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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Etymological Evangelical the bigot
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
In this thread you have degraded yourself to the level of prejudiced bigot. You even boldfaced "retarded remark". Explain yourself and how you hate large swaths of humanity.
I have no idea what your shipname means, but it must not mean you are Christian. Explain yourself.
quote:
Originally posted by Etymological Evangelical:
Your comment is the most retarded remark I have read on the Ship in all the time I have been here (and that is saying something!)
Thank-you EE for being as insensitive a whackjob as Ann Coulter for posting the same way as she tweeted.
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem, so get educated, and apologise EE, and do it now.
I paraphrase the link below. You wanted to belittle the comment you posted about EE by linking it to people you perceive as being stupid and dimwitted. Like the man who wrote the letter, you assume that people will understand your insult. I don't. If you would be comfortable making the remark using the word "nigger" then I guess I'd understand.
Man With Down Syndrome Writes Letter To Conservative About Her Use Of Word ‘Retard’.
quote:
A better person than EE wrote this
I'm a 30 year old man with Down syndrome who has struggled with the public's perception that an intellectual disability means I'm dumb and shallow. I am neither of those things...
Etymological Evangelical, explain yourself.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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EtymologicalEvangelical
Shipmate
# 15091
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Posted
Being called a "dangerous sociopath" for criticising someone who desires other people dead, simply because he disagrees with their understanding of marriage is a view that is insane.
OK, I am sorry for using the word 'retarded'. I used it as a synonym for insane, and probably wrongly. I was wrong. But I was also very angry, especially at the sheer evil of some of the views and the craven hypocrisy I see on this site, which you self-righteous pseudo-moralisers never seem to pick up on.
I have apologised. If you can't understand someone's anger, then fucking well grow up.
By the way... don't you bloody well preach to me about vulnerable or disabled people. I probably know more about that than you do.
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You can argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome': but you neither can nor need argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome, but I'm not saying this is true'. CS Lewis
Posts: 3625 | From: South Coast of England | Registered: Sep 2009
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
Being called a "dangerous sociopath" for criticising someone who desires other people dead, simply because he disagrees with their understanding of marriage is a view that is insane.
OK, I am sorry for using the word 'retarded'. I used it as a synonym for insane, and probably wrongly. I was wrong. But I was also very angry, especially at the sheer evil of some of the views and the craven hypocrisy I see on this site, which you self-righteous pseudo-moralisers never seem to pick up on.
I have apologised. If you can't understand someone's anger, then fucking well grow up.
By the way... don't you bloody well preach to me about vulnerable or disabled people. I probably know more about that than you do.
You seem to know more about everything than anybody else does, you insufferable prig.
If you want to know what a self-righteous pseudo-moraliser looks like, get a mirror.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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EtymologicalEvangelical
Shipmate
# 15091
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais
You seem to know more about everything than anybody else does, you insufferable prig.
If you want to know what a self-righteous pseudo-moraliser looks like, get a mirror.
I frankly don't care what you think. You're just a smug and pompous nobody, who sits on the sidelines with no opinion about anything.
There's a lot of anger expressed about a lot of issues on this site. The word 'retarded' is extreme, I admit, but, in context, it was used to describe the sheer insanity of a deeply offensive remark. There is nothing in what I wrote that was an attack on people with learning disabilities (and it takes a particularly twisted and perverse mind to think that it was). If you can't understand context, then I pity you. And if you are so self-satisfied in life, and so cosy in your little champagne socialist world (or whatever pathetic little hole you live in), that you cannot understand the strength of people's feelings, then God help you.
Marvin wants people dead who don't agree with him. I called him out on that in anger. And then I am called a "dangerous sociopath". Who is the dangerous sociopath and bigot? The one who is shocked and sickened by the lust for other people's deaths, or the one who expresses such lusts?
If people like you cannot understand this, and cannot understand the strength of anger associated with this, then I think your mothers shouldn't let you out of your bedrooms in the morning.
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You can argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome': but you neither can nor need argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome, but I'm not saying this is true'. CS Lewis
Posts: 3625 | From: South Coast of England | Registered: Sep 2009
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
If you can't understand someone's anger, then fucking well grow up.
#irony
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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jbohn
Shipmate
# 8753
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
If you can't understand someone's anger, then fucking well grow up.
#irony
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
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We are punished by our sins, not for them.
--Elbert Hubbard
Posts: 989 | From: East of Eden, west of St. Paul | Registered: Nov 2004
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais
You seem to know more about everything than anybody else does, you insufferable prig.
If you want to know what a self-righteous pseudo-moraliser looks like, get a mirror.
I frankly don't care what you think.
If you don't care what I think, then why reply? Furthermore, why participate in debate. I doubt anyone would miss you (except Gamaliel, and he's taking a break).
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
There's a lot of anger expressed about a lot of issues on this site. The word 'retarded' is extreme, I admit, but, in context, it was used to describe the sheer insanity of a deeply offensive remark. There is nothing in what I wrote that was an attack on people with learning disabilities
Uh, if you think retarded refers to "sheer insanity" then yes there is something deeply and horribly offensive in what you wrote. You're saying that retarded people are insane. Which is revolting.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Dark Knight
Super Zero
# 9415
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Posted
Do we really need two threads for this dip-shit? Seriously? Giving him/her attention is what he/she craves.
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So don't ever call me lucky
You don't know what I done, what it was, who I lost, or what it cost me - A B Original: I C U
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Love is as strong as death (Song of Solomon 8:6).
Posts: 2958 | From: Beyond the Yellow Brick Road | Registered: Apr 2005
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
Well, two threads of his own and one that turned into an inpromptu thread about him. It's quite an achievement, right up there with MT's post count. And he's done it with no help from Gam this time.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Well, two threads of his own and one that turned into an inpromptu thread about him. It's quite an achievement, right up there with MT's post count.
Oh please.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
Being called a "dangerous sociopath" for criticising someone who desires other people dead, simply because he disagrees with their understanding of marriage is a view that is insane.
OK, I am sorry for using the word 'retarded'. I used it as a synonym for insane, and probably wrongly. I was wrong. But I was also very angry, especially at the sheer evil of some of the views and the craven hypocrisy I see on this site, which you self-righteous pseudo-moralisers never seem to pick up on.
I have apologised. If you can't understand someone's anger, then fucking well grow up.
By the way... don't you bloody well preach to me about vulnerable or disabled people. I probably know more about that than you do.
I accept your apology for the remark.
But what's with the attitude and pompous swelled up "I know more than you do". I actually doubt you do. I started work with mentally and physically disabled children and adults in 1977. And we didn't even use the word "retarded" then.
Good Heavens! Please lose the chip on your shoulder and think a little before posting. You've many more ill-considered posts than the one I focussed on.
[ 23. May 2013, 15:00: Message edited by: no prophet ]
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Well, two threads of his own and one that turned into an inpromptu thread about him. It's quite an achievement, right up there with MT's post count.
Oh please.
I didn't say it was a good achievement.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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The Riv
Shipmate
# 3553
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Posted
E.E: quote:
By the way... don't you bloody well preach to me about vulnerable or disabled people. I probably know more about that than you do.
N.P: quote:
I started work with mentally and physically disabled children and adults in 1977.
Gripping. Who's cared for these folks more, and for how much longer?! Stay tuned, everyone!
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"I don't know whether I like it, but it's what I meant." Ralph Vaughan Williams
"Riv, you've done a much better job communicating your passion than your point. I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about." Tom Clune
Posts: 2749 | From: Too far South, USA. I really want to move. | Registered: Nov 2002
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Riv:
E.E: quote:
By the way... don't you bloody well preach to me about vulnerable or disabled people. I probably know more about that than you do.
N.P: quote:
I started work with mentally and physically disabled children and adults in 1977.
Gripping. Who's cared for these folks more, and for how much longer?! Stay tuned, everyone!
I didn't say I wanted to be in any sort of competition.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
Marvin wants people dead who don't agree with him. I called him out on that in anger. And then I am called a "dangerous sociopath". Who is the dangerous sociopath and bigot? The one who is shocked and sickened by the lust for other people's deaths, or the one who expresses such lusts?
You weren't called out for expressing shock. You were called out for asserting that it was only a small step from wanting someone dead to actually trying to make them so.
Lots of people have tried to point this out to you, and you have persistently ignored them. Why is that?
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Well, two threads of his own and one that turned into an inpromptu thread about him. It's quite an achievement, right up there with MT's post count.
Oh please.
I didn't say it was a good achievement.
Touché.
[ 23. May 2013, 15:32: Message edited by: mousethief ]
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Ethne Alba
Shipmate
# 5804
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Posted
EE
We accept the apology.
Now Shut up.
Please
Or it isn't an apology,
it's an explanation
[ 23. May 2013, 15:35: Message edited by: Ethne Alba ]
Posts: 3126 | Registered: Apr 2004
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The Riv
Shipmate
# 3553
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
quote:
Originally posted by The Riv:
E.E: quote:
By the way... don't you bloody well preach to me about vulnerable or disabled people. I probably know more about that than you do.
N.P: quote:
I started work with mentally and physically disabled children and adults in 1977.
Gripping. Who's cared for these folks more, and for how much longer?! Stay tuned, everyone!
I didn't say I wanted to be in any sort of competition.
That didn't keep you from making it one, though. Be of good cheer -- from most threadmates' POV you're winning. WINNING!!!
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"I don't know whether I like it, but it's what I meant." Ralph Vaughan Williams
"Riv, you've done a much better job communicating your passion than your point. I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about." Tom Clune
Posts: 2749 | From: Too far South, USA. I really want to move. | Registered: Nov 2002
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Pre-cambrian
Shipmate
# 2055
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
Lots of people have tried to point this out to you, and you have persistently ignored them. Why is that?
Because he always does. Just the same way he persistently and massively misinterprets other people's posts and then screams blue murder if a reference to his own scribblings is a gnat's arse out. I think it's got something to do with his "logic", which even he is now putting in inverted commas to distinguish it from the real thing.
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"We cannot leave the appointment of Bishops to the Holy Ghost, because no one is confident that the Holy Ghost would understand what makes a good Church of England bishop."
Posts: 2314 | From: Croydon | Registered: Dec 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Riv:
That didn't keep you from making it one, though. Be of good cheer -- from most threadmates' POV you're winning. WINNING!!!
I have to cry foul here. EE made it a competition from the get-go. NP didn't make it one. He could have let it drop, true, but he didn't create the competition.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
I was wrong. But ...
There can be no 'but' in an apology. 'I was wrong and should not have said it' is an apology.
Anything else is justification.
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
EtymologicalEvangelical: Being called a "dangerous sociopath" for criticising someone who desires other people dead
You haven't been called a 'dangerous sociopath'. In this post, the subject of the verbal clause 'is potentially a dangerous sociopath' is 'Anyone who truly believes what you've written above'.
So, let's take a look at what you've written above:
"Now to wish someone dead, because they hold views with which you happen to disagree, is a very small step from desiring their execution."
This sentence talks about people who wish someone dead, and then take the step to desire their execution.
These are the people that Anselmina called dangerous sociopaths (implying that Marvin and the other posters on the thread weren't). You aren't among them.
Aren't you glad that I searched this out for you?
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Sarkycow
La belle Dame sans merci
# 1012
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Posted
But LeRoc, you're assuming s/he can read for comprehension...
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“Just because your voice reaches halfway around the world doesn't mean you are wiser than when it reached only to the end of the bar.”
Posts: 10787 | Registered: Jul 2001
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
I was wrong. But ...
There can be no 'but' in an apology. 'I was wrong and should not have said it' is an apology.
Anything else is justification.
Give EE some credit. S/he didn't use that awful "I am sorry if I offended anyone" construct.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
Being called a "dangerous sociopath" for criticising someone who desires other people dead, simply because he disagrees with their understanding of marriage is a view that is insane.
If you re-visit what I posted you'll see that this....
quote:
Anselmina posted:
quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
Now to wish someone dead, because they hold views with which you happen to disagree, is a very small step from desiring their execution.
For rational people there are many, many steps between expressing a passive wish for a troublesome person's demise, and instituting legal execution for those of other views. quote:
Anyone who truly believes what you've written above, EE, is potentially a dangerous sociopath.
.... is the long and the short of what I actually did write.
So don't make me responsible for whatever was going on inside your head when you were reading this and 'interpreting' it in your own interesting way!
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Irish dogs needing homes! http://www.dogactionwelfaregroup.ie/ Greyhounds and Lurchers are shipped over to England for rehoming too!
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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The Riv
Shipmate
# 3553
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by The Riv:
That didn't keep you from making it one, though. Be of good cheer -- from most threadmates' POV you're winning. WINNING!!!
I have to cry foul here. EE made it a competition from the get-go. NP didn't make it one. He could have let it drop, true, but he didn't create the competition.
Cry all you want. Hopefully it's one of those cries after which you feel much better.
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"I don't know whether I like it, but it's what I meant." Ralph Vaughan Williams
"Riv, you've done a much better job communicating your passion than your point. I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about." Tom Clune
Posts: 2749 | From: Too far South, USA. I really want to move. | Registered: Nov 2002
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EtymologicalEvangelical
Shipmate
# 15091
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina
Anyone who truly believes what you've written above, EE, is potentially a dangerous sociopath.
OK. So I wrote something, which was as follows...
quote:
Now to wish someone dead, because they hold views with which you happen to disagree, is a very small step from desiring their execution.
Now why do you think I wrote that?
1. Because I believe it to be true?
2. Because I do not believe it to be true?
The correct answer is #1. I wrote that comment, because I believe it to be true.
So therefore I come into the category of...
"Anyone who truly believes what you have written above, EE"
And, according to you, such a person is...
"potentially a dangerous sociopath".
Therefore I am being called "potentially a dangerous sociopath" because I believe what I have written.
Unless there is something hidden in the grammar and syntax of your comment that has some meaning that has eluded me? If so, please kindly reveal it.
Perhaps you see the direct object of the verb 'believe' as being something different from what I can see? According to what you wrote, the direct object of 'believe' is: "what you've written above, EE."
So what is this thing which is described as "what you've written above, EE"? It is the concept, which EE expressed in the words EE used, and EE wrote it, because EE believes it. Therefore, EE is, according to you, a potentially dangerous sociopath.
Is there some other direct object of 'believe' that I am not seeing here??
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You can argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome': but you neither can nor need argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome, but I'm not saying this is true'. CS Lewis
Posts: 3625 | From: South Coast of England | Registered: Sep 2009
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EtymologicalEvangelical
Shipmate
# 15091
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie
There can be no 'but' in an apology. 'I was wrong and should not have said it' is an apology.
Anything else is justification.
Good try, Boogie, but you're wrong.
"I apologise, but..." is perfectly legitimate, because it is possible to apologise for one aspect of an act, while also justifying the other aspects. Are you suggesting that if someone makes a mistake, for which he is sorry, that he must apologise for everything else he does?
If so, you are obviously a perfect being, and God help the rest of us!
I am very sorry for using the word 'retarded'. But I am not sorry for the content of the post in which the offensive word was used.
I therefore "apologise, but..."
If you don't like that, then off you go to your utopia, and the rest of us will just have to settle for something called "the real world".
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You can argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome': but you neither can nor need argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome, but I'm not saying this is true'. CS Lewis
Posts: 3625 | From: South Coast of England | Registered: Sep 2009
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
EtymologicalEvangelical: Is there some other direct object of 'believe' that I am not seeing here??
The word 'believe' is a reference to the word 'desire' that you used in your sentence. The object of 'believe' is 'that someone who holds views with which [one] happens to disagree, should be executed'.
I agree that there is a bit of ambiguity, because there are some sentences involved with implied subjects, and because of the switch from 'desire' to 'believe'. We aren't speaking Lojban on the Ship, and especially in Hell, so these things are bound to happen. However, anyone with more than 1,5 braincell could have deducted the meaning of Anselmina's post.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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goperryrevs
Shipmtae
# 13504
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
Marvin wants people dead who don't agree with him. I called him out on that in anger. And then I am called a "dangerous sociopath". Who is the dangerous sociopath and bigot? The one who is shocked and sickened by the lust for other people's deaths, or the one who expresses such lusts?
EE, I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and try one last time.
Suicide rates among homosexuals, especially teenagers, are much higher than for straight people (around two to six times higher). Many suffer from depression and self-harm. This is often due to bullying and rejection by others in society, which is created by the attitudes and actions of people like Dominique Venner.
So, Marvin's comment wasn't about disagreeing with your opinion. You've justified your response by mentioning your anger. But you've failed to consider that what Marvin said was in anger too. Anger at the unnecessary loss of life and quality of life aggressive homophobia creates. So, I'm guessing that Marvin's attitude was something like scumbags like that have caused the suffering and deaths of too many people already, if there were fewer people like that around, then the plight of homosexuals wouldn't be so bad. His comment was against someone who marginalized and persecuted gays, not someone who he just disagreed with. This isn't about disagreeing or agreeing.
Your description of what Marvin said has been a woefully inadequate misinterpretation throughout. Fine, we all misinterpret each other, especially in a text-based medium. But explanations as to why you misunderstood have fallen on deaf ears - did you even read my post on the other thread on hyperbole?
Anyway, I'm glad you apologised over the use of the word 'retarded'. It's an incredibly offensive word, but there still seem to be large parts of society that don't realise that. I'm glad you've now joined the ranks of those that do.
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"Keep your eye on the donut, not on the hole." - David Lynch
Posts: 2098 | From: Midlands | Registered: Mar 2008
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EtymologicalEvangelical
Shipmate
# 15091
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Posted
LeRoc appealing to logic!!!
The person who once told me that s/he doesn't believe in it!
Well I never...
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You can argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome': but you neither can nor need argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome, but I'm not saying this is true'. CS Lewis
Posts: 3625 | From: South Coast of England | Registered: Sep 2009
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
EtymologicalEvangelical: LeRoc appealing to logic!!!
The person who once told me that s/he doesn't believe in it!
Well I never...
If you *could* read for comprehension, you would have understood that I don't believe in logic as a useful way in trying to describe God. This qualifier is rather imporant.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
"I apologise, but..." is perfectly legitimate, because it is possible to apologise for one aspect of an act, while also justifying the other aspects.
Then you need to be clearer as to what exactly you are apologising for, instead of saying what amounts to 'I'm sorry but I was provoked'.
I'm glad you are sorry for using the word retard - I hope that means you won't use it again, in print or speech.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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EtymologicalEvangelical
Shipmate
# 15091
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by goperryrevs
EE, I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and try one last time.
Suicide rates among homosexuals, especially teenagers, are much higher than for straight people (around two to six times higher). Many suffer from depression and self-harm. This is often due to bullying and rejection by others in society, which is created by the attitudes and actions of people like Dominique Venner.
So, Marvin's comment wasn't about disagreeing with your opinion. You've justified your response by mentioning your anger. But you've failed to consider that what Marvin said was in anger too. Anger at the unnecessary loss of life and quality of life aggressive homophobia creates. So, I'm guessing that Marvin's attitude was something like scumbags like that have caused the suffering and deaths of too many people already, if there were fewer people like that around, then the plight of homosexuals wouldn't be so bad. His comment was against someone who marginalized and persecuted gays, not someone who he just disagreed with. This isn't about disagreeing or agreeing.
Let us suppose that the serial killer, Fred West, had just killed himself in prison (as I am sure you know, he committed suicide some years ago). I then decided to open a thread in hell called "Good Riddance", and I expressed my pleasure at the demise of this indescribably evil man. Let me guess what the reaction would be. Judging by some of the comments on one of the Purg. threads some months ago (which I think was on the subject of damnation), I suspect that I would be pilloried for being so self-righteous and full of 'hate'. On the evidence of his previous performance, Marvin would probably have gone on about how "there is good in everyone" and so on. In other words, we've been this way before.
But it seems that it's perfectly OK to bid 'good riddance' to someone who did not believe in gay marriage. Yes, I am aware that he was probably an obnoxious fascist, but no more evil than the kind of people whom people like me shouldn't speak against!
I am well aware that there is the tragic trend of suicides among gays and lesbians as a result of homophobic attitudes. But it's an astonishing leap (and an illiberal rejection of freedom of speech and conscience) to say that someone who believes that marriage should be between a man and a woman, is driving gay people to their deaths.
The word 'homophobic' is bandied around in a way that stifles honest debate among people who do not harbour any hatred at all of gay and lesbian people. If people want to talk about offensive language, then I would suggest that the reckless use of 'homophobic' is deeply irresponsible. And if we want to talk about "dangerous sociopaths", then we could consider that it is truly frightening to suggest - even in the hyperbole of anger - that people who simply hold to a traditional view of marriage are worthy only of death. The implications of that do not bear thinking about.
And if you think that casually wishing people dead can't generally lead to serious oppression, then I suggest you read the history of propaganda in Germany and Rwanda prior to their respective holocausts.
So yes, people have been offended by my language. I hope that they will also have the integrity and sensitivity to appreciate that I was deeply offended by Marvin's comment.
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You can argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome': but you neither can nor need argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome, but I'm not saying this is true'. CS Lewis
Posts: 3625 | From: South Coast of England | Registered: Sep 2009
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
The word 'homophobic' is bandied around in a way that stifles honest debate among people who do not harbour any hatred at all of gay and lesbian people.
Ah yes, the old "it's OK to oppress and persecute someone so long as you don't hate them" canard. Haven't heard that one in at least a day... ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
quote:
I hope that they will also have the integrity and sensitivity to appreciate that I was deeply offended by Marvin's comment.
And to think that you weren't even its target. But if you're offended because you share the late fuckwit's views, then I'm fucking glad it offended you.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
There's something in misperception of intent and excessive emotion influencing what you post (p)Et(t)y Eva[n]. You've acknowledged posting in anger. You've acknowledged feeling under attack because you hold 'traditional morality' (whatever exactly this might be). Surprise! some of the rest of us also get angry sometimes, and also hold various ideas and beliefs, but we don't . A blowing-of-steam type of thread isn't the right one to start debating all emotionally. It makes the armchair analyst consider that perhaps something is boiling in your belly from something elsewise you failed to digest. You must understand that it is not your views so much as your inappropriate expression of your views.
Do you need a psychologic purgative? Something to rinse the brains of that cruel frustration. Or perhaps something in the gastrointestinal department, something to loosen your tripes?
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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EtymologicalEvangelical
Shipmate
# 15091
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet
There's something in misperception of intent and excessive emotion influencing what you post (p)Et(t)y Eva[n]. You've acknowledged posting in anger. You've acknowledged feeling under attack because you hold 'traditional morality' (whatever exactly this might be). Surprise! some of the rest of us also get angry sometimes, and also hold various ideas and beliefs, but we don't . A blowing-of-steam type of thread isn't the right one to start debating all emotionally. It makes the armchair analyst consider that perhaps something is boiling in your belly from something elsewise you failed to digest. You must understand that it is not your views so much as your inappropriate expression of your views.
Do you need a psychologic purgative? Something to rinse the brains of that cruel frustration. Or perhaps something in the gastrointestinal department, something to loosen your tripes?
Obviously I must have overdosed on my medication, because I started hallucinating, and read the following:
quote:
This is Hell. Please note that posting here is the equivalent of drawing a big, fat bull's eye on your chest. Got a complaint, a rant or a personal argument to settle? Feel free to add it to the uproar – so long as you have a thick skin to match. The flames are fast and furious here, so back out if you don't want to be roasted to a crisp. Please read, study and become one with the Hell guidelines before plunging in, as our normal rules on civility are abandoned on this board.
Addendum:
But if you take the above seriously, you will be called a bigot - or something similarly delusional.
You have been warned!
Thank goodness this "hell board" doesn't really exist. And therefore no prophet's words make perfect sense!
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You can argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome': but you neither can nor need argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome, but I'm not saying this is true'. CS Lewis
Posts: 3625 | From: South Coast of England | Registered: Sep 2009
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie
There can be no 'but' in an apology. 'I was wrong and should not have said it' is an apology.
Anything else is justification.
Good try, Boogie, but you're wrong.
"I apologise, but..." is perfectly legitimate, because it is possible to apologise for one aspect of an act, while also justifying the other aspects. Are you suggesting that if someone makes a mistake, for which he is sorry, that he must apologise for everything else he does?
If so, you are obviously a perfect being, and God help the rest of us!
I am very sorry for using the word 'retarded'. But I am not sorry for the content of the post in which the offensive word was used.
I therefore "apologise, but..."
If you don't like that, then off you go to your utopia, and the rest of us will just have to settle for something called "the real world".
Does this mean that you will come in from your dogmatic and idealised world in which those who are in a sexual relationship are married to a person of the opposite sex, and everyone else is chaste, though straight?
Or could you too, just possibly, take the leap to this "real world" you mention?
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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goperryrevs
Shipmtae
# 13504
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
The word 'homophobic' is bandied around in a way that stifles honest debate among people who do not harbour any hatred at all of gay and lesbian people.
And yet, Marvin wasn't just talking about any old homophobe. He was talking about one who "marginalise(d) and persecute(d)" gays. Read the post again. Like he just said, it wasn't aimed at you. He also said "if only a few homophobes...", not "if only all homophobes...".
Whatever. Keep digging.
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"Keep your eye on the donut, not on the hole." - David Lynch
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
And if you think that casually wishing people dead can't generally lead to serious oppression, then I suggest you read the history of propaganda in Germany and Rwanda prior to their respective holocausts.
![[brick wall]](graemlins/brick_wall.gif)
Nobody is denying this. The point at issue is whether this is a small step or, as Anselmina says, a succession of many, many steps.
I don't know much about Rwanda, but the Shoah in Germany was preceded by a massive campaign of propaganda and intimidation, centuries of European anti-semitism, and the trauma of the Great War. Even then many people apparently went into denial that it was happening. Hardly a 'small step'.
[ 23. May 2013, 21:26: Message edited by: Ricardus ]
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
Being called a "dangerous sociopath" for criticising someone who desires other people dead, simply because he disagrees with their understanding of marriage is a view that is insane.
First, let's get practical. Wishing others dead is admittedly among humanity's least appealing traits, but it certainly is one.
Nevertheless, the vast majority of angry people who say (or more likely think) "I wish X were dead" take not one further step toward realization of that outcome.
It's possible that the distance between thinking, or even typing anonymously on an internet bulletin board, "I wish X were dead" is very small -- for you, or for various others. That's not the case for most of us, though. Most of us, even in the throes of mad rage, have plenty of inhibitions in place to prevent lifting a single finger toward bringing about someone's death. IOW, it's several, probably large, steps for most of us.
In this case, though, you are the one claiming that thought-to-action is a very small step, which might mean that's true for you (since it is, for some people with poor impulse control). If so, then it's understandable, perhaps even justifiable, for others to wonder if you are in fact dangerous, since you're the one making this "small-step" claim.
I also know that some Christians take the whole "what's in your heart is equivalent to having committed the act" very seriously. (Though oddly, this seems to apply solely to bad acts, not good ones.) That may be good Christian theology (I wouldn't know), but as psychology it leaves much to be desired.
quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
OK, I am sorry for using the word 'retarded'. I used it as a synonym for insane, and probably wrongly.
Where I live and work, this is a very common, and therefore (in my book, anyway) forgivable mistake. The members of the general public I run into on a daily basis who use the term "mental" or "retarded" to cover everything from Down syndrome to a nervous tic to bipolar disorder are legion.
As my daily work involves dealing with dually-diagnosed folks who have both major mental illnesses (and/or character disorders) and developmental disabilities, including various levels of retardation, the two sets of disabilities look very different, at least to me. A significant number of patients with mental illness experience substantial relief from their symptoms through the use of medications and various other treatments.
So far, "retardation" is impervious to either. All we can offer such folks is the patient breaking down of learning tasks into tiny steps, and then helping folks through endless repetitions until some, most, or all of the necessary learning sinks in.
"Retardation" is no longer a politically-correct term where I am; we use "cognitive deficits" these days, though UK people on this board seem to favor "learning difficulties."
quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
. . . don't you bloody well preach to me about vulnerable or disabled people. I probably know more about that than you do.
I hope I haven't been preaching; I have no license to do so. But I've been doing this work for a looong time, and all I can say is this: I learn something new from my clients every single day.
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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
I just have to comment that I'm not sure I've ever seen the cute fluffy "there's good in everyone" Marvin. It's wet naive pinko "wouldn't it be nice if everyone was nice" idealists like me who get a bit uncomfortable when people talk about hatred and rejoicing in death.
But I've learnt to keep that quiet in Hell, where people can get it out of their systems. I've never seen Marvin as a fellow traveller on this one though.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
quote:
This is Hell. Please note that posting here is the equivalent of drawing a big, fat bull's eye on your chest. Got a complaint, a rant or a personal argument to settle? Feel free to add it to the uproar – so long as you have a thick skin to match. The flames are fast and furious here, so back out if you don't want to be roasted to a crisp. Please read, study and become one with the Hell guidelines before plunging in, as our normal rules on civility are abandoned on this board.
Addendum:
But if you take the above seriously, you will be called a bigot - or something similarly delusional.
You mean like that time you called me a fascist? Are you genuinely so deficient in self-awareness that you can't see that what others are now doing to you is exactly what you did to me? The irony on this thread is just killing me
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
Indeed.
One of the things that makes EE's argumentative style so irritating is that he tries to argue by some form of reductio - 'You believe X, X logically implies Y, Y is absurd and evil, ergo you are absurd and evil, sarcastic comment double exclamation mark'. Which pisses people off because it feels like putting words in their mouth.
Now Anselmina has in effect done the same to him, and he throws a massive strop.
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
I just have to comment that I'm not sure I've ever seen the cute fluffy "there's good in everyone" Marvin.
It comes from a thread on damnation where EE was claiming that some people are pure evil all the way through, can therefore never ever ever be Saved, and that's a good thing. I argued that nobody is like that, that everyone has some good aspects, and that nobody deserves eternal damnation.
Because EE is incapable of seeing the world in terms other than Right/Wrong or Black/White, that makes me a fluffy pinko librul commie, or something. Go figure.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
I just have to comment that I'm not sure I've ever seen the cute fluffy "there's good in everyone" Marvin.
It comes from a thread on damnation where EE was claiming that some people are pure evil all the way through, can therefore never ever ever be Saved, and that's a good thing. I argued that nobody is like that, that everyone has some good aspects, and that nobody deserves eternal damnation.
Only too true. What's the point of forgiveness and salvation if it isn't available to all?
quote:
Because EE is incapable of seeing the world in terms other than Right/Wrong or Black/White, that makes me a fluffy pinko librul commie, or something. Go figure.
Not merely right or wrong, black or white, but EE's very own take on right/wrong and black/white. I don't think it's even derived from a doctrinal basis, just from his own prejudices and preferences (I suppose he's no different to anyone else there).
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
EE, I usually feel fairly neutral about your posts, though I think in this you're being a bit of a tit! And I do see what you're getting at. Perhaps I should've made it clear that I personally (so far as I know) don't think you're an actual sociopath. I didn't set out to insult you, either, just to challenge what I thought was a lazy and irrational statement.
You tried to guilt Marvin into feeling bad about not feeling bad about the death of someone else. You tried to do this by implying that it's reasonable to say that in the one moment we are dismissively shrugging off the death of another, and in the next we're rigging up the electric chair for them - as if these two concepts are right next-door to each other. But they're not. And it's not reasonable to say this. It's an unreasonable thing to assert, going through a whole spectrum of non-reason.
And at one end of that spectrum is yourself with your implication that Marvin shouldn't feel the way he does because he's almost as good as a lynch mob if he does; and at the other end are the people who also share the 'only one step between the two concepts' philosophy and are happy to be the lynch mob.
Yes, thinking fatal thoughts, as a fixed pattern, is unhealthy, and can create an environment where physical danger ensues. But, unless you know better, Marvin's dismissive concern for the death of another, can at worst be only the thin end of a very large and complicated wedge.
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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Pre-cambrian
Shipmate
# 2055
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Posted
Has anyone else noticed the difference in standards EE applies to other people's comments compared to his own?
So when referring to Marvin it's: quote:
Now to wish someone dead, because they hold views with which you happen to disagree, is a very small step from desiring their execution.
But when it's EE himself it's: quote:
But it's an astonishing leap (and an illiberal rejection of freedom of speech and conscience) to say that someone who believes that marriage should be between a man and a woman, is driving gay people to their deaths.
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"We cannot leave the appointment of Bishops to the Holy Ghost, because no one is confident that the Holy Ghost would understand what makes a good Church of England bishop."
Posts: 2314 | From: Croydon | Registered: Dec 2001
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pre-cambrian:
Has anyone else noticed the difference in standards EE applies to other people's comments compared to his own?
So when referring to Marvin it's: quote:
Now to wish someone dead, because they hold views with which you happen to disagree, is a very small step from desiring their execution.
But when it's EE himself it's: quote:
But it's an astonishing leap (and an illiberal rejection of freedom of speech and conscience) to say that someone who believes that marriage should be between a man and a woman, is driving gay people to their deaths.
Hands up everyone who is surprised? Ah, one hand.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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