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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Hosts - Administrators - Your thoughts please
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
A post in hell has prommpted a response which I consider amounts to an allegation of racism. I'd appreciate your thoughts. (Copied here FYI)
quote:
Originally posted by Spiffy:
[QUOTE]From this comment I can deduce you're a white male. Because a lot of the time if a woman of color speaks, they're considered loud and rude, no matter their tone or their demeanor.
You do jump to some bizarre (yet offensive) conclusions don't you? Yes, I am male but don't consider myself white (that is my right to determine).
Please do not accuse me of racism.
This allegation of racism - clearly directed personally -- is offensive. You can hardly know or be aware that I have served in a number of capacities in support of anti racist initiatives, as well as those designed to help all women acheive their potential. For most of my working life I've been in a male minority, have worked with and for women and have numerous friends across gender, race and sexuality.
My comment about loudness and rudeness was generic. I've never referred to "women of color" as a specific group as being considered loud or rude - this is pure invention on your part. You may be making a point - and yes, there's one to be made - but don't go kicking your supporters and allies. Friendly fire in this stuff isn't fun: it has an unfortunate habit of creating collateral damage.
[ 16. May 2013, 06:16: Message edited by: ExclamationMark ]
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
To save anyone else looking it up, the thread in Hell is "the youth of today according to Indifferently" and Spiffy's full post is here.
Did you PM a Hell Host before posting here? I suppose there may be some level of insult that is on the Hell Hosts' Index Expurgatorious? From outside that anointed circle, I'd simply observe that getting insulted in Hell is the normal risk any of us run if we post there.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
To save anyone else looking it up, the thread in Hell is "the youth of today according to Indifferently" and Spiffy's full post is here.
Did you PM a Hell Host before posting here? I suppose there may be some level of insult that is on the Hell Hosts' Index Expurgatorious? From outside that anointed circle, I'd simply observe that getting insulted in Hell is the normal risk any of us run if we post there.
No I didn't Pm a host.
I accept insults in Hell but I do think allegations of racism is a step beyond this. It would be an actionable remark in the workplace for example: so I do think there should be some line in the sand here.
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
I do think there should be some line in the sand here.
Fine, here it is: there is nothing in Spiffy's post that contravenes the rules or guidelines of Hell. As far as any our rules are concerned, calling someone a racist is no different to calling them an asshat, a fuckwit or a festering pile of yak vomit. There is not, nor shall there be, a prohibition against accusations of racism in Hell.
Furthermore, I'm having a hard time picturing a workplace that would treat someone making an accusation of racism any differently to someone using any of those other insults. "Being a racist" is not, so far as I am aware, a protected category for discrimination purposes. But as the Ship isn't a workplace that's not exactly relevant to the point, is it.
Oh, and if you meant that as a sort of oblique "I could sue you for that comment" threat, you might want to meditate on the fact that making threats of legal action against the Ship is a really good way of getting planked. But I'm sure that's not what you meant by that comment, right?
Marvin
Admin
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Caissa
Shipmate
# 16710
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Posted
Whether one makes threats of suing or refrains frommaking threats of suing has absolutely no effect on the legal liability that the Ship or any individual posting on it finds themselves subject to. The parameters of Hell can be problematic but, of course, the Ship's administrators already are aware of this fact. Actually accusing someone of racism as opposed to just levelling a nasty name at them is probably actionable. The Ship shouldnb't be so defensive about the chance of being sued when it has created the conditions for it happening in Hell. I'm not a lawyer and this is not a legal opinion.
Posts: 972 | From: Saint John, N.B. | Registered: Oct 2011
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Tubbs
Miss Congeniality
# 440
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
A post in hell has prommpted a response which I consider amounts to an allegation of racism. I'd appreciate your thoughts. (Copied here FYI)
quote:
Originally posted by Spiffy:
[QUOTE]From this comment I can deduce you're a white male. Because a lot of the time if a woman of color speaks, they're considered loud and rude, no matter their tone or their demeanor.
You do jump to some bizarre (yet offensive) conclusions don't you? Yes, I am male but don't consider myself white (that is my right to determine).
Please do not accuse me of racism.
This allegation of racism - clearly directed personally -- is offensive. You can hardly know or be aware that I have served in a number of capacities in support of anti racist initiatives, as well as those designed to help all women acheive their potential. For most of my working life I've been in a male minority, have worked with and for women and have numerous friends across gender, race and sexuality.
My comment about loudness and rudeness was generic. I've never referred to "women of color" as a specific group as being considered loud or rude - this is pure invention on your part. You may be making a point - and yes, there's one to be made - but don't go kicking your supporters and allies. Friendly fire in this stuff isn't fun: it has an unfortunate habit of creating collateral damage.
If you want to take Spiffy to task about her post and her assumption that you would somehow magically know that she is a woman of colour, then you could just repost that in Hell and fight it out there. Just a thought ...
Tubbs
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"It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it up and remove all doubt" - Dennis Thatcher. My blog. Decide for yourself which I am
Posts: 12701 | From: Someplace strange | Registered: Jun 2001
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Tubbs
Miss Congeniality
# 440
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Caissa:
Whether one makes threats of suing or refrains frommaking threats of suing has absolutely no effect on the legal liability that the Ship or any individual posting on it finds themselves subject to. The parameters of Hell can be problematic but, of course, the Ship's administrators already are aware of this fact. Actually accusing someone of racism as opposed to just levelling a nasty name at them is probably actionable. The Ship shouldnb't be so defensive about the chance of being sued when it has created the conditions for it happening in Hell. I'm not a lawyer and this is not a legal opinion.
As you are not a lawyer, it would be best that you don't offer legal advice or opinion. Same goes for anyone else either.
Tubbs
Styx Host
[ 16. May 2013, 12:02: Message edited by: Tubbs ]
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"It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it up and remove all doubt" - Dennis Thatcher. My blog. Decide for yourself which I am
Posts: 12701 | From: Someplace strange | Registered: Jun 2001
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Caissa
Shipmate
# 16710
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Posted
I think my last sentence made it clear I wasn't offering legal advice or a legal opinion, Tubbs. I suppose if you found my comments problematic you could always call me to Hell. ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
Posts: 972 | From: Saint John, N.B. | Registered: Oct 2011
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Tubbs
Miss Congeniality
# 440
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Caissa:
I think my last sentence made it clear I wasn't offering legal advice or a legal opinion, Tubbs. I suppose if you found my comments problematic you could always call me to Hell.
Of course you weren't. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif) And my post wasn't signed as a Styx Host. ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
Tubbs
[ 16. May 2013, 12:12: Message edited by: Tubbs ]
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"It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it up and remove all doubt" - Dennis Thatcher. My blog. Decide for yourself which I am
Posts: 12701 | From: Someplace strange | Registered: Jun 2001
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Caissa
Shipmate
# 16710
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Posted
I see how you were awarded Miss Congeniality.
Posts: 972 | From: Saint John, N.B. | Registered: Oct 2011
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Tubbs:
If you want to take Spiffy to task about her post and her assumption that you would somehow magically know that she is a woman of colour, then you could just repost (your OP comments)in Hell and fight it out there. Just a thought ...
(edited for brevity by B62)
Tubbs
ExclamationMark already did that, Tubbs.
The problem is that the code in the OP (which you originally quoted in full) is messed up.
[ 16. May 2013, 13:02: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
I do think there should be some line in the sand here.
Fine, here it is: there is nothing in Spiffy's post that contravenes the rules or guidelines of Hell. As far as any our rules are concerned, calling someone a racist is no different to calling them an asshat, a fuckwit or a festering pile of yak vomit. There is not, nor shall there be, a prohibition against accusations of racism in Hell.
Furthermore, I'm having a hard time picturing a workplace that would treat someone making an accusation of racism any differently to someone using any of those other insults. "Being a racist" is not, so far as I am aware, a protected category for discrimination purposes. But as the Ship isn't a workplace that's not exactly relevant to the point, is it.
Oh, and if you meant that as a sort of oblique "I could sue you for that comment" threat, you might want to meditate on the fact that making threats of legal action against the Ship is a really good way of getting planked. But I'm sure that's not what you meant by that comment, right?
Marvin
Admin
No I didn't mean it as a threat, merely an observation, If I decide to sue anyone the first that they'd know of it is a writ.
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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Tubbs
Miss Congeniality
# 440
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
quote:
Originally posted by Tubbs:
If you want to take Spiffy to task about her post and her assumption that you would somehow magically know that she is a woman of colour, then you could just repost (your OP comments)in Hell and fight it out there. Just a thought ...
(edited for brevity by B62)
Tubbs
ExclamationMark already did that, Tubbs.
The problem is that the code in the OP (which you originally quoted in full) is messed up.
Thank you. Apologies for missing that. Note to self ... More caffine.
Tubbs
[ 16. May 2013, 13:35: Message edited by: Tubbs ]
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"It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it up and remove all doubt" - Dennis Thatcher. My blog. Decide for yourself which I am
Posts: 12701 | From: Someplace strange | Registered: Jun 2001
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
I do think there should be some line in the sand here.
Fine, here it is: there is nothing in Spiffy's post that contravenes the rules or guidelines of Hell. As far as any our rules are concerned, calling someone a racist is no different to calling them an asshat, a fuckwit or a festering pile of yak vomit. There is not, nor shall there be, a prohibition against accusations of racism in Hell.
Furthermore, I'm having a hard time picturing a workplace that would treat someone making an accusation of racism any differently to someone using any of those other insults. "Being a racist" is not, so far as I am aware, a protected category for discrimination purposes. But as the Ship isn't a workplace that's not exactly relevant to the point, is it.
Oh, and if you meant that as a sort of oblique "I could sue you for that comment" threat, you might want to meditate on the fact that making threats of legal action against the Ship is a really good way of getting planked. But I'm sure that's not what you meant by that comment, right?
Marvin
Admin
A charge of racism in the workplace would be an issue of Gross Misconduct. The others you mention, possibly misconduct only - always providing it wasn't supposed to be a joke.
Racism is never treated as a joke - far too serious an issue for that.
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
A charge of racism in the workplace would be an issue of Gross Misconduct.
Really? Wow. How do you stop people from being racist in the workplace if calling them out for it constitutes Gross Misconduct?
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Caissa
Shipmate
# 16710
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Posted
It would be if its baseless and malicious.
Posts: 972 | From: Saint John, N.B. | Registered: Oct 2011
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
A charge of racism in the workplace would be an issue of Gross Misconduct.
Really? Wow. How do you stop people from being racist in the workplace if calling them out for it constitutes Gross Misconduct?
Sorry Marvin, I don't quite get your point here.
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
Equating a social space such as the Ship with a workplace is extremely problematic.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
Let's look at what actually happened.
No one made a directly racist remark. No one made a direct accusation of racism. These things are different.
What was posted was on the Hell board, which is our place for insults and the like. It may have been posted in the heat of the moment. That's par for the course in Hell too and anyone who has more than a nodding acquaintance with the place knows it.
With the exception, at times, of the Hosts and Admins, no part of The Ship of Fools is a workplace. But, Exclamation Mark, Caissa and Spiffy too, it certainly isn't your workplace at any time. It's your playground and we let people call each other names in the part of this playground known as Hell.
That's how this particular Hellhost reads it.
Sioni Sais
eta: x-p with orfeo, who said all the above in 1 (one) line.
[ 16. May 2013, 17:11: Message edited by: Sioni Sais ]
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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anselmo
Apprentice
# 17685
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Posted
Hey, if you're going to go in for online sacraments and that kind of sacrilege (a la protestentae prelestae), which of course arent real anyway, you should expect ANYTHING re. racism and sins against human dignity. After all, many of Luther's Sermons (see his Gesammelte Werke) read like "Mein Kampf"!!!
Posts: 3 | From: arctic | Registered: May 2013
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
[Hosting]
Anselmo, if you want to discuss any of the topics to which you referred other than the issue raised in the OP ("are accusations of racism acceptable on the Hell board?"), please poke around the boards and find an appropriate place to do so. Carefully reading the 10 Commandments (here ) and FAQ's (here) , as well as the board descriptions, will help in your research.
Kelly Alves
Admin/ Styx Host.
[ 16. May 2013, 23:45: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
Let's look at what actually happened.
No one made a directly racist remark. No one made a direct accusation of racism. These things are different.
What was posted was on the Hell board, which is our place for insults and the like. It may have been posted in the heat of the moment. That's par for the course in Hell too and anyone who has more than a nodding acquaintance with the place knows it.
With the exception, at times, of the Hosts and Admins, no part of The Ship of Fools is a workplace. But, Exclamation Mark, Caissa and Spiffy too, it certainly isn't your workplace at any time. It's your playground and we let people call each other names in the part of this playground known as Hell.
That's how this particular Hellhost reads it.
Sioni Sais
eta: x-p with orfeo, who said all the above in 1 (one) line.
Thanks. Noted.
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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