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tomb: When you attend church this weekend, note every time your priest or pastor, in trying to explain the Most Holy Trinity, says something that is heretical.

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Darn, I wish you had done this when I was at my church in the Netherlands. We don't have a priest or pastor
 

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Posted by Ariston (# 10894) on :
 
Actually, though this might be a bit on the Purgatorial side (but when has that stopped anyone around here?), couldn't Creator/Redeemer/Sanctifier be considered a very minor sort of heresy, since, according to Thomas Aquinas, it is the second person of the Trinity who is responsible for the act of creation?

Perhaps minor Quibblesies like this could be considered tiebreakers?

So sad to be working on Sunday, even though I know many American churches (likely including my own) won't be talking about the Trinity—it's the Sunday before Memorial Day, so we'll get some sort of patriotic sermon instead.
 

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Posted by piglet (# 11803) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by tomb:
... If the cleric substitutes the Athanasian Creed for either the Apostles' or The Niceno–Constantinopolitan Creed ... give yourself three points. If you attend an American Church, give yourself five ...

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Does "American" in this context include the Anglican Church of Canada?

At the behest of the Organist (who is Always Right*), we're going to sing the Athanasian Creed (to Anglican chant) in place of the Apostles' Creed at Choral Evensong on Sunday.

Does that give us any bonus points, especially if we remember where we are in the responses afterwards?

* I have to say that, as I'm his wife.
 

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Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :
 
What if the preacher is incomprehensible? I can't count heresies if I can't tell what the hell he means to say. (Is that God's safety device?)
 

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Posted by Ariston (# 10894) on :
 
I'm of the opinion of, if in reasonable doubt, count it. There will be enough questionable statements made everywhere that we, the Disassociated Is Outrage Brigade, ought to be able to have our fun.
 

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Posted by Poppy (# 2000) on :
 
There have to be bonus points for dance as circle dance has been such a popular metaphor in the last few years.

Any preacher brave enough to get their congo to dance or to have a go at body prayer may need to know if there are bonus points to be had here?

Just saying....
 

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Posted by The Rogue (# 2275) on :
 
You mean get the congo to conga?
 

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Posted by Poppy (# 2000) on :
 
Could do or a chachachaaaaaa.
 

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Posted by Ricardus (# 8757) on :
 
Does being in the choir constitute a liturgical function?

Does a lay reader count as a priest or pastor?

I have a bit of a blind spot concerning the verb 'substitute' - do you mean we get points if we say the Athanasian Creed, or if we don't?
 

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Posted by AndyB (# 10186) on :
 
Do you subtract points if all nine verses of St Patrick's breastplate is sung?

(It won't be in my church. I'd love to do it, but our lot don't know it so I don't choose it!)
 

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Posted by piglet (# 11803) on :
 
AndyB, bearing in mind your location, how can your congregation possibly not know Paddy's Bra? I think our hymn-book has eight verses and yes, we'll be singing all of them.

Do we gain or lose points if we get the apple story for the children's address - the one that explains how the skin, flesh and core are all parts of the apple, but are not actually all apples? We usually get it if the Dean's doing the kids' address, but he's going to be away, so we could end up getting anything.
 

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Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :
 
Beware of eggs appearing - especially if they are not hard-boiled. (Scrambled eggs would, of course, provide an interesting theological point: "Wholly and Undivided", anyone?)

On the other hand, you probably ought to steer clear of all hard-boiled preachers purveying them.
 

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Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :
 
I'll be travelling into the rainforest on Sunday. If I see a monkey spouting the wrong view about the Trinity, you'll be the first to know
 

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Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :
 
I notice it's the two women readers tasked with the Trinity Sermons this Sunday (he who gets to draw up the rota has conveniently made it so) - ah well, quite appropriate really, everyone knows women are the only creatures able to do three things at once.
 

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Posted by Leorning Cniht (# 17564) on :
 
I think I score one miserly point, for the priest name-checking the Athanasian creed, but there was no quoting, reciting or singing of it.

Despite the fact that this is Memorial Day weekend, patriotism scarcely got a look-in at our TEC shack. Well, OK - we did sing "America the Beautiful" as one of the hymns, and we prayed especially for dead veterans during the intercessions, and "Eternal Father, strong to save" is dual-use
 

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Posted by Lucia (# 15201) on :
 
I was hoping to try and play but sadly the Trinity only got one brief mention from the Bishop and the rest of the service was swamped by Mother's Day! (Today is Mother's Day here in Tunisia!)
 

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Posted by piglet (# 11803) on :
 
I'm not sure how many points I'm going to gain (or lose) - I'm hoping that Tomb will help me out with the maths:

Choral Eucharist:
St. Patrick's Breastplate in procession. There are actually 7 verses in our hymn-book - I had counted v.6 as two but it isn't - and we sang them all

Children's address about St. Patrick's shamrock demonstration of the Trinity (with clover - you can't get shamrocks here)

Sermon about the Trinity with references to Darwinism and space (microcosm, mesocosm and macrocosm)

Postlude: "St. Anne" fugue by Bach, which has Trinity connotations (three flats in the key-signature, triple-three-beat bars, fugue divided into three sections)

Choral Evensong:
Athanasian Creed (sung to Anglican Chant) instead of Apostles' Creed

Sermon about the Trinity citing the doctrines propounded by St. Athanasius and St. Nicholas at the Council of Nicaea

Another postlude in triple-triple (9/8) time: Siciliano for a High Ceremony by Howells
 

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Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :
 
I get a miserly five, for a responsive reading of the Athanasian Creed, half congregation against half congregation. In an American church. Which is unfairly generous, as I've never been in an LCMS church that DIDN'T have the whole thing every Trinity Sunday.

Other than that, I can't recall what the preacher said, which is sad but rather expected.

Do I get any points for having to explain the whole thing to an enquiring twelve year old? I don't think (I hope) I managed any heresies of my own...
 

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Posted by tomb (# 174) on :
 
Oh.My.Goodness.

Y'all are so far beyond what I experienced. Rector said "Trinity not one of those foundational beliefs necessary for salvation (##@)(*#$^@ head exploding)." Then he used St. Augustine's metaphor of the tree to explain the Trinity. Must invite him to dinner and gently point out that christological metaphors don't translate well to Trinitarian theology.

I only scored three points. 1 for outright denial of the Trinity; 1 for a monological half-assed attempt to explain the "three-in-one and one-in-three" and a third for mis-quoting St. Augustine.

I am gobsmacked/stunned that there are places that still use the Athanasian Creed--and chant it to Anglican tones.

Ariston, you are absolutely correct about the heretical nature of Creator/Redeemer/Sanctifier. That is why I omitted it from the contest. It's just too damn difficult to explain to people that the nature of the Trinity isn't just about the agency of each of the Three Persons, but also how they interpenetrate.

BTW: anybody (excluding Orthodox) who excluded the filioque at the Creed? Give yourself an extra point.

Piglet, sorry, but "American" doesn't include the Anglican Church in Canada. From my limited experience, the ACC is more Anglican than the CofE. But damn, you're SINGING the Athanasian creed? Points off for doing it at Evensong instead of at Mass, but still.... Damn.

And sorry, Poppy and the rest of you dancers, no points for Circle Dances or any other sort of "Liturgical Movement." This contest is about bad theology, not bad taste.

Piglet, I think you are certainly in contention for winning. It never would have occurred to me to consider the St. Anne fugue in the context of the Trinity, but now that you mention it....

Regarding St. Patrick's Breastplate: doesn't it just warm the cockles of your heart (so to speak) that this obscure hymn has the power to scare the sh*t out of non-Anglicans? You have to be a geologist to appreciate just how inaccurate the verse "around the old eternal rocks" is.

Two bonus points if you sang the "wizard" verse from the venerable English Hymnal; bonus point if the organist counted the duple rhythm for the two verses of Deidre properly. Bonus point if you know if you sang Deirdre properly or not.

Lamb Chopped: sorry, no extra points. But give yourself one if you explain to your offspring, upon inquiry, that "it's a mystery" and they believe you.
 

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Posted by no prophet (# 15560) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by piglet:
Does "American" in this context include the Anglican Church of Canada?

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It certainly does not in this life or in any other eternal version. For this heresy, surely you will awarded 12 bjillion points and be thrown down the mountain, you You YOU!

Re the contest: I am too stupid and heretical myself, thus could not detect anything of significance in the heresy way. I get a zero, and am out of the running.
 

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Posted by Evensong (# 14696) on :
 
Fun
 

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Posted by piglet (# 11803) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by no prophet:

quote:

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Originally posted by piglet:
Does "American" in this context include the Anglican Church of Canada?

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It certainly does not in this life or in any other eternal version. For this heresy, surely you will awarded 12 bjillion points and be thrown down the mountain ...

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Sorry, NP - no offence (or heresy) intended; I was thinking rather more geographically than liturgically.

I think we got the duplet right in Deirdre - I assume it's covered by the aforementioned Organist's Infallibility ...
 

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Posted by no prophet (# 15560) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by piglet:

quote:

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Originally posted by no prophet:

quote:

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Originally posted by piglet:
Does "American" in this context include the Anglican Church of Canada?

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It certainly does not in this life or in any other eternal version. For this heresy, surely you will awarded 12 bjillion points and be thrown down the mountain ...

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Sorry, NP - no offence (or heresy) intended; I was thinking rather more geographically than liturgically.

I think we got the duplet right in Deirdre - I assume it's covered by the aforementioned Organist's Infallibility ...

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Oh dear, I'm the Canadian here, we're the ones who always apologise eh? Now I'm afraid you must keep the points even if you don't get to use them in this game!
 

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Posted by piglet (# 11803) on :
 
I wonder if they'll let me use them in Mornington Crescent ...
 

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Posted by Ricardus (# 8757) on :
 
I think I only get half a point. The preacher used the metaphor of the photographs - photographs of himself at work, at rest, in his liturgical function were all different but all nonetheless of him, which I think constitutes some form of modalism. But then he strongly suggested he wasn't very happy about this sort of metaphor and went on to say the Trinity was best understood in terms of relationships - that is, the relationships of each Person to the others, and the rest of the sermon was pretty good.

(FWIW I've only said the Athanasian Creed in a liturgical setting once, and that was when the congregation lobbied the vicar to be allowed to do it. )
 

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Posted by tomb (# 174) on :
 
I am happy to announce that Piglet/Elspeth is the WINNER of the Trinity Lottery. And how wonderful that it was won on Positive Points! Chanting the Athanasan Creed, singing the duple rhythm of Deidre properly, and the St. Anne fugue; this is the trifecta of orthodoxy. Piglet, next time you are in Colorado, you have a free room at our place!
 

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Posted by piglet (# 11803) on :
 
Thank you Tomb - one day I might just take you up on that.

And, of course, if you're ever in Newfoundland, we'll be delighted to see you at the Anglican Cathedral, where I'm sure you'll feel right at home ...

My Beloved, whose idea it was to do the Creed, said he thoroughly enjoyed it (I think we all did); for him it was a kind of Bucket List thing.
 

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Posted by tomb (# 174) on :
 
It was my pleasure, Piglet. Did you, btw, make a recording of the Athanasian Creed chant? I'm interested in how it was pointed.
 

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