Ship of Fools: Aspergers' Spirituality

Thread: Aspergers' Spirituality Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

Does anyone know of any books or an hy research done about spirituality and people with Asperger's? Or church issues they might have.

I was in a discussion about this today and there seems to be little available material.

Posted by MrsBeaky (# 17663) on :

I don't know of any materials but I have several years experience of teaching in a unit for boys on the autistic spectrum. I have a few observations from RE lessons and assemblies in particular and also the effect of an environment in general on different individuals all of which might feed into your discussion.

Posted by Arethosemyfeet (# 17047) on :

I don't know of any research but as someone with Asperger's myself I think that the traits incline me towards more ritualised forms of Christianity and away from the more free form, emotional varieties. More commonly folk with Aspergers tend toward atheism.

Posted by The Silent Acolyte (# 1158) on :

A few years ago the most trenchant and prolific poster on a prominent atheist forum was the Asperger's twelve year old daughter of a friend. She could positively shred the pathetic arguments of those spiritualistic weiners. She was awesome.

Posted by MSHB (# 9228) on :

quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Does anyone know of any books or an hy research done about spirituality and people with Asperger's? Or church issues they might have.

I was in a discussion about this today and there seems to be little available material.

Well, this is a thesis someone did on the topic:

(WARNING: you will need to edit the link first as the Ship seems to reject links with parentheses - so copy and paste this link into a browser and change the "{MA}" into "(MA)" - leave no spaces - and then press Enter)

http://repository.mcd.edu.au/903/1/2011Th{MA}_Naughtin%2CPJ_Spiritual_Direction_for_Adults_with_
Asperger%27s_Syndrome.pdf

For me (diagnosed with Asperger's), church has a number of issues:

* structure vs lack of structure - I need predictability, so liturgy wins, and the unexpected can be stressful.

* social interaction - sitting around in a circle is worse than "all face the front".

* peace greeting - really wish I was somewhere else

* don't ask me to look my neighbour in the eye as I sing some song - aaaaagh sensory and emotional overload

* sensory issues - I hate it if the speaker shouts - I shut down at that point (overload) and cease hearing their message

* don't understand spontaneous hugging and kissing - how do people KNOW when to lurch at someone else and do that stuff? Also, I tend to "freeze" if unexpectedly hugged, touched, etc.

* misophonia - I hate certain sounds, so people eating or drinking in church is a problem for me (yes, it happens)

* tambourines - you may feel inspired by them, I am gritting my teeth. That goes for people playing "bongos" on the seat in front of them as they stand and sing - it is very distracting

* I love peace and calm, and songs that I know (please don't alter the words to make them more "meaningful") so I can switch off the anxious brain and focus on a known set of words

So - social issues, sensory issues, and emotional issues (I am likely to be near anxiety attack when I arrive, so calming down is my first task) - and the need for calmness and predictability.

[Line break inserted into link for my sanity.
-Gwai]

[ 05. June 2013, 14:41: Message edited by: Gwai ]

Posted by MSHB (# 9228) on :

On the positive side, Aspies are quite capable of contemplative prayer. There is an idea around that we are so rational, non-social, and anti-emotional-expression (think Mr Spock from Star Trek) that we would "obviously" enjoy intellectual matters (Bible study? theology?) and would be "non-mystical". But I think it is quite possible for an Aspie to be focused more on music or contemplation/mindfulness (very calming) instead - or on other things (social justice?). We do vary a lot - there is no one Asperger spirituality.

As for social engagement, there are Aspies who are interested in psychology - in people-related issues. But we might take a more idealistic or scientific approach to such matters, for example. Like many introverts, we may like people, but in small doses. A *little* social interaction goes a long way.

Posted by Olaf (# 11804) on :

It is unfortunate that the loud and proud overwhelmingly tend to be the ones who rise to leadership positions. This can bode poorly for people with Aspergers'. (That said, Anglicanism seems to be peculiar in that I seem to encounter many people with Asperger tendencies in the priestly ranks. Perhaps rote prayer books are the draw?)

For church issues, see this from the National Autistic Society. Be sure to click "Show article as a single page" or page through it.

This is also nice.

Some other research, if you can manage to obtain copies:

Could Everyone Talk to God? A Case Study on Asperger's Syndrome, Religion, and Spirituality, Visuri, Ingela, Journal of Religion, Disability & Health, 2012, Vol.16(4), pp.352-378

Through a Different Lens: Spirituality in the Lives of Individuals with Asperger's Syndrome, Dubin, Nick ; Graetz, Janete. Journal of Religion, Disability & Health, 2009, Vol.13(1), p.29-39

Methodological Issues in Exploring the Ideas of Children with Autism Concerning Self and Spirituality, Lewis, Ann, Journal of Religion, Disability & Health, 2009, Vol.13(1), p.64-76

[ 05. June 2013, 02:50: Message edited by: Olaf ]

Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :

Simpler version of MSHB's link, via TinyUrl.

Posted by MrsBeaky (# 17663) on :

quote:
Originally posted by MSHB:
So - social issues, sensory issues, and emotional issues (I am likely to be near anxiety attack when I arrive, so calming down is my first task) - and the need for calmness and predictability.

I think that this applies perhaps in lesser measure to a lot of the rest of us too especially the less extrovert amongst us!

The boys I taught came from different faith perspectives and they were brilliant and sometimes remarkably passionate at arguing their respective cases.

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

quote:
Originally posted by MrsBeaky:

quote:
Originally posted by MSHB:
So - social issues, sensory issues, and emotional issues (I am likely to be near anxiety attack when I arrive, so calming down is my first task) - and the need for calmness and predictability.
I think that this applies perhaps in lesser measure to a lot of the rest of us too especially the less extrovert amongst us!

I think that too.

Lots of helpful stuff to get my teeth into but keep it coming!

Posted by Mark Betts (# 17074) on :

quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
A few years ago the most trenchant and prolific poster on a prominent atheist forum was the Asperger's twelve year old daughter of a friend. She could positively shred the pathetic arguments of those spiritualistic weiners. She was awesome.

Do you mean she disagreed with atheists or critics of atheism?

Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :

quote:
MSHB: * don't ask me to look my neighbour in the eye as I sing some song - aaaaagh sensory and emotional overload

Do they do that? [Ultra confused]

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Simpler version of MSHB's link, via TinyUrl.

Or this.

[Code fix - DT, Purgatory Host]

[ 05. June 2013, 19:09: Message edited by: Doublethink ]

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

This paper is excellent. I would commend it not only to Sp. directors but to all in congregations which want to include those who are 'different'.

We are all 'different' in any case so this paper has wider implications that its subject matter.

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

quote:
Originally posted by MrsBeaky:
I don't know of any materials but I have several years experience of teaching in a unit for boys on the autistic spectrum. I have a few observations from RE lessons and assemblies in particular and also the effect of an environment in general on different individuals all of which might feed into your discussion.

I suspect you and i know much of the same stuff.

As a head of RE for over 20 years and as a form tutor who had many Asperger's allotted to my groups because the Special Needs Dept. thought I was 'sound', I have done a lot of thinking and observing, which I am now trying to harvest in my new-ish role as a spiritual director.

Posted by MrsBeaky (# 17663) on :

quote:
Originally posted by leo
I suspect you and i know much of the same stuff.

I suspect you know a lot more than me!
All the boys I worked with had common needs as to a supportive environment, with individual needs as regards things like sensory issues and into that mix came their thinking and feeling about faith matters.
Quite a juggling act as the teacher in charge but a real joy too.

Posted by Custard (# 5402) on :

Another bit of the church where folk with Asperger's can thrive is the conservative evangelical scene. Predictable services, clear logical teaching, Bible exposition, nothing too emotional or weird.

Posted by Melangell (# 4023) on :

I know there is a book by John Gillibrand, who is a priest in the Church in Wales [Anglican] and who himself has an autistic teenage son. The title is Disabled Church - Disabled Society , publ by Jessica Kingsley in 2009, ISBN: 9781843109686. New and S/H copies available at AbeBooks ; I haven't linked to a specific copy as inevitably that one will have been sold... but the blurbs listed under most copies give a fuller description of the contents. I haven't seen the book myself; I am simply aware of it because the author is a friend of friends of mine.

Posted by LQ (# 11596) on :

Fr Gillibrand was among those (along with Temple Grandin and a classmate of Anglican_Brat`s and mine) interviewed for a CBC programme on autism and religion. Particularly intriguing to me was the Toronto synagogue with a special-ed bnei mitzvah class for kids on the spectrum.

[ 09. June 2013, 04:47: Message edited by: LQ ]

Posted by MSHB (# 9228) on :

quote:
Originally posted by MrsBeaky:

quote:
Originally posted by MSHB:
So - social issues, sensory issues, and emotional issues (I am likely to be near anxiety attack when I arrive, so calming down is my first task) - and the need for calmness and predictability.
I think that this applies perhaps in lesser measure to a lot of the rest of us too especially the less extrovert amongst us!

A lot of people with Asperger's are introverts and would share all the common introvert gripes, strengths and weaknesses. That said, there are some extroverted people with Asperger's too, and I have no idea what their response would be. That would be interesting to hear.

In terms of the differences between Asperger's and introversion, I think people with Asperger's are likely to be more sensitive to sensory issues - I certainly am. Also, we often have much poorer social and emotional intelligence than other introverts (I do). So we don't pick up very well on the social nuances. There are a number of aspects to this, but one is difficulty feeling accepted: if you don't know how other people feel, you cannot tell if they really like you (as opposed to just being politely nice).

A lot of the social and emotional life of a church will just go over my head - or feel very foreign to me.

An analogy: one pilot can see the ground, the trees, and the mountains and steer between them all, or over them, just by looking at them. Another pilot can see nothing except the instrument panel, and has to fly by logic alone, not sight ("If I travel in this direction and stay at that height then I should be safely above the mountains"). Aspies spend a lot of time "flying blind" through social situations. We have to think through social situations because we can't intuit them. And we are often as much of an emotional mystery to ourselves as other people are to us - I often cannot tell what I feel, and I cannot guess very well what you feel. And I don't know what to do about it even if I can identify it, and I might find it hard to know why I am feeling that way (this is called "alexithymia" - see Wikipedia article - and is very common among people on the spectrum, but also found in many other people).

Posted by MrsBeaky (# 17663) on :

Thanks MSHB, that is really, really helpful.

I learned a lot from the boys I taught: a lot about their own challenges (sensory emotional etc) but I also learned a lot about myself.
Much food for thought it what you said.

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

Thank you everyone on this thread.

I have followed up the various links - and the links from those links - all very helpful.

Posted by Fineline (# 12143) on :

If you want another link, there is an autobiography of a guy with Aspergers, and how he came to find faith. It is called A Painful Gift - the Journey of a Soul with Autism.

I read it a couple of years ago. I wanted to read an autistic perspective on faith, since I have Aspergers myself, and I find a lot of people's interpretation of faith is largely influenced by how their mind works. I realised that my faith seemed a little different from that of neurotypical people, and I wanted to read something on faith that I could relate to. It is an interesting read, although not very much about faith - more about his journey before he found faith, and the difficulties he had.

Something I find in my faith is that I have a very all or nothing approach. I want to give everything to God. I get frustrated by what seems to me to be inconsistency in other Christians. I have inconsistency too, but I acknowledge it and it bothers me a great deal and my aim is to give myself fully to God, and to be totally focused on him all the time. I am actually now looking into becoming a contemplative nun, because it seems to me the only way I can fully live out my faith, with the way that my mind works.

I also relate more to mysticism - I am not a Catholic, but Catholic books about faith often make more sense to me than the evangelical ones I grew up with. To me it makes sense that God is a mystery, and that we with our human minds can't possibly define him and claim to understand him and have all the answers. I find it easier to focus on God in silence than with noise.

As someone said earlier, atheism seems more common among people with Aspergers. Most people I know with Aspergers are atheist. However, I have one friend with Aspergers who is a Roman Catholic priest. And another friend with Aspergers who is from a very evangelical Baptist background, conservative and 'charismatic'. She thinks Catholicism is evil, and would never even go into a Catholic church. The Catholic priest, on the other hand, thinks that all denominations can learn from each other. I think there is no one particular 'Asperger spirituality', just as there is no one neurotypical spirituality. We are all very different. But of course the way our brains work influences how we understand and live out our faith, and how we relate to God.

Posted by Stercus Tauri (# 16668) on :

This article about an autistic man may be relevant: http://presbyterianrecord.ca/2005/05/01/loving-people-is-loving-god/. He's unable to speak, but communicates clearly using his keyboard with a facilitator to support him.

Posted by LutheranChik (# 9826) on :

I'm struck by how many points also apply to persons with PTSD -- a need for predictability and "safe space"; an aversion to touchy-feely; etc. Seeing as how many veterans are going to be returning home after service in Afghanistan, I hope the Powers That Be in churches back home try and re-integrate them with as much sensitivity as they can.

Posted by TheDuck (# 15448) on :

My adult son is diagnosed aspergers and after years of family therapy our family therapist feels i am also. I am the type of person who likes to be invisible in a crowd and am not fond of the peace offering in church as i am not fond of being touched or hugged by strangers. I also like the litergical and theology aspect of church. My son loves to sing clap his hands and will dance in the isle if given a chance. He is very outgoing and social and loves the meet and greet times the best. He dosent really understand the theology part and is not into deep contemplation of things. I do have to stay close to him during church when he talks to people so i can either explain what he is trying to say to someone or pull him away one the person has listened long enough since he cannot catch social clues or know when to end a conversation.

Posted by Fineline (# 12143) on :

quote:
Originally posted by LutheranChik:
I'm struck by how many points also apply to persons with PTSD -- a need for predictability and "safe space"; an aversion to touchy-feely; etc.

I suspect that many 'autistic traits' are simply universal human ways of reacting to feeling a complete lack of control. In autism/Aspergers, this is because the brain doesn't automatically make sense of its surroundings, and in PTSD, it is because the person has been in a traumatic situation where they had no control. I find a lot of non-autistic people say they sometimes have autistic traits, and I observe it is in situations where they feel lack of control and they want to have some kind of control.

There are some differences too. I used to have PTSD, and it involved a lot of nightmares and flashbacks. When I got better from the PTSD, those stopped. It took a while for me to disentangle which aspects of myself were PTSD and which were Aspergers.

Posted by Fineline (# 12143) on :

quote:
Originally posted by TheDuck:
My son loves to sing clap his hands and will dance in the isle if given a chance. He is very outgoing and social and loves the meet and greet times the best.

I find a lot of people on the autism spectrum are very outgoing. I don't think it's necessarily true that people with Aspergers tend to be introverts - I find there is a mix. However, in adulthood, people with Aspergers can learn to be more introverted due to not being accepted socially. If people reject you a lot, then you are less likely to approach them and be friendly. I am a mix of introvert and extrovert, but due to sensory issues, I choose to spend a lot of time alone, where I can control my environment so I don't get sensory overload.

Posted by LQ (# 11596) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Fineline:

quote:
Originally posted by TheDuck:
My son loves to sing clap his hands and will dance in the isle if given a chance. He is very outgoing and social and loves the meet and greet times the best.
I find a lot of people on the autism spectrum are very outgoing. I don't think it's necessarily true that people with Aspergers tend to be introverts - I find there is a mix. However, in adulthood, people with Aspergers can learn to be more introverted due to not being accepted socially. If people reject you a lot, then you are less likely to approach them and be friendly.

Let's also not conflate introversion with shyness - lots of introverts are outgoing too.

Posted by Indifferently (# 17517) on :

I know quite a few autistic Christians. They appreciate a rigid dogmatic structure, which can be provided them in most churches, but is most easily available in the RCC. One is an RC Priest.

Posted by Fineline (# 12143) on :

quote:
Originally posted by LQ:

quote:
Originally posted by Fineline:

quote:
Originally posted by TheDuck:
My son loves to sing clap his hands and will dance in the isle if given a chance. He is very outgoing and social and loves the meet and greet times the best.
I find a lot of people on the autism spectrum are very outgoing. I don't think it's necessarily true that people with Aspergers tend to be introverts - I find there is a mix. However, in adulthood, people with Aspergers can learn to be more introverted due to not being accepted socially. If people reject you a lot, then you are less likely to approach them and be friendly.
Let's also not conflate introversion with shyness - lots of introverts are outgoing too.

I'm not conflating introversion with shyness, but then I have never understood 'outgoing' to be the opposite of 'shy', so I don't retract my use of 'outgoing'. In my understanding, being outgoing has traditionally been one of the descriptors of extraversion, in addition to the concept of getting one's energy from other people. It's pretty much what 'extraverted' literally means - a turning outwards rather than inwards. Both the OED and Wikipedia equate outgoing with extraverted. To my understanding, an introvert can of course engage in outgoing behaviour, but is not intrinsically outgoing. Maybe you have a different definition of outgoing, or a different definition of extravert/introvert?

Posted by Gwai (# 11076) on :

Real question about that, because I'm not sure if I'm confused or no. If someone finds crowds exhausting because she feels she can't relax and is to some degree always performing, I'd say that sounds like introversion even if said person is outgoing while she's 'performing." Right?

Posted by Fineline (# 12143) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:
Real question about that, because I'm not sure if I'm confused or no. If someone finds crowds exhausting because she feels she can't relax and is to some degree always performing, I'd say that sounds like introversion even if said person is outgoing while she's 'performing." Right?

I'm not sure what pure introversion feels like. I find crowds exhausting because of sensory overload due to Aspergers, and interaction with several people exhausting because of difficulty multitasking, also due to Aspergers. I'm actually a mix of introvert and extravert, and slightly more extravert than introvert, according to the Myers Briggs test.

But I'd say if someone is introvert, then yes, they can act outgoing in a crowd situation, and they are being outgoing at that time, but it is not their intrinsic personality. I don't know if they can't relax - I would think that is more social anxiety. I can't relax in situations where there is too much sensory stimulation, or if I'm not sure how people are reading me, or what I'm supposed to say - again, all Asperger stuff. I don't know if introversion means a person can't relax in a crowd - I've never heard of that. But it is tiring for an introverted person.

Posted by LQ (# 11596) on :

It's worth recalling that the introvert/extravert distinction is originally about the locus of one's most significant mental activity. (More purist Jungians will look askance at what they take to be the revisionism of M-B). So, it's possible to be someone who is most at home with their own thoughts, and yet enjoys the company of others.

For me, at least, there's a significant difference between a setting where I know at least a critical mass of people and groups of strangers. I saw an INTJ meme to this effect on the web, lampooning the tendency to swing between affable and aloof.

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