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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: The Trinity Lottery
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tomb
Shipmate
# 174
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Posted
Okay, boys and girls and heresy-sniffers of all ages. It's that time of year again! Time to play THE TRINITY LOTTERY!
When you attend church this weekend, note every time your priest or pastor, in trying to explain the Most Holy Trinity, says something that is heretical.
Give yourself a point for each different heresy, or for the same heresy explained in a different way. Note: you only get one point per heresy, no matter how many times your pastor says it.
If the heresy is embedded in an extended metaphor, do your best to unpack it and note each different heresy in the metaphor. Give yourself a bonus point if the metaphor is mixed.
BONUS POINTS:
If the cleric is a cathedral dean, abbot, prior, or diocesan bishop, give yourself one bonus point.
If the cleric is a metropolitan archbishop or cardinal, give yourself two bonus points (excluding the Presiding Bishop of the US Episcopal Church, in which case do not award yourself any bonus points)
If the cleric mentions the Athanasian Creed (Quiqunque Vult), give yourself one bonus point.
If the cleric quotes from the Athanasian Creed and nobody in the congregation laughs, give yourself two bonus points. If the congregation laughs, do not award yourself any bonus points.
If the cleric substitutes the Athanasian Creed for either the Apostles' or The Niceno–Constantinopolitan Creed, and you attend a CofE or other English liturgical church, give yourself three points. If you attend an American Church, give yourself five.
Give yourself an extra point if the cleric references T.S. Eliot's Four Quartets, and two if he/she references Dante's Paradisio--whether the reference is a heretical or not, because in the case of Eliot, who knows? and in the case of Dante, who knew that it was read?
EXCLUSIONS:
This contest is open only to people attending churches in the line of western Christian churches, including protestant congregations. For instance, it is not open to people attending Unitarian or LDS congregations, etc. And since Trinity for the Orthodox falls much later, they are excluded because their holiday falls outside of the time limits of this contest.
For the purpose of this contest, alternative formulations of the Trinitarian doxology (e.g. "Creator, Redeemer, Sanctifier" instead of "Father, Son, and Holy Spirit") will not be counted.
For the purpose of this contest, heresies contained in hymns and choir anthems--though they are legion--will not be counted.
This contest is open only to people (whether lay or ordained) attending a service as congregants; it is not open to people serving a liturgical function.
The contestant must be physically present during the service and tally his or her points before the service ends. YouTube and other video transmissions are excluded.
It the case of a quarrel regarding whether a particular teaching is heretical, the question will be submitted to a panel of three of my friends--one Catholic, one protestant, and one Russian Orthodox.
PRIZES:
The Grand Prize is one free night during a multiple-night stay at the High Mountain Lodge in Winter Park, Colorado.
The person who cites the most egregious/weird-a$$ heresy will also gain a free night during a multiple0night stay at the High Mountain Lodge.
DEADLINE FOR SUBMISSIONS: 10:00 p.m. (2200) Mountain Daylight Time (GMT -6) on Wednesday after Trinity Sunday.
This contest will be cross-posted on the Ship of Fools Facebook page as well as here.
Posts: 5039 | From: Denver, Colorado | Registered: May 2001
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Mamacita
Lakefront liberal
# 3659
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Posted
A refresher course on heresies, brought to you by Saint Patrick. Srsly.
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Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world’s grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.
Posts: 20761 | From: where the purple line ends | Registered: Dec 2002
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
tomb: When you attend church this weekend, note every time your priest or pastor, in trying to explain the Most Holy Trinity, says something that is heretical.
Darn, I wish you had done this when I was at my church in the Netherlands. We don't have a priest or pastor ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Ariston
Insane Unicorn
# 10894
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Posted
Actually, though this might be a bit on the Purgatorial side (but when has that stopped anyone around here?), couldn't Creator/Redeemer/Sanctifier be considered a very minor sort of heresy, since, according to Thomas Aquinas, it is the second person of the Trinity who is responsible for the act of creation?
Perhaps minor Quibblesies like this could be considered tiebreakers?
So sad to be working on Sunday, even though I know many American churches (likely including my own) won't be talking about the Trinity—it's the Sunday before Memorial Day, so we'll get some sort of patriotic sermon instead.
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“Therefore, let it be explained that nowhere are the proprieties quite so strictly enforced as in men’s colleges that invite young women guests, especially over-night visitors in the fraternity houses.” Emily Post, 1937.
Posts: 6849 | From: The People's Republic of Balcones | Registered: Jan 2006
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Piglet
Islander
# 11803
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by tomb:
... If the cleric substitutes the Athanasian Creed for either the Apostles' or The Niceno–Constantinopolitan Creed ... give yourself three points. If you attend an American Church, give yourself five ...
Does "American" in this context include the Anglican Church of Canada?
At the behest of the Organist (who is Always Right*), we're going to sing the Athanasian Creed (to Anglican chant) in place of the Apostles' Creed at Choral Evensong on Sunday.
Does that give us any bonus points, especially if we remember where we are in the responses afterwards? ![[Devil]](graemlins/devil.gif)
* I have to say that, as I'm his wife. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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I may not be on an island any more, but I'm still an islander.
alto n a soprano who can read music
Posts: 20272 | From: Fredericton, NB, on a rather larger piece of rock | Registered: Sep 2006
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
What if the preacher is incomprehensible? I can't count heresies if I can't tell what the hell he means to say. (Is that God's safety device?)
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Ariston
Insane Unicorn
# 10894
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Posted
I'm of the opinion of, if in reasonable doubt, count it. There will be enough questionable statements made everywhere that we, the Disassociated Is Outrage Brigade, ought to be able to have our fun.
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“Therefore, let it be explained that nowhere are the proprieties quite so strictly enforced as in men’s colleges that invite young women guests, especially over-night visitors in the fraternity houses.” Emily Post, 1937.
Posts: 6849 | From: The People's Republic of Balcones | Registered: Jan 2006
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Poppy
Ship's dancing cat
# 2000
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Posted
There have to be bonus points for dance as circle dance has been such a popular metaphor in the last few years.
Any preacher brave enough to get their congo to dance or to have a go at body prayer may need to know if there are bonus points to be had here?
Just saying....
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At the still point of the turning world - there the dance is...
Posts: 1406 | From: mostly on the edge | Registered: Dec 2001
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The Rogue
Shipmate
# 2275
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Posted
You mean get the congo to conga?
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If everyone starts thinking outside the box does outside the box come back inside?
Posts: 2507 | From: Toton | Registered: Feb 2002
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Poppy
Ship's dancing cat
# 2000
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Posted
Could do or a chachachaaaaaa.
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At the still point of the turning world - there the dance is...
Posts: 1406 | From: mostly on the edge | Registered: Dec 2001
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
Does being in the choir constitute a liturgical function?
Does a lay reader count as a priest or pastor?
I have a bit of a blind spot concerning the verb 'substitute' - do you mean we get points if we say the Athanasian Creed, or if we don't?
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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AndyB
Shipmate
# 10186
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Posted
Do you subtract points if all nine verses of St Patrick's breastplate is sung?
(It won't be in my church. I'd love to do it, but our lot don't know it so I don't choose it!)
Posts: 149 | From: Belfast | Registered: Aug 2005
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Piglet
Islander
# 11803
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Posted
AndyB, bearing in mind your location, how can your congregation possibly not know Paddy's Bra? I think our hymn-book has eight verses and yes, we'll be singing all of them. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Do we gain or lose points if we get the apple story for the children's address - the one that explains how the skin, flesh and core are all parts of the apple, but are not actually all apples? We usually get it if the Dean's doing the kids' address, but he's going to be away, so we could end up getting anything.
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I may not be on an island any more, but I'm still an islander.
alto n a soprano who can read music
Posts: 20272 | From: Fredericton, NB, on a rather larger piece of rock | Registered: Sep 2006
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
Beware of eggs appearing - especially if they are not hard-boiled. (Scrambled eggs would, of course, provide an interesting theological point: "Wholly and Undivided", anyone?)
On the other hand, you probably ought to steer clear of all hard-boiled preachers purveying them.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
I'll be travelling into the rainforest on Sunday. If I see a monkey spouting the wrong view about the Trinity, you'll be the first to know
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
I notice it's the two women readers tasked with the Trinity Sermons this Sunday (he who gets to draw up the rota has conveniently made it so) - ah well, quite appropriate really, everyone knows women are the only creatures able to do three things at once.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
I think I score one miserly point, for the priest name-checking the Athanasian creed, but there was no quoting, reciting or singing of it.
Despite the fact that this is Memorial Day weekend, patriotism scarcely got a look-in at our TEC shack. Well, OK - we did sing "America the Beautiful" as one of the hymns, and we prayed especially for dead veterans during the intercessions, and "Eternal Father, strong to save" is dual-use
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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Lucia
Looking for light
# 15201
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Posted
I was hoping to try and play but sadly the Trinity only got one brief mention from the Bishop and the rest of the service was swamped by Mother's Day! ![[Eek!]](eek.gif) (Today is Mother's Day here in Tunisia!)
Posts: 1075 | From: Nigh golden stone and spires | Registered: Oct 2009
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Piglet
Islander
# 11803
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Posted
I'm not sure how many points I'm going to gain (or lose) - I'm hoping that Tomb will help me out with the maths:
Choral Eucharist:
St. Patrick's Breastplate in procession. There are actually 7 verses in our hymn-book - I had counted v.6 as two but it isn't - and we sang them all
Children's address about St. Patrick's shamrock demonstration of the Trinity (with clover - you can't get shamrocks here)
Sermon about the Trinity with references to Darwinism and space (microcosm, mesocosm and macrocosm)
Postlude: "St. Anne" fugue by Bach, which has Trinity connotations (three flats in the key-signature, triple-three-beat bars, fugue divided into three sections)
Choral Evensong:
Athanasian Creed (sung to Anglican Chant) instead of Apostles' Creed
Sermon about the Trinity citing the doctrines propounded by St. Athanasius and St. Nicholas at the Council of Nicaea
Another postlude in triple-triple (9/8) time: Siciliano for a High Ceremony by Howells
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I may not be on an island any more, but I'm still an islander.
alto n a soprano who can read music
Posts: 20272 | From: Fredericton, NB, on a rather larger piece of rock | Registered: Sep 2006
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
I get a miserly five, for a responsive reading of the Athanasian Creed, half congregation against half congregation. In an American church. Which is unfairly generous, as I've never been in an LCMS church that DIDN'T have the whole thing every Trinity Sunday.
Other than that, I can't recall what the preacher said, which is sad but rather expected.
Do I get any points for having to explain the whole thing to an enquiring twelve year old? I don't think (I hope) I managed any heresies of my own...
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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tomb
Shipmate
# 174
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Posted
Oh.My.Goodness.
Y'all are so far beyond what I experienced. Rector said "Trinity not one of those foundational beliefs necessary for salvation (##@)(*#$^@ head exploding)." Then he used St. Augustine's metaphor of the tree to explain the Trinity. Must invite him to dinner and gently point out that christological metaphors don't translate well to Trinitarian theology.
I only scored three points. 1 for outright denial of the Trinity; 1 for a monological half-assed attempt to explain the "three-in-one and one-in-three" and a third for mis-quoting St. Augustine.
I am gobsmacked/stunned that there are places that still use the Athanasian Creed--and chant it to Anglican tones.
Ariston, you are absolutely correct about the heretical nature of Creator/Redeemer/Sanctifier. That is why I omitted it from the contest. It's just too damn difficult to explain to people that the nature of the Trinity isn't just about the agency of each of the Three Persons, but also how they interpenetrate.
BTW: anybody (excluding Orthodox) who excluded the filioque at the Creed? Give yourself an extra point.
Piglet, sorry, but "American" doesn't include the Anglican Church in Canada. From my limited experience, the ACC is more Anglican than the CofE. But damn, you're SINGING the Athanasian creed? Points off for doing it at Evensong instead of at Mass, but still.... Damn.
And sorry, Poppy and the rest of you dancers, no points for Circle Dances or any other sort of "Liturgical Movement." This contest is about bad theology, not bad taste.
Piglet, I think you are certainly in contention for winning. It never would have occurred to me to consider the St. Anne fugue in the context of the Trinity, but now that you mention it....
Regarding St. Patrick's Breastplate: doesn't it just warm the cockles of your heart (so to speak) that this obscure hymn has the power to scare the sh*t out of non-Anglicans? You have to be a geologist to appreciate just how inaccurate the verse "around the old eternal rocks" is.
Two bonus points if you sang the "wizard" verse from the venerable English Hymnal; bonus point if the organist counted the duple rhythm for the two verses of Deidre properly. Bonus point if you know if you sang Deirdre properly or not.
Lamb Chopped: sorry, no extra points. But give yourself one if you explain to your offspring, upon inquiry, that "it's a mystery" and they believe you.
Posts: 5039 | From: Denver, Colorado | Registered: May 2001
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by piglet:
Does "American" in this context include the Anglican Church of Canada?
It certainly does not in this life or in any other eternal version. For this heresy, surely you will awarded 12 bjillion points and be thrown down the mountain, you You YOU!
Re the contest: I am too stupid and heretical myself, thus could not detect anything of significance in the heresy way. I get a zero, and am out of the running.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Piglet
Islander
# 11803
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
quote:
Originally posted by piglet:
Does "American" in this context include the Anglican Church of Canada?
It certainly does not in this life or in any other eternal version. For this heresy, surely you will awarded 12 bjillion points and be thrown down the mountain ...
Sorry, NP - no offence (or heresy) intended; I was thinking rather more geographically than liturgically.
I think we got the duplet right in Deirdre - I assume it's covered by the aforementioned Organist's Infallibility ...
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I may not be on an island any more, but I'm still an islander.
alto n a soprano who can read music
Posts: 20272 | From: Fredericton, NB, on a rather larger piece of rock | Registered: Sep 2006
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by piglet:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
quote:
Originally posted by piglet:
Does "American" in this context include the Anglican Church of Canada?
It certainly does not in this life or in any other eternal version. For this heresy, surely you will awarded 12 bjillion points and be thrown down the mountain ...
Sorry, NP - no offence (or heresy) intended; I was thinking rather more geographically than liturgically.
I think we got the duplet right in Deirdre - I assume it's covered by the aforementioned Organist's Infallibility ...
Oh dear, I'm the Canadian here, we're the ones who always apologise eh? Now I'm afraid you must keep the points even if you don't get to use them in this game!
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Piglet
Islander
# 11803
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Posted
I wonder if they'll let me use them in Mornington Crescent ... ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
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I may not be on an island any more, but I'm still an islander.
alto n a soprano who can read music
Posts: 20272 | From: Fredericton, NB, on a rather larger piece of rock | Registered: Sep 2006
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
I think I only get half a point. The preacher used the metaphor of the photographs - photographs of himself at work, at rest, in his liturgical function were all different but all nonetheless of him, which I think constitutes some form of modalism. But then he strongly suggested he wasn't very happy about this sort of metaphor and went on to say the Trinity was best understood in terms of relationships - that is, the relationships of each Person to the others, and the rest of the sermon was pretty good.
(FWIW I've only said the Athanasian Creed in a liturgical setting once, and that was when the congregation lobbied the vicar to be allowed to do it. )
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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tomb
Shipmate
# 174
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Posted
I am happy to announce that Piglet/Elspeth is the WINNER of the Trinity Lottery. And how wonderful that it was won on Positive Points! Chanting the Athanasan Creed, singing the duple rhythm of Deidre properly, and the St. Anne fugue; this is the trifecta of orthodoxy. Piglet, next time you are in Colorado, you have a free room at our place!
Posts: 5039 | From: Denver, Colorado | Registered: May 2001
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Piglet
Islander
# 11803
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Posted
Thank you Tomb - one day I might just take you up on that.
And, of course, if you're ever in Newfoundland, we'll be delighted to see you at the Anglican Cathedral, where I'm sure you'll feel right at home ...
My Beloved, whose idea it was to do the Creed, said he thoroughly enjoyed it (I think we all did); for him it was a kind of Bucket List thing.
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I may not be on an island any more, but I'm still an islander.
alto n a soprano who can read music
Posts: 20272 | From: Fredericton, NB, on a rather larger piece of rock | Registered: Sep 2006
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tomb
Shipmate
# 174
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Posted
It was my pleasure, Piglet. Did you, btw, make a recording of the Athanasian Creed chant? I'm interested in how it was pointed.
Posts: 5039 | From: Denver, Colorado | Registered: May 2001
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