Ship of Fools: A difficult experience

Thread: A difficult experience Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by DouglasTheOtter (# 17681) on :

Apologies in advance for what may be a long post.

I went to New York last weekend for a wedding. It was the marriage of the guy who runs a small offshoot of a church in London to someone who has been equally deeply involved with the parent church in America. They're fairly evangelical, given to guitars and all the other paraphernalia of modern churches and I'm still working out how I feel about it all. But that's just the background.

The following day, I went to the main church service. At first, I felt sheepish and predictably English when surrounded by the people who were singing and had their hands in the air, which makes it all the more of a surprise that I found myself joining in and rather enjoying it all. After the sermon, we were asked if we'd like to see the prayer team. Again, in spite of myself, I realised that I was heading to the front to seek out some prayerful advice.

And this is where the difficulty starts.

When the prayer began, I felt reasonably in control. Very quickly, it became obvious to me that I was going to cry and, following fast behind, I found myself sobbing. I didn't feel ashamed of my tears, but deeply and profoundly moved by what was said to me. At the end, I found myself in the lobby, drained, but oddly euphoric.

I'd really like to know... well, I'm casting around for anything in my life that I can use to understand this experience. And I'm failing. Any words or advice on what happened to me and how I might make sense of it would be very, very much appreciated.

Posted by Stetson (# 9597) on :

I dunno, I'm not given to that kind of rapturous emotion during religious services.

But I AM given to crying during movies(despite being pretty stone-hearted in any other situation). And lately, I've noticed that it happens during scenes that aren't even meant to be all that emotional. Sometimes I can't even really figure out what it is that's making me react that way, possibly the good acting, maybe just something about the scene reminds me of something else emotional. I don't know what.

So, that's about the closest experience I can claim to what you report. I probably wouldn't worry about it too much. Maybe the combination of being in a foreign country, along with what was for you a relatively new worship style, surrounded by people who were all very much into the experience, was a bit overwhelming for your psyche, and the dams just sort of burst, so to speak.

Or, hey, maybe you really did feel the Holy Spirit moving in your life(not a Christian myself, but I don't rule anything out). Either way, my advice would be to just go with it, as the saying goes.

Posted by South Coast Kevin (# 16130) on :

quote:
Originally posted by DouglasTheOtter:
When the prayer began, I felt reasonably in control. Very quickly, it became obvious to me that I was going to cry and, following fast behind, I found myself sobbing. I didn't feel ashamed of my tears, but deeply and profoundly moved by what was said to me. At the end, I found myself in the lobby, drained, but oddly euphoric.

I'd really like to know... well, I'm casting around for anything in my life that I can use to understand this experience. And I'm failing. Any words or advice on what happened to me and how I might make sense of it would be very, very much appreciated.

Thanks for sharing what sounds like a rather incongruous experience for you! Being a charismatic Christian myself, I'd say you probably did have a moving encounter with God. Having said that, there is certainly scope for manipulation (often well-meaning) in charismatic contexts, and maybe you did get swept up in the emotionalism, despite your initial cautiousness.

But I think the 'fruit' is key - what has changed in your life, your mood, your outlook as a result of this experience? If nothing much has changed, maybe it was an experienced based more on psychology and emotion than anything more profound. But if you do feel some change within yourself, perhaps a sustained lightening of your spirit / mood, then maybe it was a God thing.

Posted by Raptor Eye (# 16649) on :

When we first encounter God, our emotions are stirred, in the same way as when we fall in love.

Posted by DouglasTheOtter (# 17681) on :

Thanks for the considered replies.

I'm naturally wary of any experience that speaks to my heart rather than my head, so content, for the time being, to see what unfolds. I'm going to a small church gathering tomorrow and plan to keep on going until God's plan unfolds itself to me. At the moment, I'm recovering from a rather sharp and unpleasant period of mental illness, which is another reason to be cautious, so I'm content to see what happens. The question of whether or not the experience was one of the Holy Spirit... well, the jury is out.

Posted by Raptor Eye (# 16649) on :

Welcome to the ship btw, DouglastheOtter.

I hope and pray that your journey of faith will be fruitful, and that you will know God's peace in your heart.

Posted by no prophet (# 15560) on :

I'd suggest you talk to some people you trust, who will listen. A little stillness may also help. People sometimes get overly excited about other people's experiences and interpret them for them. I am naturally suspicious about 'one off" types of experiences, thus recommend considering it over a little span of time and determining if it means something beyond the immediate experience may be in order.

It's also worth considering 'why me, why then' and your state of mind and body at the time. Finally, if it was something you enjoyed, feels like something you can draw on, seems authentic etc, then it may be simply something worth putting into a category of memory and significant, the effects and meaning of which may be unknown for years or even decades. If it was authentically spiritual/God, then perhaps it needs to remain there with patience to see what it means.

[ 25. May 2013, 13:12: Message edited by: no prophet ]

Posted by DouglasTheOtter (# 17681) on :

I think the idea of it 'remaining there, with patience' is a very, very good one. If it was a genuinely religious experience, then that will become clear over time, one assumes. And if it wasn't, then it's simply a very good and very special memory. We'll see.

Posted by EtymologicalEvangelical (# 15091) on :

I find the attitude towards weeping quite fascinating (and not a little troubling at times).

There is often an assumption that someone who weeps is deeply sad, miserable or depressed. Or that something really terrible has happened in that person's life.

Or perhaps there is a feeling that such a person is somehow 'weak' and we need to pity him (particularly 'him' rather than 'her' , as it happens).

But people weep for all sorts of reasons:

1. Joy

2. Emotional release

3. A stress / nervous reaction

4. Sadness

5. Tragedy

6. An intense awareness of love

7. Pain

The fact is that weeping is a totally normal human reaction. In fact, if anything should concern us, it is often the lack of weeping.

I can only really speak for myself, but I think I am probably reflecting the view of many others when I say that many British people have been brought up to regard tears as a sign of weakness. This is something that has had a devastating effect on my life. There are times when I wish I could have just let go and opened up, and got something off my chest. But no. That would have been a wimpy and terribly sad ('sad' as in 'pathetic') thing to do, in the eyes of some people - or perhaps "in the eyes of some people according to my imagination"!

Thankfully, God has helped me overcome this at times, and there have been occasions when I have been touched by God in a meeting and I have wept without giving a monkeys what anyone else thought. The atheists can say what they like, but if such an ability to be without care and self-consciousness in that situation was just an attitude I managed to generate out of my own resources, and not the real work of the Holy Spirit, then pigs really can fly!

There are times when God wants us to weep.

Go for it.

[ 25. May 2013, 13:20: Message edited by: EtymologicalEvangelical ]

Posted by DouglasTheOtter (# 17681) on :

I know what you mean about weeping.

At school, from the age of around five upwards, I was always known as 'the kid who didn't cry,' which with the benefit of hindsight, seems staggeringly unhealthy. Why wouldn't you cry if you were sad or in pain? The reasons for that are many and various and perhaps not the province of this board, but crying openly, in front of people who were either unfazed by it or who responded with love, was a genuinely transformative. Someone said further up the thread that it could be an awareness of love and that's what it was - an awareness that someone cared enough to pray for me, which felt rather special.

Posted by Galilit (# 16470) on :

I would take this experience seriously but not necessarily as a life-changer or a "sign" of anything.
Yet.
Wait and see.
That said I can really understand your feelings of "Whaaaaat?!"
Been there done that.
And still here to talk to you.

Posted by tclune (# 7959) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Galilit:
I would take this experience seriously but not necessarily as a life-changer or a "sign" of anything.
Yet.
Wait and see.

The voice of wisdom. My father had a powerful conversion experience and rushed to become a minister in response to it. While he was a wonderful man of faith, he was a terrible minister. I wish that his minister had councilled restraint, because dad ended up realizing that he was not suited to the ministry only years after uprooting the family's lives in pursuit of what was obviously not his calling. The Lord is persistent -- let Him make His plans for you known over time.

--Tom Clune

Posted by DouglasTheOtter (# 17681) on :

Thanks for your responses, everyone.

As you have all said, I'm content to wait. If we're to believe in an all-powerful, omnipresent God, I have to suppose that his plan will become obvious - or clearer - to me in good time.

Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :

Is there a problem here? If you don't approve of this sort of thing, find a nice, quiet, respectable church to attend, where everything is kept strictly under control. You can find anything you want in NYC!

Posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard (# 368) on :

I'm an absolute, utter, sceptic and God has met and continues to meet with me as that. Welcome!

Posted by churchgeek (# 5557) on :

I think refraining from judgment on something like this is a good way to go. A genuine experience stays with you and continues to speak to you when you need it. You don't have to make up your mind about it in order for that to happen. Although I understand wanting to analyze it!

Tangent:

quote:
Originally posted by DouglasTheOtter:
At the moment, I'm recovering from a rather sharp and unpleasant period of mental illness

I'm sorry you've been unwell.

If you're interested at all, we have a private board here called "Waving, not Drowning" for people who deal with mental illness. I find it very helpful, myself.

Welcome to the Ship, too!

/Tangent

[ 25. May 2013, 20:16: Message edited by: churchgeek ]

Posted by DouglasTheOtter (# 17681) on :

Thanks again, everyone, and particularly church geek.

I'll seek that forum out as it feels like it speaks to my particular needs at the moment and... well, it has a title that made me laugh.

As to feeling disconcerted by what happened, well, that's because I'm still very English and, for want of a better word, a bit repressed. That said, my illness means that I'm starting to look at some old habits and ask why I have them. Turns out they're almost all hangovers from an old way of doing things that is now discredited and I'm trying to face the future with courage and optimism.

Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :

If it would fit your personality, you might like to go and sit in a very quiet, empty church, perhaps light a candle, and - in the stillness - think it over and let the experience settle in you. Then it might become more clear what it all means.

(I note that you only have 15 posts at present - in a dim and distant memory of private boards, it might be a requirement of (some?) of them for you to be a shipmate, i.e. over 50 posts first. I'm saying this in case you have difficulty joining and are wondering why.)

Posted by no prophet (# 15560) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
I'm an absolute, utter, sceptic and God has met and continues to meet with me as that. Welcome!

Just meets you? I could do with meeting. God positively harasses me. Can't stand Mr. Damn* some days!

God's last name, according to my younger brother.

Posted by DouglasTheOtter (# 17681) on :

I think the church idea from Chorister (love your avatar!) is a good one. In fact, I think it's such a good idea that I'm going to do it as soon as I find an empty and open church that will allow me to do what you suggest.

Posted by LucyP (# 10476) on :

The Australian poet Les Murray wrote a poem about the reactions of onlookers to a man weeping in a public area in the financial centre of Sydney.

An Absolutely Ordinary Rainbow

quote:
and I see a woman, shining, stretch her hand
and shake as she receives the gift of weeping;
as many as follow her also receive it

and many weep for sheer acceptance, and more
refuse to weep for fear of all acceptance,
but the weeping man, like the earth, requires nothing

US psychologist Larry Crabb, in a book called "The Pressure's Off", wrote this about his experience of having an "over the top" response to a relatively minor trigger:

quote:
I spent an hour last night [...] weeping in prayer. The phone jangled me awake at 12.45. I've heard worse news before, and I've responded with less emotion to more disturbing crises.

For reasons I can't fully sort out, this one struck a deep nerve. [...]

Occasionally, a not visibly severe event gathers into it all the pain and terror of existence, and our souls are undone. Agony rolls down into our deepest heart, and crowding out any experience of gladness or hope. All is dark, with darkness too thick to see even a pinpoint of light. All we can do is wail.

Posted by Crazy Cat Lady (# 17616) on :

"For I know the plans I have for you,” declares the Lord, “plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future."

Jeremiah 29:11 (NIV)

Posted by rolyn (# 16840) on :

quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:

But people weep for all sorts of reasons:

1. Joy

2. Emotional release

3. A stress / nervous reaction

4. Sadness

5. Tragedy

6. An intense awareness of love

7. Pain

I sometimes wonder into what catagory the tears of the Bible's shortest verse fell -- "Jesus wept".
__________________________________________________

I knew of a person who once went to a Midnight Mass service and noticed unexpectedly profound feelings . The experience worried them sufficiently never to go to another church service.

My entry into Christian worship, 12 yrs ago, was relatively emotional . Initially tears seemed close during several services . However, openly blubbing is still regarded as the cutting edge of embarrassment to many of us Brits.

Posted by Emily Windsor-Cragg (# 17687) on :

Happened to me too in 1992, but it could have been yesterday. And I think God gives us these and other difficult experiences to strengthen us for what lies ahead.

I had separated from my husband, the boys were very young, 8 and 4. Edward Scott was in Truro Episcopal School, a charismatic primary school, so one Sunday I attended the Truro service at the Church itself.

The head rector was retiring, so the building was filled 1000 people to capacity, all the balconies were groaning.

During Prayers of the People, the Rector stopped everything because a disabled man [in wheelchair] had something to say. We were all surprised.

And he said, in his halting way, "There's a woman here who needs to forgive her father." [I'm starting to cry already, at the memory.] And it felt like I was standing there shaking and butt-naked, "Wow!" That was me! [My sire abandoned me at birth and then he died before I could know him, and this experience made me realize I had to deal with my paternity legally.]

After the service there was an altar call, and I went down to the rail, still shaking and told the vespers, "That was me, I am called to forgive," and I was sobbing. And a huge load lifted off my shoulders that day.

And I never went back to Truro; I moved away. But I thank God for that experience, difficult and embarrassing as it was. Em

quote:
Originally posted by DouglasTheOtter:
And this is where the difficulty starts.

When the prayer began, I felt reasonably in control. Very quickly, it became obvious to me that I was going to cry and, following fast behind, I found myself sobbing. I didn't feel ashamed of my tears, but deeply and profoundly moved by what was said to me. At the end, I found myself in the lobby, drained, but oddly euphoric.

I'd really like to know... well, I'm casting around for anything in my life that I can use to understand this experience. And I'm failing. Any words or advice on what happened to me and how I might make sense of it would be very, very much appreciated.

[ 27. May 2013, 02:29: Message edited by: Emily Windsor-Cragg ]

Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :

Perhaps it's the cynic in me, but I find myself thinking about the idea that you have to test everything, to avoid charlatans in the business. It may well be that God does speak directly through someone who says they have a message (and if so, and it provides a blessing, then that is wonderful). But it has also been the case, at times, when someone stands up and says something probably appropriate to someone in the large crowd, as a means of manipulation and suggestibility, so the crowd will hold them in higher regard.

How do you tell the difference? I'm not sure, but it is not actually necessary to have people go up the front in full view of everyone to be relieved of a worry or burden, and I would question any situation where this was in some way demanded. I personally would wish to go away quietly to think the situation over, on my own, rather than in a mass meeting. Each to their own, I guess.

Posted by Emily Windsor-Cragg (# 17687) on :

That man's speaking that day in that church changed my life.

So, believe what makes sense to you; but since that day I learned that I have to work on myself ... not on anybody else.

[Smile]

Emily

Posted by Beautiful Dreamer (# 10880) on :

quote:
Originally posted by DouglasTheOtter:
I think the church idea from Chorister (love your avatar!) is a good one. In fact, I think it's such a good idea that I'm going to do it as soon as I find an empty and open church that will allow me to do what you suggest.

I'm not sure what it's like out where you live, but I've found it helpful to spend some time out among nature...a beautiful beach at night with a full moon, the end of a pier looking over a still ocean, walking the dog on a nature trail, etc. I grew up on the coast in North Carolina and we had no shortage of places like this.

I guess you could say it's another way of enjoying the beauty of God's creation. Some people might find that cheesy, but it works for me.

Posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard (# 368) on :

This thread is far too pleasant, therapeutic, supportive. PLEASE LET IT STAY! Not be marginalized elsewhere.

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