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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Faith
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Taliesin
Shipmate
# 14017
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Posted
A (long) while back I started a loss of faith thread.
This one is sort of faith support.
I've had a few miserable weeks (months?) in which I 'realised' God and Christianity was clearly made up, and something out of which I should be growing.
Eventually I posted some of my 'clearly none of it is true' thoughts in purg, and, thankfully, Martin, Eutychus, Flubb and others came and shared some thoughts that sent me back to church this morning, whereupon the minister preached an entire service aimed at me, so it felt.
Obviously I hadn't been able to voice similar thoughts at house group and quietly phased myself out - and I wish I'd thought to come here earlier.
I've been having a hard time and God has been doing his 'absence is cool' trick.
I need to stay slightly grounded, so I'm offering this thread for mutal questions and support.
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Posts: 2138 | From: South, UK | Registered: Aug 2008
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Uncle Pete
Loyaute me lie
# 10422
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Posted
When I am having trouble believing (Yes, sometimes even Catholics have those periods, believe me), I always pray Lord I love you, help my unbelief
I never take sermons personally in this period.
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Even more so than I was before
Posts: 20466 | From: No longer where I was | Registered: Sep 2005
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Taliesin
Shipmate
# 14017
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Posted
Thanks, and, it was really amazingly good, to go to church this morning and experience what felt like a personally designed message. I'm wishing I'd come for support earlier, hence the thread.
Posts: 2138 | From: South, UK | Registered: Aug 2008
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Welease Woderwick
Sister Incubus Nightmare
# 10424
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Posted
Back in 2002 when Himself and I were in UK he came with me to Quaker Meeting then I went with him to Catholic Mass [just doable within the both time frame and the speed limit] and the homily was brilliant about the importance of doubt within an individual's faith - what was Fr Wotsit doing preaching directly to a Quaker?
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I give thanks for unknown blessings already on their way.
Fancy a break in South India?
Accessible Homestay Guesthouse in Central Kerala, contact me for details
What part of Matt. 7:1 don't you understand?
Posts: 48139 | From: 1st on the right, straight on 'til morning | Registered: Sep 2005
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ArachnidinElmet
Shipmate
# 17346
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Posted
I've come across the tradition of doubt being an important part of faith in the RCC, usually with respect to Mother Theresa. I remember a tv interview where she spoke about her long periods of doubt or emptiness. Apparently, it's official name is spiritual dryness (it's worth clicking through the link to the discussion of Mother Theresa for a better description of her struggle).
Of course knowing this may not be helpful when you are going through it?
I'll be following this thread with interest, as one of my friends is currently going through this. It would be useful to know how to help, without comeing off as patronising or glib.
[ 06. May 2013, 19:43: Message edited by: ArachnidinElmet ]
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'If a pleasant, straight-forward life is not possible then one must try to wriggle through by subtle manoeuvres' - Kafka
Posts: 1887 | From: the rhubarb triangle | Registered: Sep 2012
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
I seem to have one foot permanently planted there. At the moment I'm not doing anything religious - no energy or enthusiasm, it's just words, doesn't mean a thing, not bothering to pray. I've been in this state so many times that at present I'm just going with it, because I know that one of these days the tide will turn, something will trigger it off. There are ebbs and flows in the spiritual life as in any relationship. Some people do get through on an even keel and sustain faith at much the same level throughout life, but I think that's rare.
Accidie is a concept worth looking up too. It's akin to depression, but is actually spiritual sloth. It isn't depression, it just looks like it.
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
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The Kat in the Hat
Shipmate
# 2557
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Posted
Our evening service last night had the final verses from Matthew (28: 16-20) as the text. Our Minister focused on verse 17: "When they saw him, they worshipped him, even though some of them doubted"
Doubt is OK (IMO)
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Less is more ...
Posts: 485 | Registered: Mar 2002
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Sometimes I believe things because I can see they are true. Other times because things are good ideas and beautiful. Belief necessarily is about things that don't coincide with observed or confirmed fact. Thus:
quote:
Brideshead Revisited (Evelyn Waugh)
(Charles Ryder) But you can't believe things because they're a lovely idea.
(Sebastian Flyte) But I do. That's how I believe.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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blackbeard
Ship's Pirate
# 10848
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Posted
There seems to be a common confusion between "faith" and "intellectual certainty". But if we look at, for instance, Hebrews ch 11 (yes all of it, not just v 1), or the epistle of James, we find that it is, rather, a source of strength to do God's work. Bear in mind, too, that some of those mentioned in Hebrews as men of faith were deeply flawed men who made terrible mistakes; but were still men of faith.
And ... oh yes. Doubt. Treasure this. It makes you ask questions. If you ask questions, you get answers. The answers might not be complete but they help. If no doubt, then no answers, and you get nowhere.
Posts: 823 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Dec 2005
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Taliesin
Shipmate
# 14017
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Posted
Doubt I could handle. handle It keeps us humble, anyway. What I struggled with was the sudden CERTAINTY that it was all quite cynically made up, after the fact, by Paul and others on a power trip.
I'd read a book called the search for the human soul .. reincarnation of albino luciani which was supposed to e plain the thinking of pope John Paul 1. I'm writing this on a kindle and it won't let me edit. Excuse slightly odd words. ![[Help]](graemlins/help.gif)
Posts: 2138 | From: South, UK | Registered: Aug 2008
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
I've been through a lot of faith phases. I don't have any great wisdom to offer.
But your comment about "sudden certainty" reminded me of a section in "Screwtape Letters", by CS Lewis. Two devils are writing back and forth. One of them mentions "the law of undulation", which basically means that faith has a lot of ups and downs. But when people hit the down points, they may think they've lost their faith.
FWIW, YMMV.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
Julian of Norwich said that it's necessary for everybody sometimes to be strengthened and sometimes to falter and be left alone. (Short text 9)
The deceiver tried to draw Jesus away in the wilderness, and then departed 'until an opportune time'. We are at the greatest risk of being deceived when we have a desert experience. At such times we need to remember the scriptures and any previous experiences (it's good to keep a journal and refer to it at such times), and to immerse ourselves into the fellowship and structure of the Church.
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
Talesin
There is almost nothing on earth that can not be made to look a complete fraud. The argument about how we know what we know, implies always a level of trust.
I have seen this done by a philosopher on science. He was doing it not to disprove science (afaict he was an atheist) but so that we, first year philosophy students, might gain some understanding of the nature of our own knowledge and what was meant by fact.
For people most of what we know is a combination of inductive reasoning and trusting authorities. If for some reason the trusted authorities are shown to be flawed that can lead to our knowledge seeming to fall like a pack of cards.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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Taliesin
Shipmate
# 14017
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Posted
thank you.
I so love the screwtape letters...
but I didn't see it as a low point, I saw it as a realisation.
Anyway, I'm back in a happy place, church this morning was an absolute oasis before going to deal with a difficult family situation this afternoon, and I was so grateful to be 'plugged back in' or something.
So this thread is more about encouraging others to share their doubt and bleak moments rather than for others to comfort me.
I can't tell you how helpful it was to hear Marvin remind me about mystery... and complexity and simplicity. though I know it wouldn't have helped everyone.
eta: I thought what he was quoting to start with was the guy who said 'I don't give a fig for the simplicity on this side of complexity, but I would give the world for the simplicity on the other side."
[ 12. May 2013, 20:51: Message edited by: Taliesin ]
Posts: 2138 | From: South, UK | Registered: Aug 2008
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
Not often I post this sort of thing....
but;
[Disclaimer: This is NOT a "God found my keys" story. If that's the conclusion you draw you've missed the point and should read it again ![[Biased]](wink.gif) )
Last Thursday I was on the train and realised that my keys were not in my pocket. This was unfortunate, because that's the only place they should be.
I mentally reran my comings and goings, and figured out that the last time I must have had them was when I unlocked my bike at work - the bike currently on the train with me. So, logically, I had to have lost them between that point and, well, now.
Two possibilities then - either I'd dropped them out of my pocket between work and the railway station, in which case I was well and truly shafted, or I'd left them in the lock, which stays on the stand at work on account of being heavy.
So when I got home I got into the car (which Mrs KLB uses during the day, hence my being on the train) and drove to the work car park in the vain hope that the keys were indeed still in the bike lock. I had very little faith that they would be.
But they were, as luck would have it. And it occurred to me that my finding of the keys depended not on the strength of my belief that they were there, but on their actually being there. As long as I had sufficient faith - or indeed desperation - to look, then I would find them.
Strength of faith does not matter much, as long as it's enough to motivate us to act, even if its more in desperation than real hope.
We apologise for this out of character posting by KLB. Normal cynical and sceptical service will of course be resumed in due course.
[ 13. May 2013, 14:45: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
(I usually say a rhyme to Saint Anthony first, and then go look for my keys. And I'm not even Catholic.)
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Strength of faith does not matter much, as long as it's enough to motivate us to act, even if its more in desperation than real hope.
Jesus said similar, his story (nearly as good as yours) used mustard seeds as the example.
If God is there, a little faith is enough.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Macrina
Shipmate
# 8807
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Posted
Blergh I need this thread.
I am back in Church now. A long time out of it due to some serious self doubt about my sexuality (mind the dead horse) but I came back and then thought I was over it.
I know that my pulling back is to do with me, me and my fear of actually knowing what it's like to not have a thorn in my side, but it does hurt when I am pulled back.
My church basically is loud and full of drums. I am not a loud and full of drums person. They had a full on drum thing the other day, lots of off the cuff praying and everyone raving about meeting God and feeling the power of the spirit. I had never felt so lonely just sat there going 'what?'
I'm going to spend a few weeks with the Quakers I think.
To y'all who are in here with me, let's hang on
Posts: 535 | From: Christchurch, New Zealand | Registered: Nov 2004
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shamwari
Shipmate
# 15556
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Posted
I also lost my keys.
They must have fallen out of my pocket.
I went back (twice) over all the ground where they might have fallen out.
No sign. All adjacent shops said nothing had been handed in. So did the police.
I am not so lucky.
Or was it lack of faith?
[ 13. May 2013, 19:35: Message edited by: shamwari ]
Posts: 1914 | From: from the abyss of misunderstanding | Registered: Mar 2010
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Taliesin
Shipmate
# 14017
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Posted
No, it wasn't. This is precisely the sort of thing I struggle with. If you're trying to be funny, stop it.
KLB gave a brilliant example of traveling on in faith and hope, because to despair or backtrack were alternatives he didn't choose.
There was no suggestion that he was guided to the keys, or that he left them on the kitchen worktop but lo, they appeared at work.
Posts: 2138 | From: South, UK | Registered: Aug 2008
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by shamwari:
I also lost my keys.
They must have fallen out of my pocket.
I went back (twice) over all the ground where they might have fallen out.
No sign. All adjacent shops said nothing had been handed in. So did the police.
I am not so lucky.
Or was it lack of faith?
You have spectacularly missed the point. You didn't find your keys not because of lack of faith, but because they weren't there. The efficacy of faith depends not upon its intensity but upon whether its object is worthy of that faith. Unfortunately, this is something we do not know in advance.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Cara
Shipmate
# 16966
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Posted
What a great thread, taliesin. I need it too.
If I understand correctly, you are encouraging us to share both our "doubt and bleak moments" and/or any words of mutual support we can offer...at the moment, I have more of the first than the second!
Like Ariel, I'm currently in an ebb phase, not praying much, not going to church (but that's partly because of where I am living now), and etc. reading the Ship like mad, though, and pondering....
Re "faith," I have been helped by Karen Armstrong (brilliant writer, brilliant speaker) when she says "faith," "pistis," used to mean something like "allegiance" rather than acceptance of a certain set of propositions and dogmas....
So when Christ says to have faith in him, it means to follow him, give allegiance to him, rather than to assent to a particular set of beliefs about him...
Also I too have been helped by reading of the dark nights of the soul passed through by even the Christians we think of as most faithful and saintly.
Interestingly, have just read an excellent book about loss of faith by Lauren Winner (author of "Girl Meets God.") This latest one is called "Still" and is very helpful in describing what these doubts and lost places feel like, but also hopeful in showing how she just hung in there and gradually a sense of calm and acceptance of God's absences crept back and lifted her faith-ward again...
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Pondering.
Posts: 898 | Registered: Feb 2012
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Taliesin
Shipmate
# 14017
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Posted
Good luck with the Quakers, Macrina - sounds like a good plan.
Me, I love all the high energy singing and praying, but only if I feel genuinely moved, and I always get suspicious of people who are 'moved' regularly!!
I belong to a church that is half elderly and stuck, half young, questioning and one-foot-out the door. The poor preachers have a hell of a time trying to cater to everyone.
I went to a planning meeting this evening and felt weird - cross, almost. I didn't want to speak til moved, but there's no time, and it's all, organise some activities, and get everyone involved, and to hell with them if they don't play along.
If we wait for the spirit every time, some weeks there would be nothing.
what does that mean? Sometimes I envy the Anglicans with their knowing the whole service by rote...
Posts: 2138 | From: South, UK | Registered: Aug 2008
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
Ahh Taliesin, it's not all gin and charmingly bad coffee in Anglicanland
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Welease Woderwick
Sister Incubus Nightmare
# 10424
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Posted
I'm a Quaker and we wait until the Spirit moves us - and have some blissfully quiet times in between!
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I give thanks for unknown blessings already on their way.
Fancy a break in South India?
Accessible Homestay Guesthouse in Central Kerala, contact me for details
What part of Matt. 7:1 don't you understand?
Posts: 48139 | From: 1st on the right, straight on 'til morning | Registered: Sep 2005
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Cara
Shipmate
# 16966
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Posted
I think that when you know the service "by rote"--or at least, when it has a familiar shape, structure, prayers--as in Anglicanism, Catholicism, Orthodox (I think), and other denominations--it offers a place between the extremes of extempore worship on the one hand, and Quaker silence on the other.
Within the familiar structure, you can have quieter times, meditative times, you can have deep internal prayer while repeating the familiar prayers aloud, you can full-heartedly participate, or, if needing more quiet and inner silence, can find it....
and (if a service w hymns) you can sing, which is wonderful!
There is a beauty to liturgical repetition. Though of course within that structure there are different bidding prayers, a different sermon of course, different scripture readings...so, a balance of variety and familiarity.
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Pondering.
Posts: 898 | Registered: Feb 2012
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Ophelia's Opera Therapist
Shipmate
# 4081
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Posted
Not sure how far I really am back here again, either with regard to the subject matter or the Ship. But Karl's story was excellent, really helpful and something I want to spend some time thinking about.
It kind of fits with thoughts I've had about whether I can't identify the presence of God because I have never actually experienced the absence of God. Light, breath, beauty still exist. God still exists. And him shouting a little louder would probably be scary.
OOT
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Though the bleak sky is burdened I'll pray anyway,
And though irony's drained me I'll now try sincere,
And whoever it was that brought me here
Will have to take me home. Martyn Joseph
Posts: 979 | From: Birmingham, UK | Registered: Feb 2003
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DouglasTheOtter
Ship's aquatic mammal
# 17681
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Posted
I'm interested in this thread and want to thank Taliesin for starting it. And now I hope that I've spelled the name right. Anyway.
When I first had my breakdown, I couldn't find God anywhere. He felt remote from everything and, had anyone asked, I'd have said I was an agnostic. But as the recovery starts to bite, I'm aware that I'm drawn towards faith. Sometimes this feels very powerful and other times it feels as though I've allowed it to drive me somewhere and then it's tootled off and left me. It leaves me in a strange form of periodic limbo, but I'm not at all sure I regret it.
If that makes sense.
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Need writing or copywriting? Visit me at...
www.rjpmedia.net
Posts: 171 | From: Twickenham | Registered: May 2013
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Taliesin
Shipmate
# 14017
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Posted
I get cross at church when they want to talk about our 'prayers being answered.'
If something good happens, it's not because we prayed for it, or because we had faith our God would see us right.
Or, it makes a total mockery of every Christian who has ever prayed in faith for their child, parent, sibling, friend and been denied. Every person who has been hurt or wronged and prayed to God that it not be so, is not somehow less than us - but that's what an assumption in the power of prayer seems to mean.
So there is a point for me to pray for faith, for compassion, for energy, for wisdom, for patience... but not for my mother's health, for my father to stop doing X or for the church roof fund to get an injection of cash.
So Boogie, I don't like the mustard seed story. I like the idea that with faith, we can achieve much more than we could ever imagine, and maybe move mountains, but it wasn't faith that caused KLBs keys to be there - it just caused him to get in a car and go looking. (I know the point's been made, but sorry, it's a good one.)
So my faith in God may lead me to cope with greater adversity than I could otherwise cope with. maybe.
ETA: I answer to Tal, Tali, whatever. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif) hullo!
[ 17. May 2013, 10:36: Message edited by: Taliesin ]
Posts: 2138 | From: South, UK | Registered: Aug 2008
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Erik
Shipmate
# 11406
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Posted
Hi all,
I would like to add my voice to those who feel they need this thread at the moment.
I am in a slightly odd frame of mind at the moment. It's not quite that I am having a crisis of faith. I still believe God is there (wherever 'there' is). But I am left wondering if he is what I thought he was. I used to be very sure of what I thought about God but am now finding that I am not so sure about a lot of it. At the moment I feel I can say that God is there and is a good thing but that is about it.
Following on from what Talisan (sp?) said, I am currently baffled by the idea of prayer. It seems like I have spent too much time praying for things which I think are important (family and friends health, etc) but seeing very little change. Many people seem quick to attribute good things to God when they happen but when thing don't happen either shrug their shoulders and claim it is not God's will or suggest that God is doing something which we haven't noticed.
I am left wondering if/how I should pray. It seems God will do whatever God will do, regardless of my input. But I know that Jesus said that we should pray. I have tried to focus on the relational side of things (that God give me more faith, make me a better husband/father etc) but again I can't help but wonder if God can hear me.
Sorry for the rambling post and getting bogged down in my own thoughts. I think I go somewhat carried away. Please continue.
Erik.
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One day I will think of something worth saying here.
Posts: 96 | From: Leeds, UK | Registered: May 2006
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The Great Gumby
Ship's Brain Surgeon
# 10989
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Posted
Just as a balance to the various comments on here, I feel I should point out that losing your faith really isn't the end of the world, so don't turn it into a big catastrophe in your mind.
It was such a wonderful release to accept that I didn't believe anymore, and that was okay. I was still the same person, liking the same things, doing the same job. The only changes were liberation from a burden I didn't even realise I'd been carrying, and a bit more free time on Sundays.
It's not a bed of roses, but nor is it the terrible life-changing ordeal I thought it would be. Trying to cling onto something you know you don't believe is far worse.
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The first principle is that you must not fool yourself, and you are the easiest person to fool. - Richard Feynman
A letter to my son about death
Posts: 5382 | From: Home for shot clergy spouses | Registered: Feb 2006
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Erik:
Hi all,
I would like to add my voice to those who feel they need this thread at the moment.
I am in a slightly odd frame of mind at the moment. It's not quite that I am having a crisis of faith. I still believe God is there (wherever 'there' is). But I am left wondering if he is what I thought he was. I used to be very sure of what I thought about God but am now finding that I am not so sure about a lot of it. At the moment I feel I can say that God is there and is a good thing but that is about it.
Following on from what Talisan (sp?) said, I am currently baffled by the idea of prayer. It seems like I have spent too much time praying for things which I think are important (family and friends health, etc) but seeing very little change. Many people seem quick to attribute good things to God when they happen but when thing don't happen either shrug their shoulders and claim it is not God's will or suggest that God is doing something which we haven't noticed.
I am left wondering if/how I should pray. It seems God will do whatever God will do, regardless of my input. But I know that Jesus said that we should pray. I have tried to focus on the relational side of things (that God give me more faith, make me a better husband/father etc) but again I can't help but wonder if God can hear me.
Sorry for the rambling post and getting bogged down in my own thoughts. I think I go somewhat carried away. Please continue.
Erik.
Hi Erik
I have had to shed images of God which turned out to be false. The one who should make everything well at my request was one of them, probably so hard to drop due to insecurity.
'All shall be well' is in the future tense, and doesn't equate with what we would like to happen now.
There have been many attempts to answer the question of suffering and evil, suggesting ideas which might be helpful, but none is adequate as we can't possibly fully know God now. We only occasionally glimpse the greatness of God and know that there is so much more.
His goodness, mercy, hope and love are accessible to us, through Christ. For me, this is where prayer begins. 'Be still, and know that I am God'. God draws near to us if we draw near to God. Simply being in God's presence for periods of time is sufficient. It is good to make our desires known to God, to offload our concerns and hand over the burden, and then to live our lives in service to him.
I hope this is helpful.
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Great Gumby:
Just as a balance to the various comments on here, I feel I should point out that losing your faith really isn't the end of the world, so don't turn it into a big catastrophe in your mind.
It was such a wonderful release to accept that I didn't believe anymore, and that was okay. I was still the same person, liking the same things, doing the same job. The only changes were liberation from a burden I didn't even realise I'd been carrying, and a bit more free time on Sundays.
It's not a bed of roses, but nor is it the terrible life-changing ordeal I thought it would be. Trying to cling onto something you know you don't believe is far worse.
Very [pleased to see this post, as I've been thinking while reading from the top, 'I wonder whether to say that being an atheist and also a member of local Humanist group and BHA is the best!' But I decided to wait until the end.
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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The Great Gumby
Ship's Brain Surgeon
# 10989
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Posted
I hope I avoided making any such claim. I wouldn't want to appear to be saying "this is right, that's wrong" or "the best thing is X" in a thread like this. But I think it's helpful to point out that while losing your faith can seem very scary when you're clinging on by your fingernails, the reality really isn't that bad.
The great thing about this is that either way, you have nothing to worry about.
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The first principle is that you must not fool yourself, and you are the easiest person to fool. - Richard Feynman
A letter to my son about death
Posts: 5382 | From: Home for shot clergy spouses | Registered: Feb 2006
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Taliesin
Shipmate
# 14017
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Posted
for goodness sake, people, this is a faith support thread. Why don't you go and start a 'does god exist and do we care?' thread in purg or something? I feel really irritated that you want to bring your total lack of empathy here, when there are so very many other places to have it. Goodbye and thank you for reading and not posting until you have an actual concern about faith. ie, having it. Since we clearly want it, and it's fragile enough.
[ 17. May 2013, 17:51: Message edited by: Taliesin ]
Posts: 2138 | From: South, UK | Registered: Aug 2008
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Taliesin
Shipmate
# 14017
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Posted
It's like this - I can only complain about my mother to people I know love her, ok?
My sisters and I can storm away at her various quirks, because we all know how important she is to us. But to strangers, I'd want to stress her essential goodness.
I didn't tell my husband I was having a faith crisis, because he's have looked smug, glad I've 'come to my senses.' I'd have to be very sure before I admitted a loss of faith to people who don't love God.
I need to tell people who are at least trying to love him too, so we can support each other. If, at the end of all this, I find my faith has melted away like mist, I'll see what there is instead. Just as, if it became a reality that my mother is actually cruel and manipulative (she's not, actually, it's a metaphor) then I would tell people who don't like her either, so I can start to detach.
So I can see why someone - I'm sorry, I can't find it now - said I was brave to share my doubts.
It takes courage to say we're in the dark, maybe, because it suggests we're still open to not having the answers yet.
I won't be speaking online for a while, probably - my mum is coming to stay. I'll be reading when I can though, and thinking of you all.
Posts: 2138 | From: South, UK | Registered: Aug 2008
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Pia
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# 17277
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Posted
Hi Taliesin. I am currently reading this book, and I wondered if you might also enjoy it. Good luck, and ![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif)
Posts: 151 | Registered: Aug 2012
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
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Taliesin, praying for you. What a great cranky comment. It's true, there are people IRL I'd never admit being depressed to, because they'd immediately jump on it as proof that they were Right All Along about me.
For what it's worth, I've been living as a Christian now 35 years, and this all sounds very familiar. I've started thinking about the moods of doubt, moods of faith, moods of total certainty it's wrong, moods of whatever as my internal weather. As they say where I live, if you don't like the weather, just wait five minutes, it'll change. ![[Paranoid]](graemlins/paranoid.gif)
And every time God waits patiently for me to get my head back together before offering me his arm as we stagger on.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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W Hyatt
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# 14250
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Posted
For whatever it's worth, I belong to a church where people are more likely to become worried when they don't experience doubt and struggle with their faith than when they do. The way we see it, God uses our doubts and struggles as a means to making our faith become an integral part of our character (in the long run).
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A new church and a new earth, with Spiritual Insights for Everyday Life.
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Macrina
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# 8807
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Great Gumby:
Just as a balance to the various comments on here, I feel I should point out that losing your faith really isn't the end of the world, so don't turn it into a big catastrophe in your mind.
It was such a wonderful release to accept that I didn't believe anymore, and that was okay. I was still the same person, liking the same things, doing the same job. The only changes were liberation from a burden I didn't even realise I'd been carrying, and a bit more free time on Sundays.
It's not a bed of roses, but nor is it the terrible life-changing ordeal I thought it would be. Trying to cling onto something you know you don't believe is far worse.
Well, for me, living over two hours from my family and all my friends it would be. My church in this new town where I knew no one are my family, my community and my friendship group.
These people matter greatly to me and I would feel very uncomfortable participating in an insincere way simply to maintain my friendships. Christian faith is more than an intellectual assent. It's fellowship and friendship. I don't want to lose either part of that.
Posts: 535 | From: Christchurch, New Zealand | Registered: Nov 2004
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The Great Gumby
Ship's Brain Surgeon
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Taliesin:
for goodness sake, people, this is a faith support thread. Why don't you go and start a 'does god exist and do we care?' thread in purg or something?
Because that wasn't what I was trying to say. At all.
quote:
I feel really irritated that you want to bring your total lack of empathy here, when there are so very many other places to have it.
Well, I feel really irritated at being accused of a lack of empathy for sharing what I thought was a comforting thought from a different angle. I posted precisely because I've been there, done that, got the t-shirt and a lot of scars, and I really wish I'd known years ago what I know now. quote:
Goodbye and thank you for reading and not posting until you have an actual concern about faith. ie, having it. Since we clearly want it, and it's fragile enough.
Goodbye indeed. I'm sorry that my comment appears to have offended you, as it was made with the very best of intentions, and I put a lot of care into it, so as to avoid the very things you've accused me of. Evidently I didn't do enough. For that I apologise, and will now clear off.
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The first principle is that you must not fool yourself, and you are the easiest person to fool. - Richard Feynman
A letter to my son about death
Posts: 5382 | From: Home for shot clergy spouses | Registered: Feb 2006
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mark_in_manchester
not waving, but...
# 15978
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Posted
Taliesin
I want to add my support to you, and those in a similar situation.
I lost my faith for several years. What I found is very different to what went before in many ways - not least I know what it is to a much greater degree, and feel solid and sometimes passionate about defending it rather than somewhat apologetic about it whilst quietly in great anxiety for its health.
I'm now glad what came before, died, and glad it took a good while to do so and that it hurt. It didn't-half (and doesn't-half) make me think, and feel, and pray - and as a lazy b*stard I need that motivation. Happy to share more if you want, by PM if you like - but I strongly suspect the new rock you find will be as different to mine as mine is from its own predecessor.
cheers
Mark
PS - really like that 'keys' analogy KLB. There's a quote which sounds like Chesterton but probably isn't, which goes something like 'if you believe in fairies at the bottom of the garden, throw your whole self into it, model your society on the fairy-pattern, adopt their legal precepts, and see if it will bear the weight of your expectation'.
As you say, we never know if it will work before it doesn't.
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"We are punished by our sins, not for them" - Elbert Hubbard
(so good, I wanted to see it after my posts and not only after those of shipmate JBohn from whom I stole it)
Posts: 1596 | Registered: Oct 2010
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Laurelin
Shipmate
# 17211
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Posted
Doubt can very much be part of the faith journey. Doubt is not always the same thing as bitterness. Doubt can lead us into a stronger, more mature faith. The psalmists are forever asking God why. Which is one reason why I love the Psalms.
I am going through a major mid-life crisis, having suffered three traumatic losses in the last three years (amongst other things). Like most people of faith, sometimes I wonder if the atheists/rationalists are right and this is all nothing but a beautiful fairytale we tell ourselves to ward off the chill of an indifferent universe. But. There are things that keep me anchored. Things I could not let go of easily.
Above all, I don't think I could give up my faith in Christ. I would miss Him too much.
And all the other things that give consolation - the glory of worship, and also the beauty of art, music and literature with a Godward bent.
So hang in there.
P.S. I found this book helpful - it's empathetic and honest and doesn't beat you over the head for not being 'spiritual' enough:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/When-Doesnt-Answer-Your-Prayer/dp/0310243262
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"I fear that to me Siamese cats belong to the fauna of Mordor." J.R.R. Tolkien
Posts: 545 | From: The Shire | Registered: Jul 2012
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Cara
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# 16966
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Posted
Lovely post, Laurelin. Thank you.
And Mark's story is helpful too--that one can lose faith for several years and it can come back stronger than before.
I find the writings of Madeleine L'Engle, Frederick Buechner, and Michael Mayne ("the Enduring Melody") helpful.
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Pondering.
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Paul.
Shipmate
# 37
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Posted
I've spent the last six months or so trying to claw my way back to some kind of faith, having pretty much given up on it over a decade ago. (but never quite completely, I've been on the Ship most of that time)
It's mostly been about praying. I have tried going to church but found it hard. I'm not sure I've got the internal fortitude to "do the rounds" and find the right place. At least right now. I will try again at some point.
Also, I literally don't know what I believe except that I think God exists and is good, and that I need him. So much of what I used to believe I either can't go back to or is just confusing to me now. When I'm on my own just praying I don't need to answer all the questions but I realise that that's not necessarily sustainable. I need others, I need encouragement, I need an outlet so that I don't become weird.
When people ask me if there's one thing I could do differently in life I usually say something about wishing I'd looked after my teeth (hate dentists). Second to that though I really wish I hadn't given up on Faith because it's so much harder to come back than it was to leave.
I do plan to keep on going and hopefully all will be well in the end.
for us all.
Posts: 3689 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2004
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Raptor Eye
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# 16649
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Late Paul:
It's mostly been about praying. I have tried going to church but found it hard. I'm not sure I've got the internal fortitude to "do the rounds" and find the right place. At least right now. I will try again at some point.
Also, I literally don't know what I believe except that I think God exists and is good, and that I need him. So much of what I used to believe I either can't go back to or is just confusing to me now. When I'm on my own just praying I don't need to answer all the questions but I realise that that's not necessarily sustainable. I need others, I need encouragement, I need an outlet so that I don't become weird.
I've come to the conclusion that we will never make sense of it all, and will always be raising more questions than we gain satisfactory answers. That is not to say that we shouldn't try (quite the opposite!) but that faith in God is about love and the 'heart' primarily. It is initiated and sustained in the spirit which reaches the mind through the signals of deep emotional senses.
That the door will open for the fellowship, encouragement, and kind of worship you need.
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
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Taliesin
Shipmate
# 14017
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Posted
I'd like to keep this a bit longer, please.
I'm stumbling forward with as much faith as i can muster, and becoming a worship leader... a case of walking in hope?
Posts: 2138 | From: South, UK | Registered: Aug 2008
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