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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: How can a committee say you're not called?
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
I'm actually coming at this from the standpoint of someone who will be on such a committee, with the mission as I understand it, to say "affirmed" or "not at this time" or "insufficient data". The hour has approached when I shall be serving in this capacity.
Said committee will review, discern, and say that going forward for ordination is recommended or not recommended. We shall stress out candidates by interviewing them by committee and individually. Repeatedly. We shall push to get to the bottom of their "call". With attention to their personalities, character, church life, gifts/charisms, and such like. The collection of people so reviewed will be diverse: young and registering for seminary, older and starting a new path, already educationally prepared and not, and everything in between and among. Not a hiring process, a call process.
I imagine some of the ship's people have had both the postulancy experience and the discernment committee experience. Do tell from all sides. I am rather intimidated by the prospect of what I might be involved in, the significance of it, and the impact on lives of people. -- How in heaven's name can we know the mind of God about someone's vocation? But someone has to decided, and bishops think they need such committee advice, and probably they do.
And yes, we have interview schedules, and checklists of indicators, and references and essays to read -- not so much thinking of the mechanics of this, but the 'knowing' and 'discerning'. We've had training and praying about all the procedures. Apparently the powers that be trust us. Shall we feel it, hear it, see it, feel it, be told it? It must have been much easier when JC simply told people what to do!
Tell me also how not be to harmful and cruel if you will. How to deliver a 'no'. Or how to be mad at bishops and how to tell them so, who consider subjecting people to committee when they aren't quite ready.
Do tell what you will and can on this please.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
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Posted
I served on a Discernment Committee several years ago, and that's just what it was -- a Discernment Committee, not a Selections Committee. We met with the candidate a number of times to help him discern whether he had a calling. We talked things through together. In the end, he discerned that he did not. It was his decision -- with our help -- not ours.
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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005
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vascopyjama
Shipmate
# 1953
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Posted
Hi No Prophet
In Aussie Anglican circles, it is the Bishop who makes the final decision and communicates with the candidate. So you need not worry about exact wording.
In one of my interviews the interviewer said that I would be recommended. The then Bishop did not recommend me. Not easy to process.
What I found most helpful was a person who was actively listening to me. Helping me explore my thinking. And who was able to engage with my questions of them.
I think be yourself and keep praying is the best advice for all in the process.
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Behold the duck. The scent of a wet dog. The familiar ahh of your own bed. Things to ponder.
Posts: 298 | From: The Sea of Turbidity | Registered: Dec 2001
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Avila
Shipmate
# 15541
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Posted
Can I suggested that you are not asking if they have a call - general. But a call to a particular expression of ministry as your church defines or understands it.
Therefore it is entirely appropriate for the church to reflect on that with the person, to determine how well their sense of vocation fits in that box. (No-one will be a perfect fit because our boxes tend to be arbitary at various levels and humans too varied)
In that sense it needs to be careful and detailed, it may open doors to a particular form of authorised ministry, or save them from it and its adminstrative burdens, free to develop ministry in another way.
As for committees - well imagine how you would feel charged with the responsibility alone. Committees aim to bring a variety of views, skills and experience to the question.
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http://aweebleswonderings.blogspot.com/
Posts: 1305 | From: west midlands | Registered: Mar 2010
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
You will damage people, people who would, in other circumstances, provide an important direction to the church.
Of course, you will not know which of the people you reject will be in this category. What is more, it is actually not your fault - it is the fault of the system. However, you are part of that system. It is something that you need to accept and find a way of dealing with.
Sorry to not be more encouraging, but my experience of this process is not good. It is a bad process. But it is the one that is used, and so you need to help make it work as well as you can.
The answer to the question in the title is "they can't". It doesn't mean they won't try.
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
This idea is a very Baptist/Congregational one, i.e. that God will help a group of people, working together, to discern his mind.
No, it is not a perfect process; yes, it can make mistakes. But it's better than just having one guy do it.
Presumably you will have reports of the candidates' performance and progress to read beforehand so you can draw on those assessments too?
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
You will damage people, people who would, in other circumstances, provide an important direction to the church.
Of course, you will not know which of the people you reject will be in this category. What is more, it is actually not your fault - it is the fault of the system. However, you are part of that system. It is something that you need to accept and find a way of dealing with.
Sorry to not be more encouraging, but my experience of this process is not good. It is a bad process. But it is the one that is used, and so you need to help make it work as well as you can.
The answer to the question in the title is "they can't". It doesn't mean they won't try.
What, I wonder, would be a better process? I agreed to serve because the alternative appears to be bishops making independent decisions for ill-considered reasons, involving politics, what priest or parish might have nominated the person, special favours, and not sure what else. My motivation was also further prompted by the few obviously defective and misbehaving clergy we hear about in news stories, which of course now I realize was probably ill-considered because how can we know who will do what in the future? Not wanting to see individuals harmed, but also not wanting to see groups of people harmed (i.e., future parishioners). I am trying to see this as the worst process except for the alternatives. And to limit the sense of ironic despair.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
Ah yes, a better process is a difficult thing. I don't have an answer directly, partly because I don't agree with the concept of a called priesthood. So I think the problem is rather wider.
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
I would say that my experience of such Committees is that they have to balance the individual's subjective sense of "call" with the gifts and abilities which said person appears to have.
They are human and they can get it wrong.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Leaf
Shipmate
# 14169
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Posted
These committees do not get a lot of love. At best they are seen as a tiresome hurdle. At worst they are accused of wilfully obstructing the work of the Holy Spirit, generally by an unsuccessful candidate. (not directed at anyone on this thread!)
Still, a committee like this is given a task on behalf of the Church, because it is the Church - not just an individual - discerning a call. The individual will be serving the Church, not just his/her own desires, and it's best to get that understood at the outset.
Of course a committee can, and is obliged to, say when it discerns a problem with a candidate's calling. It might be a problem that could be remediated, and the committee can provide those recommendations. It might be a problem that makes the candidate so unsuitable that the committee must say, "No." (Such as the candidate who refused to administer communion to people whom he identified as "feminists". Usually it's not so egregious, though.)
I have not served on such a committee, but I have had my recommendation requested. In two cases I can think of, I could not provide it. It sounds terribly pious, but it took a lot of soul-searching on my part. I truly believed that these individuals would be train wrecks if ordained, and that I had a responsibility to the Church not to permit that. (In fact, neither has since been ordained.) Both seemed to me to be driven by their own ego needs to the point of being nearly unaware of those they might be called to serve.
Having a big ego is not itself a disqualifier, IMO - it can be a source of confidence in leadership - but when you only want the title and such respect as still accrues to it, you're gonna have a bad time in ministry and give others a bad time too.
Posts: 2786 | From: the electrical field | Registered: Oct 2008
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Little Miss Methodist
Ship's Diplomat
# 1000
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Posted
My experience fwiw...
I went before one of these committees two years ago as a candidate for Methodist Ministry. The whole process is quite involved and very daunting and it feels like being stripped naked, pointed at and laughed at. I found that there was virtually no support when I received a no, and that having deconstructed you they just left you to try to put yourself back together from the damaged scraps that are left.
However, having said all that, I do believe that God works through those committees and I do believe that the committee I sat in made the right decision, however hard it was at the time. The reasons they gave me for saying no did not stack up to my view of myself, and after careful and honest conversations with others who were straightforwardedly truthful with me, did not concur with others' views of me either. So I do think I somehow got misrepresented / misunderstood at the committee I saw, but I also think that God works in mysterious ways and whilst I may not still agree with the reasons they gave for saying no, it became evident that it was right that I hadn't gone on to training as I was desperately needed where I was. I work full time for a church, and not long after I was turned down several things happened that might have been quite devastating for that congregation had I not been there with the experience and knowledge I have. It became clear to me that God had used the committee to make sure I was in the place he needed me to be in at that time, and i'm really grateful for that.
I think the committees are flawed, and I think there are times when they get things genuinely wrong (as all fallible humans are wont to do) but I also know that had my committee said yes I would have trusted that as the right decision, so when they said no I really felt like I had to trust that as the right decision, even though wiser people than me were telling me it was an outrage and I should appeal.
I've subsequently realised that God has been saying to me "why are you looking to go and lead another church at some point - i've given you a church that needs you to lead right here". I'm not saying it's not still hard, and I am sometimes still incredibly frustrated by God and was pretty angry for quite a long time, but God uses me despite my anger and frustration and the times I want to storm out at the crap i've been left to deal with and I believe that if committees meet with the desire to genuinely listen to Gods prompting in their hearts then God uses them too, through their wrong and correct decisions, and honours them. God works despite us rather than because of us!
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Tell me where you learned the magic,
The spell you used the day you made me fall....
Posts: 1628 | From: Caretaker of the Overlook Hotel | Registered: Apr 2003
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Emily Windsor-Cragg
Shipmate
# 17687
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
I'm actually coming at this from the standpoint of someone who will be on such a committee, with the mission as I understand it, to say "affirmed" or "not at this time" or "insufficient data". The hour has approached when I shall be serving in this capacity.
...
Tell me also how not be to harmful and cruel if you will. How to deliver a 'no'. Or how to be mad at bishops and how to tell them so, who consider subjecting people to committee when they aren't quite ready.
Do tell what you will and can on this please.
In the past I was deemed NOT SUITABLE for the ordination path at the Episcopal Seminary in Alexandria Virginia. This was about 1990.
Subsequently, I have come to understand why this was an appropriate judgment on their part.
1. Christianity, a relationship to God through the metaphor and covenant of Jesus Christ, is not limited to one denomination or another. However, individuals either REFLECT their denomination/sect or they reflect something else. I personally seemed to reflect something else--an orientation toward problem-solving that went beyond the liturgy.
So! Being denied "the path" may just mean, you're in the wrong Church.
It may also mean, there is NO Church at this time which reflects one's teachings IN TIME AND SPACE. One may be "behind the Time," "ahead of their time," or "out of time."
2. Certain behaviors make a committee stand off. In my case, that was divorce, although Gay postulants made it through the process. That's just how it was. That truth has made me aware that current political issues do in fact dominate churches more than they would like to think.
3. One's personality might just be too abrasive. And I don't need --here-- to say one more word about ~that~. You all know how abrasive I can be, when I put on my "high hat."
So, the Committee were correct, and I was indeed not a suitable candidate for ordination back in 1990.
And that's my experience.
Emily
Posts: 326 | From: California | Registered: May 2013
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lily pad
Shipmate
# 11456
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Posted
And so, No Prophet, how did it all turn out?
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Sloppiness is not caring. Fussiness is caring about the wrong things. With thanks to Adeodatus!
Posts: 2468 | From: Truly Canadian | Registered: May 2006
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Emily Windsor-Cragg
Shipmate
# 17687
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Posted
How it turns out in some cases is that some of the best people vote with their feet and walk out.
Jesus didn't put up with opinions of established elites [over his head]. He established a precedent when He walked out of the building.
Happens all the time.
EEWC
Posts: 326 | From: California | Registered: May 2013
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lily pad
Shipmate
# 11456
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Posted
No, that's not what I meant. He was sitting on a committee this past weekend. Now that the weekend is over, I was hoping to hear a general report on how it felt to be there.
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Sloppiness is not caring. Fussiness is caring about the wrong things. With thanks to Adeodatus!
Posts: 2468 | From: Truly Canadian | Registered: May 2006
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Emily Windsor-Cragg
Shipmate
# 17687
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Posted
Dealing with a [conventional, historical] hierarchy is not like dealing with an association of your peers.
They don't care, is the usual outcome.
Em
Posts: 326 | From: California | Registered: May 2013
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Huia
Shipmate
# 3473
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Posted
Well No Prophet obviously does care about the outcome or he wouldn't have started the thread.
I know that in the Anglican church in NZ people who have not had their call recognised can be offered a chance to talk the experience through, whether that is helpful or not to them I don't know.
No Prophet I hope the process was positive.
Huia
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Charity gives food from the table, Justice gives a place at the table.
Posts: 10382 | From: Te Wai Pounamu | Registered: Oct 2002
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
My positiveness or negativeness is possibly beside the point (?) It's not about me so much as them and the larger whole, but with the mindful attention to each soul. Hope you can tolerate my babbling.
I can only do some stream of consciousness I think on this...
Tiring, heavy responsibility, through a glass darkly, trying to prayerfully muddle towards truth, ensuring supports are available for both them and us. Some bishops are more responsible and organized and kindly than others and more discerning than others. Hopefulness and wanting. Evidence from life. What do we as humans know and what can we possibly know? Does God care about church, or rather, does God care for the individual story? So some people need to be ordained in order to have salvation? I agree with everything you say, you just say it wrong, you're not my cup of tea, but I see you can be someone's. Not wanting to say other than 'yes'. Can you not tell us how you fit somewhere? Please?! Oh God, thanks.
Out of the salad of words and thoughts...
Sacramental ministry is important, more than I once again re-realized. There is also preaching and word. But when we really don't know, can't know, there is that, the mystery, which brings us all together, and is good. This we know: the community of believers, the priesthood of all believers, who even in their diversity, are part of the one body. Is it enough to say yes to God?
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
The bottom line is:
Define call.
Alternatively, you can dispense with that incredibly difficult definition and see if the person will be suitable for ministry in your church at the current time.
But seeing as how we're here, go on. Define call.
I dare you. ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
[ 22. May 2013, 11:40: Message edited by: Evensong ]
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a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
So some people need to be ordained in order to have salvation?
This is an odd one I've heard on the ship before.
Is this something the bishops have said? Where did you get it from?
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a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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Sarkycow
La belle Dame sans merci
# 1012
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong: quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
So some people need to be ordained in order to have salvation?
This is an odd one I've heard on the ship before.
Is this something the bishops have said? Where did you get it from?
Immediately prior to the quote you reference, no prophet said:
quote:
Does God care about church, or rather, does God care for the individual story?
Perhaps he means that if God cares for the church, and uses the church to evangelise and bring others to Him, and some branches of the church require its leaders to be ordained, therefore some people need to be ordained to continue their branches of the church and so keep bringing people to God.
A complicated sentence there; hope you can follow it!
And I suspect we're heading into Purg territory here... Do you want to open the Purg thread to discuss all this Evensong, or shall I?
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“Just because your voice reaches halfway around the world doesn't mean you are wiser than when it reached only to the end of the bar.”
Posts: 10787 | Registered: Jul 2001
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lily pad
Shipmate
# 11456
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Posted
Thanks, No Prophet, for your thoughts about this. I'm pretty sure that most of us only think of the candidate/postulant and whether or not they will "make it through". Obviously the role of the examiners is fairly strenuous too and not without its own difficulties. I'm glad you were able to serve the church this way even if it wasn't easy.
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Sloppiness is not caring. Fussiness is caring about the wrong things. With thanks to Adeodatus!
Posts: 2468 | From: Truly Canadian | Registered: May 2006
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
So some people need to be ordained in order to have salvation?
This is an odd one I've heard on the ship before.
Is this something the bishops have said? Where did you get it from?
There's the sense that people sometimes are working earnestly in themselves, and it seems that without certain events or happenings would not make it.
I might say the same thing about being married. I would have never been the person I am without, and might have gone rather wrong if I hadn't had that love. But that love required the commitment of marriage. Without, it's not enough.
We enter into life stories on such committees and can see that without the pathway and what we can see of the road ahead yet to be travelled, that the person, in their brokenness may need ordination or it's a real problem for their future. It's not sufficient, but it might be a significant part. -- and we are all broken, or at least I am rather.
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Oscar the Grouch
Adopted Cascadian
# 1916
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Posted
The decision may be about whether someone is being called to ordained ministry in general, or it may be about whether someone is being called to a specific post/parish. Either way, the consequences of saying "yes" when you should say "no" are large. Some people may feel called to ordained ministry, but it is clear that they aren't really suited. Saying "yes" simply places them in a situation where they will be miserable and it will cost all concerned a lot in purely financial terms.
Equally, appointing someone to a post where they are not suited will cause endless (and possibly lasting) damage to the person, their family and the church. So all who are called to assist in such decision making have a heavy burden of responsibility which they need to exercise faithfully and even bravely. It takes guts to say to someone "I know you want this, but you're really not the person to do it."
I've seen too many situations where the wrong person is in the wrong post and all concerned end up miserable and frustrated. It may seem to be a little lacking in faith, but I think that erring on the side of caution is frequently the best option!
In my experience, the biggest problems occur with the people who are utterly convinced that they are being called and who won't hear anything against such a view. Lacking humility to listen to others, they tend to steamroller their way through to get what they want. Almost always, the end result is a disaster for all concerned.
I knew one guy who was rejected by a selection conference. He was so determined that he was right that he went to theological college any way (getting his church to support himself and his family). He blagged his way through a subsequent selection conference (mostly along the lines of "see - I've already done this. How can you turn me down now?") After ordination, he had a problematic curacy (where he spent most of his time arguing with his training incumbent about why he was right about everything) and then became a team vicar. I met him again then and he was still highly arrogant about his own opinions and worth and deeply dismissive of anyone who disagreed with him.
Three months later he ran off with another woman, leaving behind a distraught wife and small child. Qu'elle surprise!
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Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu
Posts: 3871 | From: Gamma Quadrant, just to the left of Galifrey | Registered: Dec 2001
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:
The decision may be about whether someone is being called to ordained ministry in general, or it may be about whether someone is being called to a specific post/parish. Either way, the consequences of saying "yes" when you should say "no" are large. Some people may feel called to ordained ministry, but it is clear that they aren't really suited. Saying "yes" simply places them in a situation where they will be miserable and it will cost all concerned a lot in purely financial terms.
Equally, appointing someone to a post where they are not suited will cause endless (and possibly lasting) damage to the person, their family and the church. So all who are called to assist in such decision making have a heavy burden of responsibility which they need to exercise faithfully and even bravely. It takes guts to say to someone "I know you want this, but you're really not the person to do it."
This. So this.
It's where I'm at at the moment.
Third year. Theoretically a year off deaconing and I still don't know my ass from my face (tho tbh, something has settled recently).
My only consolation is that the church seems to want me.
But I still have to figure it out deep inside myself. It doesn't do to only go on other ppl's expectations and wants for all the reasons Oscar outlined ....
![[Waterworks]](graemlins/bawling.gif)
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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Pyx_e
Quixotic Tilter
# 57
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Posted
The alternative to a committee is an individual, this way lies madness.
Some are called and won’t hear.
Some are called but won’t live in their gifts.
Some are very gifted and not called.
Some are gifted and called to a particular ministry.
Some don’t want to do the ministry they are called too.
Some are not called but think they are.
Some are not gifted but think they are.
Sometimes the call needs further maturing, sometimes the called person refuses to hear that. Sometimes the committee gets it wrong, we are only human.
We say “no” to people we should say “yes” to.
We say “yes” to people we should say “no” to.
Some people are called when they are young.
Some are called when they are old.
Some we say “yes” to go on and screw it up, sometimes irremediably.
Most on hearing “yes” go on a discipleship holiday, sometimes for 40 yrs.
Some on hearing “no” foster a deep resentment and hence kill any chance of a future “yes.”
All (whether yes, no or not yet) seem to take it as a pass or fail of how much God loves them, which is just bizarre.
Some members of the selection group may not be in a good place an it affects them
On and On .........................
Honestly, if it weren’t for the possibility of the Holy Spirit turning up we’d be screwed. (or more screwed than we often are.) So pray for those who are called to discern, please.
And there are true marks of a ”call.” Many in fact but most of all – sacrificial love. That which bears fruit shall be pruned .......................
Fly Safe Pyx_e
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It is better to be Kind than right.
Posts: 9778 | From: The Dark Tower | Registered: May 2001
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pyx_e:
Honestly, if it weren’t for the possibility of the Holy Spirit turning up we’d be screwed. (or more screwed than we often are.) So pray for those who are called to discern, please.
This should be written up in large letters on any literature sent out by church committees, at parish level right through to those who are involved in the most important leadership decisions in the whole denomination. It was really upsetting how much criticism went on when the ABC was being appointed - they were taking too long, the committee was made up of the 'wrong' people, they took a break when they shouldn't have, etc. etc. Perhaps if the critics prayed for the committee instead of pointing fingers they would have realised that there might be very good reasons for the delays and ponderous deliberations. I notice that it has all gone quiet now that +Justin has been appointed ABp and that everyone (presumably) approves. Until he does something they don't agree with....
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Oscar the Grouch
Adopted Cascadian
# 1916
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
[I notice that it has all gone quiet now that +Justin has been appointed ABp and that everyone (presumably) approves. Until he does something they don't agree with....
[TANGENT]
I think the reason it has all gone quiet about the new ABC is not that everyone approves, but simply that most (if not all) are waiting see what he is actually like. He's pretty much a blank piece of paper at the moment, so it is impossible to say if he is going to be a good or bad ABC until he actually DOES something.
So far, a few comments about the banking industry don't really give us any insight into what kind of leader of the C of E he will be. The key test will be how he handles the knotty issues of: a) women bishops and b) GLBTs and the church. I, for one, am reserving judgement until there is something to base judgement upon.
[/TANGENT]
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Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu
Posts: 3871 | From: Gamma Quadrant, just to the left of Galifrey | Registered: Dec 2001
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Must as I distrust the more emotional (wrong word I think) approaches to it all, the Holy Spirit comments probably should be emphasized, except that they are so easily misunderstood.
There is much talk of spiritual direction, and being outside of the official borders of churchland, expect that this is more structured version of the intentional working through of some combination of personal issues and development of a more actualized Christian self. Thus a facilitation of the journey, perhaps a walking tour of the soul. -- not having grown up with the concept, this has been bits of soul-mentoring and pastoral care for my person.
But I don't think that such journeying can produce something that is not there to begin with. And thenI consider Paul, and think we'd probly have rejected him. God help us!
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
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Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pyx_e:
And there are true marks of a ”call.” Many in fact but most of all – sacrificial love.
Care to share them with us? I'll dare you as I dared no prophet.
I have yet to hear a coherent description.
As for sacrificial love - nah. That's the call of baptism.
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a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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Zappa
Ship's Wake
# 8433
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Posted
I was originally selected for ordination in my home country after a two day residential conference that was the culmination of twelve months of interviews and reports. The bishop of course made the final decision.
I then moved country and went through an almost identical process, a second time. The (arch)bishop made the final decision. Both times I was accepted.
It's 30+ years ago, now. It was grueling, but no more so that job interviews, especially job interviews for "senior" positions. I've been through a few of those. I remain "unsenior" but hold no major grudges, just a minor "where did I go wrong?" which is pretty much exactly what I'd feel after any job interview.
By the same token I was once successful in a job interview for a position in which I was, I think, an abject failure - God knows how I would have felt if I had been turned down. There are no sliding doors, and either experience is painful.
Basically, it's life. Shit happens. So does joy. And somehow the Spirit of God can work in both. I have managed to find the footsteps of God in all the vocational vicissitudes.
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shameless self promotion - because I think it's worth it
and mayhap this too: http://broken-moments.blogspot.co.nz/
Posts: 18917 | From: "Central" is all they call it | Registered: Sep 2004
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
A call
is a journey
from here to somewhere else
where the destination is unknown
but it must be made
we never know more than the next step
and in all the journeying
the only guarantee is
God will journey ahead of us
So to respond is
to go forward
accepting the unknowness
of a life lived
in the way of the Saviour
A call may involve ordination or it may not
It nearly always involves going beyond our comfort zone
and an act of humility that is foreign to our particular pride
The one who accepts it, is a servant, not a master
and the way is not of their choosing.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
Nice one Jengie. I like that.
But still a generic call (of which there are myriad), not the particular one to ordained ministry.
[ 24. May 2013, 11:52: Message edited by: Evensong ]
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a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
The thing is that there is not one sort of call that is to the ordained ministry of word and sacraments. What that call is depends on the call of the denomination in that time and location. The question therefore is about fit between an individuals call and that of the denomination.
In my case for instance the answer was a clear no. What I talked about as my vocation and what the denomination talked about as the vocation of minister of word and sacrament were two different things. Unlike many it was me who turned the denomination down.
I have met people who are called to be ordained in a different denomination to the one they were in. I have met people who have needed to develop in other ways before being ready and even I suspect people who have had to wait for the denomination to catch up! I also I suspect have met people who were called out of the ministry.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zappa:
Basically, it's life. Shit happens. So does joy. And somehow the Spirit of God can work in both.
In the general situation, I am interested in the joy-shit polarity, and the Spirit of God within. The term "holy shit" comes to mind. But I also think "spin", and then the biggest spin ever. Is shit-joy simply Good Friday-Easter Sunday? Th
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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MrsBeaky
Shipmate
# 17663
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Posted
I hope it's OK to jump with a few observations from a selection process I went through with my husband as a few friends have told me that in may ways it mirrored a BAP. We are serving as Mission Partners with CMS and the process we went through was really, really good. A first interview, a second interview, then an invitation to a retreat house to spend a whole weekend in the discernment process prior to which we filled out long forms and in-depth personal references were taken.
That weekend was one of the most intense yet special experiences of my whole life. The love, gentleness yet rigorous examination were quite remarkable. The selectors spent the whole of Saturday evening in prayer and discussion whilst all the candidates went down to the pub! Just before we were called to the final meeting I told mu husband that although I'd be really disappointed if we weren't selected (as I was seriously impressed with the organisation) I would always know that we all gave it our best shot and could accept the decision and wait for a different door to open.
However I'm not sure I'd fare as well if I was one of the selectors, though being in a team might make it easier to deal with people's disappointment...so I hope your experience wasn't too gruelling!
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"It is better to be kind than right."
http://davidandlizacooke.wordpress.com
Posts: 693 | From: UK/ Kenya | Registered: Apr 2013
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MrsBeaky
Shipmate
# 17663
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zappa
Despite some theological differences with CMS, Mrs Beaky, I believe they do their selection processes very well. There is much to learn from your experience.
They do indeed. Our team of selectors was led by the then guest brother from the Community of the Resurrection at Mirfield which we found really wonderful coming from a cathedral. We were relieved to discover there was room for us and our theological idiosyncrasies!
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"It is better to be kind than right."
http://davidandlizacooke.wordpress.com
Posts: 693 | From: UK/ Kenya | Registered: Apr 2013
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Huia
Shipmate
# 3473
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zappa:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
I am interested in the joy-shit polarity, and the Spirit of God within.
I feel a PhD thesis coming on ...
Somewhere amongst my stuff I still have the Easter card I made based on your post on thread some time ago that - "Shit happens, so does resurrection". I friend I sent it to (retired clergy) said it got more comment than any card he had received.
Of course I was careful to whom I sent it. ![[Two face]](graemlins/scot_twoface.gif)
Do the PhD
Huia
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Charity gives food from the table, Justice gives a place at the table.
Posts: 10382 | From: Te Wai Pounamu | Registered: Oct 2002
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Huia
Shipmate
# 3473
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Posted
Sorry Zappa - that was a bit of a tease. Many years ago someone suggested I do one. I was horrified and said, "But I have a life!" ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
It would be a good topic though.
Huia
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Charity gives food from the table, Justice gives a place at the table.
Posts: 10382 | From: Te Wai Pounamu | Registered: Oct 2002
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Huia:
Somewhere amongst my stuff I still have the Easter card I made based on your post on thread some time ago that - "Shit happens, so does resurrection".
Huia
Excellent!
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
You should have been given guidance on how you interview, the sort of questions you should ask and how you come to a decision. If you haven't been given this, start asking. The group of interviewers should also be meeting together to decide what type of person they want, what churchmanship, what gifts they want as desirable, what vision they have for the church etc. It won't always match up, but you can come close in some candidates.
There are certain questions you should avoid asking a candidate, like, 'What is your vision for the church?'. They aren't there yet, how can they possibly know? A better question is 'what is important to you in ministry? What is your past experience? What things have worked well in ministry?' etc.
Just be honest about the parish and it's needs, be honest about what you are looking for, do thorough investigation of backgrounds and past history in other parishes and pray...a lot. Don't rush into a decision, and don't dismiss anyone out of hand. Some will remove themselves from the process if you do it right.
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
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the giant cheeseburger
Shipmate
# 10942
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
You should have been given guidance on how you interview, the sort of questions you should ask and how you come to a decision. If you haven't been given this, start asking. The group of interviewers should also be meeting together to decide what type of person they want, what churchmanship, what gifts they want as desirable, what vision they have for the church etc. It won't always match up, but you can come close in some candidates.
There are certain questions you should avoid asking a candidate, like, 'What is your vision for the church?'. They aren't there yet, how can they possibly know? A better question is 'what is important to you in ministry? What is your past experience? What things have worked well in ministry?' etc.
Just be honest about the parish and it's needs, be honest about what you are looking for, do thorough investigation of backgrounds and past history in other parishes and pray...a lot. Don't rush into a decision, and don't dismiss anyone out of hand. Some will remove themselves from the process if you do it right.
I thought this thread was about interviewing candidates for ordination, not for selecting a new pastor for a congregation.
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If I give a homeopathy advocate a really huge punch in the face, can the injury be cured by giving them another really small punch in the face?
Posts: 4834 | From: Adelaide, South Australia. | Registered: Jan 2006
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