Ship of Fools: Obama the sexist

Thread: Obama the sexist Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by deano (# 12063) on :

He's almost as bad as Clinton!

Obama-sex-rat

How anyone can look at themselves in a mirror if they voted for this mysogenist, I just don't know. How can they sleep at. night knowing they out such a man in the White House?

President "hope for the future" is a sexist. Who new the left produced such people. I thought it was only us Nazi's who said that sort of thing.
[

[ 06. April 2013, 15:13: Message edited by: deano ]

Posted by Zach82 (# 3208) on :

Is this illiterate fuck-wit routine of yours supposed to be a joke, Deano?

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

Silly story.

If someone aid that Obama was 'the best-looking president of the US for decades'

well he was before the job took its toll on his looks

would that be sexist?

Posted by Porridge (# 15405) on :

I'm not sure what this story proves except that public figures must be as wary of what they say about friends as of what they say about foes.

IOW, [Snore]

@ leo:

Dunno about sexism; it might prove the commentor's need for glasses.

[ 06. April 2013, 16:07: Message edited by: Porridge ]

Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :

From the linked article:

quote:
Jennifer Rubin in the Washington Post wonders whether everyone has "gone stark raving mad", saying the president was "bludgeoned" into apologising. "Conservatives should figure out there is a bunch of real stuff to be complaining about, and much of this nonsense simply makes them look like they are back in junior high. And the tut-tutters on the left? Well, they shouldn't be surprised that young women don't want to be called 'feminists'. If the compliment police are going to descend every time a pleasantry is offered, well then the heck with 'feminism'."

bold mine

Posted by Josephine (# 3899) on :

An article about benevolent sexism, in case you're wondering what the issue is.

Posted by rolyn (# 16840) on :

Maybe all females everywhere donning the full-bodied Burka will eliminate sexism at a stroke .

Or maybe I'm thinking Orwellian futurist police state . Men are forced to view a picture of a good-looking woman, if there is measurable pupil dilation they are shot for being sexist.

"Stark raving mad" gets my vote.

Posted by Porridge (# 15405) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Josephine:
An article about benevolent sexism, in case you're wondering what the issue is.

Not much mystery to be had here; most of the sexism I personally encounter is of this type. In fact, sexism -- can we be frank? -- is rampant in U.S. culture, as substantial a presence -- though it may take slightly less overt and less disempowering forms these days -- as it has ever been. I'd say that in some ways it's worse than what my mother had to deal with, and I am no spring chicken.

In my seat in the state legislature, I am surrounded by men, and they talk solely to each other. They ignore my remarks and offer none of their own to me. To be fair, they're almost all Republicans as well (I'm a Democrat); let's hope that's the actual reason for their remaining incommunicado.

My issue is this: does one off-hand, humorously-intended (and possibly ironic) remark which is characteristic of this normative-sexist culture (coming as it does from a highly-placed political figure who has appointed women to numerous positions of power) really indicate entrenched misogyny in that executive?

Must we actually micro-analyze every frigging syllable out of every public official's mouth and use it to beat him or her about the head and shoulders?

Frankly, I'm a lot more disturbed by those officials who imagine women's wombs clamp shut when confronted with rapists, or who think that women should be forced to bring every conceivable pregnancy, all puns intended, to term, even against her will, or without the ability to support the resulting baby, or even at the cost of her own life.

Sexism is a serious and profoundly damaging phenomenon for women and men alike. Calling a friend good-looking is not.

YMMV.

Posted by no prophet (# 15560) on :

We're all sexist, all you beautiful ugly pieces of sweet smelling turds. I guess you folks elected Obama, penis and all, didn't you?

Posted by ToujoursDan (# 10578) on :

If only there was this much faux-rage directed at the hyper-sexualization of young girls through advertising; the restriction of women's reproductive choices; the judgment and scorn heaped upon women who are strong public figures (e.g., Hillary = bitch) and the judgment heaped on women who try to balance the demands of the workforce with the expectation that they take the lead parenting and homemaker role at home - and scorn heaped on those who drop the ball from time to time. That kind of sexism is still rampant.

The reaction to Obama's comment mystifies me. Mens' looks are increasingly the subject of commentary nowadays. We had to endure gushing from the very same right wing about Paul Ryan's "dreamy" blue eyes and buff physique during the last campaign. This is a culture that is increasingly thralled by physical appearance. Women are undoubtedly the target of it more than men, but that is changing.

Posted by Leorning Cniht (# 17564) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Josephine:
An article about benevolent sexism, in case you're wondering what the issue is.

I have commented before on the way that newspaper articles always feel the need to comment on Mrs Merkel's clothes and hair before they discuss her policies. Mrs Clinton's pant suits seemed to attract a similar interest.

I'd like to write it off as just a symptom of society's sexism, but it is true that women have a rather greater range of acceptable clothing and hairstyle choices than men in a business setting, and I note that new new energy secretary seems to have attracted a certain amount of interest for having unusual hair.

So I don't know that the line is always so easy to draw.

ETA: Dr. Moniz is the nominee for Energy Secretary - he hasn't been confirmed yet.

[ 06. April 2013, 17:41: Message edited by: Leorning Cniht ]

Posted by Gextvedde (# 11084) on :

Total fucking non-story as far as I'm concerned. Is this a joke?

[ 06. April 2013, 17:41: Message edited by: Gextvedde ]

Posted by Mere Nick (# 11827) on :

Well, she is good looking. Anyone who has a problem with me figuring she is can pound sand.

Posted by Firenze (# 619) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gextvedde:
Total fucking non-story as far as I'm concerned. Is this a joke?

I think it's deano's idea of one.

Posted by ToujoursDan (# 10578) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gextvedde:
Total fucking non-story as far as I'm concerned. Is this a joke?

Well, it has been fodder for the right-wing rage machine in the U.S. recently. (I guess Benghazi doesn't have the traction it used to.) One could argue they're a joke though.

[ 06. April 2013, 18:02: Message edited by: ToujoursDan ]

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :

What's that I see in my tea cup? Ah yes, a storm.

fwiw, Obama is without doubt the best looking president in the history of the United States. But that's the opinion of one straight middle-aged white guy.

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :

To me the story is he acknowledged the implications of his remark and amended it.

Sorry, but this stuff does matter. (Do read Josephine's article.) If you have a tremendous amount to offer the world, and the first thing people what to talk about is how you look, the temptation is to wonder if any of those things you have to offer would be less important to those people if you didn't look the right way.

It's not that it's not okay to be cute, it's that a female colleague wants to hear it's not at the top of the list of what makes her valuable. And not in a sigh, eye-roll, of-course-it-isn't sort of way. In a consistently reinforced way.

So good on Obama for taking it seriously. Everybody has a less- than-tactful moment, he stepped up when he had his and admitted it. And didn't' say "It's up to the oversensitive bitches to adjust to my comfort level."

[ 06. April 2013, 22:18: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]

Posted by goperryrevs (# 13504) on :

Despite Josephine and I disagreeing in purg recently, I think we're in a similar place on this one. I agree with Kelly, it does matter.

I think that the inappropriateness is reduced by the fact that it was amongst a bunch of other, appropriate compliments. But this was in a public speech. There's a difference there, than if he just mentioned it to his mates. The implication for Ms Harris is that her ability to be a good Attorney General is dependent on her looks. And the implication for people that aren't blessed with a similar level of good looks are somehow less capable professionally.

On a scale of importance, yes, it's not that big a deal, and there's been much worse said with no apology. So I also agree with the 'storm in a teacup' comments. But I do think it was inappropriate, and it was right he apologised. But since it wasn't a huge deal, and he did apologise, that should be the end of it. Story over.

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :

OK Kelly, this does matter and President Obama was right to apologise. On the other hand it isn't what matters most, nor was it the first thing he said about Ms Harris. This link shows that he stated 'she was "brilliant and she is dedicated and she is tough, and she is exactly what you'd want in anybody who is administering the law and making sure that everybody is getting a fair shake"' before he said anything about her appearance.

Yes, he made a mistake, but it wasn't as if he put looks first.

Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :

Republicans: "Oh look! Another stick to beat Obama with!"

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
OK Kelly, this does matter and President Obama was right to apologise. On the other hand it isn't what matters most, nor was it the first thing he said about Ms Harris. This link shows that he stated 'she was "brilliant and she is dedicated and she is tough, and she is exactly what you'd want in anybody who is administering the law and making sure that everybody is getting a fair shake"' before he said anything about her appearance.

Yes, he made a mistake, but it wasn't as if he put looks first.

Fair enough.

Read the "I fucking love science" stuff in Josephine's article. God, it cut me to the heart. Because I fucking love "I fucking love science" and the fantastic shit that woman does is worth two Nobel prizes--always has been, even when she was faceless--and the fact that guys were sailing up to her evaluating her "shaggability" as if that was their privilege, and not something that wasn't any of their damn business to do... it just sucks. And I praise her for calling it out.

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:

Read the "I fucking love science" stuff in Josephine's article. God, it cut me to the heart. Because I fucking love "I fucking love science" and the fantastic shit that woman does is worth two Nobel prizes--always has been, even when she was faceless--and the fact that guys were sailing up to her evaluating her "shaggability" as if that was their privilege, and not something that wasn't any of their damn business to do... it just sucks. And I praise her for calling it out.

I read that "I fucking love science" stuff and there's a heck of a lot in there that is very close to home. I work in IT, in a scientific environment in South Wales, all of which leads to a non-inclusive culture. Women working in that environment have to be capable and to take no shit whatsoever, because some of the guys working there are troglodytes and glory in it. Maybe it's catching!

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :

I think it's the "glory in it" bit that has caused PTSD in me.

Mine comes from certain scathing sexists I ran across in my gaming years, which can be equally harrowing for women who try to navigate it. And some of the guys who think they can white-glove women...

[Eek!]

"But that's different, because women are not visually stimulated, Please, God, let them not be visually stimulated. Pretty, pretty please..."

[ 06. April 2013, 23:47: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :

quote:
Originally posted by ToujoursDan:
Mens' looks are increasingly the subject of commentary nowadays. We had to endure gushing from the very same right wing about Paul Ryan's "dreamy" blue eyes and buff physique during the last campaign. This is a culture that is increasingly thralled by physical appearance. Women are undoubtedly the target of it more than men, but that is changing.

Indeed, I think the solution is to give women more permission to comment on the looks of men, not to tell men they can't comment on the looks of women.

Because let's face it, most of us are not blind. We notice whether we consider someone attractive or not.

Posted by no prophet (# 15560) on :

It's deeper than that Orfeo. Sexuality is part of all human relationships, whether acknowledged and controlled or allowed to unconsciously influence. Human beings size up each others physical attributes and consider the mating potential or whether our antlers are larger than the next deer's. Because Obama didn't decide to censor his comments, he's been less civilized than we expect, but we shouldn't expect him to check his hormones at the door, nor take anti-androgen drugs. Women are wont to censor themselves more in western cultures, but they are affected by the same human and hormonal issues than men. Hence the care taken with dress, cosmetics, hair, though these seem often aimed at both sexes more clearly than with men.

Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :

I will agree that Kamala Harris' looks should not have come into it at all. What I do object to is that, as a group, the Republicans do exponentially more to harm women's rights.

quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
I work in IT, in a scientific environment in South Wales, all of which leads to a non-inclusive culture.

Gonna have to call you on this on. Our pal deano has stated IT is practically UK Feminista.

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :

quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Indeed, I think the solution is to give women more permission to comment on the looks of men, not to tell men they can't comment on the looks of women.

Because let's face it, most of us are not blind. We notice whether we consider someone attractive or not.

I might agree with you, but I would make a distinction between commenting and evaluating (emphasis on the root "value")
Again I would refer to some o the comments made by they guys toward the IFLS gal. some were just "hey you're cute". Some added comments about her "fuckability" Um, who's job is it to evaluate that?

Because as far as I can see, in the REAL world all kinds of people of various attractiveness levels are getting laid. There is no actual "you must be this hot to fuck" bar, so why talk as if there is one? Commenting is fine as long as it is one person's opinion and not framed as a categorical evaluation.

But the bit about women "given permission"-- note how you phrased that-- I agree with that. Because there still is this lingering sense that it is men that make the "evaluations" (basing this on some of the more appalling comments discussed, ) and that the female half of the human race are just this sort of buffet waiting for selection.

Case in point-- months ago, we were having a similar discussion about whether or not women should be flattered by random evaluations (i'm going to assume we all agree simple compliments aren't a problem) a guy said something (trying to empathize) about how he might be flattered by a nice looking lady complimenting him, but not at all flattering if he got it from Roseanne Barr. The conversation had moved too far to address it, but I remember thinking,"Why? If a compliment is a good thing, then why isn't it just as good getting it from Roseanne Barr? She's not saying she's attractive, she's saying YOU are."

Unless(as I suspect) the compliment is read as "evaluation" and the implication is "selection." Which would both explain why women get uncomfortable about the context and delivery of certain compliments, and why men might have the unfortunate societal consequence of having to watch how they phrase their compliments a bit more.

But as you say, if women were freer about commenting on men's appearance, and men therefore got to sense the "compliment/ evaluation" difference for themselves, maybe things would balance out enough for us all to be a little more humane about how we talk about each other.

Also, maybe the only problem at all with what Obama said was the word "best." As per above, he may be president, but it's just not his job to make public evaluations of that sort.

[ 07. April 2013, 03:45: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]

Posted by Leorning Cniht (# 17564) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:

Also, maybe the only problem at all with what Obama said was the word "best." As per above, he may be president, but it's just not his job to make public evaluations of that sort.

He's the president talking about an Attorney General, in a reasonably official context (it's actually quite hard for the president to have an unofficial context in public). The fact that Dr Harris is easy on the eye is completely irrelevant to her performance as Attorney General. It shouldn't matter whether she looks like Christie Brinkley or Chris Christie.

The president shouldn't have brought her looks up, he knows he shouldn't, and apologized - it's not a big deal.

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :

OK, fuckin' a, that's about as right as right can be.

Posted by Schroedinger's cat (# 64) on :

So yes, everyday sexism is an issue. It is wrong and mistaken, and should be stamped out. Obama was wrong to make a comment that is sexist, and he has now apologised for it.

The truth is that people make mistakes, and the best people acknowledge that, and seek to improve. Did anyone actually expect that Obama was perfect?

Because GWB was so brilliant, wasn't he*?

And deano - you are a rotten piece of arse-crack mould, if you think this is funny in any way. Kindly drop into the blocked u-bend of life and die.

*sorry, did I say brilliant? I meant the only fucking politician who could make Boris seem like a competent leader.

Posted by deano (# 12063) on :

quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Gonna have to call you on this on. Our pal deano has stated IT is practically UK Feminista.

I haven't stated that. That's what's know as "a load of old bollocks".

It's interesting to see how many people here are minimising Obama's comments. Lefties protecting a sexist. Who'da thunk'it?

Still, I'm glad that some don't want to bury their heads in the sand and pretend this isn't important.

Posted by JoannaP (# 4493) on :

quote:
Originally posted by deano:
It's interesting to see how many people here are minimising Obama's comments. Lefties protecting a sexist. Who'da thunk'it?

Still, I'm glad that some don't want to bury their heads in the sand and pretend this isn't important.

Looking at Obama's record as a whole, I think very few people would describe him as "a sexist". He is a normal human being who slipped up once and has apologised for it. Just as one swallow does not make a summer, one remark does not define a person.

Posted by Rosa Winkel (# 11424) on :

quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Republicans: "Oh look! Another stick to beat Obama with!"

Showing their intellectual poverty as they do so.

Posted by deano (# 12063) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
So yes, everyday sexism is an issue. It is wrong and mistaken, and should be stamped out. Obama was wrong to make a comment that is sexist, and he has now apologised for it.

The truth is that people make mistakes, and the best people acknowledge that, and seek to improve. Did anyone actually expect that Obama was perfect?

Because GWB was so brilliant, wasn't he*?

And deano - you are a rotten piece of arse-crack mould, if you think this is funny in any way. Kindly drop into the blocked u-bend of life and die.

*sorry, did I say brilliant? I meant the only fucking politician who could make Boris seem like a competent leader.

I don't think this is funny. It's terrible and Congress should start hearings. I mean why wouldn't you. He's the President.

Posted by Schroedinger's cat (# 64) on :

Oh believe me, I know plenty of people who would have been spamming my timeline if Obama had actually been unrepentantly sexist. As it is, this is the first I have heard about it.

I don't think everyday sexism is funny. Similarly, I don't think you are funny deano. A shimmering block of knob cheese, maybe.

Posted by Porridge (# 15405) on :

quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
[QUOTE] Indeed, I think the solution is to give women more permission to comment on the looks of men, not to tell men they can't comment on the looks of women.

Because let's face it, most of us are not blind. We notice whether we consider someone attractive or not.

Um, no. NO NO NO NO.

First, I do not fucking need anyone's fucking "permission" to say whatever I fucking please about anybody. All I have to do is be prepared for the consequences.

And what about those consequences?

Do you actually imagine, for one minute, that my publicly and loudly speculating about, oh, say, the length of Guy #1's penis in the hearing of several other guys, or even in the presence of mixed company, is actually likely to IMPROVE anybody's sexist behavior?

Give. Me. A. Break.

Posted by deano (# 12063) on :

It's always the same with Democrats. From Kennedy to Clinton to Obama.

It starts with "You look hot!!" and ends up with "Do you want a cigar?"

I suspect the dismissive attitude shown here would be howls of faux outrage were a conservative to have made similar comments.

Posted by QLib (# 43) on :

Obama has out his foot in it before - about the special olympics for example. One or two pratfalls do not a serial philanderer make. They don't even make a sexist.

deano - what nobody can work out is whether you're just trying to be funny or whether you really are that stupid. Me, I don't think it's an either-or option.

Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :

quote:
Originally posted by deano:

quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Gonna have to call you on this on. Our pal deano has stated IT is practically UK Feminista.
I haven't stated that. That's what's know as "a load of old bollocks".

quote:
Originally posted by deano:
]Not in my experience. I've worked in IT for almost 30 years and in my experience it's a great industry for women.

Posted by deano (# 12063) on :

quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:

quote:
Originally posted by deano:

quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Gonna have to call you on this on. Our pal deano has stated IT is practically UK Feminista.
I haven't stated that. That's what's know as "a load of old bollocks".
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
]Not in my experience. I've worked in IT for almost 30 years and in my experience it's a great industry for women.

So you equate a good industry for women to work in with a hotbed of radical feminism!

Wow. No wonder you're desperate to defend Obama, you're even more sexist than he is.

There is some serious hypocrisy from the left on display here. Ad hominen attacks merely confirm the lack of real arguments.

Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :

Methinks the deano doth protest too much.

The habitual user of hyperbole (I guess that's one way of looking at it, kinder than merely seeing provocation) goes off the deep end when someone else makes a little use of hyperbole.

Plank out of eye time, deano. Hyperbole is a game anyone can play. You don't have a corner on that market.

Posted by rolyn (# 16840) on :

quote:
Originally posted by deano:

There is some serious hypocrisy from the left on display here. Ad hominen attacks merely confirm the lack of real arguments.

I'm at all sure what the argument here is .

Is an obsession re. all things 'left' treatable these days ?

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :

quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
I will agree that Kamala Harris' looks should not have come into it at all. What I do object to is that, as a group, the Republicans do exponentially more to harm women's rights.

quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
I work in IT, in a scientific environment in South Wales, all of which leads to a non-inclusive culture.
Gonna have to call you on this on. Our pal deano has stated IT is practically UK Feminista.

Either my experience is at odds with deano's, or deano's idea of what is great for women is off-beam. Mind you, I've worked in IT elsewhere in the UK and it has been much better there for women, so maybe geography plays a part too.

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :

quote:
Originally posted by JoannaP:

quote:
Originally posted by deano:
It's interesting to see how many people here are minimising Obama's comments. Lefties protecting a sexist. Who'da thunk'it?

Still, I'm glad that some don't want to bury their heads in the sand and pretend this isn't important.
Looking at Obama's record as a whole, I think very few people would describe him as "a sexist". He is a normal human being who slipped up once and has apologized for it. Just as one swallow does not make a summer, one remark does not define a person.

Exactly. While I did want to unpack the issues a little, as I started off saying, the news to me is that he apologized. The usual tactic would be to throw all kinds of spin over it that made whoever complained look evil. That is exactly what Clinton did, so bringing him into the OP only highlights how much more class Obama has than Clinton.

I also agree with others that deano is playing Johnny Hyperbole, and I suspect he is getting off on digging at Obama supporters on that basis alone, and if I get the sense he is twisting my words to dig at people, I will eat him.

"Charges drawn up?" Good God, what nonsense. [Disappointed]

[ 07. April 2013, 16:02: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]

Posted by Porridge (# 15405) on :

I'm surprised that nobody's pointed out the obvious sexism revealed by Obama's actions. For example, he appointed a female Secretary of State, and 100% of his Supreme Court appointees have been women, and he appointed more women to the Federal bench in his first term than any other president has in a single term.

Posted by balaam (# 4543) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Josephine:
An article about benevolent sexism, in case you're wondering what the issue is.

That link worked yesterday, I was going to look at it again, where's it gone?

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Porridge:
I'm surprised that nobody's pointed out the obvious sexism revealed by Obama's actions. For example, he appointed a female Secretary of State, and 100% of his Supreme Court appointees have been women, and he appointed more women to the Federal bench in his first term than any other president has in a single term.

That probably illustrates the difference between what Obama once said and what he has done over a period of years.

I'd suggest that what people do matters more.

Posted by Sergius-Melli (# 17462) on :

quote:
Originally posted by deano:
I suspect the dismissive attitude shown here would be howls of faux outrage were a conservative to have made similar comments.

I remember something of the like happening not too long ago here in the UK...joking turned into baying for blood...

Posted by rolyn (# 16840) on :

..... are we talking about cameron and the "There there dear" jibe in the House of Commons ?

He was fuckin lucky to get away as lightly as he did with that one .
He wouldn't have got off had my Missis been on the end of it I can tell you that !

Posted by malik3000 (# 11437) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Methinks the deano doth protest too much.

The habitual user of hyperbole (I guess that's one way of looking at it, kinder than merely seeing provocation) goes off the deep end when someone else makes a little use of hyperbole.

Plank out of eye time, deano. Hyperbole is a game anyone can play. You don't have a corner on that market.

Hypocrisy even more than hyperbole. deano's posts indicate an utter lack of a meaningful morality.

[ 08. April 2013, 02:53: Message edited by: malik3000 ]

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :

quote:
Originally posted by malik3000:

quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Methinks the deano doth protest too much.

The habitual user of hyperbole (I guess that's one way of looking at it, kinder than merely seeing provocation) goes off the deep end when someone else makes a little use of hyperbole.

Plank out of eye time, deano. Hyperbole is a game anyone can play. You don't have a corner on that market.
Hypocrisy even more than hyperbole. deano's posts indicate an utter lack of a meaningful morality.

Yeah, where was all this feminist outrage when people were sneering that Hilary needed a facelift?

{Thread vertigo]

[ 08. April 2013, 02:55: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]

Posted by Fr Weber (# 13472) on :

quote:
Originally posted by deano:
He's almost as bad as Clinton!

Obama-sex-rat

How anyone can look at themselves in a mirror if they voted for this mysogenist, I just don't know. How can they sleep at. night knowing they out such a man in the White House?

President "hope for the future" is a sexist. Who new the left produced such people. I thought it was only us Nazi's who said that sort of thing.
[

deano, I call bullshit.

You're not upset with Obama because of his sexism (benevolent or otherwise); you're upset with him because you disagree with his politics. That would be fair enough, if you would just say so and give substantive reasons for your disagreement, but here you're attacking him for something you wouldn't even notice if Mitt Romney or Paul Ryan said it.

Which is basically Rush Limbaugh-style dickheadery of the lowest sort. Did you think that would somehow slip under the radar?

Posted by Liopleurodon (# 4836) on :

It's a gaffe. It was inappropriate. It was almost certainly unintentional and in the grand scheme of things it's really no big deal. In fact, it would be no kind of issue at all if we lived in a world in which female politicians weren't constantly evaluated and criticised on the basis of their looks - in that world, it'd just be another nice thing to say. To be honest, I'm amazed at how few gaffes Obama has managed to make over the course of his presidency. Having people record and scrutinise every last word you say must be really tough.

Posted by Porridge (# 15405) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
Did you think that would somehow slip under the radar?

No. He thought it would somehow wind people up.

He was right.

Posted by Rosa Winkel (# 11424) on :

He may not be the most brightest of buttons, but he knows how to wind up.

Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on :

I don't think it's even a left-right issue - there is plenty of sexism in left wing circles, in the LGBTQ community and elsewhere. In the early days of gay liberation, the lesbians were expected to make the tea for the gay men!

I agree with Josephine and Kelly - Obama made a mistake and apologised, without diminishing the weightiness of the issue. Benevolent sexism is a real issue for women.

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Porridge:

quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
Did you think that would somehow slip under the radar?
No. He thought it would somehow wind people up.

He was right.

Actually, I am kind of proud of of our ability to address the complexities of this situation while he bounces around in the background and honks a klaxon horn at us.

Just keep stepping over him. It's more fun than dealing with him.

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Liopleurodon:
It's a gaffe.

Sums it up nicely.

Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :

Kelly! Shame on you comparing deano to a clown!
[Disappointed]

Denigrates clowns, it does. Wouldn't even deride a mime with such a comparison.

there, there Ariston. Mean, nasty Kelly did not mean it...

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :

Didn't think. Sorry.

What I meant was, he uses the klaxon horn without ourpose, and he irritates the true clowns who actually perform and entertain.

(Better? I definitely don't want to appear to be slacking in my duties as part of Team Ariston [Big Grin]

)

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :

(I accidentally typed "Team Aniston" at first.
Which I found really, really funny. [Big Grin]

)

[ 09. April 2013, 17:24: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]

Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :

deano can be easily misinterpreted, as he does an excellent imitation of the mating call of the Trollus blowhardus.
But truly, I think he is simply attempting to save money on his Viagra prescription.

( I strongly suspect he typed the OP with one hand)

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :

quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
deano can be easily misinterpreted, as he does an excellent imitation of the mating call of the Trollus blowhardus.
But truly, I think he is simply attempting to save money on his Viagra prescription.

( I strongly suspect he typed the OP with one hand)

He'd have to, as the first finger of the other hand would be up on the screen helping him read.

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :

[Killing me]

Posted by Mark Betts (# 17074) on :

It's not possible to criticize or dislike Obamacare - because if you do it automatically makes you a racist and a homophobe.

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
It's not possible to criticize or dislike Obamacare - because if you do it automatically makes you a racist and a homophobe.

Someone just back from the pub?

Posted by Twilight (# 2832) on :

[If Deano was a troll you guys would have fed him into morbid obesity by now.]

My father's generation was rampant with benevolent sexism, their little gals just didn't need to worry their pretty little heads about anything like taxes or politics.

I've experienced plenty of it, but I don't think Obama's statement fits the benevolent sexism definition: "A set of interrelated attitudes toward women that are sexist in terms of viewing women stereotypically and in restricted roles but that are subjectively positive in feeling tone."

There is nothing stereotypical or restricted about the role of attorney general. There is all kinds of acknowledgment of and respect for her competence and intelligence in the reality that she has been awarded that position. Mentioning that she is good looking on top of all that doesn't seem like "benevolent sexism" to me because it lacks any underlying motivation of keeping her down.

Saying "Judy doesn't need to go to college because she's so pretty she'll be married before she's twenty," is benevolent sexism. ISTM, saying she's the person best qualified to run the company and good looking too," is not.

Posted by Justinian (# 5357) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
It's not possible to criticize or dislike Obamacare - because if you do it automatically makes you a racist and a homophobe.

And this is the standard of reasoning I expect from you.

On the other hand if you think the American system before Obamacare is worse than Obamacare rather than the single most wasteful and useless healthcare system in the world unless you are absolutely loaded you are both an economic illiterate and someone with very little compassion.

Posted by comet (# 10353) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:

There is nothing stereotypical or restricted about the role of attorney general. There is all kinds of acknowledgment of and respect for her competence and intelligence in the reality that she has been awarded that position. Mentioning that she is good looking on top of all that doesn't seem like "benevolent sexism" to me because it lacks any underlying motivation of keeping her down.

Saying "Judy doesn't need to go to college because she's so pretty she'll be married before she's twenty," is benevolent sexism. ISTM, saying she's the person best qualified to run the company and good looking too," is not.

this.

all of it. exactly my thoughts, only well articulated when I couldn't do it. Thanks, Twilight.

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :

"Good looking" maybe,-- even "very good looking", OK-- but "best looking?" --sorry, no. It adds an element of competition between her and all her female colleagues. And do we really need more of that?

[ 14. April 2013, 19:58: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]

Posted by Leorning Cniht (# 17564) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:

Saying "Judy doesn't need to go to college because she's so pretty she'll be married before she's twenty," is benevolent sexism. ISTM, saying she's the person best qualified to run the company and good looking too," is not.

I am uncomfortable with the comment because her looks just aren't relevant to how she performs as Attorney General. I'll agree that it's not nearly as egregious as the "you don't need to work hard because you've got breasts" type of comment, but I don't think Obama would have made a comment about how attractive a male Attorney General was.

There is a fairly large school of thought that says that men in a professional setting basically have to shower, whereas women need to have immaculate hair, just the right amount of makeup, be slim and reasonably attractive. That's sexist, and referring to a woman's attractiveness in a professional context feeds in to that.

[ 14. April 2013, 19:48: Message edited by: Leorning Cniht ]

Posted by comet (# 10353) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
"good looking" maybe,-- even "very good looking", OK-- but "best looking?" --sorry, no. It adds an element of competition between her and all her female colleagues. And do we really need more of that?

eh. only for people who get sucked into that. it's a compliment from a heterosexual male and purely subjective. the other things he said about her he may be especially qualified to state with some sort of authority, but the last part was strictly from the authority of a straight dude who appreciates an attractive woman.

which means it's pretty meaningless. Now, sure, if the many other female attorney generals out there think they won't have "made it" unless Obama thinks they're hot, then it could cause them to get all neurotic. but I say that's their problem. He's not exactly been appointed the final authority on the "best" of the pretty woman. He's just this guy, you know.

We, as the female half of the species, need to get the fuck over it. Stop looking for insult when there is none. We have gotten so collectively neurotic about physical appearance that when someone says we're good looking, we immediately wonder what the hell they meant by that. it's stupid.

so this attorney general is good looking. frankly, if people hadn't gotten so worked up about it, no one would remember that part because it was an essentially meaningless compliment tacked on to the other things he said which actually meant something. it's the hysteria that is giving this any weight at all.

and it's a double standard. I think Obama is the "best" looking president since Kennedy. given the right circumstances, I'd be all over that boy. does saying that reduce him, and all men by extension, into a piece of meat? hell no. is anyone saying he really got the job because of his looks? no one with any credibility. That happens to women, but by screeching about it every time a successful woman is noted for her beauty, we are the ones who are reducing her to her physical appearance. We are the ones minimizing her accomplishments.

We are the ones allowing this double standard to continue.

My boss is an extremely bright woman who is very skookum where business is concerned. She's the hardest working woman I've ever met (and that's saying something). she's also incredibly kind - which is rarer in the business world. and to top it off, she's funny as shit. I adore her.

She's also HOT. like, men lose their words when she is around. hell, so do a number of women. Now, when I'm at work and every third new guy in town is asking me if my boss is single, I could get all competitive and feel hideous by comparison and get grumpy that she's not appreciated for her skills, but that's pointless. Human have eyeballs and we see the outer packaging first. It's all those other things that actually matter. So when some guy comes into the bar and says, "Wow, M is incredibly good looking!" I just agree. 'cause it's true. if the opportunity arrises, I might also point out that she's a lot more than that. But it doesn't matter; if they stick around they'll figure that out for themselves.

meanwhile, rather than hating her for her seeming perfection or finding all my faults, I embrace her friendship and love all those things about her that make her precious to me. (and she is. she's my boss but we've also been friends since 4th grade)

so with this attorney general, I can choose to take it as "it's all about her looks and I'll never measure up!" or, like Obama, I can think, "go girl! you're all that AND a bag of chips!" and celebrate her.

We're humans. we're never going to be blind to attraction. I sure as hell won't. Nor do I want people afraid to compliment me when I have one of those rare days where I actually manage to dress like an adult woman and I look good.

Tell me when I look nice! but also tell me when you think I've done well, am fucking brilliant, helped you feel better, made you laugh, or had some great insight. I'll take it all, thanks.

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :

quote:
Originally posted by comet:

He's not exactly been appointed the final authority on the "best" of the pretty woman. He's just this guy, you know.

That would be my point.

[ 14. April 2013, 20:26: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]

Posted by comet (# 10353) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:

quote:
Originally posted by comet:

He's not exactly been appointed the final authority on the "best" of the pretty woman. He's just this guy, you know.

That would be my point.

and so?

are you afraid people will think he is some sort of authority? that's their problem. Are you offended he used his position of power to state the bleedin' obvious? He's hardly the first. plus, he's a human. he opens his mouth, shit comes out. just like the rest of us. He complimented her, in a way that wasn't condescending or rapey. Let's allow him to be a nice guy who offered an unsolicited compliment. (I mean, c'mon, the rest probably were solicited. that was probably the only genuine thing that came out of his mouth)

And, let's allow her to accept a real compliment with grace and not have to feel embarrassed or ashamed because she happens to not be a horse. All this kerfluffle not only makes us as a society look as shallow as a kiddie pool, but also must be making her want to hide under a rock. let's let it the fuck go, shall we?

Posted by Deputy Verger (# 15876) on :

quote:
Orginally posted by Comet
Tell me when I look nice! but also tell me when you think I've done well, am fucking brilliant, helped you feel better, made you laugh, or had some great insight. I'll take it all, thanks.

You are fucking brilliant. Well said, all of it.

Comet for President! And (you heard it here first) she'd be the best-looking female president y'all ever had.

Posted by comet (# 10353) on :

(crossposted - DV, nobody wants that. believe me. if people find this offensive from a president, wait 'til they get a load of me!)

and furthermore - shit like this is going to cause people all over the place to be afraid of making an honest compliment. Some already are. I have had people compliment me on my looks, my outfit, my hair, whatever - and then later apologize as if they'd said something offensive. what the fuck is with that? when did an honest compliment meant in the best possible way turn into an insult? I mean, sure, if you treat a woman (or anyone) as if they're on display in the butcher's meat case, "Great tits, baby!" then that's just rucking fude. But since when does someone have to feel the need to apologize for doing the kindness of a polite compliment?

jaysus we're going to Peecee ourselves to death.

(went back to edit a stupid typo because I CAN)

[ 14. April 2013, 21:36: Message edited by: comet ]

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :

He was talking in his capacity as President? it was a tiny gaffe, I already said, but it's still a gaffe.

And since plenty of men are articulating mild discomfort at the same thing, I am going to give myself permission not to write it off as simple female neurosis.

And also, the President himself understood the dynamics well enough to address it-- he doesn't seem the type that would do something like that just to appease a bunch of insecure women.

Yeah, maybe the women in question blew it off but--and I am trying to put myself in the position of a man in that situation-- why take the chance? Why run the risk of affecting mutual rapport in a situation that comes ready-made fraught with challenges?

Being "the best" can be lonely. I thank men in power would do well to find ways to encourage female solidarity. Just that. it's not a burning rage thing, it's a fine-tuning thing.

Posted by Catrine (# 9811) on :

quote:
Originally posted by comet:
Tell me when I look nice! but also tell me when you think I've done well, am fucking brilliant, helped you feel better, made you laugh, or had some great insight. I'll take it all, thanks.

Amen. Compliments are fine. "Best" if someone calls me the best at something that's pretty fine with me. [sorry a little nice for hell] I happen to think that people who are skilled at things (including being decent human beings), tend to be better looking than hateful people who hide their lights really under their bushells [/sorry a little nice for hell] but Obama "Sex-rat"? Someone needs to look up definitions of sex.

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Catrine:
but Obama "Sex-rat"? Someone needs to look up definitions of sex.

ITA with that. Clinton would be the Sex Rat.

Watering down Obama's apology does not honor it, though. IMO. I think he did good.

[ 14. April 2013, 21:18: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]

Posted by comet (# 10353) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
He was talking in his capacity as President? it was a tiny gaffe, I already said, but it's still a gaffe.

I disagree. But that's cool.

quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
And since plenty of men are articulating mild discomfort at the same thing, I am going to give myself permission not to write it off as simple female neurosis.

when you say "female neurosis" are you implying that I'm saying women, generally, are neurotic? that's horseshit. I'm saying our society, generally, feeds into our insecurities and can lead to neurosis. it may be societal, but it's also very personal; and it sure as fuck isn't genetic. I deny it. and see? still female. I'm not playing the "hysteria" game here. I'm saying that we, as a society (i.e. everyone, male and female both) and specifically as the XX members of this society, need to get our heads out of our collective asses.

quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Being "the best" can be lonely. I thank men in power would do well to find ways to encourage female solidarity. Just that. it's not a burning rage thing, it's a fine-tuning thing.

well sure - encourage, support, etc. But it's rather up to us, isn't it?

if saying "best" immediately makes a bunch of women (who likely have never even been seen by this guy) feel like second best, they need to work that out for themselves.

couple of things going on here - can someone tell me how many female attorneys general we have in this country? and further, how many our president has actually met? Because I see a whole other dynamic going on here - guys insult each other as a camaraderie thing. there's this running assumption that to other straight men, all men are ugly compared to all women. I can easily see Obama seeing other AGs as dudes, and by default she is the "best" looking because the rest are men and therefore ugly.

it's how men talk to each other. common as spit.

another thing, and this is my personal take. I had only vaguely heard of this senator from Chicago years ago when he guested on "Wait, Wait, Don't Tell Me"*. At some event he had said something to a reporter who had then made a moment out of it by saying the senator had embarrassed him in front of a girl he was trying to impress. Obama then called the guy up and said something along the lines of, "hey man, sorry to mess up your game."

Now, this could easily be ripped to shreds. first off, it was a publicity stunt - otherwise, why record it? secondly, "your game" could be taken as insulting to the woman, I suppose. Thirdly, the guy was obviously a whiner and Obama was obviously having some fun with it. How condescending!

But my take on it? he's a real man. he can speak unscripted and sounds like someone who is not an automaton. he has a goddamn sense of humor (saints be praised!) and isn't afraid to let it show. he doesn't have a stick up his ass. and, while this guy was being a whiney little ass and playing for publicity and no apology was actually needed, he got one anyway. No matter how staged. I LOVE people who have managed to come to the glaringly obvious conclusion that apologizing doesn't fucking hurt.

so I decided then that I like Obama's realness and humanity. His policies? not always so much. But I suspect he's a guy I could have a beer with and talk straight to and would probably have a good laugh with. So I like the guy. and in that, I see this non-incident in the most positive light on his motives. 'cause I think he's just a good guy, at the end of the day. He's not a dickhead. And so I'm willing to assume that his motivations were neither sexist nor malicious.

*non-yanks - a comedy news quiz on NPR not dissimilar to BBC4's News Quiz or Now Show.

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :

quote:
Originally posted by comet:

But my take on it? he's a real man. he can speak unscripted and sounds like someone who is not an automaton. he has a goddamn sense of humor (saints be praised!) and isn't afraid to let it show. he doesn't have a stick up his ass. and, while this guy was being a whiney little ass and playing for publicity and no apology was actually needed, he got one anyway. No matter how staged. I LOVE people who have managed to come to the glaringly obvious conclusion that apologizing doesn't fucking hurt.

so I decided then that I like Obama's realness and humanity. His policies? not always so much. But I suspect he's a guy I could have a beer with and talk straight to and would probably have a good laugh with. So I like the guy. and in that, I see this non-incident in the most positive light on his motives. 'cause I think he's just a good guy, at the end of the day. He's not a dickhead. And so I'm willing to assume that his motivations were neither sexist nor malicious.

*non-yanks - a comedy news quiz on NPR not dissimilar to BBC4's News Quiz or Now Show.

First of all, of topic a bit, I was going to PM this, but hell with it-- FUCK YEAH! This is the kind of shit that makes Hell really worth reading! Fuck that namby-pamby gumball troll shit, two awesome women throwing down? Hold on to your fucking hats! [Big Grin]

OK, back to the event... [Big Grin]

I chose the word neurotic because ..well in reading the kid of assessments you were providing about (basically) any women who took issue with the situation seemed to imply that. It's their hang up, end of.

Again, my respect grew for Obama because he chose not to leave it at that. Again, I think it waters down that stand he took to say, "And anyway, he really didn't NEED to apologize." Obviously he though he did. I presume he gave the matter serious thought and wasn't just "spinning"

I like him, too, I think he's hot, too. And I don't think-- indeed, all along I ave been saying quite the opposite-- that he was being a dickhead or a malicious sexist.But I also think he's very good art taking on board other people's points of view-- it's been one of his strengths. I think he proved himself with this.

And I repeat-- while I totally, TOTALLY agree with you that we women need to dig in and support each other-- you and I have shared enough war stories for me to say "I know you know what I mean"-- it does really help when a man in a position of power chimes in with his support as well.

That's all.

And that's what he did.

[ 14. April 2013, 21:42: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]

Posted by comet (# 10353) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Why run the risk of affecting mutual rapport in a situation that comes ready-made fraught with challenges?

this is a side note and not directed to Kelly at all; but, WHAT THE FUCK IS WITH THIS? half of our population are women. Some are bound to be our bosses and our employees and the contractors who fix our roofs and all sorts of business relationships. And just like the male of the species some will be good at it and some will not.

Good lord what a rat's nest we create for ourselves in this world. Fuck it all. I want to move to a cabin in the woods and commune with the song birds and grow tomatoes and shoot all trespassers.

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :

Yeah, but the author nailed it, right? [Frown]

That's some ugly shit.

My mom was a personnel director, and she used to love to sneer, "Oh I hate working for a woman." I finally said to her, "Do you think your staff said that about you?"

[ 14. April 2013, 21:48: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :

quote:
Originally posted by comet:
[ And just like the male of the species some will be good at it and some will not.

OK, I'm gonna address this, as I do think it pertains in some way to the conversation, if not to the White House staff, necessarily, to women in business at large, and therefore is part of my point:

As per the article, the sense I get is that, when faced with a new boss, there is a baseline of assumed competency that is given him that he then has to disprove, if he is indeed unfit. With women it is exactly the opposite. And other women seem to be giving it to them the hardest.

I can testify working in a female-dominated field-- a lot of places are staffed with under-educated, under-stimulated women (meaning: they are not given the educational opportunities and career support that the kind of intelligent, creative people attracted to childcare work deserve, and there resulting frustration of having a load of talent that is not being used to optimum drives them to pretty much cannibalize each other, to pecking-order themselves to death. Not all centers, but enough for me to notice a trend.

So picture one of those women-- barely enough cash to scrape together a decent working wardrobe, nowhere near enough money to get those perfecting facials or hair treatments or anything more than the cheap crap makeup that slides off your face right away (and doing the kid of work where, if you are really doing your job, you are supposed to get messy anyway)-- she's not even getting recognized on merit in her dysfunctional little work venue(assuming it's like the one in the article), now she has to think about getting her look perfect? Yeesh.

Posted by comet (# 10353) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
First of all, of topic a bit, I was going to PM this, but hell with it-- FUCK YEAH! This is the kind of shit that makes Hell really worth reading! Fuck that namby-pamby gumball troll shit, two awesome women throwing down? Hold on to your fucking hats!

OK, back to the event...

and on that note... I got nothin'. no disagreement at the moment. We'll have to find something better to scrap about.

What's your feeling on Marvel vs DC? [Biased]

quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
I chose the word neurotic because ..well in reading the kid of assessments you were providing about (basically) any women who took issue with the situation seemed to imply that. It's their hang up, end of.

I went back and read what I wrote and I see where it could be taken that way. I get a good rant on, I'm known to generalize just a tad. Totally not what I meant. my bad.

quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Again, my respect grew for Obama because he chose not to leave it at that. Again, I think it waters down that stand he took to say, "And anyway, he really didn't NEED to apologize." Obviously he though he did. I presume he gave the matter serious thought and wasn't just "spinning"

[...]

But I also think he's very good art taking on board other people's points of view-- it's been one of his strengths. I think he proved himself with this.

and THAT, my friends, is why he is president and I'm not. Presidential types see when an apology is the best route, where I'd be the one to say, "get the fuck over yourselves!"

quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
And I repeat-- while I totally, TOTALLY agree with you that we women need to dig in and support each other-- you and I have shared enough war stories for me to say "I know you know what I mean"-- it does really help when a man in a position of power chimes in with his support as well.

I'd say it doesn't hurt, but at the end of the day if we're trying for women holding themselves up and making it right within our community, then it matters fuck all what the men say. it's up to us. At some point, we need to quit caring what the men think at all.

(settle in children, it's story time)

My mom was very involved in the civil rights movement in the Bay Area in the 60s. She was your stereotypical 60s hippie - white child of privilege who was using her first amendment rights to try and fix some shit. good on her.

She volunteered at some community center in SF, teaching literacy and such. there were some civil rights gatherings and she attended, raising her pale, freckled fist with the rest.

One day one of the local leaders said to her, "Go home, honky. This ain't your fight." At first she was hurt and offended and felt all marginalized. And then she realized the guy was right. The people in that community needed to do it themselves. otherwise, it would never work. if you need outside verification (no matter how benign) to declare your equality, then you undercut your own argument.

so I feel like saying, hey brothers - support us by not making things worse. otherwise, we got this.

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :

quote:
Originally posted by comet:

so I feel like saying, hey brothers - support us by not making things worse. otherwise, we got this.

Fuckin' A.

(Still, respect to the guys who try.)

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :

quote:
Originally posted by comet:

What's your feeling on Marvel vs DC?

Fantagraphics,I'm afraid. [Big Grin]

Posted by Leorning Cniht (# 17564) on :

quote:
Originally posted by comet:

so I feel like saying, hey brothers - support us by not making things worse. otherwise, we got this.

I think if someone's being an asshole, you need to tell him to stop - whether or not you're the target of his assholitude, and whether his particular brand of ass is sexist, racist, or whatever else-ist.

When it comes to leading the fight against societal assholery, I suspect that Mr. "Honky go Home" had a point.

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :

Well, yeah and in terms of people in positions of changing policy, I am sure we expect them to speak out about assholery, whatever background they come from.

Malcolm X didn't want white folk joining Nation of Islam, but he sure had a thing or two to say to Truman.

[ 14. April 2013, 22:35: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]

Posted by comet (# 10353) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
As per the article, the sense I get is that, when faced with a new boss, there is a baseline of assumed competency that is given him that he then has to disprove, if he is indeed unfit. With women it is exactly the opposite. And other women seem to be giving it to them the hardest.

I have not found this to be my experience, exactly. I first was in a position of management when I was 22. I came across some of what you say, but I found the issue to be a lot more about my age and their lack of belief in my experience. Frankly, I'd probably feel the same way if I found myself with a 22 year old boss of either gender.

I've mostly worked in male-dominated fields (until recently). my biggest challenge has not been a distrust/lack of faith because of my gender, but the simple "hey baby" routine. What would probably be considered sexual harassment in the rest of the world but I always just handled it in my own very special style. [Big Grin]

I have had bosses who were complete douchebags, for sure. IME, this was because in that particular profession I was very good, and went from rookie to kicking ass and winning awards in less than a year. it was an innate talent thing, something I wasn't even aware of before hand. A few bosses got jealous as I essentially flew past them.

in really looking back and analyzing it, I think my youth and gender if anything helped my case. if I'd been a guy, at least one of them would probably have roared and tried to kick my ass. because I was a woman I think he really had no idea how to handle his sense of inadequacy.

and that's another point. We need to be ready for the douchebags if we want real equality. So, if this particular boss was truly gender-blind, he probably should have tried to take a swing at me just as he would have with a male subordinate who made him feel inferior. Not that I couldn't have handled that! But I benefited if anything from his preconceived notions on gender.

I've also been the target of female-on-female bullying in the work place. But honestly, my being female was secondary - her issue was this very convoluted parenting jealousy that was so unbelievably fucked up. She was sexist in the name of her kids. basically, she hated me because my daughter is more beautiful and successful than her similarly aged daughter in her eyes. I think her daughter is lovely.

I still say that was one of the most bizarre situations ever.

but now I'm babbling. the point to all this is I guess that I have not seen this woman vs woman work dynamic, but I'm also in a very non-mainstream part of the world so I have no credible experience in that regard.

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :

quote:
Originally posted by comet:

I've also been the target of female-on-female bullying in the work place. But honestly, my being female was secondary - her issue was this very convoluted parenting jealousy that was so unbelievably fucked up. She was sexist in the name of her kids. basically, she hated me because my daughter is more beautiful and successful than her similarly aged daughter in her eyes. I think her daughter is lovely.

This doesn't sound like Mommy Wars to you? (Which is indeed a female competition thing. And good for you for not buying in.)

I will add, though, that in situations where the sexes seem balanced-- for me, and sport oriented afterschool care I worked at that was basically half-and half , and the TV station I volunteer at which is mostly guys but a healthy number of women-- this crap seems to really die down. Maybe having a concrete example in front of you that everyone is capable of doing the same job knocks it out.

Or maybe working in Guy World helps you appreciate women more. [Big Grin]

[ 14. April 2013, 22:43: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]

Posted by comet (# 10353) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Well, yeah and in terms of people in positions of changing policy, I am sure we expect them to speak out about assholery, whatever background they come from.

Malcolm X didn't want white folk joining Nation of Islam, but he sure had a thing or two to say to Truman.

somewhat different to what I'm saying, though. The men in power needed to give us the vote, once upon a time. it was a bunch of white people who decided to free the slaves. It has to start somewhere. But I believe we're already there. our step-up has been given, the rest is up to us.

quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:

quote:
Originally posted by comet:

What's your feeling on Marvel vs DC?

Fantagraphics,I'm afraid.

Respect! Still, I'm a marvel girl all the way. though I did decide to give a little love to Image back in the 90s and my fondness holds.

Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :

quote:
Originally posted by comet:

She volunteered at some community center in SF, teaching literacy and such. there were some civil rights gatherings and she attended, raising her pale, freckled fist with the rest.

One day one of the local leaders said to her, "Go home, honky. This ain't your fight." At first she was hurt and offended and felt all marginalized. And then she realized the guy was right. The people in that community needed to do it themselves. otherwise, it would never work. if you need outside verification (no matter how benign) to declare your equality, then you undercut your own argument.

so I feel like saying, hey brothers - support us by not making things worse. otherwise, we got this.

See, but I disagree. It isn't your fight vs. my fight. It isn't her fight vs. his fight. It is our fight, every damn bit of it. White people supporting Black rights, straight people supporting gay rights, they are important. As long as we see us vs. them, them still aren't equal. Yes, the afflicted community needs to stand, but not standing alone helps.
The guy in your example was a prick. Your mom is way cool in my book.

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :

"The only us versus them should be decent people versus indecent people." --Alex Bennett.

Posted by Gramps49 (# 16378) on :

Really, I think who are holding Obama to a higher standard are themselves rather racist.

Shortly after Obama became president you started to see Tea Party people picturing him with a bone in his nose.

I started seeing posts of people who complained all Obama liked to do is PARTY ON.

Then there is the ongoing comments about him being chained to the teleprompter.

Interesting how Southern Republicans have moved to stop everything Obama has proposed even if the proposals first came from the Republican side in the first place.

A lot of Republicans fell because of their sexist comments in the last election, now this is a chance to strike back. Obama, btw, apologized about the remarks, many of the Republicans still do not think they said anything wrong.

No matter what Obama says or does it is wrong because he is black--well, half black.

You can really see this when people say they disagree with Obama's policies; but, when challenged, they cannot defend their position.

This weekend a new movie was released about Jackie Robinson "42". Go see it. I think it shows why some whites still cannot get over having black people in leading roles.

Posted by comet (# 10353) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
This doesn't sound like Mommy Wars to you? (Which is indeed a female competition thing. And good for you for not buying in.)

okay, but it's not endemic of some societal dysfunction. it's one really fucked up person who is shortchanging her kids and expressing her issues by trying to make me miserable. Bullying is not a gender issue, and assholes come in all shapes and sizes.

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
First of all, of topic a bit, I was going to PM this, but hell with it-- FUCK YEAH! This is the kind of shit that makes Hell really worth reading! Fuck that namby-pamby gumball troll shit, two awesome women throwing down? Hold on to your fucking hats!

*Goes back to bed*

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :

OK, you see there? You see how we are marginalized? [Big Grin]

(Have a nice wank, orf.)

Posted by comet (# 10353) on :

quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
See, but I disagree. It isn't your fight vs. my fight. It isn't her fight vs. his fight. It is our fight, every damn bit of it. White people supporting Black rights, straight people supporting gay rights, they are important. As long as we see us vs. them, them still aren't equal. Yes, the afflicted community needs to stand, but not standing alone helps.
The guy in your example was a prick.

he was certainly rude, but I don't think he was wrong.

a dear friend of mine is black. When he first moved here, he came across some racism. apparently it was nothing compared to what he'd come across growing up in the south, but it was something. the rest of us white folks could defend him all the day long, and it does something. but what really worked was when he got out there in the community, started taking care of local troubled kids, and got to know people. I can shout that he's a good guy all I want, but he's the only one who could prove it. And he did.

Same goes for homosexuals. I can defend the rights of my homosexual friends all I like, but they are the only ones who can BE the proof that the stereotypes are wrong. and that's how change happens. Hell yes, I'd vote for marriage equality and all the rest - but for society to get the fuck over their fears and biases, they need to SEE the truth. Just like I couldn't prove that not all black men are dangerous, I also can't prove that not all homosexuals are perverts.

I CAN, however, LIVE the proof that women deserve their place at the top no matter their appearance or anything else. and I do. and will.

quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Your mom is way cool in my book.

you have no idea. she's amazing.

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :

quote:
Originally posted by comet:
Bullying is not a gender issue, and assholes come in all shapes and sizes.

Bullies reach for any tool they can, and if gender is one, they will use it. That might not apply to your particular story-- in fact, I'm seeing why it doesn't-- but bullying in general can certainly be a gender issue.

Adn I'm kind of with lilbuddha in that sense-- if the tool is available, then it does help if anyone-- gender notwithstanding-- tries to take that tool away.

I totally hear what you are saying about your friend, but maybe there is a reason he moved to your town in the first place. Maybe he knew he would have some sort of chance to prove himself at all.

[ 14. April 2013, 23:24: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]

Posted by Gwai (# 11076) on :

I think the guy was right and wrong. I have had to learn too that I can't fight my gay friends' battle for their rights for them, but sometimes they do want/need my support. I can't do it all, but I can be back-up and a real part of the fight.

Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :

quote:
Originally posted by comet:
a dear friend of mine is black. When he first moved here, he came across some racism. apparently it was nothing compared to what he'd come across growing up in the south, but it was something. the rest of us white folks could defend him all the day long, and it does something. but what really worked was when he got out there in the community, started taking care of local troubled kids, and got to know people. I can shout that he's a good guy all I want, but he's the only one who could prove it. And he did.

This phenomena is part of the reason why gay marriage is seeing more acceptance.
However, in your mother's era, white participation quickened the progress. Take the famous case of the three civil rights workers murdered in Mississippi. That two of them were white may be the only reason the case was investigated. During the investigation, US Navy divers and FBI agents found the bodies of eight black men whose disappearances had gone unnoticed outside their own communities.
Yes, people should be willing to stand for themselves. This does not preclude accepting participation from others in their struggles.

Again, these struggles belong to all of us. I do not ask for your hand to help me up, but I will not offer disdain for your shoulder next to mine.

Edited to try to fix wonky link. Didn't work.

[Edited by host to fix wonky link. Problem is underbars in Wiki links. Use tinyurl to de-wonk links.]

[ 16. April 2013, 04:55: Message edited by: RooK ]

Posted by comet (# 10353) on :

I'm not disagreeing, and I'm the first to stand up when the need arrises. my friend mentioned on the last page - he was threatened once by a bunch of out-of-towner racists assholes. I was the first to dive in and threaten to eviscerate each and every one of those pricks with my teeth if they so much and gave him a sideways glance. (I was the first, but for the record everyone in the vicinity joined in, fuckin' love this town) I have kicked people out of my bar on more than one occasion for racist or homophobic comments. I turned in a cop and testified against him for racism when I was just 16.

I don't sit by and let shit happen. but like you said, I'm the supportive shoulder, I'm not the leader of the charge. I can't be.

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :

quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
During the investigation, US Navy divers and FBI agents found the bodies of eight black men whose disappearances had gone unnoticed outside their own communities.

Wow. I don't remember ever hearing that. That's pretty awful.

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :

quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:

Again, these struggles belong to all of us. I do not ask for your hand to help me up, but I will not offer disdain for your shoulder next to mine.

That really is a perfect way to put it.

[ 15. April 2013, 06:04: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :

Completely un--Hellish but I felt it made a good wrap-up.

And Flausa sent it to me-- so respect. [Big Grin]

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :

That was kind of fascinating.

Sometimes, being required to click on links here has its rewards.

[ 16. April 2013, 23:16: Message edited by: orfeo ]

Posted by Tortuf (# 3784) on :

That requires a new thread. I just need to think about it.

Posted by Lyda*Rose (# 4544) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Completely un--Hellish but I felt it made a good wrap-up.

And Flausa sent it to me-- so respect.

Posted by duchess (# 2764) on :

Others have said it better than I could, but why let that stop me from posting one more remark?

I don't find it offensive at all that President Obama added a "hey she's the best looking" comment to, as he had already given her valuation for her accomplishments and accolades. It was a passing thought it seems. And guys seem to be pretty visual creatures.

If he had said "..and hey, I'd tap that!" then I would be fairly disappointed. Thank God he didn't since Michelle might beat his ass his those strong beautiful arms of her. His wife btw is gorgeous. I say that as a heterosexual woman.

As also, he's is pretty nice to look at. I enjoy looking at him and listening to him. Glad I voted for him. And yeah, I noticed his policies and I like almost all of them. [Big Grin]

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