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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Forgive Thine Enemies
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Yorick
Infinite Jester
# 12169
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Posted
A central theme of Christianity is forgiveness (as I understand it), so I thought I'd get a take on this from you gentle folk here.
I've been very badly treated by a person, whose actions against me would be considered by any reasonable party as outright evil. I am badly injured, and my emotional response towards this person is extremely negative. However, I am painfully aware that my anger and resentment, my outrage and despair cause me further harm, and this adds grievously to the primary damage caused by them to me.
I know that victims (of crime, especially) may benefit from forgiving their persecutors, as this frees them from the emotional shit, but how the fricking hell do they do it?
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این نیز بگذرد
Posts: 7574 | From: Natural Sources | Registered: Dec 2006
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
Our memories and replays and reflections on every event cause us to continue the pain after the event, like pressing a bruise. The healing process takes time, and we can't expect to let go overnight, but it's important that we aim for the ultimate healing in which body, mind and spirit are whole.
Focus on Christ and the love and forgiveness of God helps us with that. Over time we can find that not only do we not hate those who have hurt us but we can love them. At that point we know we are healed. The knowledge and memory of what they have done to us is something they must live with, and ultimately face up to before God.
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
Well first the good news, you are doing lots better at it than many Christians. You have admitted that the individual has hurt you. You'd be amazed how many people deny that (self included), because if feels weak to be able to be hurt by others. Therefore oddly enough the first point of forgiveness is to acknowledge you have been hurt and say how.
The second I am sorry is going to be difficult, and that is release. You see for a Christian the release is to let go of vengeance and hand it over to God. What I know of God suggests that that is far from giving the person a get out of jail free card, it is to make them accountable to the one being who won't take any crap. I do not think I can see anyway I can ask someone who does not believe God holds us all accountable for actions at the end, to do this. The closest I can get for someone who does not believe in God is that to this end I would suggest that you would be still be within your rights to seek what recompense the law gives you. However having done this you need to find a way to let it go without plotting further, in other words restrain your desire to vengeance. That perhaps why counting the initial cost is so important. An uncounted cost tends to be treated as infinite.
The third stage that I always put outside the actual act of forgiveness is restoration and that means the rebuilding of relationships. That can only happen when there are clear signs of repentance on the part of the individual who did the wrong. Sometimes this is possible, sometimes due to circumstances this is not possible.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
Yorick, I offer up psalm 43 for your situation, which offers a frame for moving on from hurt and anger. Look carefully at how the psalmist's attitude towards God and his situation shifts from verse to verse.
quote:
Vindicate me, O God, and defend my cause against an ungodly people, from the deceitful and unjust man deliver me!
For you are the God in whom I take refuge; why have you rejected me? Why do I go about mourning because of the oppression of the enemy?
Send out your light and your truth; let them lead me; let them bring me to your holy hill and to your dwelling!
Then I will go to the altar of God, to God my exceeding joy, and I will praise you with the lyre, O God, my God.
Why are you cast down, O my soul, and why are you in turmoil within me? Hope in God; for I shall again praise him, my salvation and my God.
Forgiving one's enemies isn't something that happens instantly, and Christian pastors would do well to remember that. It takes a lot of work to come to a place of forgiveness for most people.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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Uncle Pete
Loyaute me lie
# 10422
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Posted
And if there are children involved, remember that it is NOT their fault. Don't involve them. Like a certain person of my acquaintance did.
I finally realised two weeks ago that I have forgiven her. I let her go. It doesn't mean that I forget, just that I forgive. It only took 26 years for me. Try not to hold on that long. It sours your outlook.
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Even more so than I was before
Posts: 20466 | From: No longer where I was | Registered: Sep 2005
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Zacchaeus
Shipmate
# 14454
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Posted
For me, the first thing is to recognise that forgiving somebody is not the same as saying what they did to you was ok. Secondly it is not saying you have to put yourself in a position where they could do it again, or be best of friends with them. Forgiveness is about our own well being and not allowing the person who has hurt us to keep on hurting us.
Forgiveness is very hard and sometimes the start is to want to have the desire to forgive, as somebody else said forgiveness is not necessarily an instant thing.
Some years ago somebody did something very dreadful, to a member of my family and almost destroyed us all. For a long time, the most I could do as a Christian, was to pray to God that I would want to forgive, I certainly couldn’t pray to forgive them.
The first step is to want to let go of it all, the rest has to be worked at and yes it is hard.
Posts: 1905 | From: the back of beyond | Registered: Jan 2009
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Zacchaeus
Shipmate
# 14454
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Posted
Basically I suppose I am saying start small and keep at it. ![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif)
Posts: 1905 | From: the back of beyond | Registered: Jan 2009
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Jengie ![[Axe murder]](graemlins/lovedrops.gif)
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Crazy Cat Lady
Shipmate
# 17616
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Posted
What do you do when someone keeps on hurting you - it seems to me harder to forgive someone when they keep repeating the misdeed and I am too much of a pussy to take it up with them. Actually I think it could make things worse.
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'They called me mad, and I called them mad, and damn them, they outvoted me!"
Nathaniel Lee
Posts: 52 | From: Suffolk | Registered: Mar 2013
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Tortuf
Ship's fisherman
# 3784
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Posted
I hope the harm is in the past and not ongoing. As you correctly observed, forgiving the person who hurt you is a good way of getting rid of the pain.
Forgiving the person who harmed you is a process as opposed to an event. For me, at least, the beginning of the process is to try and figure out why the person did what they did. This helps in two ways. First, if it is something you were doing it is time to look at that behavior and see why it might provoke someone into harming you. Second, it allows you to see the other person as a human being and not as just the source of a hurt.
From there I try to think about what the experience has taught me about life and how I live my life. Is there a lesson to be learned? In other words I try to stop thinking about myself as a victim and focus on what life looks like going forward.
Once I have been able to focus on what life is like moving forward I am in a much better mental state to forgive the person who harmed me. They become more vague and ephemeral in my consciousness and less of a source of pain and hurt.
Notice I did not say I gave it to God. One reason is out of respect for you Yorick. It hardly does you any good to tell you that forgiveness can only come from having a faith that you do not share. Another reason is that my belief is that God loves us all equally so I am not looking for some outside "Justice" to be meted out by a God who always takes my side.
There is more, but it would not be in answer to your specific question.
Posts: 6963 | From: The Venice of the South | Registered: Dec 2002
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loggats
Shipmate
# 17643
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Posted
I try to pray for the people who've hurt me. It's the only time I've found that praying can itself feel quite traumatic, until I start to really mean what it is I want to express.
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"He brought me into the banqueting house, and his banner over me was love."
Posts: 245 | Registered: Apr 2013
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Josephine
Orthodox Belle
# 3899
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
I know that victims (of crime, especially) may benefit from forgiving their persecutors, as this frees them from the emotional shit, but how the fricking hell do they do it?
A very wise person told me to look for whatever good had come to me because of the person who had injured me. It might take some effort to find that good, but there is usually something. Some person whom you value, but whom you wouldn't have met without the person who injured you. Something that you learned. Something ... If you can find the good, and focus on that, it makes it easier to avoid anger and bitterness. Not easy, mind you. But it helps.
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I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!
Posts: 10273 | From: Pacific Northwest, USA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Yorick
Infinite Jester
# 12169
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Posted
Thank you, all of you.
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این نیز بگذرد
Posts: 7574 | From: Natural Sources | Registered: Dec 2006
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
I'm not a fan of the "forgiving is good for me" school of thought. Nor am I a fan of the idea that it's about cultivating a state of mind of feelings towards the person you're forgiving. For me, to forgive is to say, I won't seek revenge; I won't seek restitution; I won't seek justice. It's an act of will - and a bloody difficult one, at that - not of emotion. And it also doesn't involve saying I'll be so stupid as to put myself in a position that invites you to do it all again.
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
I am approaching the condition of the little old church lady who could honestly say that there was no one she had any ill will against - 'I outlived the bitches'.
There are a few people still extant that I can see did me harm. Do I forgive them? No, not particularly. OTOH I don't spend any time brooding over them. They acted according to their natures - which I in consequence probably understand better than they. And because of that knowledge, they can do me no further harm.
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zacchaeus:
Forgiveness is very hard and sometimes the start is to want to have the desire to forgive, as somebody else said forgiveness is not necessarily an instant thing.
Some years ago somebody did something very dreadful, to a member of my family and almost destroyed us all. For a long time, the most I could do as a Christian, was to pray to God that I would want to forgive, I certainly couldn’t pray to forgive them.
The first step is to want to let go of it all, the rest has to be worked at and yes it is hard.
I think this is the key. Start wherever you are and then pray for the power to take the next step. That may mean praying, "I want to want to want to forgive" because you're that far away from forgiveness. That's fine. Just keep praying that, and maybe in time you'll be able to drop one of those "wants" until finally you get to "I want to forgive". It doesn't matter how long it takes, just start where you are focus on the next step.
I experienced this myself recently. Someone had hurt me and those close to me, caused tremendous pain and disruption in my ministry. I was angry and hurt, yet still needed to work with this person. It was difficult. I was stuck, aware of carrying this burden of unforgiveness and bitterness that was punishing me more than anyone else, burning thru precious reserves of energy and passion. I had a hard time moving forward until I just started praying, "I'm not ready to forgive, but I'm ready to take the first step. Show me what the first step is." That really changed things for me personally-- just that.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
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Posted
Matt 18 comes to mind. If your brother or sister sins against you, go to them and work it out. If it does not work, have a third party meet with the both of you to mediate. If that does not work take it to the council.
Regarding those who continue to hurt you, why are you letting it happen? I am thinking of a child who continues to steal from you to feed a drug habit (as an example). Sometimes you have to practice tough love and say thus far and no more. Let them know that you are not going to take it anymore. If they chose continue their ways you are not going to be involved. The toughest part of that is to do what you have to do.
You are not disowning the person, but you are setting firm limits.
Posts: 2193 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011
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MrsBeaky
Shipmate
# 17663
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Posted
Yorick, I'm sorry to hear about what you are going through and I can identify with your pain having faced several fairly dire situations in the course of my life where I was significantly wronged by other people.I personally don't know how to work through the process of forgiveness without going to God but for what it's worth here is what I have learned:
It is a process,so I give myself time
It is about letting go, not chewing on the bone
It is a daily and on bad days minute by minute choice
It is about being honest about my wounds and seeking healing for them (for me by the spiritual practices of prayer, counsel, reading scripture but you could find your own things)
It is about surrendering the other person to God (or to whatever image works for you)
It is not easy at all, but brings freedom in the end.
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"It is better to be kind than right."
http://davidandlizacooke.wordpress.com
Posts: 693 | From: UK/ Kenya | Registered: Apr 2013
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daronmedway
Shipmate
# 3012
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
A central theme of Christianity is forgiveness (as I understand it), so I thought I'd get a take on this from you gentle folk here.
I know that victims (of crime, especially) may benefit from forgiving their persecutors, as this frees them from the emotional shit, but how the fricking hell do they do it?
By taking comfort in the fact that the person's sin can be paid for in only one of two ways: in hell or through the cross of Christ. Anything else would be double jeopardy.
Now, imagine for a moment that you believed in hell. Would you really want this person - the person who hurt you - to go there for what they did to you? For eternity? Or, would you in fact prefer to for their sin against you to be paid in some other way? Hopefully, you would go for the second option, in which case you are actually half way to forgiving them already. The next step would be to start positively praying that they would come to faith in Christ and seek forgiveness for their sin against you through the death of Christ for their sin, in their place, on the cross.
[ 05. May 2013, 19:25: Message edited by: daronmedway ]
Posts: 6976 | From: Southampton | Registered: Jul 2002
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
I am not a Christian or a particularly forgiving person. Still, I do believe the maxim;
"Living well is the best revenge"
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
I am not a Christian or a particularly forgiving person. Still, I do believe the maxim;
"Living well is the best revenge"
Ditto. Life is short. How much of it do you want to spend being pissed off at someone else?
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001
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Chas of the Dicker
Apprentice
# 12769
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Posted
We are told to love our enemies. This means:
a) We are allowed to have and recognise enemies.
b) We don't have to pretend they are friends, but love them as enemies.
c) Given the tendency to see those who hurt us as monstrous, the loving may simply begin by trying to see them as people not demons.
d) As people they are as fallible, hurting and damaged as the rest of us and this may be their way or reacting to this (which doesn't make it right, but perhaps more understandable).
e) Related is 'be angry, but do not sin': anger is a right, even a good reaction to hurt- but feeling angry is not something to be nursed but to power our determination to change things.
f) Remember that we have hurt God far more than anyone has hurt us, but God goes on loving us. God's forgiveness, and our thankful awareness of it, puts our attempts to love and forgive in perspective. People we really love also hurt us, but because we are committed to them we make the effort and work through the problem.
ans g) I've worked through this because I am lousy at doing it....
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Chas of Blacklands
If you know exactly what you are going to do, why do it? (Picasso)
Posts: 35 | From: Hastings, East Sussex, UK | Registered: Jun 2007
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Josephine:
A very wise person told me to look for whatever good had come to me because of the person who had injured me.
Oh, I do so absolutely agree. It also helps if one has the genes which enable you to find the positive. I'm not sure that forgiveness is the answer. For me, by the time I was out of the situation, I'd learnt enough to understand the causes that had turned my ex into what he was; I think I pitied him and knew, as Yorick said in OP, that to allow any resentment to build up and fester would harm me, and therefore my sons, not him.
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
Another non-Christian here, with my sympathies for your troubles. My own way of working these troubles out is perhaps not bog-standard.
Over a number of possibly similar difficulties, here's what I've found myself doing to work toward, well, letting go (if not actually forgiving):
Like many people (I suppose), my first response is fury and a desire for vengeance. So I let my imagination loose on this problem. What would actually be an appropriate revenge? How could I match it to the level and type of hurt I feel I've sustained? How could I carry it out without splashback, and how could I ensure that The Enemy would know that it was revenge, and it was from me, again without incurring negative consequences to myself?
This process normally takes considerable detailed thought and time, at the end of which I find (A) I've arrived at a more reasonable understanding of the actual harm (often far less than my original assessment), and (B) I've constructed such an elaborate and insanely detailed fantasy that it becomes not only funny (in a black humor sort of way), but also has usually blown out of all proportion to the original hurt (which by now has settled down and lost its urgency).
See, I think part of the process involves forgiving oneself for having been such a fool as to have been taken in by The Enemy. There's the good Josephine talks about: a lesson learned.
Somehow this process satisfies my need for retribution (without my actually having to take any action). I then do my best to ensure that this person no longer has opportunity to wound me. I avoid the person thereafter. Where avoidance isn't possible (a work colleague, say) I arrange things so that contact between us is minimized to the extent I can manage. This has one one occasion meant my changing jobs.
Given a reasonable sense of self-esteem, depriving The Enemy of oneself as a target is a form of revenge. That, plus the knowledge that assholes will usually be found out by target after target, and are ultimately hurting themselves, helps me move on.
And then I forget about it and move on, letting the waters of my life close over both the hurt and the one who caused it. As others have noted, this can take considerable time.
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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
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Pooks
Shipmate
# 11425
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Posted
Yorick, I am so sorry to hear that you are hurting. I have no advice to give you, but I do want to say that I think it's OK to have negative feelings towards someone who has hurt you deeply. I think your feelings are very understandable and they don't make you a less valid person. Of course the concern here is that your feelings are causing you more harm, therefore I am also glad to see that you are seeking ways to move on. I think forgiveness will come when you are ready (when the pain lessens). In the meanwhile, can I ask whether you have a coping strategy or support for those really shitty times? (You don't have to answer of course). Shipmates here have given some excellent advice from their experiences which you could adopt mentally for your emotional well being, but sometimes simple things like going out for a run (or something else that you do) can also help take the edge off for a little while as well.
I know I have not answered your question about how to forgive, but until such a times comes, please know I wish you well.
Posts: 1547 | Registered: May 2006
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
I would echo Zacchaeus, minus the Christian part.
Not easy, though, forgiving. As said, we do ourselves harm by retaining the ill-feelings. Think of it as a small form of revenge, limiting the damage they can do you. Acting as if the hurt does you no harm can also be the beginning of the process of actually letting go of the pain.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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QLib
Bad Example
# 43
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Crazy Cat Lady:
What do you do when someone keeps on hurting you - it seems to me harder to forgive someone when they keep repeating the misdeed and I am too much of a pussy to take it up with them. Actually I think it could make things worse.
Forgiveness is not about letting someone continue to hurt you. It may help to work out where they're coming from - but, for your sake and theirs you have to figure out a way to break the pattern. You might just change inside your own head. For example, instead of saying, I am too much of a pussy to do anything about this, try, I am choosing to endure this patiently because I think the alternative will be worse for both of us. And then think about whether that's actually true.
Depending on the circumstances, you might go to the police. Forgiveness is about doing what Love requires of you and Love does not ever require that you allow an abuser to persist in his/her abuse.
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Tradition is the handing down of the flame, not the worship of the ashes Gustav Mahler.
Posts: 8913 | From: Page 28 | Registered: May 2001
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