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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Forget gun shows -- just buy a printer.
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The Riv
Shipmate
# 3553
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Posted
Successful test of 3-D Printed Firearm
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"I don't know whether I like it, but it's what I meant." Ralph Vaughan Williams
"Riv, you've done a much better job communicating your passion than your point. I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about." Tom Clune
Posts: 2749 | From: Too far South, USA. I really want to move. | Registered: Nov 2002
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The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
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Posted
Seems like this puts the nail in the coffin of any thought of effective gun control.
3D printing of RPGs, anyone?
I'm back to add: What's this doing in Hell?
[ 06. May 2013, 19:53: Message edited by: The Silent Acolyte ]
Posts: 7462 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
I started a thread in Purg, but it belongs equally here, ISTM.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Sarkycow
La belle Dame sans merci
# 1012
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Posted
Why does it belong equally here?
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“Just because your voice reaches halfway around the world doesn't mean you are wiser than when it reached only to the end of the bar.”
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Jay-Emm
Shipmate
# 11411
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sarkycow:
Why does it belong equally here?
Because (I'm not sure about the specific guy in question), the motivation of these guys pretty explicitly translates to ensuring that when the 'good guys' need to imitate the Boston guys they can.
A position most of us don't like, and it becoming more reality* is a bit depressing.
And a predictable side effect of this otherwise great tech, that one wishes thought and sensible motivations would assist in making ill use difficult.
*ok in it's current form this would really only be useful for: convenient disposable forensic-reduced execution weapons, and excitement over how amazing tech is (if mythbusters had done it, the complaint would be different). But that's it's current form...
Posts: 1643 | Registered: May 2006
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
I don't think so. Anyone can get the components to make a bomb or has them already, just requires assembly, with instructions freely available. What's remarkable is that most of us don't do these things.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Jay-Emm
Shipmate
# 11411
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
I don't think so. Anyone can get the components to make a bomb or has them already, just requires assembly, with instructions freely available. What's remarkable is that most of us don't do these things.
Yes, but I' be disappointed/concerned if (as) someone was distributing convenient bomb designs to guard our sovereign space.
Historical/Scientific information would be different, and it might illustrate what not to do. (although some prudence would make sense).
Posts: 1643 | Registered: May 2006
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
I haven't heard anyone discuss zip guns for years, but of course wikipedia has info. They can shoot bullets or shotgun shells. Without saying too much, I'll just say "boy scout" and the part of the promise that says "wise in the use of their resources" and consider that what was once a project toward a badge, well, not so much presently.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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comet
Snowball in Hell
# 10353
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Posted
Pretty damn mellow, anti-gunners. Where's the froth? The rending of garments?
At least try.
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Evil Dragon Lady, Breaker of Men's Constitutions
"It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning.” -Calvin
Posts: 17024 | From: halfway between Seduction and Peril | Registered: Sep 2005
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sarkycow:
Why does it belong equally here?
For this line from the creator of the weapon.
quote:
This is about enabling individuals to create their own sovereign space.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
I'd to like to take my sovereign space and insert it into his sovereign space until he screams.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Well, people who complain about the concept of the nation state may live to see their wishes fulfilled.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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The Riv
Shipmate
# 3553
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Posted
it's just maddening that in the wake of failed gun control legislatiion we have this technology -- or, at least the plans for it -- about to go online for free downloading. Crazy. I wonder, if the only thing that stops a bad guy with a 3-D printer is a good guy with a 3-D printer.
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"I don't know whether I like it, but it's what I meant." Ralph Vaughan Williams
"Riv, you've done a much better job communicating your passion than your point. I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about." Tom Clune
Posts: 2749 | From: Too far South, USA. I really want to move. | Registered: Nov 2002
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jbohn
Shipmate
# 8753
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jay-Emm:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
I don't think so. Anyone can get the components to make a bomb or has them already, just requires assembly, with instructions freely available. What's remarkable is that most of us don't do these things.
Yes, but I' be disappointed/concerned if (as) someone was distributing convenient bomb designs to guard our sovereign space.
Historical/Scientific information would be different, and it might illustrate what not to do. (although some prudence would make sense).
Try here for pretty much all you need to know. While the intent at Wikipedia is (presumably) not to "guard our sovereign space", the basics are all there. As they are in any public library you like, generally.
No_prophet makes a great point here - it's not that no one knows how to do it, it's that most folks don't, for a variety of reasons.
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We are punished by our sins, not for them.
--Elbert Hubbard
Posts: 989 | From: East of Eden, west of St. Paul | Registered: Nov 2004
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sarkycow:
Why does it belong equally here?
Jeez Loueez! The class of people they let post on the Ship these days!! ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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Irish dogs needing homes! http://www.dogactionwelfaregroup.ie/ Greyhounds and Lurchers are shipped over to England for rehoming too!
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
I blame the Admins. Bunch of slackers. This would never have happened back when Laura and Scot were running the show.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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JB
Independent Thinker
# 1776
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Posted
Anarchist's Cookbook has been around for years. It has inspired co[ies and web connunities. But note the author's comments.
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You live, you learn
You learn, you live
Posts: 2588 | From: Land of Enchantment | Registered: Jun 2001
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MrsM
Apprentice
# 14940
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
I'd to like to take my sovereign space and insert it into his sovereign space until he screams.
Why does it always come back to penetrating something guys?
Posts: 14 | From: the dining room, normally | Registered: Jul 2009
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by MrsM:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
I'd to like to take my sovereign space and insert it into his sovereign space until he screams.
Why does it always come back to penetrating something guys?
I took the basic notion of invading personal space and combined it with a moment of crankiness I was having against right-wing conservative homophobes. You had to be there.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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JB
Independent Thinker
# 1776
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Posted
My attempt to edit my previous post timed out. Here's the second try:
Anarchist Cookbook has been around for years. It has inspired copy-cats and web communities (a web search can find some; McAfee will warn you not to click on them). But note the author's comments under "Editorial Reviews".
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You live, you learn
You learn, you live
Posts: 2588 | From: Land of Enchantment | Registered: Jun 2001
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Riv:
I wonder, if the only thing that stops a bad guy with a 3-D printer is a good guy with a 3-D printer.
A power failure would also stop him.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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MrsM
Apprentice
# 14940
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Posted
Anyway, you just know that thing was designed to work with a Mac. So we're fine, I mean, as if a terrorist uses a Mac!
Posts: 14 | From: the dining room, normally | Registered: Jul 2009
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Riv:
I wonder, if the only thing that stops a bad guy with a 3-D printer is a good guy with a 3-D printer.
I'm stealing that for my next book ![[Cool]](cool.gif)
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by MrsM:
Anyway, you just know that thing was designed to work with a Mac. So we're fine, I mean, as if a terrorist uses a Mac!
Suicide bombers in Lebanon in the 1980s were typically middle-class, better-educated than average and earning more than the average wage.
This may or may not have implications for your theory.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Jay-Emm
Shipmate
# 11411
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by jbohn:
quote:
Originally posted by Jay-Emm:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
I don't think so. Anyone can get the components to make a bomb or has them already, just requires assembly, with instructions freely available. What's remarkable is that most of us don't do these things.
Yes, but I' be disappointed/concerned if (as) someone was distributing convenient bomb designs to guard our sovereign space.
Historical/Scientific information would be different, and it might illustrate what not to do. (although some prudence would make sense).
Try here for pretty much all you need to know. While the intent at Wikipedia is (presumably) not to "guard our sovereign space", the basics are all there. As they are in any public library you like, generally.
No_prophet makes a great point here - it's not that no one knows how to do it, it's that most folks don't, for a variety of reasons.
That's actually a pretty good example of the borderline Hist/Sci aspect.
If you read it though, it's actually missing quite a bit, compared to the analogue (which would as well as a pipe-which wiki does give info, suggest an appropriate seal and components-which wiki doesn't, and the prices of the explosive ingredients* - wiki does give some info of some not to use).
You could make something, but you'd effectively be reinventing with some hints, and all the problems and risks of setting red flags or it literally blowing up in your face, as supposed to the convenience of a kit.
The tension can be seen that while several people have used pipe bombs presumably independently to devastating effect (see the article linked), several have blown themselves up (again),and a fair number are UDV (who lets be honest, had better info than the library).
But yes, it's good that many of us don't do bad things. Either with gun or bomb. The problem is making the others stand out and being able to stop them.
*although in the first draft, ones so ineffective to only prove the concept and requiring fancy milling machinary. In practical terms I agree this doesn't seem scary.
Posts: 1643 | Registered: May 2006
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by The Riv:
I wonder, if the only thing that stops a bad guy with a 3-D printer is a good guy with a 3-D printer.
A power failure would also stop him.
Better remember to print a hand-cranked clockwork generator first ![[Razz]](tongue.gif) Maybe the government can restrict their use by only allowing licensed fabricators to buy wire suitable for winding into coils. Then the Bad Fabricators will have to move to places where they can do it all by solar power.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
I just read a local version of the news story, and I'm seriously experiencing the kind of urges to do physical violence to this guy that demonstrate fairly well why weapons shouldn't be easily available.
I can't decide which quote made me crankier. Was it this bit of moronic non-thinking?
quote:
"I recognise that the tool might be used to harm other people - that's what it is - it's a gun," Mr Wilson said.
"But... I don't think that's a reason not to do it or put it out there."
Or was it this bit of 'fuck the law'?
quote:
"We thought how interesting would it be not just to 3D print a gun, but to open source it and then allow anyone in the world to 3D print a gun, regardless of whatever their laws had to say"
Oh yeah. I'm sure now. It was the second. FUCK the rule of law. FUCK the consideration of the pros and cons of different kinds of people having access to weapons. FUCK assessment and debate of control measures. FUCK licensing. Wouldn't it be really INTERESTING to just bypass all of that?
You know what else would be interesting? Dissecting your brain extremely slowly to see if there's something in the structure that explains why you are the kind of complete and utter turd who espouses all this stuff about anarchy while living comfortably off society's infrastructure. If you want to live in a state of lawlessness, go find yourself a patch of wilderness with no publicly funded services whatsoever, generate your own fucking electricity for your fucking printer and see how long you actually survive without any of the things that the law provides for you. We can probably find you a spare spot in Somalia where you and your buddies can bet on which one of you will kill and eat the others.
EDIT: Yes people, I fucking hate these sorts of anarchists with a passion. I write laws for a living, what did you expect?
[ 07. May 2013, 17:42: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
Looks to me like it's just make suicide a whole lot easier for the plastic model kit enthusiast ![[Devil]](graemlins/devil.gif)
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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Sarkycow
La belle Dame sans merci
# 1012
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Posted
Ans
![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif) Marvin
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
I'd to like to take my sovereign space and insert it into his sovereign space until he screams.
But maybe he wouldn't scream ![[Biased]](wink.gif) Would that help your cranky mood?
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“Just because your voice reaches halfway around the world doesn't mean you are wiser than when it reached only to the end of the bar.”
Posts: 10787 | Registered: Jul 2001
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John Holding
Coffee and Cognac
# 158
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Posted
Perhaps we could lend Opheo Erin's rusty farm auger from the Ship museum.
John
Posts: 5929 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: May 2001
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
Nice. Because the lyre really isn't sharp and pointy enough.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
It's interesting to note that it has become rather effective to chase down child porno "users" (whatever that means ![[Projectile]](graemlins/puke2.gif) ), it's just a technological and procedural problem to figure out how to track down this sort of thing.
Probably they don't need to bother in America, where one of these would be great to get with your O'Happy Meal or your cereal box of co-co crickets.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
It's interesting to note that it has become rather effective to chase down child porno "users" (whatever that means ), it's just a technological and procedural problem to figure out how to track down this sort of thing.
Probably they don't need to bother in America, where one of these would be great to get with your O'Happy Meal or your cereal box of co-co crickets.
I'd have a better idea how to respond to this post if I understood what the fuck it has to do with 3D printers.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Orfeo, don't be an ignoramus
In fairness, I posted a day or so before the media began reporting how it is done re 3-D guns, though the porno info is readily available. But rocket launcher science it ain't
Files have digital fingerprints, all of them due to the info they contain. I personally use md5sums (a form of hash, again use your friendly neighbourhood search engine). Child porn pictures are digital, 3-D gun blueprints are digital. Any digital material can be traced. Even small changes to files vary digital hash in predictable ways such that they can also be traced.
Read on: D-printed plastic gun faces U.S. government crackdown
quote:
CBC, from above link
Alarmed by the availability of the blueprints, Legary has developed a "hash," a kind of digital fingerprint that would detect the presence of 3D printing instructions for plastic pistols....
So we want to be able to detect those files and remove them from the networks and from the environments before they have a chance to be printed … and control the printer from producing these weapons in the first place.
[ 11. May 2013, 16:05: Message edited by: no prophet ]
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by comet:
Pretty damn mellow, anti-gunners. Where's the froth? The rending of garments?
At least try.
When a spotty teenager makes himself a cache of plastic guns and plugs a classroom of kids we might manage a bit of frothing comet.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
Files have digital fingerprints, all of them due to the info they contain. I personally use md5sums (a form of hash, again use your friendly neighbourhood search engine). Child porn pictures are digital, 3-D gun blueprints are digital. Any digital material can be traced. Even small changes to files vary digital hash in predictable ways such that they can also be traced.
[/QB][/QUOTE]
360 degrees wrong. The idea of using hashes like MD5 for digital fingerprinting is precisely that small changes to files change the hash in ways that are hard to predict. In fact the easiest way to find the new hash is to make one from the entire changed file. If it were not so then you could predict changes in encrypted files by comparing differences in their checksums or digital fingerprints which kind of misses the point. It ought to be impossible to make a hash without having the whole original file in your possession. (In fact there are weaknesses in MD5 that might allow this to be done in some cases, but so it goes)
There is software to detect slightly obfuscated versions of things like digital photographs or music but it doesn't work on hashes it works on the original files. Its basically the same as the software you can use to search the Net for pictures that are similar to other pictures. Californian lawyer-bots use it to spam people who download unauthorised copies of films and music with threats of legal action.
If it *did* use the hashes/checksums/signatures and so on all you need to do is strip them out to make an anonymous file. The purpose of somethign like and MD6 signature on a piece of source code is to prove to the user who downloads it that it is the original thing. Once they have downloaded it that can discard the hash anyway.
And it is just source code. The machine-readable designs for the 3d printer I mean. Its not any kind of image or digitised "blueprint". Just a sequence of words and numbers. Trivial to obfuscate if you really wanted to.
Anyway the really scary thing is what happens when the 3D printer can make a complete 3D printer?
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
Files have digital fingerprints, all of them due to the info they contain. I personally use md5sums (a form of hash, again use your friendly neighbourhood search engine). Child porn pictures are digital, 3-D gun blueprints are digital. Any digital material can be traced. Even small changes to files vary digital hash in predictable ways such that they can also be traced.
Oh yeah. That's going to be stunningly helpful in tracing the actual gun used in an assault, isn't it?
Idiot.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
Orfeo, don't be an ignoramus
Of all the people on this thread that I might call an ignoramus, orfeo isn't one of them. Asshole sometimes. Jerk, betimes. But ignoramus? Not bloody often.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
This lets anyone with the right 3-D printer make a simple kind of single-use gun - basically, not much more than a tube. But as I've mentioned before, something like an AK-47 is easy enough for any passable machinist with a reasonable metal shop to produce. The fact that this is plastic, and won't trip a metal detector will cause some excitement, but in terms of practical threat, this just isn't a very useful weapon.
But let's say someone designs a better weapon. A plastic multi-barrel Derringer is certainly doable.
You still have to get ammunition. Making bullets and casings isn't too hard, but making smokeless powder is difficult. Gunpowder is easy enough to make, although not without risk - I'd lay reasonable odds on someone trying to mill gunpowder injuring himself before producing anything useful.
In general, a crude, basic gun is easy to make, but ammunition is harder.
Similarly, this guy, a truck driver who is well worth talking to if you get the chance, has built a replica of Little Boy (the atomic bomb dropped on Hiroshima). It's not terribly hard - the really complicated bit is making enriched U-235 (which he doesn't have!)
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Hmm, why would one need to make ammunition? Not that hard to acquire in the US, yeah? If one cared to, buying the shells and the powder and the lead is not so difficult either.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Hmm, why would one need to make ammunition? Not that hard to acquire in the US, yeah? If one cared to, buying the shells and the powder and the lead is not so difficult either.
Sure, but if you're in the US, acquiring a very much better gun is equally easy. Not a non-metallic gun, but I'm not convinced that actually matters. Yes, maybe you could smuggle this plastic thing into a courthouse or somewhere and shoot the judge, but you'll get immediately taken down, so you don't actually lose anything over acquiring decent weapons, and shooting the cop on duty by the metal detector first.
More concern was being expressed about this upthread in relation to countries where weapons and ammunition are not readily available.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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molopata
The Ship's jack
# 9933
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Posted
But we know that the US is kind of a lost cause. It this whole thing not actually more about the other half of the world?
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... The Respectable
Posts: 1718 | From: the abode of my w@ndering mind | Registered: Aug 2005
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
If someone starts printing sten guns we will have a problem.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Jay-Emm
Shipmate
# 11411
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
If someone starts printing sten guns we will have a problem.
Although Sten Gun's actually were designed to be easily mass manufactured in 'primitive' settings.
(see I have learnt something from the thread)
Although only around 4 million Guns were made by the UK during WW2. Around 6.5 million women were working in Civilian war work (I'm not sure what proportion would be actually making guns, PANFMA 650 that is 1:10000 works out to 3 guns a person-day). At war footing, full mass production etc...
Posts: 1643 | Registered: May 2006
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Jay-Emm
Shipmate
# 11411
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Posted
From the wiki as it's interesting about the sten.
sten
5 man hours in Britain.
28,000 made by Germany at a factory.
200 were made each a Danish resistance group in a bicycle repair shop and a group in a construction company.
Poland had >23 underground workshops and made 2000.
I'm not sure where that puts theories about underground design, making weapons against Nazi's in Denmark/Poland is different to making weapon's against the police in the UK or USA. But it swings both ways.
E.g. at least that at least one of the Polish ones were made with legal elements (e.g. from hospital equipment) would it have been so easier to source these from innocent civilians in a free country or from not so innocent civilians under a foreign power.
And clearly a factory and legality helps.
Posts: 1643 | Registered: May 2006
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
Even here in post-industrial Britain I know people with metal-working lathes and other tools. One bloke I know has made cylinders and pistons for motorbike engines in his shed. If you can do that you can make guns a lot better than anything plastic.
And this plastic gun *isn't* plastic when its ready for firing. There is metal. It still needs ammunition and a firing pin and some stuff. So its not going to be smugglable onto airliners and other high-security locations. A bit of a storm in a teacup.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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The Riv
Shipmate
# 3553
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Molopata The Rebel:
But we know that the US is kind of a lost cause. It this whole thing not actually more about the other half of the world?
You give us too much credit. Half?! The Chinese beg to differ.
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"I don't know whether I like it, but it's what I meant." Ralph Vaughan Williams
"Riv, you've done a much better job communicating your passion than your point. I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about." Tom Clune
Posts: 2749 | From: Too far South, USA. I really want to move. | Registered: Nov 2002
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