Ship of Fools: Baptist announced as Anglican Dean

Thread: Baptist announced as Anglican Dean Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

To visit this thread, use this URL:
http://forum.ship-of-fools.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=70;t=025502

Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :

This story from New Zealand broke this morning. It is fascinating at a number of levels, including:

1) the paper announcing that something is about to be announced,
2) the issues of crime, forgiveness and grace,
3) the issue of denomination swapping,
4) the appointment of a Dean specifically, rather than, say, a vicar, in such circumstances (while licensed since 2006, he has minimal Anglican parish experience).

While for some reason the gentleman has kept an Anglican licence during his years as a Baptist pastor this seems counter to the normal expectation that anyone holding office in the Anglican church must "habitually attend" Anglican liturgy and sacraments.

The paper breaking the story had been a little cataclysmic in its impact particularly on the gentleman's Baptist congregation, who knew nothing of the goings-on - nor did the Cathedral, but they at least are on the winning end if he is as good a prospect as the appointment moguls clearly believe.

What do youse'll think?

Posted by Olaf (# 11804) on :

I think the bishop should stay away from used car lots. This man must have an incredible sales pitch for himself.

Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :

A very brave appointment indeed, as was the election of the Bishop himself. But not unknown in NZ generally - think of Helen Clark.

Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :

I think this is a more gracious response especially the nominator's statement

quote:
“And if we cannot see and hear and understand the power of redemption in a story like his, then in my view, we should shut up shop.”

Posted by Olaf (# 11804) on :

So they deserve accolades for moving beyond his past. I can only hope to be so gracious in the occasional hiring circumstances in which I find myself. This is certainly the aspect which will draw media attention, and make all opposed to his appointment look judgmental. Kudos to them.

That said, the issue for me is the minimal Anglican experience. Is there nobody with more experience in all the Diocese of Wellington nor the entire Province who might rise to the challenge? That's a pretty serious issue if it is the case. As you asked in the OP, why Dean? Why not Vicar?

Posted by the giant cheeseburger (# 10942) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Zappa:
This story from New Zealand broke this morning. It is fascinating at a number of levels, including:

1) the paper announcing that something is about to be announced,

That's not really that interesting, the one story you've linked to clearly looks like it was a well-organised story fed to the paper by the church to drum up a little interest in the formal announcement on Sunday, or provide some pre-emptive answers about things that can be Googled.

There seem to have been other stories in the media as well as this one, right? Some of those might have been spread by leakers who weren't happy about missing the position or over-egging the importance of denominational allegiance. If this was where the media work started, they might have made the editorial decision to run the story in the hope it turned into some kind of scandal that could sell more papers.

quote:
2) the issues of crime, forgiveness and grace,

I'm not seeing any suggestion that any of this was hidden in the selection process, so the people involved must have been satisfied that he has been rehabilitated.

It could also be remotely possible that they found he hadn't been rehabilitated, but that they discerned that Matthew 5:39-41 is a scripture to be obeyed rather than excused or that his skills might be in line with Luke 16:1-9 and potentially useful for shoring up the church's financial situation [Razz]

quote:
3) the issue of denomination swapping,

Technically he would be joining a denomination from a congregation, not another denomination.

I personally don't see a problem with bringing people directly into leadership roles from other denominations, and I would be disappointed if the best candidate for a certain position was rejected just because they were currently serving in another church. So long as there are no objectionable theological positions that get in the way of them doing their position well, I say bring it on!.

In the Uniting Church here in SA we have a very proud tradition of bringing in skilled leaders who can fertilise our church with the good things happening elsewhere and prevent stagnation, as well as developing leaders from within. Just for one example, the state youth and young adults coordinator is a man who grew up outside of the church and then came to us from the Lutherans - if this position was reserved for internal candidates only we would probably be losing out on the wonderful refreshing of the role he has brought.

quote:
4) the appointment of a Dean specifically, rather than, say, a vicar, in such circumstances (while licensed since 2006, he has minimal Anglican parish experience).

That might suggest he's been brought in to shake things up and get entrenched leaders questioning their practices instead of just keeping the same old routines. Presumably he has a good capacity for listening well and then enacting change well rather than charging ahead.

quote:
While for some reason the gentleman has kept an Anglican licence during his years as a Baptist pastor this seems counter to the normal expectation that anyone holding office in the Anglican church must "habitually attend" Anglican liturgy and sacraments.

The paper breaking the story had been a little cataclysmic in its impact particularly on the gentleman's Baptist congregation, who knew nothing of the goings-on - nor did the Cathedral, but they at least are on the winning end if he is as good a prospect as the appointment moguls clearly believe.

What do youse'll think?

I don't know any of the specific rules and regulations internal to the vowel-progressing Anglicans across the ditch or any of the other details about this story, so I can't make any comment there.

One question on this though - does having a license necessarily imply that one holds an office? It certainly doesn't in this part of the UCA where there are ordained ministers who work in an office in the city instead of in a full-time congregation ministry role.

Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :

(Thanks for the above, TGC)

quote:
Originally posted by the giant cheeseburger:
One question on this though - does having a license necessarily imply that one holds an office?

No, many licenses are of the "Permission to Officiate" genre at the diocesan bishop's pleasure - I held one like that when I worked for the ABC.

[ 26. June 2013, 22:52: Message edited by: Zappa ]

Posted by the giant cheeseburger (# 10942) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Zappa:
(Thanks for the above, TGC)

quote:
Originally posted by the giant cheeseburger:
One question on this though - does having a license necessarily imply that one holds an office?
No, many licenses are of the "Permission to Officiate" genre at the diocesan bishop's pleasure - I held one like that when I worked for the ABC.

Cheers for that.

ABC = Arch-Bishop of Canterbury right?

Just curiously, have you come across Dr Steve Taylor? He's another Baptist from the land of the long white feather who has hopped over to another denomination (and to the mainland) to work as a lecturer and now also the principal of Uniting College (formerly Parkin-Wesley College) here in Adelaide. His work has been instrumental in revitalising the college and re-orienting the ministry training side of things towards the 21st century.

[ 26. June 2013, 23:06: Message edited by: the giant cheeseburger ]

Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :

ABC ... yeah, that's the one!

No, don't know him. I'm fairly out of touch these days

Posted by LQ (# 11596) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Zappa:
4) the appointment of a Dean specifically, rather than, say, a vicar, in such circumstances

Presumably because that's what the job is, if he is being appointed to a cathedral.

What's not clear to me from the article: is he an Anglican priest who strayed for a season and is now returning to his church of origin, or is he about to be ordained?

Posted by Galilit (# 16470) on :

From the link: "Victoria University religious studies senior lecturer Geoff Troughton said Wilkinson must have undergone a certain amount of rehabilitation during his time at the Central Baptist Church."

Close the courts!
Close the prisons!
Send them all to the Baptists!

Posted by Galloping Granny (# 13814) on :

My first thought, being unfamiliar with the Anglican system, was "+Justin being unconventional" until I realised there was a board making the appointment, maybe some of the same people who had boldly selected the bishop.

As for waka-jumping, a small uniting congregation near here have had outstanding ministers, the current incumbent from the Baptist church and the previous man from the Salvation Army (with two elders licensed to preside at Communion), either of whom I'd be happy to sit under.

May we do as well in finding a new minister for our Presbyterian congregation.

(Aside: I wonder what leads good clergy to move from the Baptist church?)

GG

Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :

quote:
Originally posted by LQ:
is he an Anglican priest who strayed for a season and is now returning to his church of origin, or is he about to be ordained?

He was ordained in 2006 but has been working outside the Anglican church since 2007.

Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Galloping Granny:

As for waka-jumping, a small uniting congregation near here have had outstanding ministers, the current incumbent from the Baptist church and the previous man from the Salvation Army (with two elders licensed to preside at Communion), either of whom I'd be happy to sit under.

I think what puzzles me here is that the Anglican Church does have some fundamental theological and ecclesiological differences to the Baptist Church - baptism being, of course, one of them, and the "locus of authority" another. I have to wonder in which church his fingers are crossed, especially when he comes to

quote:
27. Of Baptism. Baptism is not only a sign of profession, and mark of difference, whereby Christian men are discerned from others that be not christened, but it is also a sign of Regeneration or New-Birth, whereby, as by an instrument, they that receive Baptism rightly are grafted into the Church; the promises of the forgiveness of sin, and of our adoption to be the sons of God by the Holy Ghost, are visibly signed and sealed, Faith is confirmed, and Grace increased by virtue of prayer unto God. The Baptism of young Children is in any wise to be retained in the Church, as most agreeable with the institution of Christ

However compared to OZ Anglicanism the NZ church has long been fairly slack about such things so maybe it doesn't matter there.

This slackness surely trips over itself when it comes to the canons pertaining to office bearers in the church, who must habitually attend Anglican worship to be enrolled and regarded as practising Anglicans?

Posted by Arethosemyfeet (# 17047) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Galloping Granny:

(Aside: I wonder what leads good clergy to move from the Baptist church?)

GG

Would it be considered hellish to suggest "congregationalism"? [Two face]

Posted by the giant cheeseburger (# 10942) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Zappa:
I think what puzzles me here is that the Anglican Church does have some fundamental theological and ecclesiological differences to the Baptist Church - baptism being, of course, one of them, and the "locus of authority" another. I have to wonder in which church his fingers are crossed, especially when he comes to
quote:
27. Of Baptism. ...

I don't think there needs to be any crossing of fingers either way when it comes to infant baptism, just an agreement from a person that affirming the practice (and leadership/oversight structure) of the church in which they are called to serve is a higher priority than their personal opinion.

For what it's worth, most Baptist Churches (there is no "the" Baptist Church) happily receive a person who has been baptised as an infant and recognise them as a full member, it's just not something they do themselves.

Surely you don't think every minister in every denomination actually agrees with every single policy that they called to practice?

In the matter of the whole regular attendance - I'm sure that, at the time of his formal induction, he will be a regular attendee and participant.

[ 27. June 2013, 06:47: Message edited by: the giant cheeseburger ]

Posted by Mark Betts (# 17074) on :

It's a bit like someone being loyal to their local Ford dealer and driving around in Ford cars for years, then one day this same person decides to buy a Vauxhall.

Shock! Horror! But so it is in the world of protestantism.

ETA: Or someone who habitually buys their burgers from McDonald's one day deciding to try Burger King.

[ 27. June 2013, 09:06: Message edited by: Mark Betts ]

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :

No, it's not like any of those things, Mark.

I grant you that it wouldn't be the same as, say, someone who habitually worships in a Russian Orthodox parish who decides to swap to a Greek, Romanian or Antiochian one - but it's not like a McDonalds/Burger King either.

I'm not big fan of Protestant denominationalism and all the rest of it but I think it's demeaning - in this instance - to compare it to particular tastes in fast food outlets.

[Roll Eyes]

Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :

quote:
Originally posted by the giant cheeseburger:
For what it's worth, most Baptist Churches (there is no "the" Baptist Church) happily receive a person who has been baptised as an infant and recognise them as a full member, it's just not something they do themselves.

Surely you don't think every minister in every denomination actually agrees with every single policy that they called to practice?

The obvious response to that is, what's the point of being a Baptist if you disagree with the one thing that makes the Baptists distinctive?

I don't know anything about this man or this situation, but it seems a bit odd to me that, according to Zappa, he was ordained in the Anglican Church one year, and then began working outside that church a year later. Is turnover often as rapid as that?

Perhaps we've simply reached a post-theological age. If so, then we need to be honest and explain what the rationale is for keeping so many different denominations going. Is it simply a matter of looking around for the best employment package (for the clergy) or for the best music/youth work/social scene/etc. (for the laity)?

Posted by Laurelin (# 17211) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
Shock! Horror! But so it is in the world of protestantism.

What does it matter? What's more important - the fact that the Lord Jesus Christ unites us all in Him, or our man-made denominational barriers? Nobody outside the Church cares two hoots about our denominational differences.

I'm an evangelical Anglican - or, as I prefer to see it, an evangelical who is very happy to serve and worship within an Anglican structure - and I would be thrilled if this kind of thing became more common in the Church of England. And it may well be our future, given the abyss the Western church is peering into. As our numbers shrink, many of us may actually have to work more closely with Christians from a different background. In the UK there are already Local Ecumenical Partnerships in which Anglicans, Baptists, Methodists and URC folk share worship space and work together. I think this is a thoroughly Good Thing. In one of my former churches, a former Baptist pastor was on the preaching team and he was one of the best preachers we had.

From the article:

"In many senses it's the church's message of transforming grace lived out in his life. So I think in some sense it makes him an ideal candidate to make him a church leader, in the fact that he has experienced transforming grace from a place of deep despair to actually finding a way forward again and putting his life back together."

Indeed. Jesus is still calling former tax collectors, criminals and thieves to repent and turn their lives around. [Cool]

Posted by Higgs Bosun (# 16582) on :

About 20 years ago the BBC produced some programmes under the title "Words into Action", fronted by Simon Mayo and intended for young people. I used them with a group and the greatest reaction was to the story of a Church of Scotland minister who was a convicted murderer. (I think he became a minister after serving his sentence).

Posted by Augustine the Aleut (# 1472) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
It's a bit like someone being loyal to their local Ford dealer and driving around in Ford cars for years, then one day this same person decides to buy a Vauxhall.

Shock! Horror! But so it is in the world of protestantism.

ETA: Or someone who habitually buys their burgers from McDonald's one day deciding to try Burger King.

I think that the comparison is more like a cycling activist who becomes a SUV sales representative (and gets caught fingering a Bronco belonging to his firm) and then switches back to a 10-speed bike. All I can see in the article is some puffery about new beginnings while studiously ignoring how and if he was rehabilitated of his crimes and how the Baptists dealt with the inevitable destruction of trust within the congregation. It may be that the Bishop of Wellington and his colleagues engaged in some serious discernment here, but it seems like random decision-making allied with focus on talking points.

It may be that the press reports do not fill us in on the real story, and that the congregations are fully involved in the process. It just doesn't look like it.

Posted by Pommie Mick (# 12794) on :

If he believes in God that's probably a good start for a New Zealand Anglican priest.

Posted by Mark Betts (# 17074) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Laurelin:
I'm an evangelical Anglican - or, as I prefer to see it, an evangelical who is very happy to serve and worship within an Anglican structure - and I would be thrilled if this kind of thing became more common in the Church of England. And it may well be our future, given the abyss the Western church is peering into. As our numbers shrink, many of us may actually have to work more closely with Christians from a different background. In the UK there are already Local Ecumenical Partnerships in which Anglicans, Baptists, Methodists and URC folk share worship space and work together. I think this is a thoroughly Good Thing. In one of my former churches, a former Baptist pastor was on the preaching team and he was one of the best preachers we had.

This Saturday, I'm going to Iken in Suffolk, to St Botolph's - a Church of England parish, for a Moleben to St Botolph with my friends from ROCOR - another Russian Orthodox jurisdiction (not too dissimilar to a "denomination".) On Sunday, I'll be going to St Mary Magdaline's, another Church of England parish in Newark, where the ROC occasionally conduct their liturgy by kind permission.

We too are signed up to "Churches Together" where we can at least all agree on a minimal set of christian beliefs and thus share buildings. Recently we had a conference in the Wycliffe center, High Wycombe - well known to protestants of all shades, and probably Catholics too.

We don't do much in the way of shared worship, but it wouldn't be true to say we do not work with Christians from other traditions at all - which is, as you say, a good thing and long may it go on.

Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Pommie Mick:
If he believes in God that's probably a good start for a New Zealand Anglican priest.

Posted by Laurelin (# 17211) on :

Mark Betts - that is good to know! [Smile]

I'm not into various Christians having to dumb down their distinctives, by the way. But if we cannot manage a perfect, homogeneous unity before our Lord returns - and maybe that wouldn't be that good an idea anyway - by heck we should be obeying Him by loving and respecting each other.

Posted by Mark Betts (# 17074) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Laurelin:
Mark Betts - that is good to know!

I'm not into various Christians having to dumb down their distinctives, by the way. But if we cannot manage a perfect, homogeneous unity before our Lord returns - and maybe that wouldn't be that good an idea anyway - by heck we should be obeying Him by loving and respecting each other.

I walked past a McDonald's and a Burger King today - I'm staying loyal to Subway. [Big Grin]

Posted by Laurelin (# 17211) on :

But Subway is a little bit evil. [Eek!]

For healthier sandwiches, go to Boots or Waitrose. [Big Grin]

(No analogy to anything else intended here, btw. [Yipee]

)

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Higgs Bosun:
About 20 years ago the BBC produced some programmes under the title "Words into Action", fronted by Simon Mayo and intended for young people. I used them with a group and the greatest reaction was to the story of a Church of Scotland minister who was a convicted murderer. (I think he became a minister after serving his sentence).

I used to use that programme and got the same response from teenagers in my classes.

Re- Anglican attendance, i know a baptist minister who goes to an 8am Anglican communion service every fortnight - on the Sundays when his own church doesn't have the Lord's Supper.

[ 27. June 2013, 15:21: Message edited by: leo ]

UBB.classic^TM 6.5.0