Thread: No: He/she is dead. Not passed. Fucking Dead. Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.
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Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on
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We had a suicide (again) at my school this morning. That usually means the student is dead. Fucking dead. It hurts for those who love him, but there's no use fuck-arsing around with wussy platitudes. He has not passed away or passed or passed on or passed over to the other side. He has died and the result of that is that he is dead.
But the d-word is not allowed. Even from the chaplain.
Even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of passing over to the other side ...
Yeah, right.
Posted by Matt Black (# 2210) on
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This is Hell but ![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif)
Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on
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indeed
But quite right, dead. Use the proper word: it's the only way of facing it. My mother-in-law, excellent person though she is in so many ways, never uses the word dead. You could've stepped on a landmine and she'd still say you passed away.
Posted by Matt Black (# 2210) on
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Perhaps the most sinister-sounding euphemism I've come across is from my wife's Exclusive Brethren family: 'taken' ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
Posted by Vade Mecum (# 17688) on
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Dead in Christ. Dead in the hope of rising to new life. Dead by man, that by man all might be made alive. Resting in the grave which Christ has sanctified "to be a bed of hope to thy people".
There's nothing to be avoided there: embraced, rather.
"So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?"
Posted by seasick (# 48) on
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For the student who has died, for Zappa, for the whole school community.
Posted by Erroneous Monk (# 10858) on
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So sorry to hear that, Zappa.
Yes. Dead. It's the best way to describe someone who's dead.
However, I reserve the right to use "croaked" and "carked it" when appropriate.
Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on
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Ah, euphemisms. Without them, we never would have got Monty Python's parrot sketch.
Posted by Porridge (# 15405) on
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Whole-hearted agreement here. I hate the phrase "passed away" and all its dainty prissy-mouthed relatives.
First of all, the person hasn't "passed" anywhere; s/he, especially in the case of suicide, is going to be smack in the forefront of his/her friends/relatives/everybody's cerebral cortex for weeks if not decades as they wrestle with "Why?". I'm still having bad dreams about a client who shot herself back in 1994, and she didn't even die.
Second, death, even when anticipated, expected, and recognized as merciful to the dying when it arrives, is brutal for everyone else concerned. In the case of accident, murder, and suicide, this brutality is multiplied exponentially. Failure to acknowledge this brutality is a mewling, craven attempt to deprive survivors of their right to all the rage, grief, fear, guilt, bewilderment and whatever else they may be feeling in the aftermath.
"Passed away" is right up there with that other hideous euphemism, "She lost her battle with Dread Disease X."
Posted by PeteC (# 10422) on
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[crossposted with Cooked Oats ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
]
People are afraid of words. Even to the point of never saying them. But I call them as I see them.
Death
Cancer The Big C WTF? Even cancer nurses never use that word, for fear of upsetting the patient. I did, and upset the nurses.
Voldemort.
[ 30. July 2013, 12:19: Message edited by: PeteC ]
Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on
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for the deceased's family, friends, the school community and Zappa
When my other half died I got really angry when faced with "passed away" - and made sure every official (NHS, DHS, undertaker, etc) was put right.
Even worse is "lose/lost" ![[Mad]](angryfire.gif)
You lose car keys - not the person you love.
Posted by Erroneous Monk (# 10858) on
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quote:
Originally posted by PeteC:
[crossposted with Cooked Oats ]
People are afraid of words. Even to the point of never saying them. But I call them as I see them.
Death
Cancer The Big C WTF? Even cancer nurses never use that word, for fear of upsetting the patient. I did, and upset the nurses.
Voldemort.
My sister is a doctor. When she was a junior doctor she had her first experiences of having to give people a cancer diagnosis. Her initial approach was to do this by explaining very carefully in detail and using proper medical terms what was happening to the person, but avoiding the word "cancer".
The trouble was, she'd get to the end and they'd say "Oh well, Doctor, at least it isn't cancer!"
I also remember her asking her SHO how to deliver a bad prognosis to one patient, and his replying "Tell him to take his library books back."
Posted by Moo (# 107) on
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I think the phrase 'passed away' is all right when used of an elderly person who gradually becomes weaker and weaker, and finally dies. It's very wrong in any other situation
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
When my other half died I got really angry when faced with "passed away" - and made sure every official (NHS, DHS, undertaker, etc) was put right.
Even worse is "lose/lost"
You lose car keys - not the person you love.
I am also a widow, and when my husband died he was lost to me. He was no longer there.
Moo
Posted by Laurelin (# 17211) on
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Yes.
But last year, when a close friend died - shockingly and unexpectedly - I found myself struggling to say 'she's dead'. This feeling persisted for weeks.
I too had railed against the prissy euphemism. Until it was me facing the stark, unforgiving reality of my friend's death.
I can say it now. She's dead.
Yet I couldn't, for some time, after her actual death.
It takes one a long time to accept reality.
And I don't think I'd have reacted well to someone telling me off for not being able to move on from the euphemism.
I did, eventually. I can say it now. She's dead.
That doesn't excuse your school, though.
Posted by PaulBC (# 13712) on
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Zappa using passed on is just avoiding the reality of what has happened.That is something we need to avoid ,even if it means saying the word dead.
Blessings Zappa to you & your school
PaulBC
Posted by Pyx_e (# 57) on
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I am torn, I love Zapada and agree with him but the ruling tenent of my ministry has been "It is better to be kind than right."
Dead is right. "Insert platiude here" is kind. My wife is recently bereaved and I find myself avoiding the "D" word because (as has been pointed out) she can not bear it yet.
Pyx_e, wishing he had the balls to say "gone to glory" a bit more often, it has such a great ring to it!
Posted by Evensong (# 14696) on
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I'm afraid I never understood the difference between "passed away" and "dead" and why people get so upset about the two. I always assumed they meant the same thing.
As a Christian, I do not believe death is the end. Something happens after death. The dead pass on to something else.
So why do Christians have such a problem saying "passed on"?
They are indeed dead. But they have indeed passed on.
What's the difference?
Posted by Patdys (# 9397) on
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The word dead and being kind are not mutually exclusive.
Nor is the word dead necessary to identify pain and suffering with those facing that reality.
I would acknowledge our anger, our pain, our fear and our guilt. I would curse the substance abuse, the relationships, want to kick the shit out of the black dog and give space for screams of injustice. And I would rail against a God who lets this occur.
And probably I would weep.
The word dead is less useful than a scream of fuck.
I suspect the school may frown upon that too.
X post.
Evensong, passed on and other euphemisms are a softening of the reality. They may provide false comfort and hope. May is an important word and I suspect for you they do not.
[ 30. July 2013, 13:27: Message edited by: Patdys ]
Posted by Porridge (# 15405) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
As a Christian, I do not believe death is the end. Something happens after death. The dead pass on to something else.
1. Not everyone you encounter will be Christian.
2. Not all Christians believe in an afterlife.
3. When dealing with someone recently and abruptly bereaved, please consider that person's beliefs and feelings ahead of your own.
Posted by Stercus Tauri (# 16668) on
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I once called a friend task how his wife was getting over surgery. "She's dead!" was the reply... I can't think of anything else he could have said that would have let us move ahead quickly, and somehow, it worked. The euphemisms and occasional misinformation don't work for me. "Gone to glory" sounds great, but are you sure? What is glory anyway? Life can be glorious, too.
I'm not immune to it. When I was told I had metastatic melanoma, it took me about a week to take in the full meaning and say "cancer" as well. It's still cancer; just a major confounded bloody nuisance, a bit like death, but more complicated.
Posted by Lord Jestocost (# 12909) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
So why do Christians have such a problem saying "passed on"?
I can only speak for myself, but I object to it because it sounds so passive. Death is such a massive wrench away from the living. Even if you believe with all your heart that they are now elsewhere, there is no one quite so aggressively gone as someone who has died.
I first found myself articulating these thoughts when I read an account by a survivor of the Bismarck, talking about friends who had passed away. I don't believe anyone passed away on the Bismarck. They were blown to pieces, suffocated, burnt to death, drowned, torn apart ... no one passed anywhere.
Yet I also admit to dual standards here. When my closest friend and the father of my two godsons died, I had no trouble telling anyone he had indeed died. But the text from his wife said that he had "gone", and that was how I broke it to his ex-wife and the boys. I could only, just, say "gone" and even then my voice was trembling. I could not have finished any sentence with the word "died" in it.
Posted by Edith (# 16978) on
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I remember as a child the passing bell being tolled when someone died. We counted the number to see how old the person was and usually got it right.
Posted by Pyx_e (# 57) on
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Do you think they don't know their loved one is dead? Do you think you are doing them a favour by making it clear, just in case they had not figured it out?
They will figure it out, in their own time and at their own pace, one day they will accept it all.
It must be that proven point that telling a anorexic they are skinny or a alcoholic they drink too much or a smoker to quit will magically MAKE IT ALRIGHT!!!!
Ha, thank God for this thread, the answer is clear, just tell people the truth. That is why all the great teachers never bothered with stories or parables, let them have it BOTH BARRELS, He’s DEAD you sad delusional weakling, just come to terms with it and move on, NOW.
Thank you all, off I go to tell people the truth.
Fly Safe Pyx_e
Posted by Porridge (# 15405) on
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We could try telling people the truth as they understand it. While I try to avoid the disparaged phrase, when bereaved people use it with me, I just listen. Listening is often an appropriate alternative to truth-telling, and I'm pretty damn sure that's what Zappa & Pyx_e (and various others) have been doing for lo these many years.
Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Pyx_e:
I am torn, I love Zapada and agree with him but the ruling tenent of my ministry has been "It is better to be kind than right."
Dead is right. "Insert platiude here" is kind. My wife is recently bereaved and I find myself avoiding the "D" word because (as has been pointed out) she can not bear it yet.
Pyx_e, wishing he had the balls to say "gone to glory" a bit more often, it has such a great ring to it!
I agree with this. It's a question of context and sensitivity to the other person. Some people want their euphemisms, and I feel OK with that, and I don't want to rip them away, so that they feel more raw.
Better kind than right - I like that. We have one in therapy - better to relate than be right.
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on
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quote:
Originally posted by PaulBC:
Zappa using passed on is just avoiding the reality of what has happened.
No it isn't. What the fuck else does it mean than "died"? Jesus, you people have hearts of stone. If someone is having a hard time saying "dead" and would rather say "passed on" who the fuck are you to tell them to "get over it"?
Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on
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Just echoing mousethief - people going through mourning and bereavement actually do need to avoid certain things for a while, as they can't deal with it all at once.
It's absurd for someone else to come along and say, oh no, this is avoidance! Absolutely criminal in fact, and I can tell you, fucking dangerous.
Posted by Taliesin (# 14017) on
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Yes. My aunt died last week, and the fact that my family can easily say to each other 'auntie died/is dead' really does illustrate how much we struggle to care. it's such a short word - it's brutal.
my sister's friend called to tell her that her eldest daughter had died suddenly and dramatically. 'we've lost D' she said, and my sister had an absurd reaction - lost her? where? but she knew really.
If we aren't children, we know really.
As a trainee teacher I tackled euphamisms head on, with a sense of smug self righteousness, I expect.
I use the word 'died' with closer friends very carefully, a stark reality, when I am definitely the person in the room with most pain, most shock. And when a loved member of our church died very suddenly this year, we all confidently spoke of 'Gone Home' and 'Gone to Glory' without a shred of self-consciousness.
I think, Zappa, your desire to brutally say 'dead' is very illustrative of your own pain, and your knowledge that no one here can be hurt by it.
Posted by Taliesin (# 14017) on
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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by PaulBC:
Zappa using passed on is just avoiding the reality of what has happened.
No it isn't. What the fuck else does it mean than "died"? Jesus, you people have hearts of stone. If someone is having a hard time saying "dead" and would rather say "passed on" who the fuck are you to tell them to "get over it"?
sorry to double post. I am hearng the unmoved using words to be correct and avoiding rawness and realness that pissed Zappa off so much. Of course it's all relative.
Posted by S. Bacchus (# 17778) on
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I too despise 'passed away', but for some reason don't mind 'departed this life'.
Posted by Ariston (# 10894) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
I'm afraid I never understood the difference between "passed away" and "dead" and why people get so upset about the two. I always assumed they meant the same thing.
What's the difference?
People you like die. When you wail, rend your clothes, and wonder what kind of a sick fuck God would kill your friends with cancer and car accidents before their 18th birthdays, they are dead. Killed. There's no passing on, no crossing the veil, just death.
People you don't actually like, or like only because they're related to you, or whom you just think need to hurry up and die already like a civilized lady or gentleman pass on, silently in the night, like a southern belle's farts—nobody ever has to care, nobody really notices it happening, and, if they do, they know enough not to say anything. "S/he passed on" is like "bless your heart;" if it's not part of your cultural tradition, you don't understand that it's actually an insult to the deceased. Here, a translation:
"Marylou passed on last night"
"Oh, I'm so sorry to hear that"
does NOT mean:
"Marylou is dead"
"I am genuinely distraught right now"
but rather
"I'm bringing the funeral salad"
"I'll grab some chicken from Church's on the way over. Now, remember, extra cherries on top, Robert likes those."
And, even if I know people aren't from my cultural background and probably don't share my set of implied slights, I still hear it—and, it seems, so do they. "Passed away" isn't something you say to make it go easier; it's something you say when that person has really and truly faded into the past and is no longer part of your life. It's a little nicety you use to act like you care because society says you should when, in reality, adding those extra three cherries to the top of the green marshmallow fluff because you might as well use up the rest of the jar shows more respect.
People you give a shit about die. People you're glad to have in their graves passed on. To speak the truth, even gently, even with your voice cracking, is to respect the dead and the life they were never allowed to have.
Posted by Chorister (# 473) on
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Deader than a dead thing in Deadville.
Best to use the words the most closely bereaved use themselves - take your lead from them.
Strangely, I find myself saying 'He's died' rather than 'He is dead' (which somehow seems an ongoing process rather than completely final, and therefore slightly more copable with - although I haven't particularly analysed why yet).
Posted by Nicolemr (# 28) on
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I hate all those "passed" variations. Passed on, passed away, passed... They just get right under my skin and make me twitch.
Posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe (# 5521) on
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I recently learned that Spanish (at least Mexican Spanish) uses the euphemism se quebró (literally "cracked himself") to indicate that a loved one has gone to the great beyond.
Posted by Kyzyl (# 374) on
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quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Ah, euphemisms. Without them, we never would have got Monty Python's parrot sketch.
When I die I want people to say that I am "pining for the fjords."
But yeah, people die, why are we so squidgy about it?
Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on
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Because people hurt badly from death, and so to an extent they mask it with euphemisms, with denial, with fantasy, and so on.
And they are very wise to do this, as it is part of the mourning (and healing) process.
And anyone who takes it upon themselves to interrupt this is a complete dingbat and callous to boot.
Posted by Kyzyl (# 374) on
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quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Because people hurt badly from death, and so to an extent they mask it with euphemisms, with denial, with fantasy, and so on.
And they are very wise to do this, as it is part of the mourning (and healing) process.
And anyone who takes it upon themselves to interrupt this is a complete dingbat and callous to boot.
This thread has gone from discussing a corporate use of an euphemism (see OP) to individual uses. I accept the use of euphemisms when you're dealing with individuals. But to say that a student has "passed on" when most likely the whole fucking school knows it was suicide is simply mamby pamby bullshit. I've been a teacher for almost 30 years (good god, how did that happen!?!) and have had students die. In every situation I can remember the official announcement was just that, no equivocating, no euphemism. But when dealing with grieving students on a one to one basis I used what ever words they needed to hear.
Posted by Pyx_e (# 57) on
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quote:
why are we so squidgy about it?
If you can't begin to understand I can't begin to explain.
Lewis says quote:
'Death doesn't matter.' There is death. And whatever is matters. And whatever happens has consequences, and it and they are irrevocable and irreversible. You might as well say that birth doesn't matter. I look up at the night sky. Is anything more certain than that in all those vast times and spaces, if I were allowed to search them, I should nowhere find her face, her voice, her touch? She died. She is dead. Is the word so difficult to learn?
Yes is is a hard word to learn, have mercy on me as I struggle with it.
Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on
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Kyzyl
Fair enough. But you asked the question, why are we squidgy about death? So I thought I would give a (partial) answer, based on my experience. People are squidgy, because they feel very raw and traumatized on some occasions. Mourning can stir up all kinds of strange stuff, partly from childhood, so one approaches this stuff with some care.
But yes, I get the point about an institutional setting.
Posted by moron (# 206) on
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I'm more and more inclined to hope that when I die I will also have been lost.
Which means to me among other things you're perpetuating life in the foodchain (unless you're in a volcano I suppose but even then ITSM it would be better than people mucking about with your body, after).
Posted by PhilA (# 8792) on
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Dead is dead. Passed on id passed on.
What you've really got to watch is when there is is a dress code or the funeral. It said 'somber', I read 'sombrero'. I looked a bit stupid, but then, its not the first time.
for anyone who has fallen off the last horse. Particularly children, and particularly suicide. Nothing is worse.
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
Deader than a dead thing in Deadville.
Best to use the words the most closely bereaved use themselves - take your lead from them.
Strangely, I find myself saying 'He's died' rather than 'He is dead' (which somehow seems an ongoing process rather than completely final, and therefore slightly more copable with - although I haven't particularly analysed why yet).
Spot on my approach and feelings. For myself, I do not care, but for others, I respect their sensibilities.
Posted by QLib (# 43) on
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My general preference is to use the word 'dead', but there are times when that word has stuck in my throat, either for my own sake or when I'm talking to the bereaved. I think a very real issue is what you feel you can say without sobbing - and, yes, I know it's all right to cry and all that, but I think people have to decide for themselves whether or not they are going to try and keep those floodgates closed in certain situations. For myself, I find it really embarrassing and inappropriate when I'm the one crying and the bereaved family are stoically quiet, so I'm prepared to make a big effort to avoid that.
But I just want to add, in the case of a young suicide, might it not be important for some public-speaking people to use the word 'dead' ? Hard for the family, I know, but I just wonder whether plain-speaking might not be the best tactic if one were worried about the possibility of others being inclined to follow the example. P'raps it wouldn't make any difference - I appreciate there's a lot more to the 'suicide cluster' phenomenon than the careless use of a few euphemisms.
Posted by sabine (# 3861) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Pyx_e:
I am torn, I love Zapada and agree with him but the ruling tenent of my ministry has been "It is better to be kind than right."
Dead is right. "Insert platiude here" is kind. My wife is recently bereaved and I find myself avoiding the "D" word because (as has been pointed out) she can not bear it yet.
Pyx_e, wishing he had the balls to say "gone to glory" a bit more often, it has such a great ring to it!
Thank you! This can apply to so many situations, not just the death of a person.
Sometimes the culture or subculture of the person's family will give us clues to the phrasing that is most kind to use (or most understandable to the bereaved).
Reaching out to others in their time of need is not the same as instruction about our preferences.
sabine
Posted by rolyn (# 16840) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Taliesin:
I think, Zappa, your desire to brutally say 'dead' is very illustrative of your own pain, and your knowledge that no one here can be hurt by it.
That's the feeling I'm getting from the OP too .
Bereavement creates anger, where suicide is concerned anger can be increased several-fold.
I suppose we're angry when a person has chosen to end their life because they are gone while we are left behind to deal with the pain of their loss.
Posted by Kyzyl (# 374) on
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quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Kyzyl
Fair enough. But you asked the question, why are we squidgy about death? So I thought I would give a (partial) answer, based on my experience. People are squidgy, because they feel very raw and traumatized on some occasions. Mourning can stir up all kinds of strange stuff, partly from childhood, so one approaches this stuff with some care.
But yes, I get the point about an institutional setting.
I actually agree with you, Aztec god. Think I was very imprecise with my first reply.
Posted by Schroedinger's cat (# 64) on
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I think the Sally Ann phrase "Promoted" is the oddest I have heard.
Yes I agree that all concerned need to accept that the person is dead, deceased, no more, if they weren't nailed ... OK, the finality of death is important to acknowledge and grapple with.
How you actually deal with this in the circumstances of the event is a more complex issue, a pastoral one not a theological one.
And for this family
Posted by St. Gwladys (# 14504) on
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I spoke to someone I hadn't seen for a long time - an acquaintance rather than a friend - and was told that her father had "passed". It took me a while to realise that she meant he had died. I've since heard "passed" a few times, and it still sounds odd.
Posted by birdie (# 2173) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
Best to use the words the most closely bereaved use themselves - take your lead from them.
Absolutely, and remember everyone's different.
My Dad died last year. I've never used any other term for his death. For some this might be an indication that I don't care -
quote:
Originally posted by Taliesin:
My aunt died last week, and the fact that my family can easily say to each other 'auntie died/is dead' really does illustrate how much we struggle to care.
For others, it's an indication that I do care, very much -
quote:
Originally posted by Ariston:
People you give a shit about die. People you're glad to have in their graves passed on.
As it happens, I do care. I love my Dad and I miss him very much.
I find the phrase 'passed away' somewhat irritating, but whatever gets you through....
Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on
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Ah ... as a counsellor* I would use reflective listening, and therefore work with the words used by the counselee. But the context this little irritation arose in was in the staff room, when I was told to say a few words and that I was not to use the d-word.
Actually I did (and I don't think the principal is amused). I quoted Paul's "neither death nor life". I was tempted to say "neither passing nor dwelling" but somehow I felt even in translation "death" was closer to Paul's thanatos, and I'm a simple bible believing christian.
*As it happens the chaplains in this school - not just me but my predecessors and no doubt my successors - do not have a counselling role. The school psychologist does all that - and wonders why he's burned out. He also distrusts counsellors, even registered ones with lots of letters after their name.. No B.Psych. no listenee, see. He stayed away yesterday.
More than anything, even in hell, I appreciate the prayers.
Posted by Patdys (# 9397) on
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I think you only need to hear once that some one you cared about has died. It needs to be clear and unambiguous so you can't misinterpret it. The dead/died words are important here.
After that occasion, I concur taking the cue from the person is important for language style. Often silence is most erudite. Or asking about a favourite memory.
Part of the disagreement on this thread stems from the context of the conversation. Initial news needs to be short simple and crystal clear. All after that doesn't matter. The word dead/died can be used without being cruel - when we don't use it as a club.
Posted by anoesis (# 14189) on
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quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Just echoing mousethief - people going through mourning and bereavement actually do need to avoid certain things for a while, as they can't deal with it all at once.
Some of them do. For myself, I remember standing in the front row at my father's funeral, listening to someone read a poem about a ship passing over the horizon, having just sung a song about crossing the Jordan, being just rigid with fury and wanting to shout out loud, 'Why can't someone say dead?'.
All this other faffing makes what has actually happened seem of no account. I'll only ever have one father - for me this loss is monumental, but I'm supposed to be comforted by this, this, tired metaphor?
Oh, he's just passed over the horizon out of my sight, has he? Well, that's ok then - can't think what I was getting so worked up about. The resurrection is an attractive idea, no doubt, but what I know for sure is that my Dad is actually, factually, dead.
Posted by Gwai (# 11076) on
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I think you're simplifying, PATDYS in an attempt to find a logical generalization. Some of us prefer to use the word die about our loved ones whenever we discuss their being dead and would prefer if others do too. For others, it is exactly the opposite, while some are as you say--they prefer one word used at some times or by some people and another at others.
And anyone who doesn't use it the way we do is grating sand on a grieving soul.
[ 30. July 2013, 21:01: Message edited by: Gwai ]
Posted by Patdys (# 9397) on
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So taking my cue from you I would continue to use the dead word.
D=n+1
I think we all need to hear the dead word, D, at least once and after that, n times depending on the comfort of the person being spoken to.
(Most of my experience here is pre and peri dying and breaking the news, rather than ongoing bereavement counselling and that colours my opinion.)
Posted by Arabella Purity Winterbottom (# 3434) on
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Schools are often twitchy about talking honestly about suicides. The worst example I've come across recently was where a principal refused to make a public statement to the kids at all, saying that he didn't want to stir things up. It was put to him in words of one syllable that within minutes of the suicide happening the kids had all been texting each other with the news, and did he want to put accurate information out there or leave it to the lurid imaginations of teenagers?
He chose to keep on saying nothing. Leadership fail.
Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on
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quote:
Originally posted by anoesis:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Just echoing mousethief - people going through mourning and bereavement actually do need to avoid certain things for a while, as they can't deal with it all at once.
Some of them do. For myself, I remember standing in the front row at my father's funeral, listening to someone read a poem about a ship passing over the horizon, having just sung a song about crossing the Jordan, being just rigid with fury and wanting to shout out loud, 'Why can't someone say dead?'.
All this other faffing makes what has actually happened seem of no account. I'll only ever have one father - for me this loss is monumental, but I'm supposed to be comforted by this, this, tired metaphor?
Oh, he's just passed over the horizon out of my sight, has he? Well, that's ok then - can't think what I was getting so worked up about. The resurrection is an attractive idea, no doubt, but what I know for sure is that my Dad is actually, factually, dead.
Fair point. I still think that nearly everyone who goes through mourning is going to avoid something for a while, and advisedly. For one thing, the process often brings up so many conflicting and disturbing feelings, such as anger, relief, guilt, fear, grief, and so on, that it's very difficult to absorb all this. Many people go into survival mode, or become very busy around the house and so on.
Then gradually the stuff starts to come up, and can take a long time. But the defences here are important, as they protect us from overload. Any counsellor who tries to break down these defences is playing with fire, except in emergencies possibly.
Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on
:
English is known for having an exceptionally rich vocabulary, with a large number of synonyms and near-synonyms, so it's rather bemusing to see some of you insist there is only one correct term when, as mousethief astutely observed, there isn't any doubt as to what some other terms MEAN.
Also, lighting candles in Hell is a bit like using your camera flash in broad daylight. We've got plenty of fiery warmth down here already.
Posted by QLib (# 43) on
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Perhaps what we need is a bucket of cold water smilie (not for this thread, obviously).
Posted by Haydee (# 14734) on
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Lost, though, is rather ambiguous...
I was sitting next to my younger daughter at Sunday School when one of the other children (they were both about 4) told her she had 'lost her mother' (I adopted my daughter, and she is fairly obviously not my biological child).
My daughter looked at him in total confusion - I kept pointing out that I wasn't lost, I was sitting right there ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
but he wasn't having any of it...
(as a matter of fact, her birth mother had neither died nor been lost either ![[Snigger]](graemlins/snigger.gif)
)
Posted by Patdys (# 9397) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
English is known for having an exceptionally rich vocabulary, with a large number of synonyms and near-synonyms, so it's rather bemusing to see some of you insist there is only one correct term when, as mousethief astutely observed, there isn't any doubt as to what some other terms MEAN.
Also, lighting candles in Hell is a bit like using your camera flash in broad daylight. We've got plenty of fiery warmth down here already.
Sorry mate, but....
If you do not use the most unambiguous blunt word in breaking news, then people will choose to misunderstand. A last little bit of denial.
And there are times when identifying with the opening poster is appropriate, even if for some, that involves emoticons. Hell had a rather broad community remit after all.
I'll even send prayers your way. Would you like for or against. ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on
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Yes, I think that makes it clear. Breaking news of death should be unambiguous, and should not use euphemisms.
But mourning is a private process, and generally should not be interrupted by others, or interfered with. The exception being when it goes on too long, (called 'melancholia' by Freud, I suppose 'depression' today), or if it becomes bizarre and outlandish, but that is a difficult judgment as well. I used to estimate about two years for most people, but that is flexible.
See Miss Havisham for bizarre and outlandish.
Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on
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There is nothing remotely ambiguous about passed away. Some other methods of euphemism might be ambiguous, yes, but I cannot think of any other meaning for passed away.
Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on
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But people like doctors should say, 'your mother has died', to make it clear.
Posted by Patdys (# 9397) on
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Orfeo, you are not wrong. However I would argue that short sharp sentences, even two syllables shorter are easier to comprehend when you are under enormous stress. People may also go to extraordinary lengths to misunderstand. But I wouldn't get an ulcer over your usage.
Another aspect which is a little harder to explain is education. Western society seems largely terrified of death. It is a normal part of life. Being comfortable using the dead word in a way helps normalise death as a part of life.
Posted by The Rhythm Methodist (# 17064) on
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Thanks guys - a useful thread.
I've just been writing to a lady whose husband has died, and I found the debate about wording very helpful.
(My apologies to hosts for being unhellish.)
Posted by Chorister (# 473) on
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quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
There is nothing remotely ambiguous about passed away. Some other methods of euphemism might be ambiguous, yes, but I cannot think of any other meaning for passed away.
There apparently is a real life priest called Pastor Way. It must get very confusing at funerals.
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Patdys:
If you do not use the most unambiguous blunt word in breaking news, then people will choose to misunderstand. A last little bit of denial.
You have evidence for this, I suppose? Some kind of study?
Posted by John D. Ward (# 1378) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by St. Gwladys:
I spoke to someone I hadn't seen for a long time - an acquaintance rather than a friend - and was told that her father had "passed". It took me a while to realise that she meant he had died. I've since heard "passed" a few times, and it still sounds odd.
If told that someone has "passed" without explanation, I would assume that "examination" was the implicit noun in the sentence, and my reply would be "Congratulations!"
Posted by Leorning Cniht (# 17564) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
There apparently is a real life priest called Pastor Way. It must get very confusing at funerals.
But "Pastor Way passed away" would make a great headline for an obituary.
Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on
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At the risk of being facetiously unHellish, I am reminded of this old joke , beautifully performed by John Cleese and Joe Melia at 1hr and 4 mins into the film.
Posted by rugasaw (# 7315) on
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Just from experience I would rather the news of a death be given to me succinctly as possible. So the few syllable word died is preferable to the more syllabled phrase passed away. Both will just as much but drawing it out any length is just a bit torturous.
Posted by rolyn (# 16840) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Arabella Purity Winterbottom:
Schools are often twitchy about talking honestly about suicides.
Factor in the 'copy-cat' risk to appreciate why this might be so.
Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Patdys:
If you do not use the most unambiguous blunt word in breaking news, then people will choose to misunderstand. A last little bit of denial.
You have evidence for this, I suppose? Some kind of study?
Funnily enough the counsellors and psychologists called into the school were saying there are some ... right now I don't have time to run off and look them up. No doubt, it being academic argument, there will be contrary articles too.
Posted by Jigsaw (# 11433) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by PeteC:
[crossposted with Cooked Oats ]
People are afraid of words. Even to the point of never saying them. But I call them as I see them.
Death
Cancer The Big C WTF? Even cancer nurses never use that word, for fear of upsetting the patient. I did, and upset the nurses.
Voldemort.
Oh, yes, we cancer nurses do use the word "cancer". It's important that we do. It's a word, not a sentence. I'm sorry that people had a different experience.
Posted by Jigsaw (# 11433) on
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Another euphemism that pisses me off:
I hate the automatic response "rest in peace" often posted on line when someone dies.
For example: I want John Peel to be remembered in the glorious sounds of the loud clashing music that he loved and shared with us.
Peace is the last thing I think he'd want.
Posted by IngoB (# 8700) on
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It's hard to say what's worse here. Is it the brutal heartlessness of "educating" people about the allowed manner of speaking when they are deeply hurt, or just plain timid? Is it the strutting of petty pride in "straight talking" that serves no purpose other than stripping language of its richness? Or is it the sad and faithless pandering to the lead culture's materialism that considers death to be the end?
I'll make a particular point of using such euphemism in future, in the hope to piss off some like-minded vocabulary fetishists. Let's hope this sorry thread passes away soon...
Posted by Palimpsest (# 16772) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
It's hard to say what's worse here. Is it the brutal heartlessness of "educating" people about the allowed manner of speaking when they are deeply hurt, or just plain timid? Is it the strutting of petty pride in "straight talking" that serves no purpose other than stripping language of its richness? Or is it the sad and faithless pandering to the lead culture's materialism that considers death to be the end?
I'll make a particular point of using such euphemism in future, in the hope to piss off some like-minded vocabulary fetishists. Let's hope this sorry thread passes away soon...
The OP complaint was about him being required to not use plain English and to always use euphemisms. That is as nasty as requiring someone to use plain English when they prefer to use a euphemism.
Posted by Patdys (# 9397) on
:
Mousie, yes. There are a lot more educational materials rather than studies but both exist. I'll post later from home rather than an iPhone.
Ingob, the thread has evolved into a discussion on effective communication in this area. You may choose any language style you wish, but if you want to communicate clearly and well, then yes, there are guidelines that assist.
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
The OP complaint was about him being required to not use plain English and to always use euphemisms.
But the thread has moved WAY on since the OP. There are plenty of stone-hearted krill fuckers wailing about the evils of ANYBODY using "passed away." Much as I hate to agree with IngoB, he's got this one nailed.
Posted by Lyda*Rose (# 4544) on
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It's the kind of judgmentalism -plain speak vs euphemism- on this thread that keeps some people from even trying to speak comfort to the bereaved. It seems better to keep silent than to offend. And that's sad. ![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
Posted by Patdys (# 9397) on
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If the two of you are referring to my posts, then I am at a loss and not seeing it. Feel free to educate me. Otherwise, I will toughen up and not look at things personally.
Posted by Arabella Purity Winterbottom (# 3434) on
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quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
quote:
Originally posted by Arabella Purity Winterbottom:
Schools are often twitchy about talking honestly about suicides.
Factor in the 'copy-cat' risk to appreciate why this might be so.
I work in adolescent mental health. My comment was about leaving kids to gossip and dramatise or giving them straightforward information. I know which is more likely to cause copycat, and it isn't the latter.
Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
It's the kind of judgmentalism -plain speak vs euphemism- on this thread that keeps some people from even trying to speak comfort to the bereaved. It seems better to keep silent than to offend. And that's sad.
I worked with bereaved people for 30 years. It's client-centred work. That is, I don't sit with them, in order to convince them of my view on life, but to listen to theirs. I'm not saying that this is easy, but I think if you start with that perspective, it helps. Of course, further down the road, you may end up offending some people, if you end up in a conflict, which can happen. The bereaved are often very very angry and guilty, and the fireworks can go off.
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Patdys:
If the two of you are referring to my posts, then I am at a loss and not seeing it. Feel free to educate me. Otherwise, I will toughen up and not look at things personally.
Fine. Here.
quote:
Originally posted by Patdys:
If you do not use the most unambiguous blunt word in breaking news, then people will choose to misunderstand. A last little bit of denial.
This is judgmental, hurtful, and inaccurate.
Posted by MrsBeaky (# 17663) on
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I finally feel strongly enough about something to venture into Hell: I may well live to regret that decision....
I function best by calling a spade a spade:I have faced the possible deaths of my brother and youngest daughter to cancer (thankfully both survived and their treatment was successful despite the prognosis) and in both cases would openly use the "death" word when talking about the situation but not when talking to them unless they used the word.The point being that despite my own preference for that language, it was more important to me to take my lead from them and see where we went in the conversations.
When my Dad was dying (it took two months)I would answer people's questions with clear references to this fact using the words "dead, death" because my father had faced the facts and called those shots.He was very clear that he was dying but right at the end he stopped using the word so I did too.
Some people couldn't cope with my choice of language in all three situations which begs the question of whether this was about me or them. As I was the potential bereaved person I carried on using the words that sat well with me.
As I've supported friends facing the death of a loved one, I've taken my lead from them and made forays into their euphemistic vocabulary even though I don't like it.
Surely in the name of all that good and holy it's not about my preferences but care for them in their need?
The rest of the time, I'll use the real word but if someone struggles with that I'll try to find out why and what it's tapping into in them rather than allowing myself to become too annoyed.....well on a good day I will!
Posted by rugasaw (# 7315) on
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MrsBeaky, I thought that was very well put.
Posted by Patdys (# 9397) on
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Mousie, you must be great with the bible the way you take quotes out of context. However, the word 'may' may have been better than 'will'.
Still, I am done. I will bow to your obvious experience in communicating breaking bad news. Besides, I need to go speak to a whale about sourcing some krill...
Posted by Palimpsest (# 16772) on
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As it happens, I wrote an e-mail to a friend this morning offering condolences on the death of her father. She used the word dying, I used the word death. Had she used a euphemism, I would almost certainly used the equivalent euphemism.
Last year when my mother died and I was notified by my brother, we used the plain words in our conversation. It's what I prefer in my bereavement and as my brother is a doctor, I think he found the plain term or medical terminology more comforting than Victorian euphemism.
Then again as an atheist I don't have many comforting stories such as gone to glory or hanging with God. Enriching the compost pile doesn't have the same comfort.
Posted by North East Quine (# 13049) on
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I don't think the Victorians can be blamed for euphemisms for death. They had a whole culture of death, complete with mourning clothes, jewellery displaying locks of hair, post-mortem photographs, etc etc. My gt gt grandfather committed suicide and the newspaper report included details of the rope with which he hung himself, how many inches his feet were from the ground when he was found, and who cut him down.
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on
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No, the Victorians were hung up on sex. It's we whose hang-ups involve death.
quote:
Originally posted by Patdys:
Mousie, you must be great with the bible the way you take quotes out of context.
What context? The rest of this post was about the OP, not mourning people. Nice dodge.
Posted by RuthW (# 13) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
It's hard to say what's worse here. Is it the brutal heartlessness of "educating" people about the allowed manner of speaking when they are deeply hurt, or just plain timid?
Oh please. As if you have ever given a shit about people's feelings on the Ship.
Posted by argona (# 14037) on
:
I answered the phone. It was my mother-in-law's nursing home.
"I have to tell you Mrs. xxxxxx has stopped breathing.
"Have you called and ambulance?"
"No."
"She needs a doctor. Have you called a doctor?"
"No, she's stopped breathing."
And then of course the penny dropped.
Posted by Palimpsest (# 16772) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:
I don't think the Victorians can be blamed for euphemisms for death. They had a whole culture of death, complete with mourning clothes, jewellery displaying locks of hair, post-mortem photographs, etc etc. My gt gt grandfather committed suicide and
Indeed they did. They also had a whole new industry, which grew up during the Civil War of undertaking and embalming and cemeteries. Those business men were especially fond of the euphemisms. One trade magazine was called "Casket and Sunny Side".
Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on
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To be fair, Paul also referred to those "who have fallen asleep"
Posted by IngoB (# 8700) on
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quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
Oh please. As if you have ever given a shit about people's feelings on the Ship.
First the obligatory bullshit defense: 1. Tu quoque fallacy. 2. I post mostly in Purg and Hell. 3. I have said sorry for posts in Purg when I hurt someone beyond the scope of argument.
But more importantly: I have had to deal with tragic deaths. Several times, in different settings, including one where a follow-on suicide was a present possibility. Enforcing proper vocabulary in these circumstances is just ... repugnant and absurd. Hell yeah, I did search for words at times, but for fear of losing people not precision.
Posted by Patdys (# 9397) on
:
IngoB, there is a distinct difference between language utilised in ongoing counselling and in breaking bad news. It reflects the different intent. And kindness and empathy can easily be expressed even in using plain unadorned English one syllable words. This has been reiterated over and over by many different posters.
In your cases, I suspect you were not breaking the news. And as many have said, in ongoing counselling, even being a friend, you take your cues from the bereaved.
Posted by Patdys (# 9397) on
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And both can occur in the one consult/visit/client meeting/ pastoral visit/coffee with a mate.
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Zappa:
To be fair, Paul also referred to those "who have fallen asleep"
I believe Jesus used the same euphemism about Lazarus. Although to be fair, one of his disciples took it exactly wrong, and he had to stop and get all literal on his ass. But if I had a nickel for every time the disciples took something bass-ackwards in the Gospels, I'd be at least one candy bar to the good. So I'm not sure that's terribly damning.
Posted by Patdys (# 9397) on
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I think if you can raise someone from the dead*, people probably won't give a shit what language you use.
*whatever
Posted by Anglo Catholic Relict (# 17213) on
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Our former churchyard groundsman, now dead, found his son dead one day. He never, ever used the word 'dead'. He said his son had fallen asleep. He called his grave a 'plot', and he insisted the churchyard was not a graveyard, but a churchyard. Nobody in our churchyard ever spoke of a 'grave' to dear B and got away with it. Nobody ever said his son was dead. But B knew. He found him dead. He knew.
He said it would be really strange to spend ten years looking after a graveyard with love and care, but perfectly fine to do so for a churchyard.
I see no reason to object that he coped with his life and the death of his son in the only way he could. Life had been brutal enough; there was no need for me to add to that.
But when I spoke of my husband, I used the word dead. In his case death was a merciful end to a very horrible existence, and not just for him. Still brutal, still terrible in its finality, still totally incomprehensible to me, but thank God he got there in the end.
B let me say dead of my husband. I let him say asleep of his son.
As for whether a candle in hell is redundant; imo it is an act of mercy; a candle in hell does not add to the heat, but reduces it.
Posted by Anglo Catholic Relict (# 17213) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Zappa:
To be fair, Paul also referred to those "who have fallen asleep"
In some Christian contexts the word dead is not appropriate. With apologies for those who do not share this point of view, there are no dead in Christ; those who have entered eternity are more alive than we are because they are closer to God.
To talk of saints being dead would therefore be a contradiction in terms. But to talk of them as alive without qualification would be also misleading; dear Paul is trying to find an alternative, and in context it is clear what he means. Asleep in relation to this world. Dead only to us; alive to God.
Posted by Anglo Catholic Relict (# 17213) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Zappa:
We had a suicide (again) at my school this morning.
I am very sorry to hear this.
Posted by Huia (# 3473) on
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My sister-in-law rang to say Dad was "going" I said "where?" ![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif)
I wasn't being funny, I just went blank about what she meant until she said his kidneys were failing. (Also he had once run away from the care home where he lived so I thought he was doing it again).
I don't really like "lost" either as for me it always has shades of Lady Bracknell.
Both of those are personal preferences. If someone who was bereaved used either word about the death I would honour their choice.
Huia
Posted by rolyn (# 16840) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:
I don't think the Victorians can be blamed for euphemisms for death.
Have a walk around any Churchyard and look at the epitaphs on tombstones if you want to see how sentimentality over death waxes and wanes.
The most popular one in Victorian times seems the to have been "Blessed our the dead which die in the Lord". I don't see much mincing of words there.
The 'passed away' thing seems to have crept in after the war.
Posted by sabine (# 3861) on
:
I mentioned cultural language once already, but I've been reminded of an example.
The people who live in the apartment downstairs from me are African-American. They refer to dying as "going home to the Lord."
It means a lot to them, even if it doesn't resonate with me. And when I discuss such things with them, I don't mind using their language.
In the end, it's the love and condolence I wish to offer--and sometimes I can make that more apparent if I use their language.
sabine
[ 03. August 2013, 15:07: Message edited by: sabine ]
Posted by RuthW (# 13) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
Oh please. As if you have ever given a shit about people's feelings on the Ship.
First the obligatory bullshit defense: 1. Tu quoque fallacy.
It's not a fallacy when you really are a hypocrite.
quote:
2. I post mostly in Purg and Hell. 3. I have said sorry for posts in Purg when I hurt someone beyond the scope of argument.
But more importantly: I have had to deal with tragic deaths. Several times, in different settings, including one where a follow-on suicide was a present possibility. Enforcing proper vocabulary in these circumstances is just ... repugnant and absurd. Hell yeah, I did search for words at times, but for fear of losing people not precision.
I don't give a shit what you've dealt with. Your behavior on these boards, even with the occasional apology in Purgatory, has been thoughtless enough for years to leave you with absolutely no credibility when you try to accuse others of "brutal heartlessness."
[ 04. August 2013, 03:33: Message edited by: RuthW ]
Posted by The5thMary (# 12953) on
:
I also can't stand any word other than dead but sometimes, to be extra snotty with syrupy individuals I will say "kicked the bucket". For instance, I was talking to some smarmy individual who was going on and on about the saving blood of Jesus (ick!) and she asked when my parents died. Told her my dad kicked the bucket when I was eight and my mom kicked it even harder four years later. Syrupy individual was shocked all the way down to her sensible shoes and looked at me as if I was a minion of Satan.
Maybe people use "passed on" because saying someone is dead is so... deadening? I'm not trying to be funny here. The actual word is kind of like concrete or marble. Just massive and lonely and... final. I don't know...
Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on
:
When threads die, my preferred euphemism is 'locked'.
Posted by Palimpsest (# 16772) on
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Wikipedia has a wide range of expressions related to death. I've never used it, but I do like the phrase "gone west".
Posted by IngoB (# 8700) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
It's not a fallacy when you really are a hypocrite.
Wrong, it remains a fallacy no matter what.
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
I don't give a shit what you've dealt with.
I'm not looking for special consideration due to my past. I simply note that I speak from experience here.
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
Your behavior on these boards, even with the occasional apology in Purgatory, has been thoughtless enough for years to leave you with absolutely no credibility when you try to accuse others of "brutal heartlessness."
As far as Purgatory goes, my attitude is "If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen." It is a place for argument, not for social niceties. And I believe that I take at least as much as I dish out there, on average.
You can believe that "IngoB in Purgatory" is all there is to me, rather than simply an internet persona of me. That's a pretty dumb belief, but whatever... However, I need no credibility to point out that playing vocabulary nazi concerning death is brutal and heartless. That is simply self-evident and requires no support based on my person.
Posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras (# 11274) on
:
I know someone IRL who tells me that IngoB IRL is a very kind person. I believe my RL friend; it's just a pity we see so little evidence of it on the Ship. I also understand - I think - Ingo's deliberate approach to SoF posting. It just seems to me that Christian argument and apologetics without any semblance of humanity, humility and charity is a pretty pointless exercise, at least if the goal were to be to convince anyone. While that may not, indeed, be Ingo's goal in posting, one would think that the effect of such posting shouldn't be to actively alienate others, yet it is that at which IngoB would often seem to be most successful.
Just thought: Hope referring to an RL communication to the effect that Ingo is actually a very kind person doesn't constitute a commandment violation. That hadn't previously occurred to me, but I guess I'll take my chances now.
[ 04. August 2013, 12:50: Message edited by: Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras ]
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
It's hard to say what's worse here. Is it the brutal heartlessness of "educating" people about the allowed manner of speaking when they are deeply hurt, or just plain timid?
<snip>
I'll make a particular point of using such euphemism in future, in the hope to piss off some like-minded vocabulary fetishists. Let's hope this sorry thread passes away soon...
Not certain anyone here is attempting to "educate" anyone. The OP'er vented, others have opined. I've not done a ledger, but ISTM, the balance of posts seem to be towards using whatever terms help the hearer.
This by Gwai
quote:
And anyone who doesn't use it the way we do is grating sand on a grieving soul.
is an issue. We do not not always know beforehand what the listener wishes to hear. If two grieve the same death, who's terminology are they obligated to use?
quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
I know someone IRL who tells me that IngoB IRL is a very kind person.
What we, any of us, are without this hull is irrelevant to the discussions within. This statement is not intended to be harsh, it simply the manner in which these things work.
Posted by Firenze (# 619) on
:
I say Dead. Died. Rolled round in earth's diurnal course with rocks and stones and trees. No passing over and all the trumpets sounding on the other side. I really don't mind though what expression is used - so long as people say something and don't avoid you as if death were catching.
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
It just seems to me that Christian argument and apologetics without any semblance of humanity, humility and charity is a pretty pointless exercise, at least if the goal were to be to convince anyone.
Ingo has stated repeatedly that his goal in arguing is getting off on winning. We are his sex toys.
Posted by Chesterbelloc (# 3128) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
It just seems to me that Christian argument and apologetics without any semblance of humanity, humility and charity is a pretty pointless exercise, at least if the goal were to be to convince anyone.
Ingo has stated repeatedly that his goal in arguing is getting off on winning. We are his sex toys.
Whilst we're talking about hypocrisy, let me state the choke-makingly obvious.
There have been plenty IngoBees of the liberal-left persuasion on the Ship who get/got nothing short of adulation - most of the time from most of the most prolific posters here - for their often more brutal and less nuanced "frankness" in the "opposite" direction.
Let's be a tiny bit aware of our own prejudices here, shall we? We all has thems.
[ 04. August 2013, 21:48: Message edited by: Chesterbelloc ]
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Chesterbelloc:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
It just seems to me that Christian argument and apologetics without any semblance of humanity, humility and charity is a pretty pointless exercise, at least if the goal were to be to convince anyone.
Ingo has stated repeatedly that his goal in arguing is getting off on winning. We are his sex toys.
Whilst we're talking about hypocrisy, let me state the choke-makingly obvious.
There have been plenty IngoBees of the liberal-left persuasion on the Ship who get/got nothing short of adulation - most of the time from most of the most prolific posters here - for their often more brutal and less nuanced "frankness" in the "opposite" direction.
Let's be a tiny bit aware of our own prejudices here, shall we? We all has thems.
Which liberal guy has ever said the chief reason he was here was to beat other people in arguments? Which one? Shall I tell you which one? I'll tell you which one. NONE OF THEM. You are creating a false equivalence.
Posted by Chesterbelloc (# 3128) on
:
Which have made that specific claim? None I can think of. But then that wasn't my point, was it?
Which of us honestly can't think of some gods or demi-gods of this site who will generally get away with anything, without criticism from anyone but comparative "geeks", that is every bit as fuck-you arrogant/no-prisoners-taken as anything that IngoB typically psots, so long as it's on or from the liberal end of the spectrum? Hands on hearts?
This isn't a complaint - I love this place too, you know - so much an apparently non-redundant reality-check.
Posted by QLib (# 43) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Chesterbelloc:
Which of us honestly can't think of some gods or demi-gods of this site who will generally get away with anything, without criticism from anyone but comparative "geeks", that is every bit as fuck-you arrogant/no-prisoners-taken as anything that IngoB typically psots, so long as it's on or from the liberal end of the spectrum? Hands on hearts?
Well, like MT, I'm struggling to come up with a name. And who are these geeks who have the courage to criticise popular fuck-you arrogant liberals that no one else wants or dares to tackle?
The thing is that, however snide and pissy us liberals may be, the liberal position doesn't really allow for a kind of "well, I'm sorry if you don't like it, but you're just wrong" approach.
Posted by Chesterbelloc (# 3128) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by QLib:
The thing is that, however snide and pissy us liberals may be, the liberal position doesn't really allow for a kind of "well, I'm sorry if you don't like it, but you're just wrong" approach.
Okay, now I know you guys are shitting me.
Posted by South Coast Kevin (# 16130) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Chesterbelloc:
Which have made that specific claim? None I can think of. But then that wasn't my point, was it?
Which of us honestly can't think of some gods or demi-gods of this site who will generally get away with anything, without criticism from anyone but comparative "geeks", that is every bit as fuck-you arrogant/no-prisoners-taken as anything that IngoB typically psots, so long as it's on or from the liberal end of the spectrum? Hands on hearts?
It seems appropriate to mention this thread...
Posted by IngoB (# 8700) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
I know someone IRL who tells me that IngoB IRL is a very kind person.
What we, any of us, are without this hull is irrelevant to the discussions within.
Agreed. While I appreciate LSK's friends' comment, I did not and do not ask for any real life credit here.
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Ingo has stated repeatedly that his goal in arguing is getting off on winning. We are his sex toys.
I get off on arguing more than on winning. And in terms of your analogy, I consider Purgatory to be a swinger's club. A regular patron complaining about being used for sex is odd there. I think you are just angry that I use you as a mere butt plug. But hey, your posts are short and flared, and you are a pain in the ass...
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
I think you are just angry that I use you as a mere butt plug.
It pleases me to let you think that, since it makes you so happy.
Posted by RuthW (# 13) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
You can believe that "IngoB in Purgatory" is all there is to me, rather than simply an internet persona of me. That's a pretty dumb belief, but whatever...
Good thing I don't subscribe to it then. But all I know and deal with is the internet persona, which is pretty scummy sometimes. It doesn't matter how decent or kind or whatever you are in real life -- here you have gone on record that you regard Purgatory as a boxing ring and the rest of us as punching bags.
Chesterbelloc, have the courage of your convictions and name names. If you don't, you're sacrificing credibility. And coming off as rather whiny.
Posted by Chesterbelloc (# 3128) on
:
[ETA: On second thoughts, I can live with that, Ruth.]
[ 05. August 2013, 08:05: Message edited by: Chesterbelloc ]
Posted by IngoB (# 8700) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
here you have gone on record that you regard Purgatory as a boxing ring and the rest of us as punching bags.
No, I haven't. As you would know if you knew something about boxing...
There are no punching bags in a boxing ring. In the ring one boxes with trainers, sparring partners and, occasionally, opponents in a fair match with rules.
Posted by Anglo Catholic Relict (# 17213) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
Wikipedia has a wide range of expressions related to death. I've never used it, but I do like the phrase "gone west".
I have heard 'gone west' used by those members of my family who come from Yorkshire, of anything permanently gone, by whatever means; perhaps broken, or stolen or dead. It denotes completely out of reach, never to be seen again. Gone.
A vase can be said to have 'gone west' if it has fallen from a table and smashed. A plan to go on holiday has 'gone west' if it has to be cancelled.
It is less likely to be used of someone who has died, unless the person concerned is of no real interest, or is the subject of a degree of animosity. I have never heard it used of close family or friends.
Posted by Anglo Catholic Relict (# 17213) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
There are no punching bags in a boxing ring. In the ring one boxes with trainers, sparring partners and, occasionally, opponents in a fair match with rules.
I have heard of punch bags. I did not know they could hit back.
What fun.
Posted by Anglo Catholic Relict (# 17213) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Which liberal guy has ever said the chief reason he was here was to beat other people in arguments? Which one? Shall I tell you which one? I'll tell you which one. NONE OF THEM. You are creating a false equivalence.
I am not sure this is totally fair.
With the exception of the confessional, most people do not generally go around being honest about their motivation to anyone who will listen. Or indeed even to themselves.
Istm, liberals are as likely to want to be right, and indeed as certain that they are, as the next person. We all need to engage in a degree of reality checking once in a while, and not just with people who we know will automatically think exactly as we do.
Posted by Pine Marten (# 11068) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Anglo Catholic Relict:
quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
Wikipedia has a wide range of expressions related to death. I've never used it, but I do like the phrase "gone west".
I have heard 'gone west' used by those members of my family who come from Yorkshire, of anything permanently gone, by whatever means; perhaps broken, or stolen or dead. It denotes completely out of reach, never to be seen again. Gone.
A vase can be said to have 'gone west' if it has fallen from a table and smashed. A plan to go on holiday has 'gone west' if it has to be cancelled.
It is less likely to be used of someone who has died, unless the person concerned is of no real interest, or is the subject of a degree of animosity. I have never heard it used of close family or friends.
I'm from London and used to hear 'gone west' as in most of ACR's examples. I've also said 'kicked the bucket' as mentioned above. Another is 'popped his/her clogs', which admittedly I haven't heard for a while.
I can't bear 'passed', 'passed away', and have usually quite firmly said 'died'. It is shockingly final, and sobering, and lonely, as The5thMary said.
Posted by Erroneous Monk (# 10858) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
I know someone IRL who tells me that IngoB IRL is a very kind person.
What we, any of us, are without this hull is irrelevant to the discussions within. This statement is not intended to be harsh, it simply the manner in which these things work.
IngoB has been very kind to me here on the Ship, possibly because he's a kind man.
Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on
:
"'E's not pinin'! 'E's passed on! This parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! 'E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker! 'E's a stiff! Bereft of life, 'e rests in peace! If you hadn't nailed 'im to the perch 'e'd be pushing up the daisies! 'Is metabolic processes are now 'istory! 'E's off the twig! 'E's kicked the bucket, 'e's shuffled off 'is mortal coil, run down the curtain and joined the bleedin' choir invisible!! THIS IS AN EX-PARROT!!"
It had to be done ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
Posted by Porridge (# 15405) on
:
And even there, 'e 'adn't passed away.
Posted by Evensong (# 14696) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by QLib:
The thing is that, however snide and pissy us liberals may be, the liberal position doesn't really allow for a kind of "well, I'm sorry if you don't like it, but you're just wrong" approach.
It doesn't?
I've been doing it wrong all this time??
But nobody told me!
Posted by Yam-pk (# 12791) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
"'E's not pinin'! 'E's passed on! This parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! 'E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker! 'E's a stiff! Bereft of life, 'e rests in peace! If you hadn't nailed 'im to the perch 'e'd be pushing up the daisies! 'Is metabolic processes are now 'istory! 'E's off the twig! 'E's kicked the bucket, 'e's shuffled off 'is mortal coil, run down the curtain and joined the bleedin' choir invisible!! THIS IS AN EX-PARROT!!"
It had to be done
![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on
:
Surely, liberals are always telling people they're wrong? The most dangerous people in the world, I reckon.
Posted by RuthW (# 13) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
here you have gone on record that you regard Purgatory as a boxing ring and the rest of us as punching bags.
No, I haven't. As you would know if you knew something about boxing...
There are no punching bags in a boxing ring. In the ring one boxes with trainers, sparring partners and, occasionally, opponents in a fair match with rules.
It's a shame you don't remember it, but I do. You said you regarded Purgatory as a boxing ring. I said, so you regard the rest of us a punching bags. And you said, yeah, pretty much.
Posted by IngoB (# 8700) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
It's a shame you don't remember it, but I do. You said you regarded Purgatory as a boxing ring. I said, so you regard the rest of us a punching bags. And you said, yeah, pretty much.
The boxing / boxing ring analogy is clear and I have always maintained it in the same way. Since you provide no link to our supposed conversation, I cannot judge what was going on there. If your memory is not faulty, then this must have been a careless response to a misinterpretation.
At any rate, I do not think that I only pick on the utterly defenseless, or that I just follow a routine without reacting to responses. So how am I just "punching heavy bags" on SoF? I would say sparring and occasional match fighting is a pretty good analogy, including the building up of relationships that come with such practices.
Posted by QLib (# 43) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:
Originally posted by QLib:
The thing is that, however snide and pissy us liberals may be, the liberal position doesn't really allow for a kind of "well, I'm sorry if you don't like it, but you're just wrong" approach.
It doesn't?
I've been doing it wrong all this time??
But nobody told me!
Yes, OK, not terribly clear. Let me try again. Some adherents of certain branches of the faith will deliver a verdict of wrongness from which they claim a sort of detachment:
quote:
Oh, it's not me who says you're wrong - perish the thought! No, no, no - this is not a matter of opinion - I actually know you are wrong because I know what God/the Bible/The Church says on this subject
It is this type of I'm- terribly- sorry -but- you're- headed- straight- for- Hell stance that is incompatible with liberalism. Of course, I didn't mean that liberals never suggest somebody is wrong - and what's more I don't really believe that that's what anybody really thought I was saying. Buncha wind-up merchants.
Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
It's a shame you don't remember it, but I do. You said you regarded Purgatory as a boxing ring. I said, so you regard the rest of us a punching bags. And you said, yeah, pretty much.
The boxing / boxing ring analogy is clear and I have always maintained it in the same way. Since you provide no link to our supposed conversation, I cannot judge what was going on there. If your memory is not faulty, then this must have been a careless response to a misinterpretation.
At any rate, I do not think that I only pick on the utterly defenseless, or that I just follow a routine without reacting to responses. So how am I just "punching heavy bags" on SoF? I would say sparring and occasional match fighting is a pretty good analogy, including the building up of relationships that come with such practices.
You're right, you haven't been picking on the defenceless. Unfortunately you appear to have spent way too much time in the ring with the usual, inevitable, outcome.
Posted by RuthW (# 13) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
At any rate, I do not think that I only pick on the utterly defenseless, or that I just follow a routine without reacting to responses. So how am I just "punching heavy bags" on SoF?
Learn to read. What I said was that you are thoughtless and thus have no credibitility when you accuse others of "brutal heartlessness."
Posted by Eliab (# 9153) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
Learn to read. What I said was that you are thoughtless and thus have no credibitility when you accuse others of "brutal heartlessness."
FWIW, I've sometimes found IngoB tactless, but never thoughtless or heartless.
Posted by Chesterbelloc (# 3128) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by QLib:
Of course, I didn't mean that liberals never suggest somebody is wrong - and what's more I don't really believe that that's what anybody really thought I was saying.
I can assure you, QLib, that I certainly never thought you were saying that. I don't think anyone would ever accuse you of that level of obtuseness. What I thought you were saying was what you actually did say:
quote:
Originally posted by QLib:
the liberal position doesn't really allow for a kind of "well, I'm sorry if you don't like it, but you're just wrong" approach.
After the number of times the "liberal position" (on a variety of issues) has been presented on the Ship as plain self-evident and beyond reasonable dispute (despite actual reasons being proferred in return), you'll have to forgive me for thinking that many "liberals" didn't get your memo.
Posted by IngoB (# 8700) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
Learn to read. What I said was that you are thoughtless and thus have no credibitility when you accuse others of "brutal heartlessness."
Indeed, you said that, and I've taken it apart here and here. Then you made an additional unsubstantiated claim, and that's what I've dealt with now.
Given that you are merely repeating yourself at this point, I reckon we are done?
Posted by RuthW (# 13) on
:
Oh, I'm sure you're (self-)satisfied.
Posted by IngoB (# 8700) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
Oh, I'm sure you're (self-)satisfied.
Certainly. But out of curiosity, what outcome would have satisfied you?
Posted by RooK (# 1852) on
:
Out of curiosity, IngoB, could you clear up a few things for me?
1) Are you claiming that you sometimes "pull your punches" in a debate?
2) When you have apologized for hurting someone's feelings, was it based solely on the aggrieved person's assertion of injury?
Posted by BroJames (# 9636) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
It's a shame you don't remember it, but I do. You said you regarded Purgatory as a boxing ring. I said, so you regard the rest of us a punching bags. And you said, yeah, pretty much.
The boxing / boxing ring analogy is clear and I have always maintained it in the same way. Since you provide no link to our supposed conversation, I cannot judge what was going on there. If your memory is not faulty, then this must have been a careless response to a misinterpretation.
At any rate, I do not think that I only pick on the utterly defenseless, or that I just follow a routine without reacting to responses. So how am I just "punching heavy bags" on SoF? I would say sparring and occasional match fighting is a pretty good analogy, including the building up of relationships that come with such practices.
Judging by this the original conversation was some time ago.
Posted by IngoB (# 8700) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by RooK:
1) Are you claiming that you sometimes "pull your punches" in a debate?
I do that quite regularly, in fact. But that's a different matter... Sticking with boxing terms, I sometimes deal serious low blows, and when I recognise that, then I apologise.
quote:
Originally posted by RooK:
2) When you have apologized for hurting someone's feelings, was it based solely on the aggrieved person's assertion of injury?
No. That someone claims injury is evidence for, but not proof of, me doing wrong. I apologise when I reckon that I actually have done wrong.
Mind you, that concerns SoF, and mostly SoF Purgatory at that. I simply think that by participating in a public discussion forum on the internet on contentious topics you are willingly exposing yourself to some bruising.
Posted by Zach82 (# 3208) on
:
I actually like arguing with IngoB. It's really a pain in the ass when he can't conceive of the fact that sometimes people are basically on the same side as him. Last time we went at it, he said I was wrong and infinitely far from him because of my "rotten invincibly wrong Protestant core" or something unfathomably stupid like that, completely forgetting that he treats his fellow Catholics as equally wrong and stupid all the time.
But hey, I can't hold that against him if I expect to get away with the shit I expect to get away with, nu?
[ 06. August 2013, 10:45: Message edited by: Zach82 ]
Posted by argona (# 14037) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by argona:
I answered the phone. It was my mother-in-law's nursing home.
"I have to tell you Mrs. xxxxxx has stopped breathing.
"Have you called and ambulance?"
"No."
"She needs a doctor. Have you called a doctor?"
"No, she's stopped breathing."
And then of course the penny dropped.
I was called away before I could finish what I wanted to say here.
Years earlier, I took the call from my first wife's mother telling us that my then father-in-law had died in his sleep. I went to my wife in another room, sat on the arm of her chair, put my arm around her and said, "I'm sorry darling, your father's died." She immediately rushed to the phone, told me later she had seen instantly that something was wrong but - having recently had a scan for a suspected brain tumour (there wasn't one) - she'd thought it was bad news from the hospital.
As for me, I was told fairly bluntly that my father had died by a brother-in-law, while I was in a noisy, crowded staffroom. I sat stunned, until eventually someone noticed something was wrong.
The right way to announce or talk about death is so variable. If you know the person you're talking to well enough, you can choose direct or elliptical. If you don't, give the benefit of the doubt. Be gentle, allusive, until you have the measure of them.
[ 06. August 2013, 12:34: Message edited by: argona ]
Posted by moron (# 206) on
:
Most I can say now is if IngoB is a sock I want to meet the foot.
Or hand or whatever.
And feel free to admit you do too. Is OK.
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by moron:
Most I can say now is if IngoB is a sock I want to meet the foot.
Or hand or whatever.
And feel free to admit you do too. Is OK.
"Although rooted in early developmental stages, and classed by Vaillant as an immature defence, the projection of one's negative qualities onto others on a small scale is nevertheless a common process in everyday life." --Wikipedia
Posted by Chorister (# 473) on
:
Once again, it all seems to be about IngoB rather than the bereaved. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
Posted by Caissa (# 16710) on
:
I find IngoB's posts always worth skipping over.
Posted by Chesterbelloc (# 3128) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
Once again, it all seems to be about IngoB rather than the bereaved.
I hardly think we can blame IngoB for that.
Posted by Patdys (# 9397) on
:
The evolution of a Hell thread...
It was clearly not developed by a creator being. In the beginning was Zappa, and he saw what he created and it was naff. Just doesn't work you see.
Even more clearly, intelligent design had nothing to do with it.
So evolution seems the most likely choice. So what are the characteristics for the threads survival over its competitors.
Villians to boo and hiss. Pick yours. Is it the moron who had the temerity to discuss effective use of language in delivering bad news? Those who disagree? Or those who just love to post incessantly?
Humour. There are some posts to make you smile.
Love. I agree with x's posts.
Naughty words.
Godwin's law variant.
Wow what a thread. Truly a bright bouncy Hell thread.
And then, and to my chagrin, only halfway through this post, I remembered.
A 16 year old boy has commit suicide and a community is grieving.
I hope this thread doesn't live to reproduce.
Posted by QLib (# 43) on
:
Are we never to discuss grief or the language of death, euphemisms and otherwise, because somebody somewhere is grieving?
Posted by Patdys (# 9397) on
:
No, we should discuss these things because they are important. Purgatory threads should flourish.
What I realised whilst playing with my post identifying the way in which this thread has meandered is that I had forgot the importance of the OP.
I had forgotten Zappa's initial scream* of rage and outrage. And I am sorry.
*my interpretation.
Posted by QLib (# 43) on
:
Fair enough.
Posted by PeteC (# 10422) on
:
I wonder what euphemisms people can come up to describe the death of two little boys squeezed to death by a python? Said python had escaped from the exotic pet store below the apartment they were living in.
And no, I won't post a link. You google it.CBC covers it all on-line in loving detail, but I haven't read it.
And I haven't forgotten Zappa's student. He has been in my prayers.
Posted by IngoB (# 8700) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Patdys:
I had forgotten Zappa's initial scream* of rage and outrage. And I am sorry.
I for one haven't. And it still rings false and inappropriate to me.
quote:
Originally posted by PeteC:
I wonder what euphemisms people can come up to describe the death of two little boys squeezed to death by a python? Said python had escaped from the exotic pet store below the apartment they were living in.
The euphemism are not typically an attempt to falsify the truth of what has happened. They are an attempt to comfort the living by not making them face in words as well what they are facing in reality anyhow.
But no, we must rub their faces into their pain and grief by keeping it straight and talking plain? Bollocks to that. If bluntness helps the bereaved, then bluntness it is is. If it is beating around the bush, then that is the way to go. And people usually start with the euphemisms because it is easier to move from euphemism to plain talking than vice versa.
Now, if we could not tell from the news what is happening, because the truth was buried in indecipherable euphemisms, then indeed we would have a problem. But that is not the case. Words spoken about death among other people are clear enough.
Finally, the euphemism "passed away" the OP so unfortunately rages about isn't really an euphemism any longer. That's so common and standard, it's basically a synonym for "dead" anyhow. It's just a polite way of saying the same thing. One would have to have a rather poor knowledge of English to follow up on that with "Where did he go?"
Posted by Patdys (# 9397) on
:
Round and round the merry go round*, like a teddy bear.
One step two step.... Tickle under there.
Do you need a tickle IngoB?
Why else would you be going around the merry go round?
*carousel
Posted by IngoB (# 8700) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Patdys:
Do you need a tickle IngoB?
Why else would you be going around the merry go round?
I was responding to you and PeteC. If you want this thread to stop, lead by example.
Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Patdys:
No, we should discuss these things because they are important. Purgatory threads should flourish.
What I realised whilst playing with my post identifying the way in which this thread has meandered is that I had forgot the importance of the OP.
I had forgotten Zappa's initial scream* of rage and outrage. And I am sorry.
*my interpretation.
And then you still posted it.
You didn't like its tone, as you were writing it, because you had forgotten the OP - then you went ahead and posted it anyway?
This apology seems pretty empty to me. If you were actually sorry you would have remained silent as soon as you realised your post was inappropriate.
I am one of the ones who used humour. Which is very common here in the North West UK. You get more laughs at funerals than anywhere else. It's the way we deal with things.
Posted by QLib (# 43) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by Patdys:
I had forgotten Zappa's initial scream* of rage and outrage. And I am sorry.
I for one haven't. And it still rings false and inappropriate to me.
OK, so we should listen to you because you have experience of responding to tragic deaths - wow, how unique does that make you? - but Zappa's thoughts and feelings are invalid because you judge them to be inauthentic? You said:
quote:
Enforcing proper vocabulary in these circumstances is just ... repugnant and absurd.
Yet you seem to be ignoring the fact that this enforcement is the core of Zappa's complaint. You talk about respecting the feelings of the bereaved but there are differing degrees of bereavement. When a young person dies by suicide, whole communities can be affected and part of the family's sad burden surely has to be dealing with the fact that there is a very public element to what has happened that needs a very public response. Zappa spoke about what he wants to say to the community he is serving - so disagree all you like but don't bother trying to convince anyone that your experience is more authentic than his.
Posted by IngoB (# 8700) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by QLib:
OK, so we should listen to you because you have experience of responding to tragic deaths - wow, how unique does that make you? - but Zappa's thoughts and feelings are invalid because you judge them to be inauthentic?
No, you are supposed to listen to me because I make sense, and I'm not considering Zappa's thoughts and feelings on this matter inauthentic, but stupid.
quote:
Originally posted by QLib:
Yet you seem to be ignoring the fact that this enforcement is the core of Zappa's complaint.
Zappa's uppers are almost as wrong as Zappa if they universally insist on just one mode for speaking about death. Only almost as wrong, because - as mentioned - it is easier to move from euphemisms to bluntness rather than vice versa, and 'passed away' is basically a polite synonym for 'dead' anyhow. Thus Zappa's uppers at least insisted on an overall "safer" mode of speaking. And as far as speaking to the public about death is concerned, playing it safe is not unreasonable.
I do not in fact believe that this is a major issue. It will not generally make much difference whether people get to hear 'dead' or 'passed away'. But it was Zappa ranting here, so it is also him (rather than his uppers) who gets to hear that being anal about these matters is dumb.
quote:
Originally posted by QLib:
Zappa spoke about what he wants to say to the community he is serving - so disagree all you like but don't bother trying to convince anyone that your experience is more authentic than his.
I never made a claim about my experiences being "more authentic" than Zappa's. (What does that even mean here?)
Posted by QLib (# 43) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
I'm not considering Zappa's thoughts and feelings on this matter inauthentic, but stupid. ... I never made a claim about my experiences being "more authentic" than Zappa's. (What does that even mean here?)
You accused his OP of being "false", which suggests that you know what hits the right note and waht doesn't. Since then, you haven't made out a case for Zappa being stupid, you've merely explained why you don't agree with him. I have to say, if you're trying not to come over as an arrogant twat, you aren't trying hard enough, In My Humble Liberal Opinion.
Posted by IngoB (# 8700) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by QLib:
You accused his OP of being "false", which suggests that you know what hits the right note and waht doesn't.
Nope. The OP claimed that "there's no use fuck-arsing around with wussy platitudes." That's false and inappropriate. I can say so without thereby claiming that I know the best thing to say in all cases. All I need to know is that there are uses for fuck-arsing around with wussy platitudes. And I have enough experience with dealing with death to know that.
(I do not understand the OP as making a point tightly restricted to one specific situation in one specific case. Rather I understand it as making a general point based on a current example. But the majority of posters commenting after the OP and before me also took the OP this way.)
quote:
Originally posted by QLib:
Since then, you haven't made out a case for Zappa being stupid, you've merely explained why you don't agree with him.
I have argued that insisting on plain talking about death is stupid, here and here. If Zappa is doing that, as the OP suggests, he hence is being stupid.
quote:
Originally posted by QLib:
I have to say, if you're trying not to come over as an arrogant twat, you aren't trying hard enough, In My Humble Liberal Opinion.
I'm not particularly concerned whether I appear as "arrogant twat" or not. What I work to be seen as in my postings is being honest, candid, reliable, careful, informed and invested. I sometimes do not live up to that, but I do try.
Posted by Caissa (# 16710) on
:
The OP was dealing with a specific case. It seems pretty clear upon reading it.
Posted by welsh dragon (# 3249) on
:
I think it is difficult to be prescriptive as to how best to talk about death.
Some people will say of someone they loved profoundly that they "passed away", that they are in the hands of God, that they have been "taken".
It is alright to be accepting and it is alright to be angry or disbelieving or mute with grief.
When I was a junior doctor, my preferred way of breaking bad news of a diagnosis was to discuss with the person what they understood so far of the issues concerned and what they had thought the tests had been for. Usually, the bad news was in their minds already and it was very helpful to be able to use their own language/ understanding/ hopes and fears as a starting point.
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by QLib:
Zappa spoke about what he wants to say to the community he is serving
Yes. Zappa wants to ride roughshod over the raw emotions of the community he is serving. And as has been pointed out multiple times in this thread, that's callous and wrong.
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on
:
Actually, I really fucking doubt that Zap expressed a single word in the OP to any congregant. He expressed it here, because we here understand the healing power of bitching about minutiae.
And for the record-- isn't it pretty damn clear that Zappa is one of the bereaved? If not-- he so totally is. On my life. Could not be more positive.
So-- bereaved folk tend to get extra snippy about minutiae. That's pretty much my point with that. Someone else in his congregation bursts into sobs over the lack of tangerine slices in the post-funeral ambrosia, he get pissy about "Passed away." Same difference
[ 10. August 2013, 22:14: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Actually, I really fucking doubt that Zap expressed a single word in the OP to any congregant.
Of course not. He just wanted to.
Props on letting off steam. Although one can go to far and become a Cosmo.
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on
:
Zaps? Nah. Never.
You do know what I mean about the pissiness of grief, don't you? When my dad died, I left the hospital to discover the parking garage had closed with my car in it. I had a fit right there in the street, fell sobbing into my ex-husband's arms. Bereaved people are loose cannons, an untied shoelace could set them off.
[ 10. August 2013, 22:52: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
Posted by RuthW (# 13) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Zappa wants to ride roughshod over the raw emotions of the community he is serving. And as has been pointed out multiple times in this thread, that's callous and wrong.
You not only know what is in Zappa's heart, but you can't conceive of the possibility that his pastoral skills are such that he is properly able to judge what words to use when a student has killed himself? He knows these kids, he's dealt with student suicides before, but he's wrong? And you, not a minister, not in any contact with these particular people -- you know better than he does what he should say?
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
Oh, I'm sure you're (self-)satisfied.
Certainly. But out of curiosity, what outcome would have satisfied you?
I never expected to be satisfied -- I rarely am when discussing things with you.
FWIW, I agree about when to use bluntness and when to use euphemisms. But when you come trundling into a thread to dress people down for "brutal heartlessness" and "the strutting of petty pride," I still think it's rank hypocrisy on your part.
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Zappa wants to ride roughshod over the raw emotions of the community he is serving. And as has been pointed out multiple times in this thread, that's callous and wrong.
You not only know what is in Zappa's heart, but you can't conceive of the possibility that his pastoral skills are such that he is properly able to judge what words to use when a student has killed himself? He knows these kids, he's dealt with student suicides before, but he's wrong? And you, not a minister, not in any contact with these particular people -- you know better than he does what he should say?
You would be well-served to look at the interactions I had with Kelly between this post and your posting. Probably won't do any good, actually, come to think of it. Never mind.
Posted by RuthW (# 13) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
You would be well-served to look at the interactions I had with Kelly between this post and your posting. Probably won't do any good, actually, come to think of it. Never mind.
I did read every single post, and in your most recent one, you reiterated your claim about what Zappa wanted, something you don't know.
Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by Patdys:
I had forgotten Zappa's initial scream* of rage and outrage. And I am sorry.
I for one haven't. And it still rings false and inappropriate to me.
And also with you.
Posted by piglet (# 11803) on
:
My father-in-law died while we were over in the UK on holiday a couple of weeks ago, and I confess I used the expression "p***** a***" when I phoned members of my own family to let them know. I don't really know why; when I go back to work tomorrow and tell my boss, I'll probably say "died".
Maybe it's something to do with the age or perceived sensibilities of the person you're talking to - I don't know.
Posted by no prophet (# 15560) on
:
I dunno. I agree with the OP. We don't talk birth as 'came to life' so as to avoid saying 'born'. I am also sorely tired of people having "heroic battles" with whatever killed them. No-one I've watched die was heroic in death. Some were completed gorked, others were afraid, and others were ministering to the soon-to-be-bereaved. Dignity maybe. Heroic hardly. Dead all.
Posted by Chorister (# 473) on
:
Yes, and it helps for people to know that, rather than be left thinking that their relative was the only one who couldn't handle it when the time came.
I guess it's rather like the 'last words on the deathbed' myth, where everyone is supposed to say something significant, memorable and lasting, to either their loved ones or to the whole of society. Tosh!
Posted by MrsBeaky (# 17663) on
:
Originally posted by no prophet:
quote:
I am also sorely tired of people having "heroic battles" with whatever killed them.
As I said further up the thread, is the situation about me or someone else? I agree with you people who are bereaved sometimes use ridiculous language be it robust or euphemistic. Zappa's OP was robust.
But bloody hell, no prophet, sometimes it isn't about us, you know!
My eldest daughter's first child was stillborn. For a whole week, she ate like a foie gras goose to try to put enough flesh on him so they could deliver him early. He did put on 500g but he died in utero. At his funeral, my daughter talked of her brave little boy and how proud she was of him for trying so hard to survive. She needed to say those words, no matter how unrealistic they seem to other people.(Brave, choice to grow?)
I know this Hell and scary territory for me, so I'll leave it there but perhaps there is food for thought?
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by MrsBeaky:
I know this Hell and scary territory for me, so I'll leave it there but perhaps there is food for thought?
For people capable of thinking, it should be. For those who insist everybody feel things exactly the way they do, probably not.
Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on
:
I always make sure I include the words "died" or "dead" at least once in any funeral service I take (except perhaps in the case of small children or suicides). My aim is being "cruel to be kind" and emphasise that N. has not just "gone into the next room" ![[Projectile]](graemlins/puke2.gif)
.
Posted by JonahMan (# 12126) on
:
I was looking at a stained glass window (Victorian era I think) in a local church which stated So and so "fell asleep" on......
An even less helpful euphemism than some of the others.
Posted by QLib (# 43) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
I always make sure I include the words "died" or "dead" at least once in any funeral service I take (except perhaps in the case of small children or suicides). My aim is being "cruel to be kind" ...
Actually small children worry about burying someone who might not be really dead. My two stood by the open coffin for the whole of my father's (Orthodox) funeral and found it a very positive experience. The elder one said she felt no qualms at all when the time came for the coffin to go in the ground.
And I worry that euphemisms for death in the case of suicide (e.g. gone to a better place) might be unhelpful. Though difficult to know what would be helpful. I might want to feel the hope that somone in such despair has gone to a better place, but I think someone asserting it as if it were a fact, would just make me feel a bit uneasy.
Posted by no prophet (# 15560) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by MrsBeaky:
Originally posted by no prophet:
quote:
I am also sorely tired of people having "heroic battles" with whatever killed them.
As I said further up the thread, is the situation about me or someone else?
It's in every obituary here. So it's about the obits.
Posted by comet (# 10353) on
:
this whole thread keeps making me think of the family euphamism used when a pet dies. came from when we were children and wouldn't be able to cope with an eagle having eaten Fluffy. My father would say that Fluffy has "gone to live with a nice family in Colorado". I now use it for people, too.
useless, I know. but I felt like sharing. ![[Axe murder]](graemlins/lovedrops.gif)
Posted by balaam (# 4543) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by JonahMan:
I was looking at a stained glass window (Victorian era I think) in a local church which stated So and so "fell asleep" on......
An even less helpful euphemism than some of the others.
At least it's a Biblical euphemism. Which doesn't make it helpful, but shows that euphemisms for dead have been around a long time.
Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
I guess it's rather like the 'last words on the deathbed' myth, where everyone is supposed to say something significant, memorable and lasting, to either their loved ones or to the whole of society. Tosh!
No one particularly mentions when someone's last words were "LOOK OUT!" or "SLOW DOWN!" or "Does this pâté taste funny to you?"
Posted by no prophet (# 15560) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
I guess it's rather like the 'last words on the deathbed' myth, where everyone is supposed to say something significant, memorable and lasting, to either their loved ones or to the whole of society. Tosh!
No one particularly mentions when someone's last words were "LOOK OUT!" or "SLOW DOWN!" or "Does this pâté taste funny to you?"
"Don't buy green bananas" is one I recall poignantly. With the part unstated, "because I won't be around when they are ripe". However, more "death rattles" and the frightening look when another breath cannot be taken, but then it comes a last time in a minute, and then even more scarily a couple of minutes after that. Frightened the bejesus of the living and the person we thought was dead.
We have laughed years later at the final, after the last breath, death fart. But I suspect this one of those "I guess you had to be there" to find it at all funny even long after.
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on
:
Was it Oscar Wilde who said, "Either this wallpaper goes or I do"?
Posted by Mamacita (# 3659) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by comet:
this whole thread keeps making me think of the family euphamism used when a pet dies. came from when we were children and wouldn't be able to cope with an eagle having eaten Fluffy. My father would say that Fluffy has "gone to live with a nice family in Colorado". I now use it for people, too.
useless, I know. but I felt like sharing.
Ha! You made me think of the girls who got knocked up in high school, and whose absence from school was explained as "they went to live with their aunt."
Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Was it Oscar Wilde who said, "Either this wallpaper goes or I do"?
Would've been more appropriate for Napoleon, if only he'd realised.
Posted by Mamacita (# 3659) on
:
But seriously ... I have been watching this thread and thinking about what I wanted to say, or more so, how I wanted to say it.
I write as one of the "recently bereaved." My husband died last February. Massive heart attack, over within minutes. I was with him when it happened.
The words died, dead, death did not and do not bother me. What drove me crazy, in that first hour, was the lack of any words from the EMTs and then from the ER staff. Of course, they weren't *allowed* to tell me what was going on when I kept asking "Is my husband dead?" Finally, when I fired the question at the doctor who entered the small ER waiting room (the one they stick you in when things are really bad, so you know things are really bad, even though nobody will tell you that things are really bad), and the doctor looked a bit taken aback by my frankness, and then was kind enough to say "Yes," then I was able to take my first steps into the new reality. Because when the person you have spent 40+ years with is dead, you move, at least for a while, into a state of suspended animation. It is necessary. And, for as awful as it is, it is no less awful than the moments (or hours or months) you have spent trying not to drown in panic and uncertainty. The hard truth releases you, pushes you into what you have to do next.
When I called my (mid-twenties) children and had to do the hardest thing I have had to do as a mother, I did not shy away from the word "died." Of course I didn't lead off with the word, but it was said, because that was real. And it hasn't bothered me if someone refers to Tom as "dead" or "passed away." Honestly, I don't really notice. I've been more focused on the message itself -- condolences or, even better, sharing a sweet or hilarious memory of him.
I didn't use euphemisms with my family, but I have used them with others. This is why: in some cases, I have been the one bearing the news to people I run into at random, people outside our immediate circles who missed out on the initial flurry of phone calls and emails. And I tended to use the words "passed away" because I didn't want to shock them. I've seen people tear up and then try to compose themselves and shift into trying to comfort me, and I simply want to take the shock value out of that encounter. Softening the blow by saying "he passed away" seems kinder in the context of that moment. So I don't begrudge people who use euphemisms wisely, not out of a sense of propriety but as a response to what is the kindest thing to do right now?
I am also aware that the word "dead" can be used as a cudgel, and I have used it aggressively a couple of times. Like with a particularly nasty bill collector (yes, I forgot to pay a bill, bereaved people tend to do that) who simply hung up on me. I don't regret it.
I don't believe for a minute that Zappa was using any form of the "d-word" as a cudgel or in any way being insensitive. I suggest we all cut one another a little slack and trust that we have the emotional intelligence to read the situation and use the right words for the bereaved, for the context, for the moment.
Posted by Yorick (# 12169) on
:
Mamacita, you are a gentlewoman. I wish you peace in your heart.
Posted by Moo (# 107) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Mamacita
I am also aware that the word "dead" can be used as a cudgel, and I have used it aggressively a couple of times. Like with a particularly nasty bill collector (yes, I forgot to pay a bill, bereaved people tend to do that) who simply hung up on me. I don't regret it.
In the weeks after my husband died unexpectedly, I took pleasure in telling telephone solicitors who asked for my husband that he was dead. They always paused. Some stammered an apology; some simply hung up.
Moo
Moo
Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by comet:
My father would say that Fluffy has "gone to live with a nice family in Colorado". I now use it for people, too.
The same happened to me when my guinea pigs were taken by foxes. My dad told me they'd gone to Lourenço Marques (now Maputo) our nearest seaside.
I STILL believe that's what happened I was so very convinced at the time (or I wanted to believe it so convinced myself very thoroughly)
Mamacita
Posted by IngoB (# 8700) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
No one particularly mentions when someone's last words were "LOOK OUT!" or "SLOW DOWN!" or "Does this pâté taste funny to you?"
For Johann Wolfgang von Goethe, probably the most famous German poet, two accounts of his final words exist:
1. He said "Mehr Licht!" ("More light!", to be understood metaphorically), or
2. he said "Mer lischt des Kisse schief." ("My pillow is uncomfortable." in the local dialect.)
They sound exactly the same in the first two words. My bet is on the second, and some creative hagiography leading to the first.
Posted by JoannaP (# 4493) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Mamacita:
I don't believe for a minute that Zappa was using any form of the "d-word" as a cudgel or in any way being insensitive. I suggest we all cut one another a little slack and trust that we have the emotional intelligence to read the situation and use the right words for the bereaved, for the context, for the moment.
Surely this thread has shown that different people grieve differently and that the right words for one person will be different from the right words for another (or even different from the right words for that same person at another time). It therefore seems reasonable to me for Zappa to be annoyed at being told that, when he is giving pastoral care to the bereaved, some words, which may or may not be the right ones for that individual, are off limits. But I rarely react well to being told how to do my job.
Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on
:
A rather prim friend of my late mother told her 5 year-old grandchild that X (the next-door neighbour) had "gone to live with Jesus" - to which the grandchild responded "someone else getting divorced, like mummy and daddy".
Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by QLib:
Actually small children worry about burying someone who might not be really dead.
As represented in one episode of Outnumbered by the gloriously disputative Karen ...
Posted by Drifting Star (# 12799) on
:
I also worry about being buried while not being dead. Which is why I want to be cremated. Just to be certain.
Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on
:
...to get the terror over with really quickly while adding the pain of being burned alive?
Posted by Drifting Star (# 12799) on
:
Pretty much. I figure the pain would be short-lived compared to the drawn out terror of being buried alive.
Posted by Kitten (# 1179) on
:
Its this fear that first prompted me to carry an organ donor card, I figured that if they'd taken out all my bits I wasn't coming back
Posted by Antisocial Alto (# 13810) on
:
For what it's worth, the TV show Mythbusters examined the possibility of being buried alive and found that most coffins collapse under the weight of the earth pretty quickly anyway. So you wouldn't be suffering for days; most likely it would be over in half an hour or so.
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on
:
IIRC, most US burials require a concrete vault surrounding the coffin. Not to worry though, you will not survive the embalming process.
As to cremation, at 870–980 °C, your pain will be short-lived.
Posted by Zacchaeus (# 14454) on
:
An elderly lady I know is so terrified of being buried alive, that she has ordered a mobile phone to be buried with her.
Though what her chances are of getting a signal 6 feet under I don’t know….
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
IIRC, most US burials require a concrete vault surrounding the coffin. Not to worry though, you will not survive the embalming process.
As to cremation, at 870–980 °C, your pain will be short-lived.
Yeah, I thought Mary Roach covered that-- embalming was the way morticians ensured they wouldn't have any walking dead. Basically they replace your blood with poisons of a preservative nature. You ain't getting up again after that.
Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on
:
quote:
lilBuddha: As to cremation, at 870–980 °C, your pain will be short-lived.
Also, somewhere in your final moments you'll have the nice tan you always wanted.
Posted by bib (# 13074) on
:
I hate the phrase 'passed' as I always think it sounds like something the nurse might ask you : "have you passed urine today?" What's wrong with the perfectly good word 'died'.
Some years ago I read one of the funniest death notices I have ever seen which concerned the death of a child : 'Safe in the arms of Jesus; inserted by her loving parents.' ![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
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