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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Rhetorical devices in Hell threads...
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alienfromzog
Ship's Alien
# 5327
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Posted
My apologies to Kelly
![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif) Oops...
Anyways, back on point.
As a general rule, I never question hosts and admins. I occasionally read the Styx threads on such but generally I appreciate and am thankful for what they do. And I don't think it's something I could do and hence keep silent about such things.
Comet made this ruling in Hell and I foolishly questioned it... so now I'm here.
Justinian's post was clearly one that would invoke hostly attention. I fully understand the sensitivity and concern. There have been several child abuse related threads recently which I have participated in. My thoughts and views and feelings drawn from knowing far more about child abuse than I would want to, I think have been shown over the last few weeks.
Justinian was clearly making a rhetorical point. I don't think the post could be read any other way. So whilst I understand the concern and sensitivity, I was slightly uncomfortable with Comet's interpretation. I should have started a Styx thread, but I didn't quite think it was a thread, I just wanted to ask the question.
So here we are... I still think Justinian's point could not have been made any other way. Which is not the same thing as saying Justinian was right. Conversely I appreciate Comet's position and wanted to ask about it rather than challenge it per se
![[Help]](graemlins/help.gif)
AFZ
P.S. Hosts have mercy on me please...
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Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.
[Sen. D.P.Moynihan]
An Alien's View of Earth - my blog (or vanity exercise...)
Posts: 2150 | From: Zog, obviously! Straight past Alpha Centauri, 2nd planet on the left... | Registered: Dec 2003
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
It is not foolish for you to question a hostly ruling. It is against policy to do so anywhere but the Styx.
But you know that, so I'm not sure why I am having to reiterated it.
Thank you for moving this conversation where it is supposed be.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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comet
Snowball in Hell
# 10353
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Posted
Chill, I'm not upset. I get your point. I got Justinian's, too. But it was wrongly done. Listen, it takes a lot to cross the squicky line in Hell, but accusing someone of pedophilia- rhetorically or not- will do it. I don't really care if he was making the most valient of points; we don't play that game. It's wrong, it's unfair, and it's nasty. Justinian (and everyone else) will just have to find another way of making their point. There's personal and then there's nasty.
That thread was bringing out the worst in everyone for the last two pages. Hell has been chockfull of pedo talk and everyone is getting demented and ugly. I think everyone needs to take a walk and calm down.
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Evil Dragon Lady, Breaker of Men's Constitutions
"It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning.” -Calvin
Posts: 17024 | From: halfway between Seduction and Peril | Registered: Sep 2005
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
Comet was not the only one to make a ruling on this subject. I did as well.
I would have thought one indication that this form of insinuation was completely unacceptable would have been sufficient. But apparently not.
I completely disagree with the notion that there was no other way to make the point than with that rhetorical device. The entire reason for the THREAD is objecting to the use of an unnecessary rhetorical device. In both cases, there is no need to go there.
If people can't immediately think of a way to make their point other than saying something beyond the pale, they should step back, put their creative thinking cap on and come up with another method.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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alienfromzog
Ship's Alien
# 5327
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
If people can't immediately think of a way to make their point other than saying something beyond the pale, they should step back, put their creative thinking cap on and come up with another method.
That bit I agree with. I also noted your ruling before which I thought was very restrained.
The point - I think Justinian was making, although I should not really speak for anyone else - is how deeply offensive and unhelpful such rhetorical devices are. So at the risk of creating an infinite loop... I think the rhetorical device was about rhetorical devices. What, I thought made Justinian's comment different was the clear statement in the post that she didn't mean it and that it was in the sense... "If I said this then you would rightly feel upset about it, but can you not see how your own comments have similar effects"
I appreciate what Comet said about how hard it is to get a ruling in Hell and I'm still not sure my meanderings will justify a thread, but yeah, I wanted to ask.
AFZ
[ 18. November 2012, 21:12: Message edited by: alienfromzog ]
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Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.
[Sen. D.P.Moynihan]
An Alien's View of Earth - my blog (or vanity exercise...)
Posts: 2150 | From: Zog, obviously! Straight past Alpha Centauri, 2nd planet on the left... | Registered: Dec 2003
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by alienfromzog:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
If people can't immediately think of a way to make their point other than saying something beyond the pale, they should step back, put their creative thinking cap on and come up with another method.
That bit I agree with. I also noted your ruling before which I thought was very restrained.
The point - I think Justinian was making, although I should not really speak for anyone else - is how deeply offensive and unhelpful such rhetorical devices are. So at the risk of creating an infinite loop... I think the rhetorical device was about rhetorical devices. What, I thought made Justinian's comment different was the clear statement in the post that she didn't mean it and that it was in the sense... "If I said this then you would rightly feel upset about it, but can you not see how your own comments have similar effects"
AFZ
And it's precisely that risk of an infinite loop that I am trying to prevent.
To me, covering it with "IF I said this" just doesn't cut it. You did say it. You said it with a view to making someone feel bad. You're not automatically excused by the fact that they made you feel bad first.
And personally, I felt that the posts by CK and Justinian weren't merely "like for like", because it was getting more and more specific. We went from comparisons between groups to seeking statements from individuals about the connection between 'their sin' and another, to explicit targeting of a named individual. The steps before are bad enough, but that last step is what led to my warning.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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alienfromzog
Ship's Alien
# 5327
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
It is not foolish for you to question a hostly ruling. It is against policy to do so anywhere but the Styx.
But you know that, so I'm not sure why I am having to reiterated it.
Thank you for moving this conversation where it is supposed be.
Yep. I meant foolishly questioned it in the wrong place... ![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
Don't worry, I won't do it again.
AFZ
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Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.
[Sen. D.P.Moynihan]
An Alien's View of Earth - my blog (or vanity exercise...)
Posts: 2150 | From: Zog, obviously! Straight past Alpha Centauri, 2nd planet on the left... | Registered: Dec 2003
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comet
Snowball in Hell
# 10353
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Posted
quote:
. What, I thought made Justinian's comment different was the clear statement in the post that she didn't mean it and that it was in the sense... "If I said this then you would rightly feel upset about it, but can you not see how your own comments have similar effects"
If Jusitinian had used te lauguage you used there^ I might have let it go. It's got a layer of abstraction that in fact does NOT accuse anyone of pedohilia. It's still toeing the line, but not as ugly as saying, "yeah, you have a "friend" who's a pedo, and we all know what that means." because couched as rhetoric or not, that's an accusation.
The whole point of the thread is that you can't equate homosexuality with pedophilia. The reason this is such a huge issue is becase pedophilia is such a GIANT boogeyman issue in our society. It can't be equated with pretty much anything. We are not, societally speaking, in a healthy place with this issue. Which is why even an accusation couched in a rhetorical device is not okay. People are not objective about it.
If justinian had used shoplifting as te rhetorical device I'd have let it slide. We don't vilify shoplifters without proof. We do that to pedophiles.
(just fyi- i'm using my phone and it's a PAIN IN THE ASS to try and be clear typing with my thumbs. Pity me.)
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Evil Dragon Lady, Breaker of Men's Constitutions
"It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning.” -Calvin
Posts: 17024 | From: halfway between Seduction and Peril | Registered: Sep 2005
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Justinian
Shipmate
# 5357
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by comet:
The whole point of the thread is that you can't equate homosexuality with pedophilia. The reason this is such a huge issue is becase pedophilia is such a GIANT boogeyman issue in our society. It can't be equated with pretty much anything. We are not, societally speaking, in a healthy place with this issue. Which is why even an accusation couched in a rhetorical device is not okay. People are not objective about it.
If justinian had used shoplifting as te rhetorical device I'd have let it slide. We don't vilify shoplifters without proof. We do that to pedophiles.
I used paedophilia as the rhetorical device for one specific reason. As Louise pointed out Enders Shadow has been using paedophilia as a rhetorical device on the boards for ten years and the hosts have been warning him about it for eight. The very subject of the hell thread was Ender's Shadow's use of paedophilia as a rhetorical device.
Nothing that has been tried in the meantime has worked. Hell calls haven't worked. Hostly warnings haven't worked. Both were tried eight years ago. And just telling Ender's Shadow to stop doing it might as well be joing the anti-kitten burning coalition. Even IngoB has given up his defence there.
Were this over a one time thing I'd agree with Orfeo's point that there were probably better ways of saying things. But this is an eight year long pattern during which he hasn't changed - and just about every way that isn't pushing the bounds even of Hell has been tried, almost all of them have been tried on that thread no less.
I've no particular desire to join the anti-kitten burning coalition; I care more that kittens don't get burned - to do this means trying to get through to Ender's Shadow exactly why his insinuations and false equivalences are bad. Anything else is just grandstanding (not that grandstanding can't be fun). Any attempt to do that needs more than usual measures; someone with a ten year history of something and who's been called to hell regularly for all those ten years isn't going to change their behaviour based on things that have been consistently tried for all ten years - and after ten years it's quite obvious that the hosts and admins aren't going to do anything that make a difference.
Which brings me back to the point of the thread. Which is that Enders Shadow can equate paedophilia with homsexuality and unless something changes is going to continue to do so. What's worse, he's going to continue to do so on boards that aren't Hell. I consider this a far, far bigger problem for the ship than alternatives might be - and made a calculated decision to go right to the edge of the liberal boundaries of Hell by writing a post that made me want to take a shower just for writing as this is the only thing that I haven't seen tried and that might possibly do some good other than serious hostly sanction (which isn't under my control).
On the other hand I hadn't spotted Orfeo's warning, sorry.
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My real name consists of just four letters, but in billions of combinations.
Eudaimonaic Laughter - my blog.
Posts: 3926 | From: The Sea Coast of Bohemia | Registered: Dec 2003
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Louise
Shipmate
# 30
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Posted
The comparison was originally banned way back in the mists of time, but was then 'unbanned' by the admins on free speech grounds. l think this was because of a mixture of free speech grounds and because it had been covered by a then broader c 3 wording which was seen as too restrictive.
I see the reasons why that old C 3 wording was abandoned but in my personal view I think it needs to be looked at again in the light of C 1 and what constitutes -isms and being a jerk.
I'm sorry to say that (again my personal opinion as shipmate not as a host) the boards seem to me to have a double standard on some subjects. If someone posted racism as virulent as this sort of homophobia they would barely last ten days, never mind ten years .
I see the distinction being made too. But the problem is that normally when someone posts something slimy against a group, people can post the equivalent to them in Hell. Here we have an accusation so taboo that even posts in Hell saying not 'this is true about you too!' but basically 'how would you like it if we said the same about you?' are, because of the taboo subject, out of bounds.
I think in such circumstances the group accusation needs to be stopped and considered as C1 'jerk' material. These are my personal views and not those of the management.
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Now you need never click a Daily Mail link again! Kittenblock replaces Mail links with calming pics of tea and kittens! http://www.teaandkittens.co.uk/ Click under 'other stuff' to find it.
Posts: 6918 | From: Scotland | Registered: May 2001
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Mullygrub
Up and over
# 9113
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Posted
quote:
Justinian:
I've no particular desire to join the anti-kitten burning coalition; I care more that kittens don't get burned - to do this means trying to get through to Ender's Shadow exactly why his insinuations and false equivalences are bad. Anything else is just grandstanding (not that grandstanding can't be fun). Any attempt to do that needs more than usual measures; someone with a ten year history of something and who's been called to hell regularly for all those ten years isn't going to change their behaviour based on things that have been consistently tried for all ten years - and after ten years it's quite obvious that the hosts and admins aren't going to do anything that make a difference.
Lordy, what's that adage about insanity?... I jest.
Justinian, while I presume your desire for ES to acknowledge the error of his ways and reform the hell out of himself comes from a strong sense of moral justice and grace (I'm being genuine here), I wonder at the sense of it. Has the phrase "lost cause" not already been brandied about in regards to ES?
And if the Hosts or Admins -- long may they reign in prosperity -- are prepared to let him be, then perhaps the rest of the community can hedge him in on general threads when he spreads his filth and robbash. And rather than fan his sulfuric flames, as it were (pee-yoo!), ignore him the rest of the time.
Incidentally, I've only been back on the Ship for a little while after quite a hiatus, and it didn't take me long to get to know ES' voice and see his bollocks for what it is.
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Smurfs are weird. And so am I.
Posts: 634 | From: Melbskies | Registered: Feb 2005
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
Ok, please be mindful that I am the only Admin available to comment at the moment, and I have only been at this a week. Therefore, I am not even going to claim to be speaking for my fellow Admins, but here's my thoughts:
1. The ramifications of hinting that an individual is a pedophile-- that is, guilty of a specific crime-- are pretty clear. Our priority is to keep the Ship squeakily clean from any possible consequences of allowing such a suggestion to stand without comment. As has been stated many times before, we must err on the side of caution in that regard.
2. The issue of whether or not repeated comparisons of the actions of a group of people to a criminal act constitutes a C1 issue is currently under discussion.
Please be mindful of time zone issues and the need for discussion of the matter before action (if any) takes place. You patience is appreciated and please know that we are taking all of your comments seriously.
Kelly Alves
Admin.
[ 19. November 2012, 03:12: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Mullygrub
Up and over
# 9113
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
and I have only been at this a week.
Really? I didn't know this! I guess you must always have had that kind of "Adminesqueness" about you in my head, Kelly ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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Smurfs are weird. And so am I.
Posts: 634 | From: Melbskies | Registered: Feb 2005
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
Wait, it's more like three weeks.
A short time, anyway.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
On review, we have to agree that those of you objecting to the rhetoric of Ender's Shadow have made your case. He has been consistently making the relationship with homosexuality and pedophilia in a way that is provocative and disruptive.
SO, Ender's Shadow, consider yourself formally warned-- that rhetoric needs to stop. Any further comparisons of homosexuality and pedophilia will earn you Commandment 1 consequences.
Kelly Alves
Admin
(will repost on the thread in question.)
[ 19. November 2012, 05:16: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
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Posted
Can I ask what has happened to the thread in question? It seems to have gone missing from Hell and doesn't appear for me in Oblivion, either.
Posts: 7462 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001
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Tubbs
Miss Congeniality
# 440
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
Can I ask what has happened to the thread in question? It seems to have gone missing from Hell and doesn't appear for me in Oblivion, either.
It has been taken down for the reasons touched on by Comet, orfeo and Kelly in their posts. This is one of the few Admin actions that isn't up for further discussion btw.
Tubbs
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"It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it up and remove all doubt" - Dennis Thatcher. My blog. Decide for yourself which I am
Posts: 12701 | From: Someplace strange | Registered: Jun 2001
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The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
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Posted
Dear Tubbs—I wasn't looking for discussion, but notice would have helpful given the numerous orphaned links upthread. As one of the grumpy grousers on this issue, Thank You. I appreciate this decision.—TSA
Posts: 7462 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Excuse me for being ignorant - what does 'he is now gone' mean? Does that mean a permanent ban?
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
Yes, it means a ban rather than a suspension.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Siegfried
Ship's ferret
# 29
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Posted
My only surprise is that it took so long!
Again, my compliments to the Admins and Hosts who have to parse these type of situations.
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Siegfried
Life is just a bowl of cherries!
Posts: 5592 | From: Tallahassee, FL USA | Registered: May 2001
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Robert Armin
All licens'd fool
# 182
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Posted
What Siegfried said. Thank you H&As for dealing with this.
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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin
Posts: 8927 | From: In the pack | Registered: May 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
How long until the "It's not faaaaair!" gang comes out of the woodwork? Bets?
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
What's not fair? Ender's was warned not to compare of homosexuality and paedophilia - he was clearly told he'd get a C1 response.
Then he goes and opens a thread in which he parallels them. I imagine the delay was while the Admins talked it through.
But it's a fair call imo. I can't see there being any brigade in the woodwork.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
I thought he must be deliberately aiming to get banned, not sure why. Fair warning given, after all. Is it a fantasized martyrdom to free speech?
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I thought he must be deliberately aiming to get banned, not sure why. Fair warning given, after all. Is it a fantasized martyrdom to free speech?
I suspect it's a martyrdom to his homophobia.
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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
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Organ Builder
Shipmate
# 12478
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
How long until the "It's not faaaaair!" gang comes out of the woodwork? Bets?
I've been trying to remember if he had a particular friend on the boards to come to his defense and start such a thread. I can't think of anyone but they may have escaped my notice, since I tended to avoid ES as much as possible because of his views.
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How desperately difficult it is to be honest with oneself. It is much easier to be honest with other people.--E.F. Benson
Posts: 3337 | From: ...somewhere in between 40 and death... | Registered: Mar 2007
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Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881
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Posted
I must confess I am actually surprised that we haven't had the usual voices speaking out against the arbitrary power-hungry Ship's Officers planking a beloved and valuable Shipmate and proposing a new board with 23 rules for properly discussing pedophilia.
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"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"
Posts: 5430 | From: Caprica City | Registered: Jul 2005
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glockenspiel
Shipmate
# 13645
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Posted
Can someone please point me to THE offending passage which occasioned the banning?
Posts: 1258 | From: Shropshire | Registered: Apr 2008
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Organ Builder
Shipmate
# 12478
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RooK:
His final C1 nail.
He is now gone.
Glockenspiel, this was Rook's second link, pointing out ES's final Commandment 1 violation. It is the OP of the last DH thread that ES started, to which you have contributed. It was also linked when Rook posted the same thing on that thread.
I suppose one could say "but he was just linking to someone else suggesting that..." but given his past posting habits and given the way he titled the thread I'm not surprised by his planking. Trying to shore up a blog post as "increasing academic respectability" probably didn't help his credibility, either.
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How desperately difficult it is to be honest with oneself. It is much easier to be honest with other people.--E.F. Benson
Posts: 3337 | From: ...somewhere in between 40 and death... | Registered: Mar 2007
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
In any case, several people on the thread in question picked up that he was NOT "just linking to someone else suggesting...", because he singled out homosexuality from heterosexuality in contrast to the source material. He also ignored the source material's deliberate distinction between pedophilia and homosexuality.
I think a perfectly reasonable conversation about pedophilia could have been started from the link that ES provided, and indeed Honest Ron Bacardi has been attempting exactly that. But ES' chosen angle was to make it about pedophilia + homosexuality.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
ETA: this is to the thread in general:
Let's try to avoid any unseemly attacks against someone who's no longer around to defend himself, shall we?
Marvin
Admin
[ 24. January 2013, 21:22: Message edited by: Marvin the Martian ]
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Eliab
Shipmate
# 9153
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
I must confess I am actually surprised that we haven't had the usual voices speaking out against the arbitrary power-hungry Ship's Officers planking a beloved and valuable Shipmate and proposing a new board with 23 rules for properly discussing pedophilia.
I don't think it was arbitrary or power-hungry, because Kelly's warning was pretty damned clear. But, FWIW, I'm not convinced that ES was ever trying to equate homosexuality and paedophilia. I think he was trying to make a 'just because its a natural impulse doesn't make it right' point, and wan't prepared to admit that the paedo thing was a spectacularly crass and inappropriate way of making that (in itself, not unreasonable) point.
And I think the Ship will be impoverished by the loss of an articulate exponent of conservative evangelical Christianity.
I wish he'd listened to the warning. I hope that if he contacts the admins with some indication that he'll listen to warnings in the future, they'll receive that graciously.
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"Perhaps there is poetic beauty in the abstract ideas of justice or fairness, but I doubt if many lawyers are moved by it"
Richard Dawkins
Posts: 4619 | From: Hampton, Middlesex, UK | Registered: Mar 2005
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eliab:
I hope that if he contacts the admins with some indication that he'll listen to warnings in the future, they'll receive that graciously.
Stranger things have happened. But not very often.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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glockenspiel
Shipmate
# 13645
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Organ Builder:
quote:
Originally posted by RooK:
His final C1 nail.
He is now gone.
Glockenspiel, this was Rook's second link, pointing out ES's final Commandment 1 violation. It is the OP of the last DH thread that ES started, to which you have contributed. It was also linked when Rook posted the same thing on that thread.
I suppose one could say "but he was just linking to someone else suggesting that..." but given his past posting habits and given the way he titled the thread I'm not surprised by his planking. Trying to shore up a blog post as "increasing academic respectability" probably didn't help his credibility, either.
Ok - so there he is referencing something which says it's almost entirely men - I still don't get it.
Posts: 1258 | From: Shropshire | Registered: Apr 2008
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eliab:
But, FWIW, I'm not convinced that ES was ever trying to equate homosexuality and paedophilia. I think he was trying to make a 'just because its a natural impulse doesn't make it right' point, and wan't prepared to admit that the paedo thing was a spectacularly crass and inappropriate way of making that (in itself, not unreasonable) point.
You're prepared to give him credit that I'm not, frankly, because of his continual repeated choice to only make that point in one context.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eliab:
FWIW, I'm not convinced that ES was ever trying to equate homosexuality and paedophilia. I think he was trying to make a 'just because its a natural impulse doesn't make it right' point, and wan't prepared to admit that the paedo thing was a spectacularly crass and inappropriate way of making that (in itself, not unreasonable) point.
I can't see how, from a Ship's 10 Commandments point of view, that distinction matters.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Niteowl
Hopeless Insomniac
# 15841
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by glockenspiel:
quote:
Originally posted by Organ Builder:
quote:
Originally posted by RooK:
His final C1 nail.
He is now gone.
Glockenspiel, this was Rook's second link, pointing out ES's final Commandment 1 violation. It is the OP of the last DH thread that ES started, to which you have contributed. It was also linked when Rook posted the same thing on that thread.
I suppose one could say "but he was just linking to someone else suggesting that..." but given his past posting habits and given the way he titled the thread I'm not surprised by his planking. Trying to shore up a blog post as "increasing academic respectability" probably didn't help his credibility, either.
Ok - so there he is referencing something which says it's almost entirely men - I still don't get it.
Because his point was equating homosexuality to pedophilia, which he was given a very specific final warning not to do. Orfeo puts it perfectly:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
In any case, several people on the thread in question picked up that he was NOT "just linking to someone else suggesting...", because he singled out homosexuality from heterosexuality in contrast to the source material. He also ignored the source material's deliberate distinction between pedophilia and homosexuality.
I think a perfectly reasonable conversation about pedophilia could have been started from the link that ES provided, and indeed Honest Ron Bacardi has been attempting exactly that. But ES' chosen angle was to make it about pedophilia + homosexuality.
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"love all, trust few, do wrong to no one"
Wm. Shakespeare
Posts: 2437 | From: U.S. | Registered: Aug 2010
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The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eliab:
And I think the Ship will be impoverished by the loss of an articulate exponent of conservative evangelical Christianity.
I wish he'd listened to the warning.
I'm glad the Hosts and Admins acted as they did, but I'm with Eliab here. I'm going to miss him and hope he petitions to return.
Posts: 7462 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001
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glockenspiel
Shipmate
# 13645
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Niteowl:
quote:
Originally posted by glockenspiel:
quote:
Originally posted by Organ Builder:
quote:
Originally posted by RooK:
His final C1 nail.
He is now gone.
Glockenspiel, this was Rook's second link, pointing out ES's final Commandment 1 violation. It is the OP of the last DH thread that ES started, to which you have contributed. It was also linked when Rook posted the same thing on that thread.
I suppose one could say "but he was just linking to someone else suggesting that..." but given his past posting habits and given the way he titled the thread I'm not surprised by his planking. Trying to shore up a blog post as "increasing academic respectability" probably didn't help his credibility, either.
Ok - so there he is referencing something which says it's almost entirely men - I still don't get it.
Because his point was equating homosexuality to pedophilia, which he was given a very specific final warning not to do. ...
Ok - I have now read the passage in question yet again - and it says it equates to hetrosexuality OR homosexuality - and this is the only passage which is being presented as evidence - so I still don't get it.
Posts: 1258 | From: Shropshire | Registered: Apr 2008
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by glockenspiel:
Ok - I have now read the passage in question yet again - and it says it equates to hetrosexuality OR homosexuality - and this is the only passage which is being presented as evidence - so I still don't get it.
The whole point of why ES was in trouble is because he wanted to talk about the parallels between pedophilia and homosexuality. Again.
One only has to compare ES' heading and opening sentence with the link/quote to see the difference between the passage presented as evidence and the angle that ES put on it.
If you're looking for something offensive in the material that ES linked to, you won't find it. That's the point.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Spawn
Shipmate
# 4867
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Organ Builder:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
How long until the "It's not faaaaair!" gang comes out of the woodwork? Bets?
I've been trying to remember if he had a particular friend on the boards to come to his defense and start such a thread. I can't think of anyone but they may have escaped my notice, since I tended to avoid ES as much as possible because of his views.
I wouldn't count myself as a particular friend though I have some sympathy with his basic underlying theology. He was about more than the subject of homosexuality in his postings on SOF. However, I think the conservative case is brought into disrepute when hurtful and unnecessary and completely illogical comparisons are made which leave people feeling belittled and insulted.
I can't see how the admins had any choice but to ban him given the extremely clear warning they'd already given. I hope he will acknowledge that he was at fault and apologise. If he does so, it hasn't been unknown for the admins to exercise some grace to offenders when they have served a reasonable sentence.
Posts: 3447 | From: North Devon | Registered: Aug 2003
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glockenspiel
Shipmate
# 13645
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by glockenspiel:
Ok - I have now read the passage in question yet again - and it says it equates to hetrosexuality OR homosexuality - and this is the only passage which is being presented as evidence - so I still don't get it.
The whole point of why ES was in trouble is because he wanted to talk about the parallels between pedophilia and homosexuality. Again.
One only has to compare ES' heading and opening sentence with the link/quote to see the difference between the passage presented as evidence and the angle that ES put on it.
If you're looking for something offensive in the material that ES linked to, you won't find it. That's the point.
Right - that's a little more helpful - So if HE had said that it is fine to parallel paedophilia with EITHER hetrosexuality or homosexuality, there wouldn't have been any problem?
Posts: 1258 | From: Shropshire | Registered: Apr 2008
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
Who's he?
If you mean ES had simply linked to an article about pedophilia which suggests that pedophilia is an innate orientation, then in my personal opinion he probably would have been okay. Sailing very close to the wind given his past history, but in and of itself I would have thought it was okay.
That's pretty much what I was trying to convey earlier. As I said, Honest Ron Bacardi has illustrated how you can have a conversation about the implications for pedophilia without attempting to make it "those pedophilias are just like those gays".
Please note, I am a Host not and Admin and I had no involvement in the decision to ban ES.
[ 25. January 2013, 09:52: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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glockenspiel
Shipmate
# 13645
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Posted
Oh, is it a she? I've lost track - the person who was banned.
Posts: 1258 | From: Shropshire | Registered: Apr 2008
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
Sorry, I've gone back and edited on you. For a moment I was confused about whether we were talking about Ender's Shadow or about the blogger that he linked to.
EDIT: And in the process I've made a shocking number of typos.
[ 25. January 2013, 09:54: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
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Posted
While there may be a small group who would wish Ender's Shadow's return, it ought to be said plainly that such a willfully obstreperous poster as he must consume considerable time and care, while producing an even greater amount of teeth-grinding and frustration in the Hostly Adminisphere.
I offer my thanks.
Posts: 7462 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001
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