Ship of Fools: I'm a bit confused.....

Thread: I'm a bit confused..... Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by MrsBeaky (# 17663) on :

.....and need to ask a question but please don't take the piss out of me too much for asking it!

I've just been reading the thread in Hell about orfeo's sex life and my question is this: what is hell for? I get that it's a place to take arguments that have become personal on the other boards and I also get that it's a place to let off steam and also for the clever amongst us to exercise their humorous way with words which might be what is happening with this above mentioned thread but to me it sounds nasty and I'm now worried for orfeo!

It may well be that I am being like Margot in "The Good Life" and just not getting the joke but please set me straight.

Off now to church so I'll pray for orfeo!

Posted by The Midge (# 2398) on :

From what I gather there is only one real sin in SoF Hell; that is p---ing off a hell host/ admin. Anything else goes, so if you haven't got asbestos underpants it is best to stay away. Hell is the most restless place on a site dedicated to Christian unrest.

Going in and complaining ITTWACWS or making a fool of yourself is plain dumb. It is like going around with a T Shirt printed with "KICK ME" front and back. There is a pack of Cerberus (Cerberi?)circling.

The funny thing is once you accept it you grow to love it.

Posted by Pooks (# 11425) on :

quote:
Originally posted by MrsBeaky:

It may well be that I am being like Margot in "The Good Life" and just not getting the joke but please set me straight.

I don't get the joke either, (but that is not unusual), so you are not alone. The thing is, Orfeo is a Hell host, so I am assuming he can handle what's going on.

I do think the thread has raised an interesting question though, is starting a Hell thread simply because Hell is slow falls within the guideline for Hell?

Posted by MrsBeaky (# 17663) on :

Thanks, The Midge
I had no intention whatsoever of going in there and complaining and certainly not playing the "Christian" card: the possibility of meeting Cerberus does indeed loom large....I'm happy to lurk there and find some of the stuff really quite amusing, I guess I just fell for it and was worried for orfeo!

Posted by Nenya (# 16427) on :

quote:
Originally posted by The Midge:
ITTWACWS

What does that stand for, please? I used to have a link to SoF abbreviations but can't find it now.

Nen - another Hell-lurker.

Posted by Firenze (# 619) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Nenya:

quote:
Originally posted by The Midge:
ITTWACWS
What does that stand for, please? I used to have a link to SoF abbreviations but can't find it.

I Thought This Was A Christian Website.

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :

Regrettably, Pooks, your assumption is not valid.

It is not appropriate for me to say a lot about the merits of the matter, for obvious reasons. But I will say that as I am technically on leave at the moment (because of my travels and the difficulty of hosting on the move) I fully intend to not post in Hell again until I return home in August. This decision was a result of the thread.

Posted by Nenya (# 16427) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:

quote:
Originally posted by Nenya:

quote:
Originally posted by The Midge:
ITTWACWS
What does that stand for, please? I used to have a link to SoF abbreviations but can't find it.
I Thought This Was A Christian Website.

Thank you.

{{{orfeo}}} [Frown]

Posted by MrsBeaky (# 17663) on :

Originally posted by orfeo:

quote:
It is not appropriate for me to say a lot about the merits of the matter, for obvious reasons. But I will say that as I am technically on leave at the moment (because of my travels and the difficulty of hosting on the move) I fully intend to not post in Hell again until I return home in August. This decision was a result of the thread.

Oh dear, orfeo [Frown]

I hope your travels go well.

Posted by Pooks (# 11425) on :

quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Regrettably, Pooks, your assumption is not valid.

It is not appropriate for me to say a lot about the merits of the matter, for obvious reasons. But I will say that as I am technically on leave at the moment (because of my travels and the difficulty of hosting on the move) I fully intend to not post in Hell again until I return home in August. This decision was a result of the thread.

I am very sorry indeed, Orfeo. Please accept my apology for getting that wrong.

I questioned the validity of the OP earlier because that's the only way that I can think of to get the admin and hosts to consider shutting it down. Now I would like to request it openly. Please, Ye gods, can we lock/remove that thread please?

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :

I'm not going to comment on the merits or otherwise of the thread but I can confirm that this Hellhost has been attacked in Hell by any number of people! Sometimes it has been over hosting decisions, in which case they get diverted here, but if otherwise, they stay there and I have to deal with it.

It's fair to say however that there are areas of my life I'd rather not have discussed. Hands up all those who aren't?

Posted by Wesley J (# 6075) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Nenya:

quote:
Originally posted by The Midge:
ITTWACWS
What does that stand for, please? [...]

Nen - another Hell-lurker.

Time to get the mug (link here)? In fact, why not all of them! [Yipee]

I've got the whole set twice, though some went as presents! - They're very good quality and keep your tea hot or at least reasonably warm for quite a while. Plus you support the Ship. [Smile]

Posting these to you is safe and reliable. They come in sturdy polystyrene packaging.

Posted by passer (# 13329) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
I'm not going to comment on the merits or otherwise of the thread but I can confirm that this Hellhost has been attacked in Hell by any number of people! Sometimes it has been over hosting decisions, in which case they get diverted here, but if otherwise, they stay there and I have to deal with it.

It's fair to say however that there are areas of my life I'd rather not have discussed. Hands up all those who aren't?

This thread isn't about you, but thanks for your input.

Posted by Pooks (# 11425) on :

Hi SS,

I am not attacking you, or any other host or Shipmate, but you are a Hell host, yes?

My question to you is: Does starting a Hell thread simply because Hell is a bit slow for one's entertainment fall within the remit of what Hell is for?

Thank you. [Smile]

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Pooks:
Hi SS,

I am not attacking you, or any other host or Shipmate, but you are a Hell host, yes?

That is so, and I take no offence.

I was flagging up that Hellhosts don't consider themselves invulnerable. Far from it but C6 (respect the Hosts) does apply, although only when we are acting officially.

quote:

My question to you is: Does starting a Hell thread simply because Hell is a bit slow for one's entertainment fall within the remit of what Hell is for?

Thank you.

As for "Starting a Hell thread because Hell is a bit slow" I have to confess that this has happened and I'm sure it will happen again. Another reason is to give a tangent a home of its own. The "Calling the CofE to Hell thread" is an example.

Posted by The Midge (# 2398) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Wesley J:

quote:
Originally posted by Nenya:

quote:
Originally posted by The Midge:
ITTWACWS
What does that stand for, please? [...]

Nen - another Hell-lurker.
Time to get the mug (link here)? In fact, why not all of them!

I've got the whole set twice, though some went as presents! - They're very good quality and keep your tea hot or at least reasonably warm for quite a while. Plus you support the Ship.

Posting these to you is safe and reliable. They come in sturdy polystyrene packaging.

If they are for tea then they will have to be fine bone china. Is there a set discount?
[Code fix]

[ 30. June 2013, 15:34: Message edited by: The Midge ]

Posted by Pooks (# 11425) on :

Thank you SS. I have no problem with tangents going to Hell, especially if there is a reason for the Hellishness, but I must admit that I am a little baffled that one can just pick on someone for no other reason than because Hell is slow. It seems to widen the remit of Hell considerably. Still, it's your judgement call and I will respect you and shut up.

Thank you again for all the hard work that you have put into running the Ship.

Best wishes.

Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :

The way I understand it, the TICTH thread in Hell is for short rants only. Orfeo's rant about bars in NYC started a discussion involving various replies, so I guess this is why Hell-Host comet said 'take it somewhere else'. This might be Hell-talk for 'cut it out', but of course someone had to take it literally.

If I were Orfeo, I guess I would grow uncomfortable with people discussing my sex life after a while too. I understand that things can go pretty far in Hell sometimes, but maybe we should introduce a safe-word meaning 'I don't want this to be talked about any further'.

Posted by Organ Builder (# 12478) on :

One very good way to keep it from going farther than you wish is not to mention the number of notches you've added to the bedpost recently.

Unfortunately, that sent mixed signals at best. It was a bit like "I'm embarrassed that this is being discussed, but I want to take the opportunity to brag about my prowess."

Posted by Fineline (# 12143) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Nenya:
I used to have a link to SoF abbreviations but can't find it now.

I know this is a tangent, but does anyone know if there is such a link? I don't know all the abbreviations. I'm still trying to work out what TICTH means. I've been guessing something along the lines of 'today I choose to hate', but that doesn't seem quite right, and googling for past TICTH threads hasn't enlightened me.

ETA: Ah, page 2 of the current thread has informed me what TICTH means, but a link to the list of abbreviations would still be handy if there is one.

[ 30. June 2013, 17:04: Message edited by: Fineline ]

Posted by Wesley J (# 6075) on :

'Today, I call to Hell'

Posted by balaam (# 4543) on :

T oday
I
C onsign
T o
H ell

Posted by Fineline (# 12143) on :

Thanks, Balaam and Wesley - I just saw it on page 2 of the thread too. That makes a lot more sense than my speculations.

Posted by Wesley J (# 6075) on :

Ah, that's balaam for the soul!

More here - scroll down, too. [Smile]

NB. Found by using the Boards' search function, with 'abbreviations'.

Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :

There are ways of being hellish that respect people (no matter how much you may dislike/detest/be furious with them, and then there are things that just aren't Done. We had a case a few years ago where someone duggested suicide as a plan of action. That isn't hellish, that's just plain nasty. So is picking someone's known vulnerabilities, e.g., giving them grief right at the point of a parent's death or a spouse walking out, particularly grief that relates to that bleeding wound. And then there are the chinks in the armor we all have, where well-meant teasing causes much more reaction than expected, and that's usually a signal that it's time to move on, more is going on than we realize.

Of course some people will just keep hammering away on the issue even after it becomes clear that a decent person would back off. They have that right i suppose, but the other hellions will usually pile on them to stop. Hell tends to correct itself.

Posted by Fineline (# 12143) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Wesley J:
More here - scroll down, too.

NB. Found by using the Boards' search function, with 'abbreviations'.

Thanks, Wesley. The link on Board Culture simply leads back to that same thread that links to it, so it's a circular endeavour, but the thread itself has some abbreviations listed on it.

Posted by Autenrieth Road (# 10509) on :

Lamb Chopped, so Hell is about decent people, backing off, being self-correcting, respecting people, and engaging in well-meant teasing?

Odd, I thought Hell was the place with no rules (except not be a racist and don't post copyright material, and sundry other of the Ship's commandments as survive in Hell, "don't be a jerk" notably not being a commandment that survives) where people could take personal conflicts to keep them off the other boards. As a consequence of the no-rules goes a lot of what is either wonderful catharsis or shitty abuse, depending on which end of the ass-kicking you're on.

Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on :

ADMINLY DISINTEGRATION RAY ARMED

quote:
Originally posted by passer:

quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
I'm not going to comment on the merits or otherwise of the thread but I can confirm that this Hellhost has been attacked in Hell by any number of people! Sometimes it has been over hosting decisions, in which case they get diverted here, but if otherwise, they stay there and I have to deal with it.

It's fair to say however that there are areas of my life I'd rather not have discussed. Hands up all those who aren't?
This thread isn't about you, but thanks for your input.

Passer, that is more than vaguely reminiscent of a cheap dig, personal attack or snidey insinuation against a Host. Ergo, as per this warning you are banned for a month.

For the record, the next one will be permanent. In the meantime: goodbye.

Marvin
Admin

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Organ Builder:
One very good way to keep it from going farther than you wish is not to mention the number of notches you've added to the bedpost recently.

Unfortunately, that sent mixed signals at best. It was a bit like "I'm embarrassed that this is being discussed, but I want to take the opportunity to brag about my prowess."

If I was calmer and wiser at the time rather than shocked and outraged, I would have been smart enough to realise that Sine wouldn't back off when I told him he was wrong. Rather he'd just pick a different tack.

So instead of suggesting I went to the bar for sex (wrong) and was upset because I had failed to get any (wrong), I got imputations that I had picked up at bars (wrong) and presumably had slept with a different person every night (wrong) and perhaps that I was just annoyed I hadnt succeeded on the particular night (wrong).

I got called a slut and, last time I could stand to glance at the thread, Sine was suggesting I was 'fucking my away across Manhattan' or something like that.

I'd be quite interested to know exactly what the criterion is for being a slut. If meeting someone you like and sleeping with them 3 times is sufficient, there are a hell of a lot of sluts in the world. And yes, I realise I'm discussing my sex life again, but I'm not really divulging any more than was already divulged except for the shocking revelation that it was 3 times with 1 person, not 1 time each with 3 different people. I still think it is occasionally worth my while to set out some actual facts rather than leave the field to smutty innuendo.

Others will have to make their own conclusions about my contribution to what went on. My own personal opinion is that such a thread should not exist in the first place and is not appropriate for Hell, but that is my personal opinion which I have not discussed with Hosts and Admins. I see Hell's function as dealing with anger, hence the existence of the Hellcall. This was not a Hellcall.

I would like to think that would be my opinion regardless of the target of the thread. I have been trying to think of any other equivalent threads, where someone is named but is not being called to Hell for the upsetting contents of their posts elsewhere, to see whether I had let such threads through myself in the past. I couldn't immediately think of any examples. You can be sure, having experienced having my name up in lights on a Hell thread that is not a Hellcall, that I will be keeping alert for any such threads in the future.

Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :

Some of us may remember a few sad words you said many moons ago: A person should not have to wait until they are 35 to be kissed on a dance floor.

Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :

Autenreith Road, my point was that there is being a shithead and then there is being a SHITHEAD with a capital SHIT. Most of us have personal standards even in Hell. To be sure, those who have none at all are going to survive longer in Hell than they would on any other board because of the greater freedom to say shitty things; but there are depths even the hardened denizens won't tolerate. Not forever.

Not that the Admins will necessarily step in; the hellions sometimes chew them up on their own.

Posted by Twilight (# 2832) on :

Well. I'm surprised to see this thread because until this moment I thought Orfeo, at most, was just mildly irritated with the Hell thread. I thought, and still feel, that it was only intended to be some friendly teasing. I don't think Sine Nomine has a mean bone in his body.

But as Orfeo is truly upset then I must apologize for my part in the thread. My posts were lame, or as Evensong said, "naff," attempts to make some sort of innuendo out of Orfeo's most recent rants in TICTH. I always enjoy his short rants there and the one about the washing machines in the hotel laundry room had tickled me. As I was viewing it the thread could have as easily been in Circus with anyone's name on it. The "game" being to make up a little story about a shipmate using information we have from recent posts.

The thing is, we weren't really laughing at your sex life, Orfeo, because, for obvious reasons we actually know nothing about it. So, unlike with IRL friends who had told us vivid details it seemed harmless to pretend a little jealousy about what might have been a wild time in Manhattan, or at least pretend that we were getting a vicarious thrill thinking about it.

For me, and I think for some others, it wasn't really about anything but our own bit of word play on a boring Sunday morning.

So I'm sorry. My posts weren't even funny and they hurt the feelings of someone I like and admire. Naff is me.

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :

Twilight, while I was initially as irritated with your posts as anyone else's, it didn't take me long to get past that. I actually thought the laundry one was quite funny.

Partly that's because it was a clever reference to something I said earlier. And partly because it simply didn't come across as making the same kind of insinuation as other posts. What you proposed was a situation where something happened, which was very different from suggesting I was trawling the city for sex. There was creativity and wit behind your remarks that was lacking elsewhere.

That is, of course, my personal opinion of the relative merits, but I think it's worth conveying it to you.

Posted by Palimpsest (# 16772) on :

I do hope my posts on the thread did not upset you. That was not my intention.

quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:

I'd be quite interested to know exactly what the criterion is for being a slut. If meeting someone you like and sleeping with them 3 times is sufficient, there are a hell of a lot of sluts in the world.

1) irregular noun used to describe someone who is more promiscuous than the describer.

2) A woman who has sex and enjoys it.

[ 01. July 2013, 07:22: Message edited by: Palimpsest ]

Posted by Sarkycow (# 1012) on :

So many entertaining misapprehensions, so little time.

Hell's primary purpose is to contain arguments, which ensures debate can continue on the other boards.

Pretty much anything goes in Hell - barring things which get the Ship in legal hot water, nice reasonable debate, and dead horses (unless the discussion is very heated).

Sine was being mean in his teasing, but that's ok in Hell. And all the people who think he was being a big old meany can tell him that. In Hell. That's the joy of Hell - you may say what you like, and other people may also say what they like.

And Pooks (and others): You can start a thread because it's a slow day, or because you're bored, or because the weather is rubbish, or for any one of a million reasons others might not think are very good ones. That doesn't matter. In fact, you don't really need any reason to start a thread. Hell's remit is wide open in that regard.

Lamb chopped (and others): People don't have to be decent in Hell. They can carry on hammering at a weak point as long as they can stand the heat. You are right that Hell tends to correct itself, and so other denizens will often come back at somebody who is doing that and find their weak points. It's not the role of the hosts to ensure people keep to a minimum standard of morality or niceness. Hell isn't for niceness or morality.

I think I'll reiterate - everybody who is angered/saddened/whatevered by Sine's thread about orfeo is entirely free and welcome to go and tell him so on his thread. It's not the job of the hosts and admins to do so, or to close the thread to protect orfeo from Sine.

Posted by Pooks (# 11425) on :

Hi Sarkycow. Thank you for taking the time to clarify the remit of Hell for me. Now I do see the purpose of Hell in a very different light.

Cheers!

Posted by Organ Builder (# 12478) on :

It could have been a lot worse. At least no one has compared orfeo to a Jane Austen character.

Posted by MrsBeaky (# 17663) on :

Aha!
My questions are answered.....it's probably not the best place for me but hope you all continue to have fun [Biased]

Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :

I was just wondering, apart from this specific thread about Orfeo: what if someone starts an unsollicited thread in Hell about someone's sex life, and the person in question doesn't want that? I understand that it's a bit different in this case because Orfeo has posted on this thread, but what would happen in general?

Suppose someone starts a thread on Shipmate X's sex life in Hell, with lots of people chipping in, and Shipmate X doesn't want this to be discussed. It seems that the only thing (s)he can hope for is for lots of people to pile on the thread starter.

Posted by Pooks (# 11425) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Organ Builder:
It could have been a lot worse. At least no one has compared orfeo to a Jane Austen character.

Yes. But then only a moron would think that a quote alone without it being apt for the situation will work. Sadly, I can remember quite a few such attempts.

Posted by RuthW (# 13) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Organ Builder:
It could have been a lot worse. At least no one has compared orfeo to a Jane Austen character.

What's wrong with that?!?

Posted by Organ Builder (# 12478) on :

Nothing in particular, RuthW, except that I've rarely seen the degree of outrage displayed in Hell that was caused when one Shipmate comparing another to Mrs. Bennett...

Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :

You know, after that crack was made about me I took it to heart and cut down my posting by about ninety percent. I've no desire to be a flaming bore. Since then it's been resurrected about six times, sometimes on threads I wasn't even participating in. I think I'd better stop inflicting myself on you. I'm with Orfeo--I'm overdue for a long, long stretch of shoreleave, possibly permanent--which will doubtless improve things no end here. I may still read since I'm a sad, sad little shit with no life and no sense of dignity. But I don't like what I see the Ship becoming.

[ 01. July 2013, 19:49: Message edited by: Lamb Chopped ]

Posted by Organ Builder (# 12478) on :

Lamb Chopped, there were very particular reasons why I referred to the incident without naming either shipmate.

Posted by Yorick (# 12169) on :

Don't you fucking dare leave, LC. Some of us need you to be a contributing member here.

Posted by RuthW (# 13) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Organ Builder:
Nothing in particular, RuthW, except that I've rarely seen the degree of outrage displayed in Hell that was caused when one Shipmate comparing another to Mrs. Bennett...

Ah, I see -- I don't know if I missed this or have simply forgotten about it.

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Sarkycow:

I think I'll reiterate - everybody who is angered/saddened/whatevered by Sine's thread about orfeo is entirely free and welcome to go and tell him so on his thread. It's not the job of the hosts and admins to do so, or to close the thread to protect orfeo from Sine.

Pretty much this.

Anybody who is angry enough to leave over this should be angry enough to compose a fantastic Hell post about the matter. Some of the best writers and most intelligent people I have ever met use these boards-- y'all need to be brave and speak up.

Yeah, people will speak back, but so what?

Posted by Fineline (# 12143) on :

Lamb Chopped, I don't know what happened with the Jane Austen thing, but I hope you don't leave. I like seeing your posts - they contain a lot of refreshing wisdom and insight.

Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :

LC you're a cherished voice of education and sanity in the ranks of Reform/Lutheran shippies. I'd be sorry to see you go.

Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :

Lamb Chopped, I hope you don't leave. I've especially valued your posts in Kerygmania and look forward to more.

[ 01. July 2013, 22:19: Message edited by: Gee D ]

Posted by Twilight (# 2832) on :

quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
I was just wondering, apart from this specific thread about Orfeo: what if someone starts an unsollicited thread in Hell about someone's sex life, and the person in question doesn't want that?

People usually don't want the threads started about them in Hell. I've never had anyone start a thread about my sex life, probably because such a subject would be a huge creative stretch for even the ship's best writers, but I did have someone start a thread about my sphincter one time and it went as you've guessed, at first others were happy to join in and then a few came to my defense -- or "had my back," as they say, (sorry, I just can't stop myself.)

My point being, where have you and Lamb Chopped been? To me it seems like Hell has softened somewhat in recent years. Mrs Bennet? Really? Literary characters are hardly the severe beat downs I've seen Evensong and others get on a weekly basis -- and I say this after having someone compare me to that awful, shallow girl from, "The Poisonwood Bible."

Posted by rugasaw (# 7315) on :

Here is the thing. Everybody is vulnerable in some way. And the more one invests themselves the worse they can be hurt. I think Orfeo not posting on that thread is probably the smart thing.

Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :

So, is the conclusion: anyone can start a thread in Hell on the sex life of any Shipmate (s)he wants, and the only thing this Shipmate can hope for is that enough other Shipmates will come to his/her defence? Or is there more to it?

Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :

{{{{{{{Orfeo}}}}}}}

I understand your wanting time off, especially in combination with your travels. But please don't leave permanently.

{{{{{{{Lamb Chopped}}}}}}}

Please neither vacate nor leave permanently.

Same to anyone else who's thinking of leaving.

As bad as it can be, Hell has been much, much worse in the past. This is a *relatively* mellow version of it.

I'm not defending the excesses of Hell. I've spoken up, a good many times, about them.

But Hell isn't the sum total of the Ship.

Posted by Nicolemr (# 28) on :

Got to chime in here to add my voice to those who are asking Lamb Chopped not to leave. Don't go, please!

Posted by Leaf (# 14169) on :

Earnestness is a flammable substance in Hell. If you carry it in with you, expect to abandon it quickly or be burned.

I am very sorry that orfeo and Lamb Chopped have been hurt. I do not wish to see either of you depart, temporarily or permanently. I enjoy your postings. And I am very sorry that you have had this painful experience with Hell. I do not know what to say beyond that; my bag of salve is limited. I hope you stay.

If necessary, practice this liturgical response for Hell: "Ah, fuck you too."

Posted by no prophet (# 15560) on :

From my brief time here, I have understood that the line was at the level of legal liability. But then apparently suicide and related references to self are also off, and then there's some reference to priestess and bishopess being off limits. Would overt racism, sexism, homophobia or attacks on some groups be okay and not on others in hell? Hard to really know. Sometimes it doesn't really seem there are any lines, and at other times there are sort of some. The only one that seems clear is obedience etc to hosts/admin.

Certainly, some people are much, much nastier than they would be in person or electronically to others who could identify them. I stopped doing anything here last week until I saw this tonight due to observations that predated the sexual life thread about a member, and will be interested to see if in fact, the ship is really self correcting and worth staying with.

Posted by RooK (# 1852) on :

quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
So, is the conclusion: anyone can start a thread in Hell on the sex life of any Shipmate (s)he wants, and the only thing this Shipmate can hope for is that enough other Shipmates will come to his/her defence? Or is there more to it?

There is more to it. It is also allowable to ignore stupid Hell threads, even ones pointed at you specifically.

To those who want to leave: just go. See if it suits you better.
If it doesn't, just come back. No harm, no foul.

But to dangle your participation in some histrionic game? It's the fucking internet, and you're all nominally adults.

Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on :

quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
Sometimes it doesn't really seem there are any lines, and at other times there are sort of some.

There are lines, but they're deliberately fuzzy and loosely defined to stop assholes playing the "how close can i get to breaking the rules without actually breaking them" game.

The problem here is not the rules. The problem is that pretty much everyone has hot buttons that when pressed will send them into fits of apoplexy, be it discussion of their sex life, comparison to a fictional character, or whatever. And we can't legislate for that.

Posted by The Midge (# 2398) on :

So the universal rule of internet forums also applies to Hell:
Behind every pitchfork there is a real, feeling human being.

Posted by Yorick (# 12169) on :

quote:
Originally posted by RooK:
But to dangle your participation in some histrionic game? It's the fucking internet, and you're all nominally adults.

Are you referring specifically to the behaviour of orfeo and Lamb Chopped? If so, I think you need The Nurse to go through her Understanding Human Behaviour, The Basics for you one more time.

The fact that you're so dismissive of people's investment here says something about you, and that's a problem when your being so and being an Admin says something about the Ship.

Posted by MrsBeaky (# 17663) on :

Blimey!
This is not quite what I intended to happen with my OP.
Sorry if I inadvertently stirred things up.

Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:

quote:
Originally posted by RooK:
But to dangle your participation in some histrionic game? It's the fucking internet, and you're all nominally adults.
Are you referring specifically to the behaviour of orfeo and Lamb Chopped? If so, I think you need The Nurse to go through her Understanding Human Behaviour, The Basics for you one more time.

The fact that you're so dismissive of people's investment here says something about you, and that's a problem when your being so and being an Admin says something about the Ship.

Problem is, Yorick, this shows a hot button of your own. On personal levels we can all be as sensitive as we want to be, but once we try to incorporate that into the guidelines here, the place is doomed.

The ethos is unrest. There aren't too many of us who have hung around for a while who haven't been discomforted or had our buttons pressed by someone or something. Sure, sometimes it comes across as cruel and unusual. I'm not all that thick-skinned either. After some bruising encounters here I've sometimes thought "why do I bother?". But that's the thing about hot buttons. We cool off and re-evaluate.

For good or ill, Shipmate, the balance of the loose guidelines and H&A monitoring (rather than a complex cookbook) has probably done more for the survival of this forum than anything else. Sarky's post is spot on re Hell policy and Marvin's pragmatism gets pretty close to the heart of application across the piece.

Best we can do, I think. And we do try to do our best in the wider interests of the place.

Posted by Yorick (# 12169) on :

I wholeheartedly agree with all of that, B62, and think Sarky's post should be stapled to the mast on Hell for perpetuity. And you're right about my own hot button- I do get upset when I feel people are put off contributing here, especially by the PtB. The ethos here is democratically free and open communication- something Erin was absolutely passionate about- and whenever people find they have to leave, that's a minus. When it's because they feel the Ship is being navigated through seas they cannot endure, that's a bad thing. And when it's LC and orfeo, that's a very bad thing.

I just want as many people as possible to feel welcome to contribute here. Soppy idealism maybe, but there it is.

Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
I do get upset when I feel people are put off contributing here, especially by the PtB. The ethos here is democratically free and open communication- something Erin was absolutely passionate about- and whenever people find they have to leave, that's a minus. When it's because they feel the Ship is being navigated through seas they cannot endure, that's a bad thing.

Ay, there's the rub! Because ISTM that closing down discussions such as the one that inspired this thread would be antithetical to the principle of democratically free and open communication. And if we were to do so in order to stop some people from leaving, would we just end up causing a different set of people to leave? And if people are going to leave whatever we do is it better to chart the course of openness or censure? Such are the questions that keep the cocktail bar in the H&A Lounge busy [Frown]

...

Posted by Yorick (# 12169) on :

Maybe I'm not being clear. My particular gripe is with Admins who say that valued Shipmates who admit considering leaving are just dangling their participation in a histrionic game, when this might encourage them to jump ship. It's unnecessary and counterproductive.

Posted by Tubbs (# 440) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
Maybe I'm not being clear. My particular gripe is with Admins who say that valued Shipmates who admit considering leaving are just dangling their participation in a histrionic game, when this might encourage them to jump ship. It's unnecessary and counterproductive.

If someone says that they disagree with something and feel strongly enough to leave, then there are two possible responses:

A Where The Wild Things style, “Oh please don’t go, we’ll eat you up, we love you so”, coupled with frantic attempts to fix whatever it is.

Or to call their bluff, “To those who want to leave: just go. See if it suits you better. If it doesn't, just come back. No harm, no foul”. No one called a bluff quite like Erin. [Two face]

The Ship has changed a lot over the years. But all of that change has come through thoughtful, reasoned argument rather than threats to leave. All Of It.

Tubbs

[ 02. July 2013, 11:16: Message edited by: Tubbs ]

Posted by Yorick (# 12169) on :

Yes, I get that, really I do. And I one hundred percent agree! What I find leaves an unpleasant taste in my mouth is when RooK doesn't leave it there, but suffixes his contempt for those who admit their flouncy inclination and dismisses it as histrionic gamesmanship. Maybe he's right, and maybe not, but given his position as Admin and therefore a figurehead of the place, it's easy to imagine it having an undesirable effect on those who feel wobbly. In his post I think he shouldn't have indulged himself with his final paragraph. The rest was fine with me, as is everything else people have added on this thread. FWIW.

Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :

quote:
RooK: There is more to it. It is also allowable to ignore stupid Hell threads, even ones pointed at you specifically.

Thank you for your answer.

But suppose that you're one of the Shipmates that doesn't want his/her sex life being discussed on the Ship, but someone starts a thread in Hell that does so anyway. Ignoring the thread doesn't make the problem go away: your sex life is still being discussed.

Posted by Tubbs (# 440) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
Yes, I get that, really I do. And I one hundred percent agree! What I find leaves an unpleasant taste in my mouth is when RooK doesn't leave it there, but suffixes his contempt for those who admit their flouncy inclination and dismisses it as histrionic gamesmanship. Maybe he's right, and maybe not, but given his position as Admin and therefore a figurehead of the place, it's easy to imagine it having an undesirable effect on those who feel wobbly. In his post I think he shouldn't have indulged himself with his final paragraph. The rest was fine with me, as is everything else people have added on this thread. FWIW.

Comes down to Hot Buttons ... Your hot button is the Admins telling people to leave. One of the Admin's hot buttons is people telling us that they'll leave if the Ship doesn't do x or y ...

Tubbs

Posted by Yorick (# 12169) on :

I can see that. Yep.

Thanks for the space to say my thing. Pax.

Posted by RooK (# 1852) on :

quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
But suppose that you're one of the Shipmates that doesn't want his/her sex life being discussed on the Ship, but someone starts a thread in Hell that does so anyway. Ignoring the thread doesn't make the problem go away: your sex life is still being discussed.

Been there, have enough t-shirts to clothe leviathan. People will discuss what they want to discuss. Discussing it with them doesn't exactly reduce the effect, in my experience. And we're not going to censor people in Hell, as long as they keep out of legal issues and it isn't part of a larger systemic Commandment-1 issue.

Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :

quote:
RooK: And we're not going to censor people in Hell, as long as they keep out of legal issues and it isn't part of a larger systemic Commandment-1 issue.

What about people who don't want to venture in Hell much? The guidelines of Hell are clear: if you post here you put on a bull's eye on yourself, if you can't stand the heat stay out of the kitchen etc. etc.

The message is: if you don't want to be spoken about you in this way, then stay out. And I guess there are a number of Shipmates who avoid Hell because of this.

What if I would start a thread in Hell out of the blue about one of those Shipmates, titled "FluffyBunnyShipmate X is playing with herself too much?" Yes, the other Hellions would probably shread me to pieces, but for FluffyBunnyShipmate X the damage would already be done: her sex life has been put out into the open on the internet, even if she stayed out of Hell.

Posted by Sarkycow (# 1012) on :

LeRoc - the clear and official answer appears to be precisely nothing will be done officially about it. In Hell, providing you steer clear of legal issues, suicide, and reasoned discussion you can post whatever you want, and the hosts probably won't do anything about it officially.

That's what shipmates are for.

So if you wandered down to Hell and posted a thread about Motherboard's sex life (I say Motherboard cos I haven't seen her in Hell recently [Big Grin]

), then the hosts would do nothing official about it. I imagine there would be a queue of denizens ready to:

Riff about your sex life instead
Tell you to take your medication or ask where you left your brain cos Motherboard has done nothing to deserve this
Simply rip you to shreds creatively discussing your (lack of) intellect, sex life, ability to eat and breathe at the same time, etc.

Some people posting as denizens may even be hosts or admins. They are shipmates too.

Some passing person with the power may even change your thread title if they found a sufficiently amusing alternative.

This is what's known as the Ship being self correcting.

[ETA I doubt anyone would (unless playing games) start such a thread about someone who doesn't venture into Hell. Sine took a comment in Hell, made by a shipmate who posts a lot in Hell, and gave it its own Hell thread.]

[ 02. July 2013, 15:43: Message edited by: Sarkycow ]

Posted by QLib (# 43) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
What I find leaves an unpleasant taste in my mouth is when RooK doesn't leave it there, but suffixes his contempt for those who admit their flouncy inclination and dismisses it as histrionic gamesmanship. Maybe he's right, and maybe not, but given his position as Admin and therefore a figurehead of the place, it's easy to imagine it having an undesirable effect on those who feel wobbly.

But is probably pretty much what Erin would have said, too - even though, yes, she was passionate about open communication. I don't think anybody likes established shipmates leaving, but H&As have generally had a pretty low tolerance of threats to leave. Those two things aren't incompatible, you know.

I'm guessing that the best protection against having speculation on your sex life posted in Hell is to use your real name - because then any speculation would probably be libellous.

Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :

Thank you Sarkycow for your answer.

quote:
Sarkycow: This is what's known as the Ship being self correcting.

I agree with you that the Ship is very good in self-correcting, and it is one of the reasons I like to come here.

The way I see it, the self-correction works in this way: if I would start a thread about FluffyBunnyShipmate X's sex life in Hell, plenty of people would fall all over me, and I would very probably (and deservedly) loose the argument in a big way.

That's great, but that's not the point. The point isn't about winning or losing an argument. It's about things being posted about your sex life, real or imagined, without your consent, and these things will be preserved for all eternity in the Ship's archives, and in plenty of search engines on teh Internetz.

I guess what it seems to come down to is this: By signing on to the Ship, we accept that discussions may be started about any aspect of our private lives, even without our consent, and these discussions will be on the internet for everyone to see, and will be preserved for the future.

Is it like this? Do all people who sign up to the Ship know this? At least it gives a very strong reason to use a nick on the Ship, and not your real name.

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :

For the record, LeRoc, something very, very close to the scenario you are describing happened to me. I'll spare you. Believe me, I know how tough it can be to suck shit like that up.

Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :

The thing is, nobody knows anything about my sex life other than the fact that I'm married (which carries some implications about one's sex life, but that's all). So anything anybody posted here would just be slagging, and no more likely to be accurate than placing insults on a cork board and throwing a Montblanc at them. So even if everybody in the world can see them, what of it? Only a mouth-breathing horsewanker would take it seriously, and why would I want to work for somebody like that anyway?

Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :

quote:
mousethief: The thing is, nobody knows anything about my sex life other than the fact that I'm married (which carries some implications about one's sex life, but that's all).

But of course it would be quite possible to just invent things about your sex life. And you never know, we might hit bullseye and what we say might be true. Things can even happen by accident (which happened a bit in Orfeo's case).

Just an example. What if there was a Shipmate who didn't want anything being discussed about the relationship with his/her father on the Ship, for various reasons. Suppose this person got in a heated general discussion about the Ten Commandments (the Bible ones, not the Ship ones) in Purgatory, and someone would call him/her to Hell, taking the Sixth Commandment as an example and making some juicy remarks about it. I personally feel that if that person would say "I don't want to my relationship with my parents to be discussed", at the very least we should cut it out and switch to another example right there.

I also have some aspects of my personal life (not necessarily my sex life) that I don't want to be discussed on the Ship. What could I do if this would happen, even by accident?

Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :

(I'm sorry, 'Honour thy father and thy mother' is the Fourth or Fifth Commandment, depending on your tradition. I lost count there somewhere.)

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :

quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
(I'm sorry, 'Honour thy father and thy mother' is the Fourth or Fifth Commandment, depending on your tradition. I lost count there somewhere.)

(Sorry, guys, but y'all must know by now.)

In AS , in a weak moment, I discussed some bombastic behavior on the part of my mother, who has always has a sharp tongue it is becoming master-class in her old age. Later I was arguing in Hell, and apropos to nothing on the thread, the stuff I brought up in AS was entered into discussion on the thread.

I didn't bother to protest, but I think one other Shipmate did, and pretty much got the answer you are getting.

It cuts both ways-- I have to be careful about what I post, and I have learned to be a big girl and suck it if I get weird responses based on something personal I have posted, therefore if I do, I do it boldly. (As Mousethief says,there are only about a half dozen people on the Ship who have gotten to know me enough for me to take their judgement under serious consideration)

But people delivering "gotchas" based on very personal info risk losing the respect of other Shipmates, or whatever rapport they may have built up with the person in question.

In both cases, you have to count the cost.

[ 02. July 2013, 21:39: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]

Posted by Organ Builder (# 12478) on :

In this respect, LeRoc, it seems to me the Ship is very much like a real neighborhood. If the neighbors want to gossip about some aspect of your personal life, there is not much you can do about it except hope your friends will defend you.

Just as in real life, that changes only if something crosses over into slander or libel.

Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :

quote:
Organ Builder: In this respect, LeRoc, it seems to me the Ship is very much like a real neighborhood. If the neighbors want to gossip about some aspect of your personal life, there is not much you can do about it except hope your friends will defend you.

To make the analogy more fitting, the Ship would be like a neighbourhood where the neighbours will gossip about you and publish all those gossips in a newspaper for anyone to read. My questions are about the last bit.

Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Organ Builder:
Just as in real life, that changes only if something crosses over into slander or libel.

Which as far as I'm aware is pretty much never if you're using a screen name and not revealing your true identity.

Posted by RooK (# 1852) on :

quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
the Ship would be like a neighbourhood where the neighbours will gossip about you and publish all those gossips in a newspaper for anyone to read. My questions are about the last bit.

We get that; we really do. And our answer still stands.

Is there any further clarification that you might like?

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Sarkycow:
Some passing person with the power may even change your thread title if they found a sufficiently amusing alternative.

I am SO remembering this option.

Posted by QLib (# 43) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
In AS, in a weak moment, I discussed some bombastic behavior on the part of my mother, who has always has a sharp tongue it is becoming master-class in her old age. Later I was arguing in Hell, and apropos to nothing on the thread, the stuff I brought up in AS was entered into discussion on the thread.

I didn't bother to protest, but I think one other Shipmate did, and pretty much got the answer you are getting.

I rather think we have had at least one case where something that someone said in All Saints was flung in their face in Hell soon afterwards, and I rather think the offender was first roasted by all and sundry and then suspended. Do I misremember? if anyone cares to PM me, I could name the victim but not the perp.

Difficult boundary to police, because plenty of people post prolifically and share personal things on a variety of boards, so as time passes people might forget what was said where, but IMHO it's out of order to fling stuff fresh from All Saints at people in Hell. Unless someone's being a total and utter pain in the ass in AS, of course.

Posted by goperryrevs (# 13504) on :

quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
What about people who don't want to venture in Hell much? The guidelines of Hell are clear: if you post here you put on a bull's eye on yourself, if you can't stand the heat stay out of the kitchen etc. etc.

One problem with this is that someone can be a total asshole on main boards but refuse to 'do hell'. Instead, they just continue to be assholes on every other damn board. I can't think of a recent example, and they'd usually ended up being banned in the end, but in the meantime, when any confrontation is met with a "I can't hear you lalalalala", it can be quite frustrating, and any resulting hell thread has the potential of getting quite fiery, understandlbly IMO.

I don't think it's easy to come up with any rules (other than the already exisitng "don't be an asshole") to combat the problem you've highlighted, so it does seem that the best option is for the community to be self-correcting.

Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :

quote:
RooK: We get that; we really do. And our answer still stands.

Is there any further clarification that you might like?

For the moment no. But I'd just like to register here that I'm not entirely comfortable with this.

Like I said before on this thread, there is an aspect of my private life that I don't want to be discussed here. Not on purpose and not by accident. Not even if ten of the most experienced Hellhounds on the Ship come to my defence. It's an aspect of my private life that I want to keep separate from the Ship (and I doubt very much that I'm the only one). To the question "Am I allowed to do that?" you just answered "No."

I also want to make clear that "If you don't want this aspect of your private life to be discussed on the Ship, then don't start talking about it" isn't a solution here. What happened with the thread about Orfeo is a clear example of this: he didn't start to talk about his sex life, but people discussed it anyway.

I already expect you to give me the "If you don't like it here, you can always leave" answer, but I just want to spell out what that means.

It comes down to: "If you're not prepared for the possibility of all aspects of your private life to be discussed openly on the Ship, even against your wishes, then you can always leave."

Is this what we want?

Posted by RooK (# 1852) on :

quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
It comes down to: "If you're not prepared for the possibility of all aspects of your private life to be discussed openly on the Ship, even against your wishes, then you can always leave."

Is this what we want?

Yes. Because it's the least-bad alternative. I see what you're uncomfortable with as a fundamental aspect of online existence. And to struggle against the essential structure of the internet I think would mean choking the life out of the ship, and burning out its volunteer Crew.

Freedom has an ugly side, but not as ugly as losing that freedom.

Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :

quote:
RooK: Yes.

Just out of curiosity, I would be interested to know what (non-Admin) Shipmates think about this too. Are all Shipmates prepared for the possibility of all aspects of their private lives being discussed openly on the Ship, even against their wishes?

Posted by RuthW (# 13) on :

People can't discuss things they don't know about. They can make shit up, sure, but that's fiction. If you don't want people discussing a particular aspect of your life, don't post about it on the boards.

Posted by Jonah the Whale (# 1244) on :

quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
Just out of curiosity, I would be interested to know what (non-Admin) Shipmates think about this too. Are all Shipmates prepared for the possibility of all aspects of their private lives being discussed openly on the Ship, even against their wishes?

I think Ruth answers this quite well. Think twice before you post anything personal, and then think a third time, take a day to consider the wisdom of saying it if need be.

Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :

quote:
RuthW: People can't discuss things they don't know about. They can make shit up, sure, but that's fiction. If you don't want people discussing a particular aspect of your life, don't post about it on the boards.

Tell that to Orfeo: he didn't post about his sex life (at least not in this occasion), yet people started discussing about it.

And made-up shit can hurt too. To give an example, supposed that someone suffered from abuse from his/her father in the past. I can imagine that (s)he wouldn't be too happy about a random thread in Hell saying "Person X is a dickhead who treats his/her parents badly", which could arise from something as simple as a discussion about Commandment Five from the Bible. If I were in this position, I'd just want it to stop, no matter how many people defended me.

If I were in this position, maybe I wouldn't even have to say "I don't want to discuss my relationship with my parents because I've been abused in the past" on the thread. What I would like, is the possibility to write a PM to a Host or Admin, saying that I don't want this discussion to happen, for personal reasons.

Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :

(The last paragraph should start with "If I were in this position, maybe I wouldn't even want to say...")

Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on :

quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
If I were in this position, maybe I wouldn't even have to say "I don't want to discuss my relationship with my parents because I've been abused in the past" on the thread. What I would like, is the possibility to write a PM to a Host or Admin, saying that I don't want this discussion to happen, for personal reasons.

How exactly are the H&A to put a stop to such discussion without making it obvious to everybody on the Ship that you have parent issues? Just move the thread to the Secret Archive without telling anybody else why?

Posted by Firenze (# 619) on :

But would not the requested Hostly intervention then effectively be the disclosure you're trying to avoid?

(X-post with Marvin)

[ 03. July 2013, 16:29: Message edited by: Firenze ]

Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :

quote:
Marvin the Martian: How exactly are the H&A to put a stop to such discussion without making it obvious to everybody on the Ship that you have parent issues? Just move the thread to the Secret Archive without telling anybody else why?

I realize and accept that there isn't an easy solution to this. My memory may be faulty, but in my 11 years on the Ship I think I have seen occasions where a Hell thread inadvertently hit too close to home, and was closed by a Host on request of a participant. Maybe it was even deleted (this was in the days before Oblivion.)

Of course, this doesn't completely take away the problem. As soon as a thread is closed there will be someone jammering in the Styx "Where did it go?" And it doesn't take away the problem of internet archives either.

I guess any solution would be a bit 'dirty' and incomplete. But at least it would be some kind of recognition by the Ship that some things can go too far.

When I signed up to the Ship, I accepted that my opinions will be challenged here, sometimes in a rough way. I accepted the possibility that I might be called to Hell (they haven't so far) and that people will call me nasty names there and say all kinds of stuff about me.

That's ok, but there are some limits somewhere. And I suspect that most people around here have some limit or another.

I accept that there isn't a 100% perfect solution to this, but I'm not sure if "You should just have to live with it" is a satisfactory solution either.

What I would propose is: if there is a thread (especially in Hell) that inadvertently hits too close to home, a Shipmate should have the possibility to PM a Host or Admin, and discuss what would be the best solution in this case.

Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on :

quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
My memory may be faulty, but in my 11 years on the Ship I think I have seen occasions where a Hell thread inadvertently hit too close to home, and was closed by a Host on request of a participant. Maybe it was even deleted (this was in the days before Oblivion.)

I can only remember one thread that was shifted to the Secret Archive for this sort of thing, and that was for a REALLY nasty set of comments about a poster that also got the commenter banned.

And yes, I mean CONSIDERABLY nastier than merely speculating on how many times they might have got laid in the last week or so. Stuff that not a single person on the boards would just laugh off if it was said about them. We're talking a really extreme case, here - and as the saying goes, extreme cases make bad law.

And if I recall correctly, even in that case there was a Styx thread to explain why the thread wasn't there any more. Soviet-style "disappearings" don't happen easily round here.

Posted by Hedgehog (# 14125) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
Lamb Chopped, I hope you don't leave. I've especially valued your posts in Kerygmania and look forward to more.

Just have to say that this goes for me too, LC. Multiplied by a factor of twelve.

Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :

quote:
Marvin the Martian: I can only remember one thread that was shifted to the Secret Archive for this sort of thing, and that was for a REALLY nasty set of comments about a poster that also got the commenter banned.

Alright, and thank you for admitting that there are limits somewhere.

quote:
Marvin the Martian: We're talking a really extreme case, here - and as the saying goes, extreme cases make bad law.

Ok, I agree that any such solutions or interventions should be limited to extreme cases. But I'm glad to know that the possibility does exist.

quote:
Marvin the Martian: Soviet-style "disappearings" don't happen easily round here.

Amateurs.

Posted by Autenrieth Road (# 10509) on :

quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
What I would propose is: if there is a thread (especially in Hell) that inadvertently hits too close to home, a Shipmate should have the possibility to PM a Host or Admin, and discuss what would be the best solution in this case.

A Shipmate already has this possibility. It sounds like what you want is something more: that the overwhelming likelihood not be that the Host or Admin says "best solution is that thread stays."

Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :

quote:
Autenrieth Road: It sounds like what you want is something more: that the overwhelming likelihood not be that the Host or Admin says "best solution is that thread stays."

No, that's not what I'm asking for.

Posted by Autenrieth Road (# 10509) on :

What are you asking for then? Because a Shipmate can already PM a Host or Admin to ask about a thread.

Posted by QLib (# 43) on :

You're asking for the impossible, Le Roc. As soon as you publicly tell people not to talk about stuff, they will talk about it, and there is no mechanism here for the equivalent of a super-injunction (you're not allowed to say you're not allowed to talk about this).

There are laws of human behaviour in operation here. Let me give you an example. I used to work at a special school. One term, as boy X was due to satrt, the head called us all together and said:I want to make one thing clear. X's father is his father, and there is no argument about that.
So, of course, it was immediately obvious that there was an argument about it. And, almost inevitably, it later emerged that X's father wasn't his father.

Secondly, if a mechnaism for effectively silencing speculation existed, it would be ridiculously unfair. Shipmate Y emails a host and says: "I don't want anyone talking about my grandparents, because my grandfather abused me." How does the host know this is true? Maybe Y is just making shit up to be tiresome. In real life, adults don't get to go to someone else to help people stay off topics that press their buttons.

For all the talk about schoolyard bullies here, you're not in a school yard. If you just walk away, feigning disinterest, when a hot button topic springs up out of nowhere, no one is going to trip you up, or push you around, or knock you down and steal your lunch money.

Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on :

quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:

quote:
Marvin the Martian: We're talking a really extreme case, here - and as the saying goes, extreme cases make bad law.
Ok, I agree that any such solutions or interventions should be limited to extreme cases. But I'm glad to know that the possibility does exist.

It's one of the reasons Commandment 1 was written. But the flipside of the possibility existing is that, for obvious reasons, what constitutes an extreme case is the Admins' call, not the offended Shipmate's. And where there's any doubt we're almost certainly going to err on the side of not deleting posts/threads.

Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :

quote:
Autenrieth Road: What are you asking for then? Because a Shipmate can already PM a Host or Admin to ask about a thread.

Yes, but the tone on the first page of this thread was very much "We don't want to censure anyone in Hell, people should just defend themselves or suck it up etc. etc." which seemed to exclude any possibility of a solution in the form of a thread closing or something similar.

What I'm asking for is the possibility to PM a Host and discuss a solution, and that closing/deleting the thread might be a solution under consideration in extreme cases. The first page of this thread didn't make clear that this solution existed.

Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on :

quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:

quote:
Marvin the Martian: Soviet-style "disappearings" don't happen easily round here.
Amateurs.

To quote one of my favourite webcomics: "What kind of evil overlord are you going to be, anyway?" "Apparently a better one than I'd thought..."

Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :

quote:
Marvin the Martian: It's one of the reasons Commandment 1 was written. But the flipside of the possibility existing is that, for obvious reasons, what constitutes an extreme case is the Admins' call, not the offended Shipmate's. And where there's any doubt we're almost certainly going to err on the side of not deleting posts/threads.

I haven't been in the situation yet (and I hope I never will), but I guess that for the moment I can live with that.

Posted by Autenrieth Road (# 10509) on :

quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:

quote:
Autenrieth Road: What are you asking for then? Because a Shipmate can already PM a Host or Admin to ask about a thread.
Yes, but the tone on the first page of this thread was very much "We don't want to censure anyone in Hell, people should just defend themselves or suck it up etc. etc." which seemed to exclude any possibility of a solution in the form of a thread closing or something similar.

What I'm asking for is the possibility to PM a Host and discuss a solution, and that closing/deleting the thread might be a solution under consideration in extreme cases. The first page of this thread didn't make clear that this solution existed.

Which is what I said, although in fewer words: you want the result of the PM and the attitude of the Host/Admin to be something other than a repetition of the usual result that the thread stays open and the usual expression that this is the way it's going to be, at least almost always.

[ETA: cross-posted.... rereading the intervening posts, I see that the nuance is getting the acknowledgement that extreme cases might exist where the results might be different. Fair enough.]

[ 03. July 2013, 17:08: Message edited by: Autenrieth Road ]

Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :

quote:
Autenrieth Road: [ETA: cross-posted.... rereading the intervening posts, I see that the nuance is getting the acknowledgement that extreme cases might exist where the results might be different. Fair enough.]

Ok, it isn't always easies to get the nuances through (TBH I think this is what fuels a lot of discussions on the Ship).

Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :

quote:
QLib: Shipmate Y emails a host and says: "I don't want anyone talking about my grandparents, because my grandfather abused me." How does the host know this is true?

Another example. Suppose a Shipmate has under-age children. (S)he gets involved in a discussion in Purg about child-rearing that gets a bit heated. The opponent calls him/her to Hell, and composes an opening post saying a lot of nasty things not only about the callee (which is allowed in Hell) but also about his/her children.

This counts as off-limits to me. I imagine that Commandment I would cover this, but could it lead to closing/deleting of the thread?

Posted by Alan Cresswell (# 31) on :

We don't have a Big Book of Rules that covers every eventuality. Hosts and Admins will judge according to the particular specifics of a thread. The H&As may, or may not, consider that a line has been crossed. Actions, in the event of a line being crossed, range from a acerbic, barbed witty "knock it off" semi-official nudge back to the right side of the line to someone being banned and the thread whipped off to the Secret Archive.

I, and no one else, can predict in advance what that judgement will be. Because, until those posts are out there with all the circumstantial background the judgement can't be made.

Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :

Ok, I can live with that.

Posted by Moo (# 107) on :

quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:

quote:
RuthW: People can't discuss things they don't know about. They can make shit up, sure, but that's fiction. If you don't want people discussing a particular aspect of your life, don't post about it on the boards.
Tell that to Orfeo: he didn't post about his sex life (at least not in this occasion), yet people started discussing about it.

Orfeo did not post about his sex life on this occasion, but he had on other occasions. Once you mention some aspect of your life, it's out there.

Moo

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :

I can't recall specifically when I disabused people of the notion I was a eunuch...

Posted by RuthW (# 13) on :

What I mean is that the thread called "orfeo's Sad Little Sex Life" was a joke thread that didn't actually discuss orfeo's sex life until orfeo took it seriously and gave out information about his sex life.

Posted by Leorning Cniht (# 17564) on :

quote:
Originally posted by QLib:
In real life, adults don't get to go to someone else to help people stay off topics that press their buttons.

Well, that depends, doesn't it. In real life, adults do require their employers to ensure that other employees don't go in particular directions (sexual harassment etc.).

Also in real life, if a guest in my house is upsetting another guest, I can and will tell him to knock it off or leave.

Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :

Online communities go through phases. Sometimes, it's helpful to keep that in mind.

A couple of resources:

--Natural Life Cycle of Mailing Lists, by Kat Nagel. This is posted as part of a larger work on cyber-psychology. Also check out the link at the bottom of the page to related light bulb jokes!
.

-- Community Life Cycle, rooted in the experience of the Usenet community.

Some communities find it helpful to periodically dredge up reminders like these. FWIW. YMMV.

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