say many of us don't allow facts to get in the way of prejudice .
So therefore we have to ask how such prejudice has been allowed to develop ? Of course a triple-dip recession is bound to get fingers pointing at johnny foreigner , however that alone does not explain current anxieties .
This thing's been building for a while, and when people start voting en masse for fringe Parties you know they are experiencing a feeling of powerlessness .
If you get enough people, who have no real desire to break away from the EU, considering precisely that because they see it as the only way to control immigration ? Well, without wanting to sound melodramatic , I see danger lying ahead.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
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Chas of the Dicker
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There is danger, not from 'johnny foreigner' (a phrase how evocative of imperial prejudice) but from the loss of trust in the national institutions. The banks are 'greed out of control', the worlds of entertainment and the church 'have allowed paedophiles to flourish', parliamentarians have had their 'shouts in the expenses trough' (and now the Deputy Speaker has been arrested after allegations of rape). The fact that in each case there are more good and caring people than miscreants is not obvious from the publicity - but the press itself can have no halo after Leveson.
Institutions can be corrupted, but a wide ranging failure of trust can be worrying.
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Chas of Blacklands
If you know exactly what you are going to do, why do it? (Picasso)
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