Ship of Fools: Are we going to be a minority?

Thread: Are we going to be a minority? Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by piglet (# 11803) on :

I'm not sure if I'm putting this in the right place*; I don't often post in Purg., let alone start a new thread, but I found this article in today's Telegraph rather depressing.

In particular, I thought this quote from the National Secular Society bloke seemed a bit smug:

quote:
“In another 20 years there are going to be more active Muslims than there are churchgoers,”

He presumably doesn't mind, as long as they're not Christians.

I'm no tub-thumping evangelical; I'm just an ordinary, high-ish Prayer Book Anglican. Am I becoming a tad too sensitive? What do others think?

* Perhaps a kindly host would advise; if it ends up downstairs, I'll understand ... [Eek!]

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :

Aren't we already?

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :

I'm encouraged. If the principal opposition to the National Secular Society, the British Humanist Association and their kin comes from the more vocal elements of Islam instead of fissiparous and mealy-mouthed Christians then I doubt it will be much help to the NSS or the BHA. It might even give Christians an opportunity to preach a faith that gives hope between complete submission and obedience on the one hand and atheism on the other.

Then again, that's not the Telegraph's hope or purpose. That paper just wants to stir up anti-Muslim resentment.

Posted by churchgeek (# 5557) on :

First of all, more Muslims isn't a bad thing in itself; they're people of faith and good citizens, good neighbors to have.

Second, it always baffles me a bit when Christians get worked up about predictions of our faith's demise. If we believe such a thing is possible, why do we bother? Don't we believe that the Holy Spirit is guiding the Church, that the Church is Christ's body, that Christ, being raised, will never die again? We may become a minority, but there's nothing wrong with that, necessarily. It's the nature of life. Constant growth isn't healthy; sometimes a little decline is necessary.

In short: keep the faith.

Posted by Og, King of Bashan (# 9562) on :

I don't see too much smugness there. The statement wasn't just said for the sake of bragging- he is making the argument that a religion that is practiced by the minority shouldn't get establishment status. And he may have a point.

I wonder what the trend of keeping the faith is among young Muslims. Presumably if you were born outside of the UK, or had living relatives who were born outside of the UK, there would be some cultural pressure to keep your religion. But as the UK became your home and you were further and further removed from your ancestor's home, I don't see how the same forces that influence young Christians to quit their faith wouldn't also influence young Muslims.

Posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard (# 368) on :

If there are more Muslims visiting the sick and imprisoned and widows and orphans in their affliction - being Christian - than nominal Christians, then all will be well.

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :

What Karl and Sioni said.

Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on :

Christianity has been a minority religion from the off in various parts of the world, yet God in His mercy has sustained the Church. I'm with churchgeek, the Church doesn't survive on human will alone.

I am all for disestablishment even if Christianity weren't a minority religion, but that's another issue.

And plenty of young Muslims are only nominal Muslims - it's why imams are so keen on university Islamic Societies, to try and stop Muslim students from becoming nominal Muslims only.

Posted by South Coast Kevin (# 16130) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Og, King of Bashan:
I don't see too much smugness there. The statement wasn't just said for the sake of bragging- he is making the argument that a religion that is practiced by the minority shouldn't get establishment status. And he may have a point.

Absolutely this. As the number of people identifying as Christian decreases, the argument for Christianity receiving special privilege (e.g. having 20+, I think, places in the House of Lords reserved for its senior clergy) becomes ever weaker, IMO.

Posted by trouty (# 13497) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
.

Then again, that's not the Telegraph's hope or purpose. That paper just wants to stir up anti-Muslim resentment.

That is bollocks and I doubt you can provide any evidence for this assertion whatsoever. It is not the Telegraph making the quote for a start, it is reporting it. I suppose you would take it as gospel if it was in the Guardian. Stop letting your own prejudices blind you.

Posted by Horseman Bree (# 5290) on :

Observing the "separation of church & state" (US)vs. "the established church" (UK), it seems just a bit odd that the established church seems to have less influence than the supposedly-NOT-established church, in the respective countries.

But I also note that the drop-out rate for evangelical American youth is now approaching the rate and result in other countries, where religion has been declining for generations. Presumably, once the vocal religious become to 10% group, they will lose influence as well, all by natural selection.

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :

quote:
Originally posted by trouty:

quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
.

Then again, that's not the Telegraph's hope or purpose. That paper just wants to stir up anti-Muslim resentment.
That is bollocks and I doubt you can provide any evidence for this assertion whatsoever. It is not the Telegraph making the quote for a start, it is reporting it. I suppose you would take it as gospel if it was in the Guardian. Stop letting your own prejudices blind you.

If you take the trouble to look at John Bingham's page (found via a link on the page piglet's OP points to) you will see that the heading for this article is "Christianity faces catastrophic collapse after 'decade of mass immgration'". That will have been put there by the Telegraph's editorial staff and they after all set the tone and emphasis of the paper.

I think that gives a clue what the Telegraph is saying; "The Muzzies are coming and they are going to destroy Christianity!"

Posted by Leorning Cniht (# 17564) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
"Christianity faces catastrophic collapse after 'decade of mass immgration'".

I thought we learned elsewhere in the right-wing press that the mass immigration is all from "new Europe" which we can't control, rather than from elsewhere, which we can. Does anyone know what fraction of recent immigrants are Polish Catholics, for example.

Posted by Horseman Bree (# 5290) on :

But...but...but: pointing out that a lot of the immigrants are practicing Christians destroys the point of the scare-mongering! No fun at all!

Of course, reminding the great unwashed that there are actually some practicing Christians might be a bit of a shock to some.

Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :

I've always assumed that Christians are a minority in any case. Where I grew up in Manchester, there were only a handful of families who were. Being religious was unknown amongst my family, or their friends, or neighbours.

Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :

This prediction isn't new, and it doesn't come from the right-wing press, but from academic research. Sociologists (of religion, in this case) tend not to be terribly right-wing.

Several historical denominations are already outnumbered; I'm a Methodist, and I was told by a non-religious uni lecturer back in the early 90s that there were more Muslims than Methodists in the UK. In several large British cities it's clear that there are more practising Muslims than Christians around, and that the demographics favour Islam in terms of future growth. Those of you who live in small towns or rural areas may not have been faced with such realities.

What concerns me isn't so much the growth of Islam, which is down to immigration and to the larger and more cohesive families that Muslims have, but the collapse of faith in Jesus Christ among the indigenous population. Some say that religious pluralism itself causes decline in faith, but that's not inevitably true; many young Muslims are said to be more religious than their parents, not less. Ironically, their faith has been strengthened by living in a non-Muslim country, whereas Christian immigrants, who arrive with greater expectations of 'fitting in', find that those expectations will probably require that they tone town their Christian outlook, a process that intensifies with the 2nd and 3rd generations.

As someone of immigrant stock, I find the abandonment of Christianity by the indigenous population in the UK quietly depressing. But maybe it's part of God's plan. May he have mercy on us all, Muslims, Christians and others alike.

Posted by Mere Nick (# 11827) on :

I've read of muslims bemoaning what is happening in Africa, too. Here is an article about the growth of Christianity in Africa.

I find this article interesting because it talks about what I've seen elsewhere, and that's a sharp decline in the birthrates in muslim-majority countries.

I've read in the past that Islam appears to have been grower faster based upon birthrates, but those are declining, and that more people actually convert to Christianity than to Islam.

Likewise, like I've read elsewhere, and this article says the same, Mexican fertility rates have also dropped sharply. This, along with an improving Mexican economy, is reducing and maybe reversing Mexican immigration to the US.

I haven't found anything about the Dominican Republic or other Caribbean nations and SA nations that send so many good baseball players here to the US, though.

So, it seems that we really can't go back a few decades and say "if present trends continue" when it comes to populations because they haven't.

Posted by Soror Magna (# 9881) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
... It might even give Christians an opportunity to preach a faith that gives hope between complete submission and obedience on the one hand and atheism on the other. ...

So Christians don't have to be submissive and obedient to God? Or just not as much as Muslims?

Posted by Mere Nick (# 11827) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:

quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
... It might even give Christians an opportunity to preach a faith that gives hope between complete submission and obedience on the one hand and atheism on the other. ...
So Christians don't have to be submissive and obedient to God? Or just not as much as Muslims?

I was wondering a little about that, too. Maybe it was meant to be said that we have to be submissive and obedient to God but not to what other folks say they figure he is wanting from us. (?)

Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:

quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:

quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
... It might even give Christians an opportunity to preach a faith that gives hope between complete submission and obedience on the one hand and atheism on the other. ...
So Christians don't have to be submissive and obedient to God? Or just not as much as Muslims?
I was wondering a little about that, too. Maybe it was meant to be said that we have to be submissive and obedient to God but not to what other folks say they figure he is wanting from us. (?)

I think there's less allowance for free will in Islamic theology.

Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :

quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
This prediction isn't new, and it doesn't come from the right-wing press, but from academic research. Sociologists (of religion, in this case) tend not to be terribly right-wing.

Several historical denominations are already outnumbered; I'm a Methodist, and I was told by a non-religious uni lecturer back in the early 90s that there were more Muslims than Methodists in the UK. In several large British cities it's clear that there are more practising Muslims than Christians around, and that the demographics favour Islam in terms of future growth. Those of you who live in small towns or rural areas may not have been faced with such realities.

What concerns me isn't so much the growth of Islam, which is down to immigration and to the larger and more cohesive families that Muslims have, but the collapse of faith in Jesus Christ among the indigenous population. Some say that religious pluralism itself causes decline in faith, but that's not inevitably true; many young Muslims are said to be more religious than their parents, not less. Ironically, their faith has been strengthened by living in a non-Muslim country, whereas Christian immigrants, who arrive with greater expectations of 'fitting in', find that those expectations will probably require that they tone town their Christian outlook, a process that intensifies with the 2nd and 3rd generations.

As someone of immigrant stock, I find the abandonment of Christianity by the indigenous population in the UK quietly depressing. But maybe it's part of God's plan. May he have mercy on us all, Muslims, Christians and others alike.

I don't know about God's plan, but you could say that the numinous just does not find expression today in Christian symbols. I don't know why this is; I suppose you could speculate that most people have found new gods in the shopping mall. Also, that the spirit is yearning for new avenues, new symbols, new vehicles. In a way, it's exciting also.

Posted by Ricardus (# 8757) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:

quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
... It might even give Christians an opportunity to preach a faith that gives hope between complete submission and obedience on the one hand and atheism on the other. ...
So Christians don't have to be submissive and obedient to God? Or just not as much as Muslims?

I think it is kind of noticeable that the Two Greatest Commandments, according to Jesus, are both expressed in terms of love. Whereas the Five Pillars of Islam are just commands.

Posted by Mudfrog (# 8116) on :

quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:

Several historical denominations are already outnumbered; I'm a Methodist, and I was told by a non-religious uni lecturer back in the early 90s that there were more Muslims than Methodists in the UK.

I do not believe that Christianity should have influence dependent on its attendance records - in fact, it doesn't, even now!

I was told a while ago that there are more satanists than Salvationists. Does that scare you?

Well, if the Satanists ran Sunday Schools, lunch clubs, clubs for old people, gave out food parcels, had a massive Christmas toy appeal, housed hundreds of homeless people, supported asylum seekers, were the governments chosen agency for helping with anti-human trafficking, sold its publicity newspaper on may high streets and public houses throughout the UK, conducted many school assemblies, took its music onto the streets on Sundays in many places, spent the entire month of December playing Christmas carols on the high street, ran job clubs, refuges for battered women, served tea and sandwiches to the emergency services and ran canteens and welfare services at military barracks THEN you'd be worried!!

But they don't.
The churches in the UK ARE the best example of the Big Society there is. I often have said that if the church shut for a week, this country for shudder to a stand still. Yes, I guess that over time, other agencies would kick in - but at what cost to the tax payer and it would be done because the government would HAVE to do it, whereas the church does it because we WANT to meet those needs.

I think that what has happened over the last generation is that the nominal Christians have stopped coming to church and those left are the ones who believe.

Christianity has also always grown under persecution - we're not there yet of course, but watch this space. A bit of assertiveness by Christians in defence of their faith (I don't mean violence, of course) will help recruitment.

Also, as society fragments and declines people will start looking to faith as a respite, an answer. The church grows when people see the need for it. The time is coming when previously self-reliant, worldly-minded people will again see the relevance of spirituality; and because the church is the organisation best set up for that, and because most people have a residual cultural knowledge - or even just an assumption - that 'church' is the spiritual provider for this country, they will return to it.

The NSS and the like have to explain this, when referring to the decline in Christian observance: why is it, that even in decline, people still choose Christian funerals and weddings. Why is it people still respond positively to expressions of faith - whether it be a state service attended by a mionarch, a local community memorial service in a big church, or even, if I might be so bold, a Salvation Army band playing in the street.

I am well aware that figures show the rise in atheism as a percentage of the population, but a vast number of people believe and count themselves as believers in Jesus Christ at that, but whose lives are configured and arranged that somehow church attendance is not a priority. They might not be disciples, committed evangelicals or faithful communicants, but they still believe.

The Church needs to do more to reach out to people and 'draw them in' and make it easier for them to attend on their terms rather than saying 'this is the church, 11am Sunday, take it or leave it'.

I think the church will never lose its influence in this country, not whilst legally and culturally, this is a Christian country - that's why we are dead against sharia law!

Posted by Palimpsest (# 16772) on :

In the US as the conservative Christian groups fall into a political minority they actually become partners in a coalition. For example Falwell and Buchanan joined forces despite Falwell's history of anti-Catholic publications.

Perhaps the Christians and Muslims may form a coalition in Britian if they both shrink in influence.

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:

quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
... It might even give Christians an opportunity to preach a faith that gives hope between complete submission and obedience on the one hand and atheism on the other. ...
So Christians don't have to be submissive and obedient to God? Or just not as much as Muslims?

I was being literal here. Islam means voluntary submission to God. Submission is, AFAICT, the very basis of Islam.

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :

Indeed. AIUI, from my very limited knowledge of it, Islam is a religion of orthopraxis- doing as God tells you to, because God tells you to. Quite an effective way of getting peopple to adopt certain standards of decent behaviour, ceratinly better than nothing, and often admirable in its own way: but it seems to me to be a rather arid and perhaps even mechanical faith.

Posted by Mudfrog (# 8116) on :

And it denies the most wonderful revelation of the love of God - Christ himself, the Son of God. It makes one wonder to which god the Muslims are in submission to....

Posted by wishandaprayer (# 17673) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:

Well, if the Satanists ran Sunday Schools, lunch clubs, clubs for old people, gave out food parcels, had a massive Christmas toy appeal, housed hundreds of homeless people, supported asylum seekers, were the governments chosen agency for helping with anti-human trafficking, sold its publicity newspaper on may high streets and public houses throughout the UK, conducted many school assemblies, took its music onto the streets on Sundays in many places, spent the entire month of December playing Christmas carols on the high street, ran job clubs, refuges for battered women, served tea and sandwiches to the emergency services and ran canteens and welfare services at military barracks THEN you'd be worried!!

The churches in the UK ARE the best example of the Big Society there is. I often have said that if the church shut for a week, this country for shudder to a stand still.

This may well be true. Unfortunately, the activities you've listed above, which the church does, are all aimed at the marginalised in society. I say unfortunately not because these are bad, or trivial, things to do, but because, if they disappeared, not a huge amount of people in the general populace would notice, or rather would be made aware.

The country would not shudder to a stand still; there would be a slight rise in observation of some things, and some things would be swept under the carpet. There are examples of the above where the money for the church to do these things come from the public purse, in any case (such as night shelters). People may notice, but the country wouldn't shudder to a stand still in the same way that, say, all the immigrants being kicked out of Britain would cause the country to shudder to a stand still, as it loses some of its best tax payers (in the IT and banking sectors); and those willing to do some of the lowest service jobs.

Posted by la vie en rouge (# 10688) on :

Ho-hum. I'm already a religious minority in the country where I live (evangelical: round about 2% of the population, I believe, although collecting census statistics on religious affiliation is illegal in France on account of a rather bloody religious genocide in the country's history a couple of centuries back).

I quite enjoy being part of a minority, as a boring European white person it's the only interesting statistical thing about me [Biased]

Also I think the fact that we basically have next to no power as a voting bloc is no bad thing. Our best bet is to just get on with loving God and helping people. The thing I would most like for people to associate us with would be "Evangelical churches… oh, they were those people who helped me out when I was in trouble."

Once political influence becomes an option, I worry about it getting ugly. You may or may not have noticed that gay marriage is a debate over here at the mo. I have been kind of alarmed to see some of my coreligionists getting involved in the protests. Stepping aside the rights and wrongs of the Dead Horse in itself, protesting on this subject gets you mixed up with some very unsavoury company. I'm kind of horrified to see my fellow evangelicals marching down the street with the National Front in order to influence politics the way they want. Most of the evangelical people I know who said they weren't going to the protest didn't actually think gay marriage wasn't wrong, they just weren't prepared to be in any kind of alliance with the FN.

Posted by wishandaprayer (# 17673) on :

quote:
Originally posted by la vie en rouge:
I'm kind of horrified to see my fellow evangelicals marching down the street with the National Front in order to influence politics the way they want. Most of the evangelical people I know who said they weren't going to the protest didn't actually think gay marriage wasn't wrong, they just weren't prepared to be in any kind of alliance with the FN.

Proverbs 13:20 - "Keep company with the wise and you will become wise. If you make friends with stupid people, you will be ruined."

Posted by The Midge (# 2398) on :

quote:
Originally posted by la vie en rouge:
Ho-hum. I'm already a religious minority in the country where I live (evangelical: round about 2% of the population, I believe, although collecting census statistics on religious affiliation is illegal in France on account of a rather bloody religious genocide in the country's history a couple of centuries back).

There 'we'go. If 'we' are not in a minority as christians we can self identify oursevles into a minority by denomination or sect.

Posted by la vie en rouge (# 10688) on :

quote:
Originally posted by The Midge:

quote:
Originally posted by la vie en rouge:
Ho-hum. I'm already a religious minority in the country where I live (evangelical: round about 2% of the population, I believe, although collecting census statistics on religious affiliation is illegal in France on account of a rather bloody religious genocide in the country's history a couple of centuries back).

There 'we'go. If 'we' are not in a minority as christians we can self identify oursevles into a minority by denomination or sect.

Did I mention a bloody religious genocide that happened here once? While some enlightened members of each may regard evangelicals and Catholics as essentially one religion, they are by and large considered to be different religions, especially by conservative catholics (in more conservative and rural parts, the decision for someone raised (even nominally) Catholic to get baptised in an evangelical church is definitely regarded by most people as a conversion to a different and slightly dodgy religion).

But actually the numbers of bona fide practising RCs who genuinely go to mass on a Sunday is so small that even they are a minority these days.

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
And it denies the most wonderful revelation of the love of God - Christ himself, the Son of God. It makes one wonder to which god the Muslims are in submission to....

Why? How many gods are there?

Posted by wishandaprayer (# 17673) on :

quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Why? How many gods are there?

In the Christian worldview, one God, many gods. "You shall have no other gods before me" implies that there are other gods out there.

Posted by Hairy Biker (# 12086) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
If there are more Muslims visiting the sick and imprisoned and widows and orphans in their affliction - being Christian - than nominal Christians, then all will be well.

Martin, I don't disagree with your sentiment. All will be well. I would suggest that unless the Muslims are doing these things in the name of Christ then they are not "being Christian". But that is not a reason to discourage them or to be discouraged.

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
And it denies the most wonderful revelation of the love of God - Christ himself, the Son of God. It makes one wonder to which god the Muslims are in submission to....

Do you apply the same logic to Judaism? Let me know how that works out for you on here if you do.

Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
And it denies the most wonderful revelation of the love of God - Christ himself, the Son of God. It makes one wonder to which god the Muslims are in submission to....

Keep in mind that, whatever else you think of Islam, it's rooted in honoring one God. When Islam was born, the local folks were worshipping a variety of deities and idols. Islam focused them on ONE God. So the idea of God a) having a son, and b) being three in one go against their deepest root. The Trinity seems like going back to polytheism.

They do honor Isa/Jesus as a prophet--but, for the above reasons, they can't see him as God. (IIRC, they do believe in the virgin birth, but think the father was some other kind of being. Maybe a djinn/genie??)

Posted by Cedd007 (# 16180) on :

quote:
Originally posted by piglet:

I'm no tub-thumping evangelical

'I'm no tub-thumping evangelical ….' I love the labels on this website, and it would be no fun at all without them. But they can also seriously mislead, a point particularly relevant to this thread, because statistics depend, precisely, on labels, their accurate collection, and on the analysis of the overall picture they provide. Although there are plenty of figures available, and they certainly measure something, I don't necessarily think they tell us very much.

It might be more helpful to think about the quality of what is going on, something difficult to measure when we may have very different views on what we regard as quality in the life of the church. But I have some anecdotal evidence that there might be some convergence among these different views.

At the Christian conference earlier this week in London the drums on the stage were certainly thumping, and the music was generally so loud that I found myself trying to block my ears, whilst yearning for choral evensong, a sensation I very rarely experience. However, five thousand other people were clearly really enjoying this.

The archbishop of Canterbury, Justin Welby, was interviewed. What really warmed the cockles of my heart was his comment that there appears to be a willingness to hear the Gospel today that there hasn't been for 70 years: my own view has always been that there has been strong resistance to 'Evangelism' from pretty well everybody, including Evangelicals, for at least half a century, and how can you possibly have church growth without evangelism of some sort? The Roman Catholic archbishop of Vienna, Cardinal Schonborn, also spoke, and as well as sharing his view that the election of the pope had been a small miracle, tentatively suggested that the election of our own archbishop had been too. (They were equally clear, however, that it wasn't all about leadership.) I was left, after two days and many other speakers, with the very strong feeling that the Holy Spirit was at work and I had better get behind the programme.

The 'problem' of Islam therefore perhaps needs to be seen from a totally different standpoint.

Obviously this message is not unique to Holy Trinity Brompton (a label I held back as long as possible in deference to those who are allergic to happy clappies).

Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
And it denies the most wonderful revelation of the love of God - Christ himself, the Son of God. It makes one wonder to which god the Muslims are in submission to....

Posted by Mudfrog (# 8116) on :

quote:
Originally posted by leo:

quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
And it denies the most wonderful revelation of the love of God - Christ himself, the Son of God. It makes one wonder to which god the Muslims are in submission to....
Why? How many gods are there?

I don't know how many gods people worship but the one the Bible reveals is called YHWH and is seen perfectly in Jesus, the divine Son of God and experienced by the divine Spirit of God. That revelation was clearly and perfectly expressed in the Bible.

Any alternative god with a different name and nature, either worshipped concurrently to YHWH or becoming known subsequently is, as the Bible calls it, one of 'the gods of the nations' which are in reality no gods at all.

Baal, Osiris, Zeus, Odin, Allah, etc - all totally different in name and nature to the revealed God of the Bible who is known as the Lord (YHWH).

Please do not suggest that Allah is just the word for 'God' because Islam refutes this and strongly asserts that God's name is Allah NOT YHWH - in fact, they say that YHWH is not the same as Allah.

I'm happy to go along with that and say that YHWH is the El Elyon, the Most High. He alone is the El Shaddai and that Jesus is the image of the invisible God in whom all the fullness of Godhead dwells bodily.

And god that self-expresses as anything different, subsequent to the revelation of Christ, is evidently a different and 'man-made' deity.

It cannot be true that all the different deities who claim to be the 'One God' are all that one god. As Elijah said, choose ye this day whom ye will serve. If the Lod (YHWH is God, serve him; if Baal is God, then serve him.

In that contest, only one Lord was able to express himself as a god. The other was proved false.

There is only one god - YHWH - and Jesus is his Son.

Posted by Mudfrog (# 8116) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:

quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
And it denies the most wonderful revelation of the love of God - Christ himself, the Son of God. It makes one wonder to which god the Muslims are in submission to....
Do you apply the same logic to Judaism? Let me know how that works out for you on here if you do.

We worship the same One God - YHWH. That they do not recognise Jesus as their messiah is sad but they are still the people of God to whom the covenant promises will one day be fulfilled along with the Church.

I have worshipped in a synagogue and was able to worship that same God of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and, very significantly, Moses.. It is not enough, nowhere near enough, to say that Islam honours the God of Abraham. The truth is, the fact is, that they reject Isaac as the Son of Promise and they reject Moses as the bringer of the covenant and what's more, they reject the self-revelation of El Shaddai as YHWH.

The One God of Islam is indeed a single deity but he is one of the heathen gods - the moon god. This deity is not the covenant God of Israel, YHWH.

[ 17. May 2013, 12:56: Message edited by: Mudfrog ]

Posted by Net Spinster (# 16058) on :

You do realize that Arabic speaking Christians worship 'Allah' and did so long before Muslims were around and that Muslims identify Allah as the god of Abraham, David, Solomon, and Jesus. 'Allah' is important to them because it is Arabic and Arabic is the language of the Qu'ran (which is considered a perfect gift of God).

Posted by no prophet (# 15560) on :

Church attending people are already in the minority. I think in most places.

The growing group is those who have a form of agnosticism. They say they believe God but have little else going on. I think we have somewhere around 1% of the population as Moslem. With more people practicing yoga that that.

Posted by Evensong (# 14696) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:

quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:

quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
... It might even give Christians an opportunity to preach a faith that gives hope between complete submission and obedience on the one hand and atheism on the other. ...
So Christians don't have to be submissive and obedient to God? Or just not as much as Muslims?
I think it is kind of noticeable that the Two Greatest Commandments, according to Jesus, are both expressed in terms of love. Whereas the Five Pillars of Islam are just commands.

Jesus commanded us to love.

John 13:34

Posted by Evensong (# 14696) on :

As for Christians being a minority in the world I heard a great phrase the other day:

Christianity is now in the post-Constantine era.

This could be the beginning of a great thing.

[ 17. May 2013, 14:24: Message edited by: Evensong ]

Posted by wishandaprayer (# 17673) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Net Spinster:
You do realize that Arabic speaking Christians worship 'Allah' and did so long before Muslims were around and that Muslims identify Allah as the god of Abraham, David, Solomon, and Jesus. 'Allah' is important to them because it is Arabic and Arabic is the language of the Qu'ran (which is considered a perfect gift of God).

Arabic speaking Christians worshipped 'Allah' as God, long before the seventh century? Do you have a citation for this (genuinely interested)? I know they do presently (in absence of any other word in the language); we're all also aware of the moon god etymological theory - though it may not hold water fully, it is there to be read into and understood in context.

You do realise (some) Hindus identify Brahma as god and Jesus Christ, and while it is a polytheistic religion, does this mean that in essence they worship the same god?

Posted by Mudfrog (# 8116) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Net Spinster:
You do realize that Arabic speaking Christians worship 'Allah' and did so long before Muslims were around and that Muslims identify Allah as the god of Abraham, David, Solomon, and Jesus. 'Allah' is important to them because it is Arabic and Arabic is the language of the Qu'ran (which is considered a perfect gift of God).

So?
In the Old testament YHWH is a god, (El) and Baal is a god (EL).

They are not the same 'El' and neither, if one is using 'Allah' as a generic word for 'god' is Islam's 'Allah' the same 'Allah' as YHWH.

In fact Islam actively denies that 'Allah' is called YHWH.

YHWH deliberately and clearly said "I am YHWH, your God (Elohim), beside me there is no other."

Any God, Elohim or Allah not called YHWH is no god at all.

[ 17. May 2013, 14:33: Message edited by: Mudfrog ]

Posted by Mere Nick (# 11827) on :

Christians are a minority in the world but there are more Christians than muslims. Muslim birthrates are declining and more people convert from another religion to Christianity than convert from another religion to Islam. At least, when I look it up that is what I find.

Regardless of our religion, or lack thereof, it seems we can all take a lesson from the Amish. They let their freak flag fly but don't appear to make any demands of others who don't cotton to their beliefs. Very libertarian of them.

Posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard (# 368) on :

@Hairy Biker, we're united by the semantic differences between us.

@Evensong [Overused]

@Mudfrog in what language is YHWH or CZGZ love ?

Posted by Mudfrog (# 8116) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
@Mudfrog in what language is YHWH or CZGZ love ? [/QB]

Eh?

Posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard (# 368) on :

Ah, the Salon des Glaces effect.

Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :

Re Muslims rejecting Isaac as the "Son of Promise":

Given the sorry drama that played out with Abraham's family, and that they trace from *Ishmael*, it makes sense.

Posted by Mudfrog (# 8116) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Re Muslims rejecting Isaac as the "Son of Promise":

Given the sorry drama that played out with Abraham's family, and that they trace from *Ishmael*, it makes sense.

No, what I mean is that instead of Isaac being the one that Abraham was called upon to sacrifice, Islam has replaced him with Ishmael.

Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :

Yes, that's what I meant, too.

Think of it like a dysfunctional family (which it was). Ishmael and his mom were treated shamefully by Abraham and Sarah. (E.g., exiled to the desert, once, IIRC.)

Of *course*, they're going to take Ishmael's side!

Posted by Net Spinster (# 16058) on :

quote:
Originally posted by wishandaprayer:

quote:
Originally posted by Net Spinster:
You do realize that Arabic speaking Christians worship 'Allah' and did so long before Muslims were around and that Muslims identify Allah as the god of Abraham, David, Solomon, and Jesus. 'Allah' is important to them because it is Arabic and Arabic is the language of the Qu'ran (which is considered a perfect gift of God).
Arabic speaking Christians worshipped 'Allah' as God, long before the seventh century? Do you have a citation for this (genuinely interested)? I know they do presently (in absence of any other word in the language); we're all also aware of the moon god etymological theory - though it may not hold water fully, it is there to be read into and understood in context.

You do realise (some) Hindus identify Brahma as god and Jesus Christ, and while it is a polytheistic religion, does this mean that in essence they worship the same god?

Hindus consider they do and Christians don't consider that Hindus do. Similarly Muslims consider they worship the same God as Jews and Christians (except they consider that Jesus is not God [something on which they would agree with Jews]).

1. I know of no modern reputable scholar who considers the moon god idea to be anything but wishful thinking by a few Christians.

2. Arabic Christians date from at least the 4th century (Islam is 7th century) though the liturgy may have been in another language (much like the western church used Latin even though the locals spoke a different language). I did a bit of googling, "The Bible in Arab Christianity" by David Richard Thomas (which is at least partially available on Google books) seems to be a good source. Note that the earliest manuscripts postdate Islam but include 9th century through modern day all using 'Allah' (such as the "word was with Allah") and with enough diversity that some of the earlier lost manuscripts almost certainly predate Islam. There were some variants when the translators use an indefinite article instead a definite article (a God instead of the God) but the word was essentially the same.

3. On Muslims and Moses (I know this is in reply to Mudfrog not you). Moses is apparently mentioned quite frequently in the Qu'ran. Bits like "Then we sent after them (the messengers) Moses with Our signs to Pharaoh and his chiefs, but they disbelieved in them; so see what the end of the corrupters was" (al-A‘raf, 7:103). So I would say that Muslims would consider they were worshiping the God of Moses also.

Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on :

There is henotheism (belief in more than one god but choosing to worship only one) as well as monotheism in the Old Testament. Certainly YHWH is treated as the best god rather than the one God at points. I hasten to add that I personally am monotheistic and not henotheistic, but I don't think all Old Testament writers would agree with me.

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