Ship of Fools: Should Christians pray at the Western Wall?

Thread: Should Christians pray at the Western Wall? Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by Anglican_Brat (# 12349) on :

I'm here, safely in the Holy Land.

A few weeks ago, when my pilgrimage group arrived, one of our spots were the Western or Wailing Wall, the holiest site in Judaism. I was surprised when our guide told us that anyone, not just Jews, could pray at the Western Wall. All we need to do is cover our heads, either with a hat or a plastic yarmulke that they were handing to us.

We had a little debate about whether or not Christians should pray at the Western Wall. One argument is that for us Christians, the Jewish temple is irrelevant, because Jesus Christ is the true Temple, the Word made flesh. Therefore, the Western Wall is insignificant for the Christian. Another person quipped that God is everywhere and of course, the Christian can pray at the Western Wall.

This is not meant to deny of course, the importance of the Wailing Wall for Jews. What I'm interested is whether the Wall has any special significance for Christians.

[ 07. May 2013, 07:58: Message edited by: Anglican_Brat ]

Posted by Pyx_e (# 57) on :

I felt I could not. I prayed but way back at the other end of the square. Felt the same about a lot of (non Christian) holy places.

Plus I felt silly with the harpoon and everything.

Fly safe, Pyx_e

Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :

I remember doing this, as it is a very special spiritual place, and I stuck my written prayer into the wall. Why not?

Posted by Doc Tor (# 9748) on :

My dad's prayed at the wall - he is Jewish by descent, but Christian. He found the experience profoundly moving.

If I ever had the opportunity to do so, I'd do the same, wearing my father's kippah.

Posted by Nenuphar (# 16057) on :

I've prayed at the Western Wall (women's side!). Why not? Jews may not be Trinitarian, but isn't it the same God the Father? (And I found the whole pilgrimage to the Holy Land unforgetable and intensely moving.)

Posted by Laurelin (# 17211) on :

I didn't know this, i.e. that non-Jews are welcome to pray at the Wall. [Smile]

I would find it immensely moving to pray at the Wall, for all sorts of reasons. I would want to meditate on the loss of the Temple and the immense trauma that descended on the Jewish people at that time. No doubt I would reflect, in mourning and penitence, on the centuries of Christian anti-Semitism. [Frown]

I would want to pray for the Jewish people, for the peace of Jerusalem, for reconcilation between Jew and Arab, for the Church of Christ to demonstrate His love, and for the whole world to know His shalom.

If I ever get to Israel - not a financial possibility right now - I would make a note to do this.

Enjoy your trip, Anglican_Brat. [Smile]

Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on :

I don't see why it would be inappropriate for a Christian to pray at the Wall, but I am not sure if I could out of solidarity for the Women of the Wall.

Posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras (# 11274) on :

ISTM that praying at the Wall of the Temple for Christians is an aspect of what I might call more broadly the Christian Holy-land Experience. I must say that this experience has never seriously interested me, though I understand it interests and moves other Christians greatly and perhaps profoundly. Although I think it's important to give serious consideration to the historical and geo-political context in which Jesus of Nazareth was operating in order to better understand his message without distortions relating to our own national, social class, and modern era biases, I don't find it personally appealing to "walk where Jesus walked" or see the sites - real and supposed - of important events in his earthly life. I wonder if this isn't likewise part and parcel of my attitude toward religious relics. I'll go along with the veneration of these as the veneration of sacred icons and as a pious devotional practice, but experientially it all strikes me as quaint adiaphora, at best. I wouldn't even say that this is a reflection of the protestant side of my Anglicanism. Rather, it's a reflection of personality. My reaction to the OP, then, is to ask a broader question as to why one would want to pray at the Wall and indeed even to make a pilgrimage to the so-called Holy Land. To put it rather crudely, who cares? Our Lord and God Jesus Christ is in the Blessed Sacrament and in the Church. Why seek the Living amongst a pile of dead artifacts and questionable human fancy (the ruins of the Temple are authentic, but various other sites are objectively questionable)?

Posted by Laurelin (# 17211) on :

But the fact that the Incarnate Son was a Jew is not some random accident of history ...!

There are many reasons why I would like to go to Israel, and that is certainly one of them.

I do not view Israel as some kind of Christian version of Disneyland ... ick. Modern Israel has plenty of challenges and problems.

Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :

quote:
Laurelin: I didn't know this, i.e. that non-Jews are welcome to pray at the Wall.

It's a surprise to me too. When I was in Jerusalem, the closest I could get was around 20 yards from the Wall. But that was at the height of the Second Intifada, so maybe that would be the reason.

I don't think that I would pray there though, even if I could. It's their holy place, and I would feel like an intruder.

Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :

Just adding that when I was there, I didn't feel a whole lot in the Church of the Holy Sepulchre for example. I'm not convinced that these were really the places where He was crucified and buried, and the exact locations don't matter much to me anyway. I did find the processions of all the different church denominations interesting though. I couldn't get to the Church of Nativity, because Bethlehem was closed off at the time.

I felt a lot more at natural places: Mount Carmel, the Sea of Galilee... I could really imagine Jesus walking along the shore, talking to the people in a relaxed way. I liked that.

Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :

This is not likely to be an issue for me personally, especially as I am a woman as well as not a Jew, but I think I would not want to do it, even if those people who regard women's God-given voices as an affront had seen reason and accepted women as equals. (I had not, until following that link, realised the true extent of their beliefs, just how abhorrent they were - seven years in jail?) Christians have done so many wrongs to Jews aver the millenia that I think I might feel, if Jewish, "now they want to elbow their way into our last link with the Holy Place as well". It is very generous of them to allow anyone male to pray there, but perhaps a bit like offering the last slice of cake to the guest. It is perhaps most polite to turn it down.

Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :

quote:
posted by Le Roc
Just adding that when I was there, I didn't feel a whole lot in the Church of the Holy Sepulchre for example. I'm not convinced that these were really the places where He was crucified and buried, and the exact locations don't matter much to me anyway. I did find the processions of all the different church denominations interesting though. I couldn't get to the Church of Nativity, because Bethlehem was closed off at the time.

I felt a lot more at natural places: Mount Carmel, the Sea of Galilee... I could really imagine Jesus walking along the shore, talking to the people in a relaxed way. I liked that.

I'm with you there.

When I was in Israel (late 70s) the worst place I was in was the Church of the Holy Sepulchre: heaving with people and every altar guarded by its own priest - I got a picture of one with 8 bottles of Johnny Walker Black Label sitting on a ledge behind him; if you wanted to peer into the place they said was the sepulchre you paid in whisky! Bethlehem was not a lot better.

The processions were interesting: I remember very clearly a band of Palestinian scouts who had been issued with plastic bagpipes on which they were playing their traditional music - I've never heard anything like it since... [Eek!]

The Galilee was wonderful (it was spring) as was the north near Hermon and Caesarea was amazing too.

St Catherine's in the Sinai was rather chaotic but the Red Sea coast then under Israeli control and completely unspoiled) was a fantastic place to unwind - and the blockade meant the sea was unpolluted and the corals as good as the Great Barrier Reef.

Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Pyx_e:
Plus I felt silly with the harpoon and everything.

Perhaps you had the Wailing Wall confused with these.
[Biased]

Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on :

quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
I don't think that I would pray there though, even if I could. It's their holy place, and I would feel like an intruder.

That's exactly how I felt. I prayed silently from the overlook.

As far as the Shrines of the Holy Sepulcher, Holy Nativity, etc., even though I was somewhat dubious about their authenticity, I felt they were truly holy places just because they had been treated so for such a long time. You could feel the thousands of prayers that had been prayed there.

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

Re- the Western Wall - what Laurelin said.

Re- the Holy Sepulchre, archaeological evidence backs it up as the genuine site. That it is busy and noisy should remind us that the road to Calvary was on a working day and itg was busy then too.

Posted by malik3000 (# 11437) on :

Leaving the gender aside for a moment, if the policy is that non-Jews are welcome to pray there too, I would by definition not feel like an intruder.

Posted by Jonah the Whale (# 1244) on :

I was there two days ago and was very happy to pray. I agree with malik that since non-Jews are welcome there was no intrusion. To clear up what I think one or two may have misunderstood, women can pray at the wall. They have an adjacent section. Men are not allowed in the women's section and women are not allowed in the men's. I think it was just the holding of services and wearing what is considered to be men's clothing that some of the orthodox objected to.

Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Jonah the Whale:
I was there two days ago and was very happy to pray. I agree with malik that since non-Jews are welcome there was no intrusion. To clear up what I think one or two may have misunderstood, women can pray at the wall. They have an adjacent section. Men are not allowed in the women's section and women are not allowed in the men's. I think it was just the holding of services and wearing what is considered to be men's clothing that some of the orthodox objected to.

No, women are not allowed to read aloud from Scripture, sing or worship in a way deemed 'inappropriate' by sexists, as per the link to Women of the Wall.

Posted by Leorning Cniht (# 17564) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Jonah the Whale:
wearing what is considered to be men's clothing that some of the orthodox objected to.

Where "men's clothing" here means tallitot, tefillin and kippot, not pants. Calling that "men's clothing" is a bit disingenuous. It comes down, basically, to the question of whether men and women are equal before God.

Posted by Taliesin (# 14017) on :

Being in Bethlehem was a moving experience for me. To be in a place that has hundreds and hundreds of years of continuous spiritual history is quite intense.

I chose not to spend time in Israel, I was there to work with the Palestinians, not tour the holy land. I did love the idea that I was in the land that was the focus of so many stories, for so much of my childhood.
I sat next to an Israeli (recently immigrated) woman on the plane, and she talked about the impact of 'next year in Jerusalem' at Passover. That feels meaningful to mention.

Posted by Mudfrog (# 8116) on :

erm... "It's their holy place?

Wen did Christians suddenly decide that anything Jewish was 'another religion'?

It certainly wasn't under the apostles who regularly went to the Temple to pray.
And Gentiles were welcome to come to the Temple, even though it was only so far in...

I cannot see what a believer in Jesus cannot follow in the footsteps of the Apostles and pray at the only bit left of the temple.

I do not buy the rubbish that says we shouldn't have anything to do with the Temple because Jesus is the Temple now.

Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :

But for a Christian, what would be the point of praying at the Western Wall? Why would it be any more meaningful than praying anywhere else?

Admittedly, the idea of going to 'the Holy Land' as a spiritual tourist has never really appealed to me.

Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Taliesin:

I sat next to an Israeli (recently immigrated) woman on the plane, and she talked about the impact of 'next year in Jerusalem' at Passover. That feels meaningful to mention.

I've often wondered what they say at a Seder that is being held in Jerusalem?
[Confused]

Posted by Zach82 (# 3208) on :

The Temple is still a unique symbol of God's mighty actions to save humankind, so I don't see anything wrong with Christians venerating the last piece of it.

Posted by IngoB (# 8700) on :

quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I remember doing this, as it is a very special spiritual place, and I stuck my written prayer into the wall. Why not?

"I stayed overnight at a friend's house. He had an electric toothbrush in his bathroom, which was very good at cleaning teeth. So I used it. Why not?"

Well, actually it depends on how the Jews themselves see this. For all I know they are perfectly happy with everybody joining in, in which case I would consider doing so.

But I'm allergic to your kind of attitude there. I see it as a severe lack of respect both for their religion and culture, and for your own.

Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :

quote:
Jonah the Whale: I was there two days ago and was very happy to pray. I agree with malik that since non-Jews are welcome there was no intrusion.

I hope that your prayers were heard, but personally I'm always rather reluctant to take part in the rituals of other religions, even if their adherents invite me.

Actually, this happens quite regularly. For example, when I was living in Bangkok some friends took me to a temple, and there was a big drum there that people would beat as part of their rituals. My friends said (even insisted): "Do you want to beat it as well?", but I refused.

I don't know if I can explain the reasons very well. It would be cheapening for me to take part in something while knowing nothing about the complex range of meanings and emotions that is associated with a certain act. I respect other religions too much for that.

So, I love knowing more about other religions and when they invite me I'll be present at their ceremonies. But always with a respectful distance.

quote:
Mudfrog: erm... "It's their holy place?

Yes, to me it is. Although my religion obviously has roots in Judaism, I am not a Jew.

I know that there are Christians who think differently about this, but for example I strongly dislike claims that "The OT points to Jesus". To me, it is ok if the OT inspires us in ways that we connect with Jesus, but I always try to remember that it is a borrowed book, and I should respect it in this way.

The same with the Temple. Yes, Jesus and the Apostles were in the Temple, but they were Jews. The Temple has a place in the history and the world view of Jews that it doesn't have in mine. As far as I'm concerned, we Christians can't claim it for ourselves.

Posted by Leorning Cniht (# 17564) on :

quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:

I don't know if I can explain the reasons very well. It would be cheapening for me to take part in something while knowing nothing about the complex range of meanings and emotions that is associated with a certain act.

My approach would be to follow the advice of the Apostle re eating meat sacrificed to false gods. It doesn't have intrinsic harm, but is harmful if it gives to others the impression that these false practices are OK.

ETA: As far as praying at the Western Wall goes, I see no particular harm, but also no particular merit. Because, yes, the Temple has been rebuilt in Jesus. The ruined wall is of historical significance, but we don't need it.

[ 09. May 2013, 03:37: Message edited by: Leorning Cniht ]

Posted by Taliesin (# 14017) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:

quote:
Originally posted by Taliesin:

I sat next to an Israeli (recently immigrated) woman on the plane, and she talked about the impact of 'next year in Jerusalem' at Passover. That feels meaningful to mention.
I've often wondered what they say at a Seder that is being held in Jerusalem?

It just stops before that bit. 'Next year in Jerusalem' is the last, added line. The woman I spoke to grew up in a Jewish family in England. When she celebrated passover in Jerusalem for the first time with resident Israelis, she started to say that last line and realised it was no longer necessary. I understand what a powerful moment that must have been.

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
... It certainly wasn't under the apostles who regularly went to the Temple to pray.
And Gentiles were welcome to come to the Temple, even though it was only so far in...

Yebbut. The apostles were Jews who had believed in Jesus. We are Gentiles who have. So the argument 'this is what the apostles did', doesn't work.

If the Wall is in an area that Gentiles were allowed to go as far as, I can see that it might be OK, but above all, I think one is obliged to respect the current view of those whose Wall it is. If they are prepared to let you approach it, well and good. If not, accept that, even if the reason is one that as a good feminist, you don't agree with. That's their call and an issue for Jewish men and women to argue among themselves.

Posted by Mudfrog (# 8116) on :

First of all, the previous two Popes have both visited there, prayed there and left prayers in to wall.

Secondly, there was the court of the Gentiles within the walls of the Temple, so anyone could go there.

Thirdly, the messianic/eschatalogical prophecy is that all nations will go to Jerusalem to worship - the implication being that we are all invited!

Fourthy, if the Wailing wall was the last remaining masonry from the Holy of Holies or even the court surrounding it, you just may have had a point. However, the wall is the merely the last surviving bit of the retaining wall around the Temple Mount. It was the outside of the outside wall. Everything that was once the Temple - including the court of women and the court of Gentiles, was once inside that wall.
There is no possible reason for Christians to be barred.

Posted by Ancient Mariner (# 4) on :

Been there, done it. I looked so Jewish no-one batted an eyelid. Memorable and moving

Posted by IngoB (# 8700) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
First of all, the previous two Popes have both visited there, prayed there and left prayers in to wall.

Quod licet Iovi, non licet bovi. (What is allowed for Jupiter is not allowed for an oxen.) On such occasions, the pope is not simply a private Christian, but the foremost representative of the by far largest Christian grouping. The Jews may have made many exceptions for this visit; and the signal value of this act is "political" (in an inter-religious sense) and certainly was carefully calculated by all sides during planning.

quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
Secondly, there was the court of the Gentiles within the walls of the Temple, so anyone could go there.

First, the existence of a court of the Gentiles speaks for, not against, a segregation. Second, the Temple is no more. One cannot simply project all its functions on the remaining wall. Third, rabbinical Jews of today are not the Jews of the Temple. We have to deal with their sensitivities about this, not with those of Jews in the long gone past.

quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
Thirdly, the messianic/eschatalogical prophecy is that all nations will go to Jerusalem to worship - the implication being that we are all invited!

Eschatology is not policy. For example, all shall bow the knee before Christ in the end, but that does not mean that all shall receive the Eucharist now. You may disagree with this policy, but that's not the point. The point is that one can very well believe that all manner of restrictions are reasonable now even if - in fact because - one assumes some kind of universality eventually. It is necessary to ask contemporary Jews about this, one cannot simply assume things there.

quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
Fourthy, if the Wailing wall was the last remaining masonry from the Holy of Holies or even the court surrounding it, you just may have had a point. However, the wall is the merely the last surviving bit of the retaining wall around the Temple Mount. It was the outside of the outside wall. Everything that was once the Temple - including the court of women and the court of Gentiles, was once inside that wall.
There is no possible reason for Christians to be barred.

Hogwash. It is essentially irrelevant here what the Jews held sacred, and how they did it, in 1stC Palestine. That may define my interests, because of historical overlap, but I'm not dealing with 1stC Palestine Jews. This is now primarily a sacred site of contemporary Judaism. Hence they get to make up the rules about it. Period. The appropriate attitude is simply to ask them what they consider as fitting for a contemporary Gentile to do there now. If they are completely fine with Gentiles joining in, then the first barrier is removed. Otherwise it's simply a no-go in my opinion. The second barrier is a consideration whether participation might bring scandal to one's own religion. At face value that seems unlikely in this case.

Therefore, one should simply ask the Jews. If they are OK with it, then fine. What's so hard about that?

Posted by Galilit (# 16470) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
I don't see why it would be inappropriate for a Christian to pray at the Wall, but I am not sure if I could out of solidarity for the Women of the Wall.

As I see it, praying there IS actually solidarity with the Women of the Wall.

I have prayed there many times and at Wilson's Arch too. I love praying surrounded by women. It's even better than praying with feminists.

I wear my good jeans, my usual 3/4 sleeves and a kippa-type head covering (bought from a women's shop). I have never even been looked at sideways. And believe me I am sensitive to that.

I think it's a really personal thing - some people are simply more comfortable than others (or just more adventurous?) about praying in worship spaces not their very own. Some people can cross that bridge and others can't or choose not to. Some people will feel the holiness and centuries of prayer at the Kotel and some less so.
We're all different. The Baby Jesus is happy with that, and his Mother over in the women's section is too.

Posted by Galilit (# 16470) on :

Of course they both want women to be able to pray as they feel called to pray too and they fully support Women of the Wall.

Posted by Pyx_e (# 57) on :

mmmm interesting, I distinctly remember "feeling" that is was not right for me. It clearly was (and is) a holy place. Sitting in the shade at the other side of the courtyard I was grateful to be there and to pray so near a place that Jesus had been (because not all "holy" places can back up that claim). But, for me, it was the holy place of another religion and it felt rude to at the very least not be invited. I would not ask but I would go if I was invited. No one invited me and I didn't mind. It is a Holy place and I prayed nearby. Praise to God.

I also didn’t go in the Al Aqsa Mosque but sat nearby and prayed.

Just because I felt that way does not mean anyone else should or even that I am right.

The two places that “felt” the most profound were the Sea of Galilee (face in the water, a baptism I could remember) and the desert (the breathtaking emptiness).

Fly Safe Pyx_e.

Posted by Lawrence (# 4913) on :

I don't have the impression that praying at the western wall is a modern jewish tradition but is quite old, perhaps continuous since the destruction of the temple. I seem to remember having read that in Byzantine times when Jews were not allowed in the city they prayed in the direction of the temple from a near by hill that overlooked the site.

I seem to remember that Jews pray at the western wall and not on the temple mount because it is the temple mount that is the location of the destroyed temple and it is not fitting to go up there (perhaps because the jews are not able to ritually purify themselves to be in the temple precincts or the temple was defiled in its destruction it is not fit to go up there?).

Is anyone conversent on these points?

If Jewish pratice is to let all pray at the wall, then I see no problem doing it. It is the location of the temple that Jesus acknowledged as the house of God. If one thinks there is no point in place at all in one's praying (a perfectly valid point) then why would one ever pray there? But if one thinks place can contribute to the value of one's pray, what a great place to do it.

Posted by Anglican_Brat (# 12349) on :

Thanks everyone for your responses.

I did went to pray at the Wailing Wall and inserted a piece of paper in it. I can't say that it was the most moving place I've been, like others, I really liked the Sea of Galilee, and also the Marian churches in Nazareth and Jerusalem (Basilica of the Annunciation and Dormition Abbey).

Still no one bothered me about it, though I did see one person look puzzled at seeing a Chinese young man, wearing a plastic kippah on his head (If you didn't have a head covering, they gave you a plastic kippah to wear)

Anyhoo, I'm getting involved in the life of the Anglican Church here. Hopefully, I'll say the Lord's Prayer in Arabic by the time I'm done here.

Posted by Galilit (# 16470) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Lawrence:
I don't have the impression that praying at the western wall is a modern jewish tradition but is quite old...

I seem to remember that Jews pray at the western wall and not on the temple mount...

Is anyone conversent on these points?

Posted by Galilit (# 16470) on :

Yes they have been praying there for yonks. As well as getting as close as possible in periods of "foreign occupation". And all through the years keen young things have been sneaking in and out of course.

Access to the Temple Mount (now Al Aqsa) is prohibited for security reasons but Jews do ascend the Temple Mount. But only a few (like 20) really wild zealots who usually return in handcuffs as the police try to keep public order.

Never a dull moment - Women of the Wall, Temple Mount Faithful, The Kotel "management", police and their horses... Presumably modern Knights Templar are waiting in the wings for their moment too...

Posted by Jonah the Whale (# 1244) on :

quote:
Access to the Temple Mount (now Al Aqsa) is prohibited for security reasons but Jews do ascend the Temple Mount. But only a few (like 20) really wild zealots who usually return in handcuffs as the police try to keep public order.

I believe non-muslims are allowed there, but only during certain times of day. And they are not allowed to do anything overtly religious like proselytising or praying. I daresay they couldn't prevent you from praying silently with your eyes open though.

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Lawrence:
I seem to remember that Jews pray at the western wall and not on the temple mount because it is the temple mount that is the location of the destroyed temple and it is not fitting to go up there (perhaps because the jews are not able to ritually purify themselves

and they might, inadvertently, walk over the site of the holy of holies where only a priest may go once a year.

Posted by Pyx_e (# 57) on :

quote:
Originally posted by leo:

quote:
Originally posted by Lawrence:
I seem to remember that Jews pray at the western wall and not on the temple mount because it is the temple mount that is the location of the destroyed temple and it is not fitting to go up there (perhaps because the jews are not able to ritually purify themselves
and they might, inadvertently, walk over the site of the holy of holies where only a priest may go once a year.

Wipples?

Posted by malik3000 (# 11437) on :

quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:

quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
First of all, the previous two Popes have both visited there, prayed there and left prayers in to wall.
Quod licet Iovi, non licet bovi. (What is allowed for Jupiter is not allowed for an oxen.)

The Pope is not a deity and i am not an ox.

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