Ship of Fools: Medjugorje

Thread: Medjugorje Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by argona (# 14037) on :

I've just come back from a week in Medjugorje, in Herzegovina. You can find out about it here.

It's a place where a number of 'visionaries' have, since childhood, more than thirty years ago, testified to visions of Our Lady which still continue. The messages these visions convey stress a need for prayer, fasting, attendance at Mass, regular confession, with a stress on family commitment. All this in an 'end times' context. Tribulation is imminent, conversion is imperative. Soon it will be too late.

I'm Anglican, and was the only non-Catholic in our group. I was struck by the commitment to, and faith in what was happening shown by everyone I met. While there, I did feel that something real was happening but home again, I'm full of questions and uncertainty. Does anyone have any knowledge or experience of this place?

Posted by The Midge (# 2398) on :

Sounds like similar issues to the Revival in Cwmbran except coming from the Roman Catholic Direction in stead of the Penetcostal tradition.

Posted by Matt Black (# 2210) on :

...and rather more stringently tested.

Posted by Moo (# 107) on :

About twenty years ago I saw something on television that I still cannot explain.

It was a program about Medjugorje, and it showed the three children who had seen the visions before and expected one on this occasion.

They knelt and stared ahead, then suddenly at exactly the same moment they all became still and looked ahead with expressions of rapt delight on their faces. If they didn't all see the same thing at the same time, how did they coordinate the timing so perfectly?

I'm still thinking that one over.

Moo

Posted by Pine Marten (# 11068) on :

Not much knowledge to add, but when I was doing a language course at the City Lit some time back, one of the other people in my class said she was visiting Medjugorje over the Christmas break with her church group, and happily announced to the rest of the class, 'I will pray for you all!'

She brought me back a rosary as a gift, and I was very moved both by her generosity and her faith.

Posted by MrsBeaky (# 17663) on :

I have two Roman Catholic friends who have been on pilgrimage there and more than once too.
Both testified to having had profound spiritual experiences whilst there. Both have a deep and abiding faith in Christ which is expressed in fruitfulness. So the pilgrimages and whatever happened there appear to have added to what was already present in their lives and enriched their walk with God.

Posted by CL (# 16145) on :

A total fraud.

Posted by fletcher christian (# 13919) on :

you seem to be channeling your avatar

Posted by Laurelin (# 17211) on :

quote:
Originally posted by MrsBeaky:
I have two Roman Catholic friends who have been on pilgrimage there and more than once too.
Both testified to having had profound spiritual experiences whilst there. Both have a deep and abiding faith in Christ which is expressed in fruitfulness.

I don't doubt that for a moment ... the effectiveness and authenticity of their faith, I mean.

For myself, coming from a moderate/balanced/nuanced/sometimes sceptical charismatic stance, a big part of me does question this stuff.

People see what they want to see. They go to Lourdes or Medjugorje wanting and expecting a profound spiritual experience mediated through their Catholic filter, and that's exactly what they get because they are in a receptive frame of mind and spirit. Exactly the same could be said of the charismatic paradigm - Toronto, Cwmbran, New Wine, New Frontiers, Pioneer, take your pick. Except that I echo Matt Black's sentiment that at least the RCC does stringently test this kind of popular mysticism (whilst not trying to entirely suppress it either).

I'm used to an 'end-times spin' from my more fundie friends on my particular evangelical spectrum. I'm not wholly unsympathetic to this view either ... it does seem to me that we are nearing the end of SOMETHING. Many secular pundits don't seem very optimistic about where Western civilisation is heading. But as to whether we really are in the Last Days, I have no clue ... and, frankly, neither does anybody else.

I am certainly not sceptical about mysticism per se. I'm fascinated by the writings and visions of Hildegard of Bingen, for example. But I'm also cautious, and have questions. Lots of us, particularly those of us with faith, seek the numinous. I guess we need much wisdom about how we go about seeking it.

Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :

Does this amount to a total fraud? Or something which "cannot be affirmed"?

Posted by Laurelin (# 17211) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Does this amount to a total fraud? Or something which "cannot be affirmed"?

Heh, a lot of well-established Catholic saints would never have got through CL's test, it seems to me. [Biased]

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
About twenty years ago I saw something on television that I still cannot explain.

It was a program about Medjugorje, and it showed the three children who had seen the visions before and expected one on this occasion.

They knelt and stared ahead, then suddenly at exactly the same moment they all became still and looked ahead with expressions of rapt delight on their faces. If they didn't all see the same thing at the same time, how did they coordinate the timing so perfectly?

I'm still thinking that one over.

Moo

Three people, together, suddenly and simultaneously all do exactly the same thing. Nothing necessarily miraculous there; you can see it on stage in any decently choreographed show any night of the week. They practiced their timing.

Not saying that they did this, just that they could have done.

Posted by Percy B (# 17238) on :

I went many years ago and was so impressed by the popular devotion and sincerity of the people and this helped sanctify the place. I found it to be a simple, realistic prayerful place.

It is so sad to read the unsympathetic using language such as 'total fraud.'

I often have doubts about the original visions at such places as Walsingham and Coogee Bay, but I am impressed by the devotion and prayer found in everyday sincere people in those places. They help make the places special and holy.

Posted by Erroneous Monk (# 10858) on :

I have to confess that I don't believe that the Medjugorje apparitions were authentic. And there seems to me to be a big contrast between the relative wealth that I understand has accrued to the Medjugorje visionaries, compared to the short life of service and poverty lived by Bernadette Soubirous, the authenticity of whose visions I don't doubt.

Posted by IngoB (# 8700) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Does this amount to a total fraud? Or something which "cannot be affirmed"?

FWIW, I consider these visions as "not kosher" as well. The idea that the BVM has appeared over ten thousand times to these visionaries, and gives specific annual messages to them, appears to me as out of tune with other apparitions.

The visionaries also have made mistakes in their spiel. Just consider their "10 secrets". Since at least some of the visionaries are supposed to be alive when the "third sign" appears, there is only a finite time left until all this will be exposed as enthusiastic nonsense. Just like "end of the world" prophecies can be falsified eventually.

And if I am proven wrong about this, then that's not a problem for me either. After all, who can complain about the whole world being converted to Christ?

P.S.: Of course at this standard of observable reality, the third sign can appear without any but the faithful noticing. How convenient...

Posted by MrsBeaky (# 17663) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Laurelin
I am certainly not sceptical about mysticism per se. I'm fascinated by the writings and visions of Hildegard of Bingen, for example. But I'm also cautious, and have questions. Lots of us, particularly those of us with faith, seek the numinous. I guess we need much wisdom about how we go about seeking it.

I quite agree and I also agree with your other comments on the charismatic experiences as well. I simply wanted to suggest that despite having questions about what my friends said they had experienced and despite the questions raised about the validity of the visions, when I looked for fruit in the lives of my friends I could see it. I've had several experiences of my own which I can't explain and I would not necessarily want to publicise but which I hope have produced fruit in my own life which has been a source of blessing to others.

Posted by horsethorn (# 17695) on :

Having been sent to Medjugorje (twenty-odd years ago... ) as part of my mom's attempt to re-christianise me, I found it quite fascinating.

I was intrigued by the grove of trees in the centre of town, and that the church, the grove, and the mountain on which they had some of the visions were an almost perfect equilateral triangle (and wished I'd taken my dowsing rods [Biased]

).

I was also interested in the hypothesis that BVM (or similar) visions occur prior to conflict - which happened shortly after I was there... Not guilty, honest [Two face]

I did think it had been partly debunked, though - something to do with the priest prompting them?

ht

Posted by Stetson (# 9597) on :

Albertus wrote:

quote:
Three people, together, suddenly and simultaneously all do exactly the same thing. Nothing necessarily miraculous there; you can see it on stage in any decently choreographed show any night of the week. They practiced their timing.

Not saying that they did this, just that they could have done.

Maybe they were all saying the same prayer(eg. the Hail Mary) in their head, with the understanding that the vision starts immediately after the prayer ends? If they were accustomed to saying the prayer aloud together, they could probably have the timing synchronized to a tee.

[ 30. May 2013, 17:31: Message edited by: Stetson ]

Posted by Spiffy (# 5267) on :

I'm as impressed with it as I am with any place that inspires pilgrimage and devotion.

Which means yeah, sure, it might do something for your own personal faith, but those who are close to the 'action', as it were, should be scrutinized thoroughly, as power and the lure of money has this irksome habit of corrupting.

If I decide to go a-pilgrimmming, I think I'll head to Santiago de Compostela instead, or Villa de Guadalupe. La Madre who's theoretically appearing in Medjugorje doesn't speak to my soul.

Posted by The Midge (# 2398) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
...and rather more stringently tested.

Really?

How so?

Posted by Lawrence (# 4913) on :

I recall in the 80's watching a documentary on this subject and it went into the complexities of the competing views and the tensions between various groups concerning what was going on: Fransicians versus diocesian clergy, the church versus the communist state,croatian nationalism versus the muslims, among other things.

As a bottom line I think we make sites sacred by bringing our sense of the sacred to the sites. It is really about the people who come and what they believe. Bring enough people over a long enough period of time and how can a place not become imbued with a sense of the sacred? I have found that sense of the sacred at several sacred sites I have gone to. Santiago was very moving to me, but I do not believe for a moment that the bones of St. James are buried there and the statue of St. James the moor slayer in the cathedral is a bit disturbing though historically fascinating. The worn stone from centuries of reverent touching was very spiritually moving to me. But I also laughed when I read a history of the cult that indicated that christian armies starting denying that St. James had shown up at their victories over the Moors because otherwise the canons of the shrine would demand a fee be paid for the loan of their saint.

Posted by argona (# 14037) on :

This thread seems to have run its course, thanks to all.

A week on, I think I'm with Spiffy and Lawrence. Pilgrims, guides and (some) clergy have brought much that's good to Medjugorje, but the "apparitions" don't ring true to me, don't speak to my faith. And gosh the commercialisation, the stake it all has in local prosperity.

Still, you can take what's good.

Posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard (# 368) on :

It's nice to see excessive charismatic claims aren't restricted to Cwmbran, God-TV, the evo world in general and that Mother Church has been there long before us.

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