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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Coronation service: Saying something?
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shamwari
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# 15556
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Posted
The Queen celebrated 60 years in a special service today.
It was noteworthy for its omission of any Free Church participation in leading the worship.
Even the Lutherans got a show in.
Were the Methodists, Baptists, URC and the like deliberately ignored?
or am I being over-sensitive?
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
Yep - all the usual suspects out in force including public schoolboys singing the praise of the queen. Did normal children from a state school get a look in?
It would be VERY interesting to see who was on the guest list.
Didn't say anything to me I'm afraid except to remind me that the old power structures in our nation are still as powerful as ever. But then again we do seem to suspend all our critical faculties when it comes to the inhabitants of Buckingham Palace. You always know when it's time for a dose of them because the news readers adopt a "silly grin" attitude and a patronising tone.
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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Mudfrog
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# 8116
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Posted
So you missed the procession then that brought the oil to the altar? A girl scout, 2 primary school kids, a nurse, a lollypop lady, a sailor, a judge and a couple of chelsea pensioner.
No ordinary people there then.
[ 04. June 2013, 18:12: Message edited by: Mudfrog ]
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
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anne
Shipmate
# 73
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Posted
And as I understand it, the queens Guide carrying the flask of oil at the beginning of that procession is in training as a Methodist Preacher.
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‘I would have given the Church my head, my hand, my heart. She would not have them. She did not know what to do with them. She told me to go back and do crochet' Florence Nightingale
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Trisagion
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# 5235
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Posted
Wasn't the guy from Norn Iron a Presbyterian? Doesn't that make him as non-con?
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ceterum autem censeo tabula delenda esse
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
shamwari: The Queen celebrated 60 years in a special service today.
There are a lot of jokes in the Netherlands involving imaginary conversations between King Willem-Alexander (whose mother abdicated) and Prince Charles.
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Heavenly Anarchist
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# 13313
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
shamwari: The Queen celebrated 60 years in a special service today.
There are a lot of jokes in the Netherlands involving imaginary conversations between King Willem-Alexander (whose mother abdicated) and Prince Charles.
Private Eye currently has a serial on Charles' desperation for his mother to abdicate. He keeps hearing the second half of news articles on someone abdicating and getting his hopes up.
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Dog Activity Monitor
My shop
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
There was a cartoon in one of the papers recently. HMQ is shown reading a paper with the headline "Queen Beatrix to retire" and underneath, the simple word "Wuss".
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Pre-cambrian
Shipmate
# 2055
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Posted
Just as a matter of interest, ExclamationMark, how many chips do you have on each shoulder?
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"We cannot leave the appointment of Bishops to the Holy Ghost, because no one is confident that the Holy Ghost would understand what makes a good Church of England bishop."
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The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
So you missed the procession then that brought the oil to the altar? A girl scout, 2 primary school kids, a nurse, a lollypop lady, a sailor, a judge and a couple of chelsea pensioner.
No ordinary people there then.
What's a lollypop lady?
Posts: 7462 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
So you missed the procession then that brought the oil to the altar? A girl scout, 2 primary school kids, a nurse, a lollypop lady, a sailor, a judge and a couple of chelsea pensioner.
No ordinary people there then.
What's a lollypop lady?
A lollypop lady (sometimes a lollypop man) is a person who crosses children over the road to get to and from school. Very often they are pensioners.
Like This
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
What's a lollypop lady?
A person who stops cars so that children going to and from school can cross the road.
Here are some pictures of them. What are yours called?
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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lily pad
Shipmate
# 11456
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Posted
Called a school crossing guard here.
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Sloppiness is not caring. Fussiness is caring about the wrong things. With thanks to Adeodatus!
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pre-cambrian:
Just as a matter of interest, ExclamationMark, how many chips do you have on each shoulder?
Enough to fill a chip shop. Being a fenman I do have more shoulders than most, and broader ones at that (able to fit more chips on). I have to say, though, that the extra heads associated with said shoulders were removed soon after birth.
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
So you missed the procession then that brought the oil to the altar? A girl scout, 2 primary school kids, a nurse, a lollypop lady, a sailor, a judge and a couple of chelsea pensioner.
No ordinary people there then.
MF, you're one of the last I'd want to wind up but my previous hyperbole aside - about 8 out of 2000? That makes it 0.4%. (Surely you can't count the Judge - they're about as establishment and old school as you can get).
It would've been a brilliant idea if the school choir had not been that of Westminster School but a state school instead. I'd have loved it if one of the Army Corps bands (Salvation that is), and songsters were doing it. Now that would be a message!
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
I agree entirely. I often wonder what it would be like if there were a school choir or a salvation Army band (instead of the military) but I suppose the Dean would not be happy with non-Anglicans actually providing the worship.
In any case, if there were a school choir from "Dump Street Country Primary" singing 'One More Step Along the World I Go', would it be acceptable to all the sniffy music buffs who would turn up their noses at anything that wasn't of the content and calibre of what we witnessed.
It wasn't so long ago that, following the Royal wedding, there were people here on the ship bemoaning the fact that the Abbey Choir had sung a Rutter song.
I think we're happy to listen to 'posh boys' singing their high falutin' tunes - at least we know what we'll get.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
... and further to that; once you open it up to a Salvation Army songster brigade (choir) the next 'equality and diversity' demand will be that at the next Royal church service we'll have to have the local gay men's chorus singing Diamonds Are a Girls' Best Friend and Brian May doing a rendition of Killer Queen with George Michael ![[Biased]](wink.gif) (!)
[ 05. June 2013, 08:02: Message edited by: Mudfrog ]
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
I think we're happy to listen to 'posh boys' singing their high falutin' tunes - at least we know what we'll get.
Yes the same old, same old class divisions repeated ad nauseam.
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
I think we're happy to listen to 'posh boys' singing their high falutin' tunes - at least we know what we'll get.
Yes the same old, same old class divisions repeated ad nauseam.
I do have to say, however, that class is perhaps something that the left like to keep going so they can bash people with it. After all, there really is nothing to stop any school starting up a choir that will sing Parry and Vaughan Williams, is there? It is the Left however who will say that even the music is too posh and therefore keep themselves out of the culture where these things are valued.
I'm not posh and I certainly appreciated the music in the service.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
I think we're happy to listen to 'posh boys' singing their high falutin' tunes - at least we know what we'll get.
Yes the same old, same old class divisions repeated ad nauseam.
I do have to say, however, that class is perhaps something that the left like to keep going so they can bash people with it. After all, there really is nothing to stop any school starting up a choir that will sing Parry and Vaughan Williams, is there? It is the Left however who will say that even the music is too posh and therefore keep themselves out of the culture where these things are valued.
I'm not posh and I certainly appreciated the music in the service.
Will you please identify people that could be said to be of the Left, rather than simply stating "the Left".
You do this far too often and I'm afraid it devalues rather than strengthens any point you are trying to make. Then again, you might get a cheap thrill out of vilifying the Left, rather as I do out of being rude about golf.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
Bit sensitive aren't we? It's not as if I invented the term. The Left, the Elite, the Establishment, the Homeless, the Right...
It's just a figure of speech used to identify an attitude, a position, a group.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
Bit sensitive aren't we? It's not as if I invented the term. The Left, the Elite, the Establishment, the Homeless, the Right...
It's just a figure of speech used to identify an attitude, a position, a group.
True, but it's a very boring figure of speech, and I thought you might want to be taken seriously. We are in Purgatory after all after all.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
Hmmm... I think if EM can get away with the rather vague 'class divisions', then Mudfrog can with 'The Left'. Sauce for the goose and all that...
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
I promise that I will try to write in a more exciting way in future ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
@ Exclamation Mark & Mudfrog
The 'posh boys' were the scholars from Westminster School: that is, they are the boys who have won free academic tuition.
They shout the vivats in I was glad because they are the people who the composer, Charles Hubert Hastings Parry, wrote it for.
And he wrote it for the scholars because they were more likely to be bright boys from ordinary backgrounds who were at Westminster by virtue of their academic prowess rather than parental wealth.
So you can BOTH remove your chip(s)!
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
@ Exclamation Mark & Mudfrog
The 'posh boys' were the scholars from Westminster School: that is, they are the boys who have won free academic tuition.
They shout the vivats in I was glad because they are the people who the composer, Charles Hubert Hastings Parry, wrote it for.
And he wrote it for the scholars because they were more likely to be bright boys from ordinary backgrounds who were at Westminster by virtue of their academic prowess rather than parental wealth.
So you can BOTH remove your chip(s)!
It's fine - I have no issue with so-called 'class'; it's Mark I was replying to and I did put 'posh' in quotes in reflection of his attitude.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
@ Exclamation Mark & Mudfrog
The 'posh boys' were the scholars from Westminster School: that is, they are the boys who have won free academic tuition.
They shout the vivats in I was glad because they are the people who the composer, Charles Hubert Hastings Parry, wrote it for.
And he wrote it for the scholars because they were more likely to be bright boys from ordinary backgrounds who were at Westminster by virtue of their academic prowess rather than parental wealth.
So you can BOTH remove your chip(s)!
Please see my response to Pre Cambrian up thread - there's still space for a few more chips yet!
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by shamwari:
Were the Methodists, Baptists, URC and the like deliberately ignored?
or am I being over-sensitive?
So, now you've had a few answers, how would you answer your own question? I'd be very surprized if there wasn't an almost clinically representative spread of people, faith, occupation and denomination at this bash, as there usually is at all these shindigs.
Exclamation Mark, I agree with you about the tone of the news commentators. Though I suppose on such an occasion - a royal celebration - they're very unlikely to sit there sneering and sniping. It does seem more logical they'll find good things to say.
I'm sure most of us would rather have our achievements highlighted in public by people who weren't apathetic and/or our worst enemies. Fun as that would be for those who hate us!
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Stephen
Shipmate
# 40
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
The 'posh boys' were the scholars from Westminster School: that is, they are the boys who have won free academic tuition.
They shout the vivats in I was glad because they are the people who the composer, Charles Hubert Hastings Parry, wrote it for.
And he wrote it for the scholars because they were more likely to be bright boys from ordinary backgrounds who were at Westminster by virtue of their academic prowess rather than parental wealth.
So you can BOTH remove your chip(s)!
I've got a whole bundle of french fries with that
When oh when are they going to pronounce the Latin correctly? They make 'Vivat Regina' sound like an out of order toilet ![[Mad]](angryfire.gif)
Grrr.......
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Best Wishes
Stephen
'Be still,then, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the nations and I will be exalted in the earth' Ps46 v10
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
I would say over-sensitive. In the procession was not just the Chair of the Methodist Conference but also the leader of the Free Church Group*, a Lutheran as co-President of CTE does lead a prayer and I am pretty sure Lutheran counts as historic Free churches. We have also a Free Church person from Wales, Moderator of the Church of Scotland and a hymn by a Reformed pastor to send people out with.
Jengie
*Free Church group is the successor group to the Free Church Federal Council (which I think took over from the Board of Deputies), which is the body that works as an over arching group for Non-Conformist Protestants.
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
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otyetsfoma
Shipmate
# 12898
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Posted
What does Stephen consider "correct" Latin pronunciation?"More Romano" - how it is done by modern Italians? "Reformed Classical" invented by scholars in the late 19th century? Or as commonly done by lawyers and presiding officers of CofE synods etc ?
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shamwari
Shipmate
# 15556
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Posted
None of which answers my question.
Those who led the service (including the intercessions) were all of the "established" Church and no Free Church ( Non Conformists) were included.
I dont see where the Lutherans ( who were included) fit in.
You can argue till the cows come home that Lollypop Ladies and Scouters etc were included in the service.
But the fact remains that Free Church leaders were excommunicated from any role in the leadership of worship.
Typical of the "effortless superiority of the Anglican communion" that they were excluded.
And this " effortless superiority" is what annoys and frustrates those of us who desire Union at a time when society is against all "religion".
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DouglasTheOtter
Ship's aquatic mammal
# 17681
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Posted
To be honest... I struggle with this stuff.
Firstly, I'm a republican who would happily do away with the monarchy in a resolutely non-killy and, secondly, there's something about the image of the House of Windsor congratulating itself that makes me feel a bit ill. It's all very resolutely high church and it feels at those moments like God is very far away, hopefully with some poor people who need Him a lot more.
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
Douglas, despite being high church/Anglo-Catholic myself (but also anti-monarchy), I feel much the same way.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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Panda
Shipmate
# 2951
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by shamwari:
None of which answers my question.
... But the fact remains that Free Church leaders were excommunicated from any role in the leadership of worship.
...
Um, no. There were no excommunications performed at that service. I think perhaps you mean 'excluded', and even that is not the same as 'not included'.
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DouglasTheOtter
Ship's aquatic mammal
# 17681
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Posted
Thanks, Jade. I have to stress that it very much is the non-killy kind, but I can't see, or maybe don't have the spiritual maturity to find God in those big state occasions when it seems that so much is there from the secular world that religious considerations are secondary.
I read a piece some years ago by a Catholic journalist who went to pray in a small church in Rome, early in the morning, before his working day. He smiled at the old gentleman who walked past his pew and then realised with shock that it was Pop John Paul II in 'civilian' clothes, there by himself for whatever reason.
That's the kind of rite that draws me in - small, quiet and intimate.
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Posts: 171 | From: Twickenham | Registered: May 2013
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Trisagion
Shipmate
# 5235
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by shamwari:
None of which answers my question.
Those who led the service (including the intercessions) were all of the "established" Church and no Free Church ( Non Conformists) were included.
That's because your assumption is simply wrong. T
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by DouglasTheOtter:
To be honest... I struggle with this stuff.
Firstly, I'm a republican who would happily do away with the monarchy in a resolutely non-killy and, secondly, there's something about the image of the House of Windsor congratulating itself that makes me feel a bit ill. It's all very resolutely high church and it feels at those moments like God is very far away, hopefully with some poor people who need Him a lot more.
It might make poor people who are also monarchists very contented though?
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Avila
Shipmate
# 15541
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Posted
So a state church led a state event.
Sounds normal enough.
And a wide range of society including other denominations invited to attend.
As a chapel girl I am happy to let the parish clergy worry about the Mayor's Civic service and such like. I don't feel done out of leading these events.
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http://aweebleswonderings.blogspot.com/
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Emily Windsor-Cragg
Shipmate
# 17687
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by shamwari:
The Queen celebrated 60 years in a special service today.
It was noteworthy for its omission of any Free Church participation in leading the worship.
Even the Lutherans got a show in.
Were the Methodists, Baptists, URC and the like deliberately ignored?
or am I being over-sensitive?
I would notice such a tendency also ... After all, there are also autonomous Christian denominations that accept no Teachings but Jesus':
Quakers and other Anabaptists, the TwelveTribes and other religious and devotional communities.
None who cleave to the Covenant should be left out, I think.
But as we all notice, conventionalism seems to rule.
EEWC
Posts: 326 | From: California | Registered: May 2013
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
[QUOTE]Exclamation Mark, I agree with you about the tone of the news commentators. Though I suppose on such an occasion - a royal celebration - they're very unlikely to sit there sneering and sniping. It does seem more logical they'll find good things to say.
That's true but does have it have to be so smug and twee? The newsreaders dont adopt the same kind of attitude for other feel good stories in my observation.
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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Amos
Shipmate
# 44
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Posted
Reading through this thread with a bit of a sigh I'm just piping in to say that I would have loved the service to have included 'One More Step Along the World I Go.' It wouldn't need to have been sung by a choir from a state primary school ('Ooh look! Here are the common children singing one of their own songs!')--it could have been sung by the congregation, or, fabulously by the combined choirs of the Abbey and the Chapel Royal. It would have been gorgeous and a hoot.
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At the end of the day we face our Maker alongside Jesus--ken
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DouglasTheOtter
Ship's aquatic mammal
# 17681
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Posted
The problem with a state church is that 'smug and twee' are almost a default setting. Power gets entrenched, there are sundry things that you don't need to worry about and everyone ends up getting a little bit too comfortable.
As to the newsreaders being smug and twee as well, I guess they're walking on thin ice. If it's felt they're not showing enough reverence to the occasion, then they'll get complaints that they're cocking a snook at the monarchy and the state church, so it's probably simpler to 'twee up' for the occasion and get it over with. Insight and hard reporting has to wait for another occasion.
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
[QUOTE]Exclamation Mark, I agree with you about the tone of the news commentators. Though I suppose on such an occasion - a royal celebration - they're very unlikely to sit there sneering and sniping. It does seem more logical they'll find good things to say.
That's true but does have it have to be so smug and twee? The newsreaders dont adopt the same kind of attitude for other feel good stories in my observation.
You'd have to take that up with the individual newsreaders involved. I presume they are given a line to follow and make up their own script. Personally I hate the commentators' comments over most of these occasions. They rarely add anything to my viewing pleasure! Especially if they speak over the music.
Douglas the Otter, you may not like state religious occasions, which is your choice, of course. I'm guessing the Queen probably doesn't have that choice. Being head of state and of the state religion. However, I believe she does have a sincere and lifelong Christian belief, by which she lives her life. So I think it's very likely that whatever unreligious thoughts were going through the minds of the spectating public, there probably was real worship and thanksgiving (and probably a lot of sad reflection) going on in hers. It's even possible a few others at the service where actually worshipping God, too. Who knows.
It's not everyone's cup of tea that kind of horse and pony show. But the service, I presume, was an official and national religious observance of a significant royal event. Hard to see 'small, quiet and intimate' being on the cards here.
And your example of Pope John Paul II's private (though obviously still public) prayer time means very little. I certainly recall he had one or two rather larger events in his diary, featuring much more in the way of massive public adulation, media frenzy, and church pomp, than anything Her Maj could imagine facing in a day's work. Now if he had had his enthronement as a 'small, quiet and intimate' affair, or any of his main public appearances, you might've had a real point to make!
But I wouldn't expect a Pope to be enthroned or make major public appearances in a 'small, quiet and intimate' way, any more than I would expect a monarch to officially celebrate and offer thanks for sixty years reign in that fashion.
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Irish dogs needing homes! http://www.dogactionwelfaregroup.ie/ Greyhounds and Lurchers are shipped over to England for rehoming too!
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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Eirenist
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# 13343
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Posted
Folks, this was a worship service of the Church of England to celebrate and give thanks for 60 years of dedicated and devoted service by the person who has inherited (she didn't ask for it) the role of that Church's Supreme Governor. Why shouldn't that Church lead the worship? Many of us found it moving. Just lay off, will you!
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'I think I think, therefore I think I am'
Posts: 486 | From: Darkest Metroland | Registered: Jan 2008
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Pre-cambrian
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# 2055
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by shamwari:
But the fact remains that Free Church leaders were excommunicated from any role in the leadership of worship.
Typical of the "effortless superiority of the Anglican communion" that they were excluded.
And this " effortless superiority" is what annoys and frustrates those of us who desire Union at a time when society is against all "religion".
The Free Churches are also pretty good at effortless superiority, usually along the lines that their structure/words etc are truly democratic/prophetic etc because unlike the benighted CofE they are free to do their own thing free of the shackles of The State. Until they feel they weren't given a sufficiently Big Part in a Big State Do, when they chuck their principles out of their prams along with their toys.
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"We cannot leave the appointment of Bishops to the Holy Ghost, because no one is confident that the Holy Ghost would understand what makes a good Church of England bishop."
Posts: 2314 | From: Croydon | Registered: Dec 2001
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Barnabas62
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# 9110
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pre-cambrian:
The Free Churches are also pretty good at effortless superiority, usually along the lines that their structure/words etc are truly democratic/prophetic etc because unlike the benighted CofE they are free to do their own thing free of the shackles of The State. Until they feel they weren't given a sufficiently Big Part in a Big State Do, when they chuck their principles out of their prams along with their toys.
Funny you should say that. Pretty much what I was thinking, particularly the italicised bit. Status-consciousness doesn't really fit the nonco ancestral mold. Not does the desire for that kind of recognition.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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shamwari
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# 15556
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Posted
On what basis were the Lutherans included?
Posts: 1914 | From: from the abyss of misunderstanding | Registered: Mar 2010
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