Thread: USA to charge fee to cross its border‽ Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.


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Posted by no prophet (# 15560) on :
 
This has come up again Travelling to the USA: Would you pay a cross-border fee?

quote:
Yahoo Canada news:
The American Department of Homeland Security has vowed to look into charging a border fee for every Canadian vehicle and pedestrian crossing into the U.S.

Canada's government has said it will lobby against the proposal, and even American border cities are opposing the idea, saying it will discourage tourism and be bad for their local economies.
Is this reasonable? My travel to Europe has involved sometimes 5 or 7 countries, with no border controls at all except at entry to the EU. Isn't this another step backward? The first one was the requirement for passports. I guess the only fair thing would be to retaliate and charge Americans to come to Canada. It used to be that we said the Canada-USA border was the longest undefended border in the world. I think it is just the longest border now.
 
Posted by Lothiriel (# 15561) on :
 
That story's a month old -- here's a CTV one from yesterday that gives some details about attempts from the northern states that border Canada to stop the study on fees.

The rationale for charging a fee seems to be that Homeland Security needs extra funds to pay for stricter controls at border crossings, presumably to screen out potential terrorists and illegal immigrants. It would be no different from the fee already included in the security tax on an airline ticket to a US destination. As the article points out, the biggest negative impact would be on border communities in the US whose economies currently benefit from Canadians crossing several times a week to shop.

Personally, the fee itself wouldn't bother me. I travel to the States perhaps once a year, and a couple of bucks at the border is no big deal in the vacation budget. But I would be irked by longer waits at the border, which the CTV article also points out as a drawback to the proposal.
 
Posted by the giant cheeseburger (# 10942) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
It used to be that we said the Canada-USA border was the longest undefended border in the world. I think it is just the longest border now.
That would be the border between Russia and Kazakhstan, actually.
 
Posted by Jon in the Nati (# 15849) on :
 
quote:
It used to be that we said the Canada-USA border was the longest undefended border in the world. I think it is just the longest border now.
Well, the U.S. still has a plan in place to invade Canada, should it ever be necessary.

So if our national reserves of denim, mullets and four-percent beer ever run low, you folks to the north better watch out.

[ 28. May 2013, 17:01: Message edited by: Jon in the Nati ]
 
Posted by Augustine the Aleut (# 1472) on :
 
We have carefully marked our highway signs in metric so as to disrupt any possible invasion by the US. Between that and the potency of our native beer, invading forces would collapse by the second day.

With respect to the OP, this has come up in the past and has mainly resulted in border-state congressmen pressuring Homeland Security people to be more realistic. Cross-border shopping has been a local characteristic since shopping began and many malls and employers would lose their customers if there was a deterrent fee.

As my only journeys south of the border are related to shipping my mother back and forth to Florida, it wouldn't bother me, but it would cause much annoyance to tens of thousands of daily commuters. It's another symptom of taxation-by-user fee.
 
Posted by Leorning Cniht (# 17564) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
It's another symptom of taxation-by-user fee.
But this one's even better - it's taxation-by-user-fee, of people who can't vote [Smile]
 
Posted by no prophet (# 15560) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by the giant cheeseburger:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
It used to be that we said the Canada-USA border was the longest undefended border in the world. I think it is just the longest border now.
That would be the border between Russia and Kazakhstan, actually.
That's not correct. The Russia-Kazakstan border is 6846 km, the Canada-USA border is 8,891 km. Nice try though.
 
Posted by the giant cheeseburger (# 10942) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
quote:
Originally posted by the giant cheeseburger:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
It used to be that we said the Canada-USA border was the longest undefended border in the world. I think it is just the longest border now.
That would be the border between Russia and Kazakhstan, actually.
That's not correct. The Russia-Kazakstan border is 6846 km, the Canada-USA border is 8,891 km. Nice try though.
Fail. It takes both Canada-USA borders to match up to the Kazakh-Russian border.
 
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :
 
Which part of "The Canada-USA border" induces you to think it means "only part of the Canada-USA border," Cheeseburger?
 
Posted by no prophet (# 15560) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by the giant cheeseburger:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
quote:
Originally posted by the giant cheeseburger:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
It used to be that we said the Canada-USA border was the longest undefended border in the world. I think it is just the longest border now.
That would be the border between Russia and Kazakhstan, actually.
That's not correct. The Russia-Kazakstan border is 6846 km, the Canada-USA border is 8,891 km. Nice try though.
Fail. It takes both Canada-USA borders to match up to the Kazakh-Russian border.
What on earth are you talking about? Where's your reference to some data. Again, the longest border between 2 countries is between the USA and Canada at 8,891 km. Please tell us the measurement of the Russia-Kazakh border and how it exceeds this please. This same link (in this paragraph) only says the longest single segment of land border is between Russia-Kazakh, but we were never talking about that, so you are still wrong on this.
 
Posted by Sober Preacher's Kid (# 12699) on :
 
There's a land border which stops at Quebec/New York line and then it's a water border across the Great Lakes/St. Lawrence River until you get to the Head of the Lake at Lake Superior. Then it's intermittent land/water until you get to the Northwest Angle.

And the Alaska/BC border doesn't count why, exactly?
 
Posted by Ariston (# 10894) on :
 
People! People! People! Put away your borderpenismeasuringtapes, stop acting like Canadian beer is stronger than American beer,* and get back to the real issue: the fact that this is just a way for cash-strapped Americans to tax what we've always thought of as states 51-63.** Given two facts of American politics at the moment—everyone's taken a funding cut from the "hasn't changed for 5 years" level they were already at, and that we can't tax any good Americans, or even close loopholes that might let us raise money—there's only one way to keep even basic border security and immigration controls funded: tax foreigners. It makes perfect sense, right? They have money, we need money, with a bit of creativity we can fix both problems at once!

Snark aside, it's just another hotel tax: a quick way of raising money that, since it (on the surface, at least) only affects people who can't vote the proposers out of office, is politically risk-free. Since the United States seems to think it's still 1860, when everyone lived on self-sufficent farms in an ever-expanding and boundless West with a distant government that did less and regulated less than your neighbors did (or something like that), we can't pay the taxes/endure the regulations that come with being part of a densely integrated urban and very modern society—that would impinge on our freedom to work our own land and be entirely self-sufficient.

Not that many people actually are small, independent farmers nowadays, but many people think of themselves as one step from this agrarian, rural, and fiercely independent lifestyle—which means that they think of themselves as one step away from not needing the government's help, and thus not needing to pay for government.***

So that's the real issue here: if you can't tax Americans anymore, where can you get money from? Diplomacy and NAFTA be damned, it's a halfway reasonable solution (well, compared to the situation that made it necessary).

*Among American beers worth drinking that is. I realize that the idea that Canadian beer is stronger came from the Bad Old Days where the same swill was measured by weight south of the border and by volume north of it, meaning that the same beer in a Canadian can had a bigger number on it, but, in these enlightened days of Utopias, I think that stereotype can be laid to rest.
**What do you mean, the US didn't come out so well in the last two wars on Canada? With our secret invasion plans, we'll have surpri...oh. Whoops.
***Farm subsidies? What are those?
 
Posted by Mere Nick (# 11827) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Jon in the Nati:


So if our national reserves of denim, mullets and four-percent beer ever run low, you folks to the north better watch out.
I'd expect virtually every microbrewery in the US makes some beers that are way beyond 4%.
 
Posted by Augustine the Aleut (# 1472) on :
 
@Ariston. If the USMC were accustomed to the many excellent US craft beers, Canada would indeed be in trouble. We wouldn't have a chance. Luckily, A Few Good Men swill (brand names omitted to protect the Ship from legal action) and know nothing of a glass of tempranillo at dinner, so our northern purity remains secure.

The oppression of Canadians is, of course, of no import, but the possibility that border-state shopping mall jobs might be at risk, could well be. In any case, cigarette boats will still cross the river near Cornwall Island without benefit of customs.
 
Posted by Zach82 (# 3208) on :
 
Whacky budget balancing schemes like this get floated every now and then, with no hope of ever actually happening. Hardly a year goes by without some schmuck in the Massachusetts state house proposing that we sell off the naming rights to the subway stations in Boston, but who the eff wants to board a train at Domino's Pizza Copley Station?
 
Posted by Gramps49 (# 16378) on :
 
Not going to happen

Though I have learned not to get gas at the Costco in Bellingham, WA. Too many Canadians which cause long lines. I go to Burlington, instead.
 
Posted by no prophet (# 15560) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Ariston:
People! People! People! Put away your borderpenismeasuringtapes, stop acting like Canadian beer is stronger than American beer,* ....
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
I'd expect virtually every microbrewery in the US makes some beers that are way beyond 4%.
-borderpenismeasuringtapes
-microbrewery

I sat up ramrod straight, so to speak. as soon as I saw these two concepts so close together.
 
Posted by Leaf (# 14169) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Jon in the Nati:
... if our national reserves of denim, mullets and four-percent beer ever run low, you folks to the north better watch out.
We ran out of mullets years ago. Try Australia.
 
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
Not going to happen

Though I have learned not to get gas at the Costco in Bellingham, WA. Too many Canadians which cause long lines. I go to Burlington, instead.
Good luck getting into or out of Burlington this month.
 
Posted by Leorning Cniht (# 17564) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Ariston:
Utopias, I think that stereotype can be laid to rest.
Is that any good? How does it compare to this?
 
Posted by Ariston (# 10894) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by Ariston:
Utopias, I think that stereotype can be laid to rest.
Is that any good? How does it compare to this?
Never had either (had Tactical Nuclear Penguin instead of Sink the Bismark the one time I've seen both on offer), can't afford the Utopias, should probably use the birthday check my strictly teetotler grandmother gave me to buy that bottle of StB the local liquor store has had sitting in the glass case for the last year...

Plus, BrewDog is Scottish, not American or Canadian, so irrelevant to the present discussion. Which, granted, may be itself of only tangential relevance, since only about three posts on this thread relate to the OP. So, I guess the actual topic of the thread may as well be a tangent at this point.
 
Posted by The Silent Acolyte (# 1158) on :
 
Now isn't that pretty nifty‽ An interbang in the thread title. Typing out & #8253; (removing the space) gets you one of your own.

[ 29. May 2013, 07:05: Message edited by: The Silent Acolyte ]
 
Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
My travel to Europe has involved sometimes 5 or 7 countries, with no border controls at all except at entry to the EU.
Except for this semi-detached mid-Atlantic bit of the EU which seems determined to prove its virility by turning Eurostar from a simple intercity train journey into a diplomatic minefield.
 
Posted by Dan Druff (# 17703) on :
 
I used to have a penfriend who lived in Windsor, Ontario. It's one of the few places in Canada where those wishing to travel to the USA need to travel north [Cool]
 
Posted by no prophet (# 15560) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
Now isn't that pretty nifty‽ An interbang in the thread title. Typing out & #8253; (removing the space) gets you one of your own.
You noticed. Your instructions work probably for microsoft or maybe other operating systems. I just use an assigned compose key and type the ? and then the !, and a ‽ magically appears.

edit: forgot to say - using Linux.

[ 29. May 2013, 19:57: Message edited by: no prophet ]
 
Posted by Gramps49 (# 16378) on :
 
Very true mousethief. Not planning on going to Blaine, where my daughter lives, until this fall, though.
 
Posted by Horseman Bree (# 5290) on :
 
Will this extra fee (the one in the OP, remember that quaint beginning?) be collected by those eager Minute Men who volunteer to keep the hordes of terrorist moose and beaver from infiltrating the Great North Woods of that place to the south of us?

Come to that, if the border can be patrolled by eager, trigger-happy volunteer Minute Men, why bother paying regular-sized people to do the job as well?

No fee would then be necessary.
 
Posted by Sober Preacher's Kid (# 12699) on :
 
Lessee, as I said Ontario has all water borders with the US from Cornwall to the Head of Lake Superior.

And all those bridges and ferries charge tolls, always have.
I don't recommend swimming Lake Ontario, it's darn cold. Lake Superior is worse.

[ 30. May 2013, 02:15: Message edited by: Sober Preacher's Kid ]
 
Posted by Lothiriel (# 15561) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
Lessee, as I said Ontario has all water borders with the US from Cornwall to the Head of Lake Superior.

And all those bridges and ferries charge tolls, always have.


I don't recommend swimming Lake Ontario, it's darn cold. Lake Superior is worse.
But those tolls are to pay for the bridges and ferries themselves, not simply for crossing the border. The border-crossing fee would be in addition to the bridge/ferry toll, and would also be charged where there is no bridge or ferry, as at most of the border crossings outside of Ontario.
 
Posted by jbohn (# 8753) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Horseman Bree:
Will this extra fee (the one in the OP, remember that quaint beginning?) be collected by those eager Minute Men who volunteer to keep the hordes of terrorist moose and beaver from infiltrating the Great North Woods of that place to the south of us?

Come to that, if the border can be patrolled by eager, trigger-happy volunteer Minute Men, why bother paying regular-sized people to do the job as well?

No fee would then be necessary.
If it keeps out the arrogant, snide, one-lousy-note-trumpeting Canadians beating their same tired, piss-weak drum about eeeevil Americans and their laws, etc. I'm all for a fee.

Canadians who can find something, anything, else to talk about ought be exempted, though. There are a lot of them, and I generally enjoy their company.
 
Posted by Sober Preacher's Kid (# 12699) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Lothiriel:
quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
Lessee, as I said Ontario has all water borders with the US from Cornwall to the Head of Lake Superior.

And all those bridges and ferries charge tolls, always have.

  • Seaway International Bridge (Cornwall ON/Massena NY): $3.25
  • Ivy Lea Bridge (Gananoque ON/Morrisontown NY): $2.75
  • Ogdensburg - Prescott International Bridge (NY/ON): $2.75
  • Wolfe Island Ferry (Kingston ON/Cape Vincent NY): $15
    Lewiston - Queenston Bridge (NY - ON): $3.25
  • Rainbow Bridge Bridge ( Niagara Falls NY - ON): $3.25
  • Peace Bridge (Fort Erie ON /Buffalo NY): $3.00
  • Lake Erie Ferry Leamington ON - Sandusky, OH $21.25
  • Ambassador Bridge (Detroit MI/Windsor ON): $4.75
  • Detroit Windsor Tunnel: $4.75
  • Blue Water Bridge (Sarnia ON/Port Huron MI): $3.00
  • Sault Ste. Marie International Bridge (MI - ON): $3.00)


I don't recommend swimming Lake Ontario, it's darn cold. Lake Superior is worse.
But those tolls are to pay for the bridges and ferries themselves, not simply for crossing the border. The border-crossing fee would be in addition to the bridge/ferry toll, and would also be charged where there is no bridge or ferry, as at most of the border crossings outside of Ontario.
I don't see the different. You have to pay a fee to get to the United States, whether to cross the bridge, get on the ferry or just get through the gate. Same diff.
 
Posted by Lothiriel (# 15561) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
I don't see the different. You have to pay a fee to get to the United States, whether to cross the bridge, get on the ferry or just get through the gate. Same diff.
No fee when it's just a road crossing. For example, a couple of years ago, we crossed from Route 133 in Quebec to the I89 in Vermont -- no money changed hands. At all. Zilch. Nada.
 
Posted by Augustine the Aleut (# 1472) on :
 
A few weeks ago, I made the water crossing from The Snye to Lancaster and back, checking in with the authorities both ways, and not a shekel or a piastre to either Canada or the US.
 
Posted by Sober Preacher's Kid (# 12699) on :
 
Money to cross is money to cross. I don't care if it's water or land. The US can charge me a "visitor's tax", it doesn't matter really. Either way you're going to pay, just as I pay for the insurance to cover my diabetic self when in the land of Very Expensive Hospital Trips.

Truly there are so many more important things than paying a few more bucks to the local Caesar.
 
Posted by Ariston (# 10894) on :
 
See, but it's not the fee itself, is it? It's the principle of the matter, the fact that Canada and the US hardly even think of each other as foreign, that the majority of North America is unified and allied, that we have the United Provinces of Canada and the Dominion of America. Yes, I have to pay a toll to cross the Bay Bridge to get from mainland Maryland to the Eastern Shore, but that's just to use the bridge—there's nothing unfriendly or standoffish about it. This goes against a hundred years of cooperation between our countries, of rampant idealism that national borders shouldn't matter, and that our countries can work together as one to share most of the continent not just in peace, but in harmony and friendship.

It's like if someone invites you to a really great party, you have a great time, you meet some new people and make connections, then, come midnight thirty, they tell you that that keg cost a lot of money, would you mind chipping in, like, five bucks? It's not that five bucks is that much to pay for, it's not that it wouldn't be worth it, it's mostly that hitting up your friends for cash when you know they'd invite you to their equally awesome parties is incredibly lame and Just Not Done.

Okay, fine, that metaphor isn't the greatest, but it almost gets the sentiment across. The fact is, the Canada-US border, because of the immense amount of trade that crosses it and the bonds of diplomatic unity between the two countries, should be no more significant than crossing from state to state or province to province—a welcome sign and free coffee and maps three miles on the other side. This is a breech of that hard-won trust between our nations, and that, more than any pittance of a fee, is what justifies this outrage.
 
Posted by no prophet (# 15560) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Ariston:
See, but it's not the fee itself, is it? It's the principle of the matter, the fact that Canada and the US hardly even think of each other as foreign, that the majority of North America is unified and allied, that we have the United Provinces of Canada and the Dominion of America. Yes, I have to pay a toll to cross the Bay Bridge to get from mainland Maryland to the Eastern Shore, but that's just to use the bridge—there's nothing unfriendly or standoffish about it. This goes against a hundred years of cooperation between our countries, of rampant idealism that national borders shouldn't matter, and that our countries can work together as one to share most of the continent not just in peace, but in harmony and friendship.

It's like if someone invites you to a really great party, you have a great time, you meet some new people and make connections, then, come midnight thirty, they tell you that that keg cost a lot of money, would you mind chipping in, like, five bucks? It's not that five bucks is that much to pay for, it's not that it wouldn't be worth it, it's mostly that hitting up your friends for cash when you know they'd invite you to their equally awesome parties is incredibly lame and Just Not Done.

Okay, fine, that metaphor isn't the greatest, but it almost gets the sentiment across. The fact is, the Canada-US border, because of the immense amount of trade that crosses it and the bonds of diplomatic unity between the two countries, should be no more significant than crossing from state to state or province to province—a welcome sign and free coffee and maps three miles on the other side. This is a breech of that hard-won trust between our nations, and that, more than any pittance of a fee, is what justifies this outrage.
Thank-you for putting into words what I wasn't thinking clearly enough to say. "Children of a common mother" is posted several places along our border. Our commonalities are being set aside it seems.

It used to be as you say. I recall driving to Spokane (Washington) in 1974 for the world's fair. On the way home, we decided to drive east in the USA for a while. When we crossed somewhere on the prairies, don't recall where, the border was open, but there was no one there. They had written a note with directions, so we drove into Canada and turned into a farm yard a couple of miles off the highway. The Canada and USA border guards were having lunch together. They came out, we got checked (well not so much), and drove on our way. Things have greatly changed and I guess, are changing more.
 
Posted by jbohn (# 8753) on :
 
That's how it works for our Northwest Angle border crossing - there's a phone there to call the relevant Customs office to make your declarations.
 
Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :
 
I had to pay about $15 processing for my visa-free access to the USA this time. No such fee existed in 2000 or 2006 to the best of my recollection. So the USA has already started charging its other friends.
 
Posted by Soror Magna (# 9881) on :
 
What's unreasonable is charging people to go in or out, but not charging capital, labour, or goods. "Free trade" has resulted in inanimate objects having more freedom and fewer obligations than real people. I mean, what kind of sense does it make to charge a visa fee for one person to visit the USA, but nothing for a company to export thousands of jobs or import shoddy, dangerous goods or launder money in the biggest banks? Which costs the citizens of the USA more, tourism or off-shoring and tax evasion?
 
Posted by Anglican't (# 15292) on :
 
A slight digression, but is that an Interrobang that I see in the thread title? Do you have some kind of keyboard shortcut for that, because I would've thought it would be quicker just to type '?!'.
 
Posted by no prophet (# 15560) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
A slight digression, but is that an Interrobang that I see in the thread title? Do you have some kind of keyboard shortcut for that, because I would've thought it would be quicker just to type '?!'.
Linux compose key assigned my me to right 'windows' key in keyboard layout, alternatively within xorg.conf, I just hit it and the ?! and there it is, good for accents and other such dual characters. Maybe this can go to the computer thread. You should be able to make complex characters with a similar mechanism in other operating systems, but I'm not the one to know that.
 
Posted by no prophet (# 15560) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
I had to pay about $15 processing for my visa-free access to the USA this time. No such fee existed in 2000 or 2006 to the best of my recollection. So the USA has already started charging its other friends.
Would Canada also charge you? I hipe not, but I expect so.
 
Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :
 
Would the charge apply to all people crossing in a southerly direction? I.e. would US citizens also be charged for re-entering their own country?
 
Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
I had to pay about $15 processing for my visa-free access to the USA this time. No such fee existed in 2000 or 2006 to the best of my recollection. So the USA has already started charging its other friends.
Would Canada also charge you? I hipe not, but I expect so.
Nope. No charge for being here in Canada.
 
Posted by malik3000 (# 11437) on :
 
I totally -- 1000%, one thousand % -- share the sentiments of both no prophet and Ariston. My feelings are ones of great sadness. It hurts that i now would require a passport to go to a place I used to call home (Toronto). It very much IS the principle of the thing. Especially as this paranoid BS was totally instigated by the country of my legal citizenship.

Sort of in line with that, as to the US requirement that the Canadian gov't supply the names all passengers in planes that fly over US trrritory without landing, my question is -- why doesn't Canada tell the US to go to hell with that crap?

[ 03. June 2013, 03:40: Message edited by: malik3000 ]
 
Posted by Clint Boggis (# 633) on :
 
And if all countries absolutely required the names of all those on planes passing over their territory, it might make things a tad awkward for the US Gov when forcibly abducting people.

Anyone who saw Borgen (Danish political drama) will remember the Prime Minister, the central character finding out that a Greenland air base was being used for illegal abductions*.

(*what's the word they use?)
 
Posted by comet (# 10353) on :
 
Please, Govmint, don't be stupid.

I've just moved back to a border town where my family lives. we're 40 or so miles from Canada. The best shopping, nearest (road accessible) hospital, etc are all in Canada. We are the place where all the Canadians take their long weekends up here. This would be a huge hassle. This is a very permeable border, here. School busses cross through customs every day. When I lived down here before, I used to drive back and forth over the border at least twice a month. The passport requirement is a big enough hassle.

quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
And the Alaska/BC border doesn't count why, exactly?
part BC, part YT. a big part.

and yes, let's not discount us up here. We may be the weirdo stepchild, but we are very much in the family.
 
Posted by jbohn (# 8753) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by comet:
and yes, let's not discount us up here. We may be the weirdo stepchild, but we are very much in the family.
But you're *our* weirdo stepchild, and we love you... [Biased]
 


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