quote:

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I'm interested in reading historical novels, but ones that are set in time periods we don't know an awful lot about. So not something from the Tudors or the late Renaissance, but something from the Babylonian era, or the darker parts of the Middle Ages for example.

Preferably not books of the kind "passive woman finds out she needs a man who can give her a sense of security" (I'm looking at the Book Groop right now )

Does anyone have an idea?

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I'd be really interested in this too. I've just finished a spate of historical novels set in the Tudor period, which, while enjoyable, have left me feeling I've had enough of Robert Dudley, Lord Cecil and Elizabeth I to last me for a while.

I quite enjoyed Alison Weir's historical novel "The Captive Queen", about Eleanor of Aquitaine, which was a bit of a change and an era that doesn't get covered that often. Eleanor was a lively, spirited personality who had quite a colourful life - you couldn't make it up - and the book was a good read.

Anyone got any good recommendations, as per Le Roc's outline?
 

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Posted by Lyda*Rose (# 4544) on :
 
One I keep meaning to read, so I can't truly vouch for it is The Tale of Genji, written in eleventh century Japan. It is touted as the first novel published and is still read today. I don't think you can get farther off the beaten path of historical fiction than a historical book written by an insider. Of course, it wasn't actually historical to the author, Lady Murasaki Shikibu.
 

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Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :
 
Thank you, that looks interesting! The book itself is in Public Domain because of its age of course, and there are even some free English translations available I'm downloading an epub version here right now.
 

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Posted by georgiaboy (# 11294) on :
 
There is an historical novel called 'The Eye of God,' in which Richard, Duke of Gloucester (later Richard III) is an important, though not major, character. The leading character is a female apothecary in Canterbury(?) who has an interesting career and love life. It is not lengthy, and I considered it a 'good read.'
Sorry I can't cite the author; I gave the book to a friend!
But with the current news about the remains of R3, it has a certain interest.
 

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Posted by AngloCatholicGirl (# 16435) on :
 
If you're good with detective fiction, then I can recommend the Amelia Peabody series, by Elizabeth Peters. Amelia is a female Egyptologist in the pre-WW1 era, who gets involved in all sorts of crime and intrigue (along with her family). Very well written and nice to have a good strong female lead who is also very real and fallible like the rest of us. Link to Amelia Peabody site

Christian Jacq is a French archeologist who started writing novels set in ancient Egypt, I can recommend The Black Pharoah and his Rameses II series (he manages to work in Moses and the Exodus from the Egyptian viewpoint in those). He usually has good strong female characters too.

Also, P C Doherty, as well as writing historical crime set in Ancient Egypt and Medieval England (set during the reigns of Edwards 1,2 & 3) has written historical novels where he has pieced together available evidence of real mysteries and written them up as a novel. Death of a King and Fate of Princes are good. The Rose Demon is strictly non-crime fiction and is worth checking out too. You can find a bibliography Here

If you want more historical crime fiction, I know loads I can recommend!
 

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Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :
 
Finished downloading The Tale of Genji. It's 1075 pages! I'll see you in a couple of months
 

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Posted by Moo (# 107) on :
 
The Brother Cadfael mysteries by Ellis Peters are set in twelfth century England. They are very well-written, and AFAIK the details of life at the time are accurate.

Moo
 

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Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :
 
There is always "The Girl with the Pearl Earring" by Tracy Chevalier, if anyone still hasn't read this. We don't often get historical novels set in the 17th century Netherlands. It's about a maid who comes to work for the painter Vermeer. I enjoyed this one enough to get the book, and the DVD is a visual treat.
 

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Posted by Niminypiminy (# 15489) on :
 
Some left-field historical novels:

Out of print but available second hand, Children of the Book by Peter Carter is a gripping novel about the siege of Vienna -- told from three perspectives, an inhabitant of Vienna, a Turkish Janissary, and a Polish soldier.

The Corner that Held Them by Sylvia Townsend Warner follows the fortunes of an obscure East Anglian convent through the fourteenth century -- sounds dull, but is actually fascinating, clear-eyed and full of a sense of time and place.

I once read a historical novel about Athanasius -- I so wish I could remember what its title and author were -- it was a cracking read.
 

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Posted by Pine Marten (# 11068) on :
 
I very much enjoyed 'The Roman' and 'The Secret of the Kingdom' by Mika Waltari. These follow the (separate) stories of Minutus Lausus Manilianus, and his father Marcus Manilianus, who happens to be present at the Crucifixion. They are very well-written, a bit gory at times, and an enthralling read.

A very good novel about Richard III (my hero ) is 'The Court of the Midnight King' by Freda Warrington, a dreamy, beguiling fantasy, in a slightly parallel England.
 

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Posted by SusanDoris (# 12618) on :
 
Well, these are true stories, but told, I think, in good story style. (maybe that's historical faction.) I have always enjoyed historical fiction too, of course.

'Wedlock' by Wendy Moore, sub-title: 'How England's worst husband got his come-uppance'. True story of Mary Eleanor, Countess of Strathmore and ancestor of the Queen. A gripping story - you just couldn't make it up! Friends to whom I recommended it found reading it was a bit tricky because of trhying to remember the names, but I listened to the audio book and it was un-put-downable.

'Perdita' by Hilary Scharper The story of Mary , Robinson late 18th century actress and, in some ways, the first 'celebrity'.

Can't remember the exact title, but it's a biography told in story style of John tradascant, Robert Cecil's gardener.

'Arthur and George'by Julian Barnes. Sir Arthur conan Doyle and George Edaljiand how their lives came together.
 

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Posted by Pine Marten (# 11068) on :
 
Just remembered: if you want a good laugh Gyles Brandreth has written a series of novels in which Oscar Wilde and his friend Arthur Conan Doyle solve murder mysteries! Yes, they are as daft as they sound, and meticulously researched. Very enjoyable.

[ 01. June 2013, 17:26: Message edited by: Pine Marten ]
 

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Posted by Hart (# 4991) on :
 
Kristen Lavransdatter by Sigrid Undsett is one of my favorite novels (actually, a trilogy, but the books are normally sold bound together now). It's the biography of a 14th Century Norwegian woman who is anything but passive! The way the characters in the book pray is worth the read alone, plus it's a pretty ripping yarn.
 

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Posted by St. Gwladys (# 14504) on :
 
The Sister Fidelma books by Peter Tremayne are good - she's an Irish religeuse in a Celtic monastry, and also a brehon of the Irish law system.
Phil Rickman has written some medieval stories involving Dr Dee. I've read The Bones of Avalon. (He's probably better known for his Merrily Watkins series - she's the diocesan exorcist for the Hereford Diocese - great fun to read if you know Herefordshire and the Borders at all)
 

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Posted by nickel (# 8363) on :
 
Simon Levack has a mystery series featuring Yaotl, who is an Aztec slave and failed priest, set in early 1500’s Mexico just prior to the coming of the Conquistadors. All four books are good, but I'd recommend starting with the second in the series, "Shadow of the Lords," then going back to book #1 for more of Yaotl's backstory. Fascinating non-WASP culture ... butterflies,"useless days."
 

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Posted by Eigon (# 4917) on :
 
Ellis Peters, who wrote Cadfael, was also Edith Pargeter, who wrote the Heaven Tree trilogy (which is excellent) and the Brothers of Gwynnedd books (3 or 4 of them, about the last independent Princes of Wales before Edward I took over).
Welsh history isn't that well represented in historical fiction, but the period of Llewelyn the Great and his grandson Llewelyn the Last has also been covered by the excellent Sharon Kay Penman, in Here Be Dragons, Falls the Shadow (which also includes Simon de Montfort) and The Reckoning. Have plenty of hankies ready for the end of The Reckoning!!!
 

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Posted by Edith (# 16978) on :
 
The Stephen Sayler Gordianus stories set in ancient Rome are excellent. Good history, good detection and precise writing.
 

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Posted by Edith (# 16978) on :
 
I've just finished The Potter's Hand by AN Wilson, about Josiah Wedgwood and the Enlightenment. Wonderful writing and some fascinating reflections on the part played in 18 C England by religion in the shape of Methodism, Unitarianism and the established church.
 

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Posted by Dafyd (# 5549) on :
 
I assume nobody's mentioned Wolf Hall because it's too obvious?
 

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Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :
 
Some good suggestions here! I have to say that detective/mystery isn't exactly my favourite genre, but I guess it might be a good excuse to look into a definite time period as well.
 

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Posted by Trudy Scrumptious (# 5647) on :
 
Great question! I love reading historical fiction, especially seeking out unfamiliar times, places, and perspectives, and I love getting other people's perspectives.

I recommend Pauline Gedge on ancient Egypt ... she has a couple of series, if you're looking to explore that direction.

Annabelle Lyon's The Golden Mean and The Sweet Girl are about Aristotle and the people around him.

David Liss has an interesting series of eighteenth-century England mystery novels with an intriguing hero, staring with A Conspiracy of Paper.

Margaret George and Sharon Kay Penman are my two favourite authors of historical fiction, the only caveats being that they do tend to stick to the relatively well-known characters and periods, and in the case of both writers, I like their earlier novels better than their later. George's The Autobiography of Henry VIII and Penman's The Sunne in Splendour (Richard III) are two of the best novels I've ever read and they definitely kick-started my early interest in reading historical fiction.

Katherine Govier's The Ghost Brush is a fascinating novel set in nineteenth-century Japan. Leslie Downer's The Last Concubine is also set in that place and period.

Lawrence Hill's The Book of Negroes (sold under the title Somebody Knows my Name in the US, I think) is a wonderful exploration of the experience of an African slave captured and taken to the United States.

I could go on and on ... I got most of those recommendations from selecting the "historical fiction" tag on my own book review blog, which you could also have a glance through to see if anything else there interests you...

Also I've been looking for some good historical fiction set in ancient Rome for quite awhile (I read Colleen McCullough's Masters of Rome series; loved the subject matter; wasn't thrilled with her writing style). What I'd really like is a novel about Marc Antony, especially one that focused on his marriage to Fulvia, but I've never found any such novel. Anyone know of anything interesting in that era to recommend?
 

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Posted by Keren-Happuch (# 9818) on :
 
Jean Plaidy has covered pretty much every era and not just UK history either. Her Ferdinand & Isabella series is very good and I think she covered some other European dynasties too.

I read Elizabeth Chadwick's books, set around the Norman Conquest, as a teenager but can't remember much about them now.

Michael Jecks is another historical crime author, set in the reign of Richard II if memory serves.
 

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Posted by Moo (# 107) on :
 
If you do decide to read Brother Cadfael, I would advise you to take them in the order in which they were written.

The first is A Morbid Taste for Bones. It has a very original plot.

Moo
 

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Posted by Gussie (# 12271) on :
 
I've just downloaded 'The Corner that Held Them' to my Kindle as it sounds like my sort of book. Thanks for the suggestion Niminypiminy.
At present I'm reading Merivel by Rose Tremain. As it's set in at the time of Charles II it might be a time in history that's a bit familiar, but it's a good read all the same, as is Restoration the first book about Merivel.

Edited as it's late and I've drunk too much wine to spell properly.

[ 01. June 2013, 21:42: Message edited by: Gussie ]
 

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Posted by Sir Kevin (# 3492) on :
 

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Originally posted by LeRoc:
Thank you, that looks interesting! The book itself is in Public Domain because of its age of course, and there are even some free English translations available I'm downloading an epub version here right now.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Ariel:
There is always "The Girl with the Pearl Earring" by Tracy Chevalier, if anyone still hasn't read this. We don't often get historical novels set in the 17th century Netherlands. It's about a maid who comes to work for the painter Vermeer. I enjoyed this one enough to get the book, and the DVD is a visual treat.

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I enjoyed that novel too. I can also recommend David's Liss's novel 'The Coffee Trader', which is about the Jewish commodity traders of 17th c. Amsterdam. Another novel set in the same time and place is Deborah Moggach's 'Tulip Fever'. I own a copy, but haven't read it yet.

My preferred era for historical fiction is the 18th c. It doesn't seem to be a hugely popular period for British novelists, though, unless you're talking about naval novels set at the end of the century. Many prolific novelists will write one or two novels set in this period, but spend most of their time exploring earlier or later centuries.
 

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Posted by Horseman Bree (# 5290) on :
 
A plug here for Mary Renault. Her Alexander Trilogy, and sequel about the scramble after his death are the obvious choices, but there are quite a few others.
 

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Posted by piglet (# 11803) on :
 
As a huge fan of historical fiction, I can't resist putting in my tuppence-worth.

I'll add my voice to the cheers for Brother Cadfael but less so for Sister Fidelma; I didn't find the writing style nearly so good.

It seems that Brother Cadfael inspired several imitations: Brother Athelstan by Paul Harding (set in London in the 1370s) is lighthearted with larger-than-life characters; Matthew Bartholomew by Susannah Gregory (set in Cambridge in the 1340s) is a doctor and teacher of medicine at the University, more serious in style than Brother Athelstan, but good reads as well.

If twelfth-century sleuthing is your thing, try the Mistress of the Art of Death books by Ariana Franklin, the heroine being a lady pathologist. Sadly, there won't be any more of them, as the author died in 2011.

Elizabeth Chadwick's books were very readable, in a rather lightweight, romantic way. If you fancy the period just before the Tudors, Anne Easter Smith's novels set in the time of the Wars of the Roses are quite a good read.

[heresy alert]
As I said over on the Book thread, I gave up on Wolf Hall; I didn't like Hilary Mantel's writing style at all.
[/heresy alert OFF]
 

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Posted by Egeria (# 4517) on :
 
Pauline Gedge's novels are full of historical errors; one of my students amused herself by compiling two pages of them. Single-spaced. Gedge's love of melodrama and "glamour" often gets the better of her, so that we see historical figures being bumped off when the odds are that they died in their beds, Egyptian women painting themselves yellow all over, Ramesses II sitting at a desk (the Egyptians didn't use them), and the palace being furnished with marble water steps (there's very little marble in Egypt)!

But Gedge is the epitome of taste and accuracy compared to the egregious P.C. Doherty. He's written mysteries set in Egypt--the food is wrong, the trees are wrong, the names are wrong because he didn't take the time to find Egyptian names for many of his characters, just made them up. His detective character is called Amerotke; I assume that sounded Egyptian enough to this loathsome hack when he thought it up, perhaps in the shower. What's even worse is that he uses real characters and he gets them wrong too. Nobody has referred to Egypt's greatest Queen as "Hatasu" for a century; he calls her "Hatusu!" Incidentally, Doherty, using several pen names, churns his stuff out at an amazingly fast clip. What's wrong with publishers these days?

A writer using the pseudonym Lauren Haney has also written a series set in Egypt and Nubia; her main character is an Egyptian MP stationed in Nubia. A good idea, but her plotting is weak and her prose doesn't grip. Also, her research is way way out of date--her characters fret that no Egyptian army has been seen in Nubia in twenty years. Since the action takes place during the joint reign of Hatshepsut and Thutmose III, that's a really elementary error; both co-regents saw action there. And she bought into the now discredited notion of the "Thutmosid feud," with a character wondering why Hatshepsut doesn't do away with her nephew. Umm, what about the future of the dynasty? One suspects that Haney was strongly influenced by the crap-o-rama fiction of Eloise Jarvis McGraw.

So, if you want to read about ancient Egypt, my suggestion is: stick to non-fiction by reputable authors!
 

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Posted by Evangeline (# 7002) on :
 
I highly recommend Mistress to the Crown, a really well-researched and accurate story based on the scant facts we know of "mistress Shore" an amazing woman who was Edward IV's mistress. How she manages to divorce her husband for impotency, survive despite the "moral majority", the queen's powerful family and the turbulence after the King's sudden death is fascinating. It's a shame that the novel is "lumped" in with historical romance because it so isn't your bodice ripping, mushy fantasy.

Link on Amazon

Admission I do know the author but I wouldn't recommend her book if I didn't think it was great.
 

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Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :
 

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Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
My preferred era for historical fiction is the 18th c. It doesn't seem to be a hugely popular period for British novelists, though, unless you're talking about naval novels set at the end of the century. Many prolific novelists will write one or two novels set in this period, but spend most of their time exploring earlier or later centuries.

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quote:

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Anya Seton, who also wrote some great novels, is also difficult to get now, but "Katherine", set in Chaucer's day about the woman who had a long on and off affair with John of Gaunt, is a really good read.

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Originally posted by Moo:
The Brother Cadfael mysteries by Ellis Peters are set in twelfth century England. They are very well-written, and AFAIK the details of life at the time are accurate.

Moo

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quote:

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Originally posted by Egeria:
Pauline Gedge's novels are full of historical errors; one of my students amused herself by compiling two pages of them. Single-spaced. Gedge's love of melodrama and "glamour" often gets the better of her, so that we see historical figures being bumped off when the odds are that they died in their beds, Egyptian women painting themselves yellow all over, Ramesses II sitting at a desk (the Egyptians didn't use them), and the palace being furnished with marble water steps (there's very little marble in Egypt)!

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quote:

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Originally posted by Gussie:
At present I'm reading Merivel by Rose Tremain. As it's set in at the time of Charles II it might be a time in history that's a bit familiar, but it's a good read all the same, as is Restoration the first book about Merivel.

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Originally posted by Pine Marten:
I've read a couple of Sister Fidelma stories and didn't mind them, although the small print of the paperbacks didn't help.

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Originally posted by Egeria:
... Gedge is the epitome of taste and accuracy compared to the egregious P.C. Doherty ...

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He's the same bloke as the Paul Harding/Paul Doherty of the Brother Athelstan books. He's also written several books featuring another medieval sleuth called Hugh Corbett; I read one of them, but couldn't really get into it (I can't remember now which century he came from or what his function was).

I don't know enough about the time of the Brother Athelstan books (early in the reign of Richard II) to make educated gripes about the accuracy, so I just enjoyed them for their entertainment value.

Slight tangent re historical inaccuracy: Trudy mentioned Ken Follett, and we're getting a TV dramatisation of World without End at the moment. In the first episode they had Edward II being buried in the wrong cathedral; there's really no excuse for making mistakes like that. Anyone who watched the abomination that was The Tudors will know what I mean.

Sorry. Rant over, and fluffiness restored.
 

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Posted by St. Stephen the Stoned (# 9841) on :
 

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Originally posted by piglet:
...the abomination that was The Tudors ...

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• cows with plastic ear tags
• concrete bollards by the roadside
• modern handrails in the Tower of London
• opening times and admission prices clearly visible during Anne Boleyn's execution.

(I made the last one up, but you get the idea.)
 

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Posted by Lord Jestocost (# 12909) on :
 
Jan Guillou's Knight Templar trilogy trilogy - "The Road to Jerusalem", "The Knight Templar", "The Kingdom at the End of the Road". Guillou created a fictitious character, Arn, who has become a modern-day Swedish folk hero, and by a bit of handwaving becomes the grandfather of the very real Swedish folk hero Birger Jarl. He falls in love and for various reasons has to go off on the crusades for a decade or two. His one true love back in Sweden is exiled to a convent. Their stories are told in parallel, and as well as very well told romance, church politics, intrigue, battles etc we get the events that led to the creation of what is recognisably the modern kingdom of Sweden, out of the various tribes that just happened to be living in that area.

[ 03. June 2013, 08:34: Message edited by: Lord Jestocost ]
 

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Posted by Cottontail (# 12234) on :
 
An oldie but goodie: if you like your historical novels to be Romantic with a capital R, then D.K. Broster's The Flight of the Heron (1925) is hard to beat. It's set during the Jacobite Rebellion, and tells the story of a friendship between two noble-hearted men on opposite sides of the conflict. It also goes down as one of the most homoerotic books of all time.

(There are a couple of sequels too, but in my opinion, not worth the bother.)

At the other end of the romance spectrum (i.e., realistic to the point of stomach-churning horror), you could try Lewis Grassic Gibbon's Spartacus (1933). It is earlier than the version that the film is based on, but is thoroughly well-written by an author who knew his antiquities. But be warned: it is the most distressing and bloody book, and you will never again be able to talk about the Roman 'civilisation'.

[ 03. June 2013, 08:35: Message edited by: Cottontail ]
 

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Posted by kingsfold (# 1726) on :
 
I've enjoyed a fair number of novels by Elizabeth Chadwick . They've been mostly medieval, set around the time of Henry II.
 

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Posted by Pine Marten (# 11068) on :
 

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Originally posted by piglet:

Slight tangent re historical inaccuracy: Trudy mentioned Ken Follett, and we're getting a TV dramatisation of World without End at the moment. In the first episode they had Edward II being buried in the wrong cathedral; there's really no excuse for making mistakes like that. Anyone who watched the abomination that was The Tudors will know what I mean.

Sorry. Rant over, and fluffiness restored.

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I can't let this go without comment: not only was Edward buried in the wrong cathedral, Roger Mortimer was flung from a balcony, if memory serves... and I was going to list other glaring inaccuracies but my brain has wiped them all out in a fit of horror. Oh yes, my favourite nitpicking bleurch which I'm always banging on about these days: long dangly earrings! Medieval ladies (yes, I'm looking at you too, the cast of The White Queen trailer), please do not wear them !
 

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Posted by Hawk (# 14289) on :
 

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Originally posted by Edith:
The other very readable author is Edward Rutherford who takes a great city, for example New York or London, and follows the history of that city from its foundation to the present day.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Pine Marten:
Just remembered: if you want a good laugh Gyles Brandreth has written a series of novels in which Oscar Wilde and his friend Arthur Conan Doyle solve murder mysteries! Yes, they are as daft as they sound, and meticulously researched. Very enjoyable.

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quote:

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Palimpsest: And when you're done with The Tale of Gengi

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Well, I think I can read it a bit faster than I said before I'm looking up reviews on the net of various books that are suggested on this thread.

quote:

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Pine Marten: In the first episode they had Edward II being buried in the wrong cathedral;

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I'm sure that his corpse won't mind
 

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Posted by Jane R (# 331) on :
 

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May I point out that Rosemary Sutcliffe has quite a bit of pre-Roman stuff!

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You're absolutely right... how could I have forgotten Sun Horse, Moon Horse !

I forgot to mention Michael Pearce's series of books about the Mamur Zapt (mystery/thrillers set in Edwardian Egypt, depicts tensions between the Egyptians and the British). I started reading them because I couldn't resist a book with the title The Camel of Destruction ; I have sometimes been disappointed by books that do not live up to their titles, but this wasn't one of them.

[ 04. June 2013, 07:43: Message edited by: Jane R ]
 

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Posted by Sir Kevin (# 3492) on :
 
Can Three Men in a Boat be considered an historic novel? My copy is well over a hundred years old! I lead a discussion about it in the Ship's book group a few years ago and think that it's one of the funniest books ever written.
 

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Posted by Firenze (# 619) on :
 

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Originally posted by Sir Kevin:
Can Three Men in a Boat be considered an historic novel? My copy is well over a hundred years old!

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An oldie but goodie: if you like your historical novels to be Romantic with a capital R, then D.K. Broster's The Flight of the Heron (1925) is hard to beat. It's set during the Jacobite Rebellion, and tells the story of a friendship between two noble-hearted men on opposite sides of the conflict. It also goes down as one of the most homoerotic books of all time. [Big Grin]

(There are a couple of sequels too, but in my opinion, not worth the bother.)

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Originally posted by St. Gwladys:
Rosemary Sutcliffe has already been mentioned. I remember watching a dramatisation of "Eagle of the Ninth" as a unday afternoon serial many years ago. I was extremely pleased to pick up the trilogy in one hardback in a library sale, and found it very readable!

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I agree; "The Eagle of the Ninth" is one of my favourite books and has been since I read it as a child. I didn't much like the television series but I thought the film "The Eagle" which is based on the book was good. Also agree about "The Flight of the Heron" - I did quite enjoy the sequels but they're not a patch on the first book. (Sensing a homoerotic theme here. )

"Wolf Hall" is languishing near the bottom of the list on my Kindle... I just couldn't get on with it and life's too short.

I've just purchased, from one of our charity shops, a copy of Alison Weir's "The Six Wives of Henry VIII" which I'm looking forward to reading.

Nen - loves having a book to look forward to.
 

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Posted by Twilight (# 2832) on :
 

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Originally posted by Edith:
I've just remembered a wonderful writer called Norah Lofts. All her novels are very well written and researched, the House at...series in particular, is excellent. It follows the story of a house in Suffolk over the centuries beginning in Saxon times and ending in the early 20C. Some of the characters are loosely linked down the ages.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Twilight:

quote:

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Originally posted by Edith:
I've just remembered a wonderful writer called Norah Lofts. All her novels are very well written and researched, the House at...series in particular, is excellent. It follows the story of a house in Suffolk over the centuries beginning in Saxon times and ending in the early 20C. Some of the characters are loosely linked down the ages.

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I'll second Norah Lofts. I think she's one of the best novelists of any stripe, ever. I imagine she's out of print now, with a few bios and "How Far to Bethlehem," probably being the exceptions. If you know any old ladies like me it's worth sneaking into our attics to look for them.

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Originally posted by Firenze:

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Originally posted by Sir Kevin:
Can Three Men in a Boat be considered an historic novel? My copy is well over a hundred years old!

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Historic*? Debatable. Historical**? No. It is a book that was contemporary when it was written.

What we are discussing is books about periods other than the one they were written in.

*= makes history
**= about history

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quote:

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Originally posted by SusanDoris:

Can't remember the exact title, but it's a biography told in story style of John tradascant, Robert Cecil's gardener.

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quote:

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Le Roc's post on the Reading thread:

Preferably not books of the kind "passive woman finds out she needs a man who can give her a sense of security."

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Almost as bad are the "She was as spirited as she was beautiful, pity the bold rake who tried to tame her."

Two that come to mind featuring strong, smart women without anachronistic girl-power stuff:


Year of Wonders: A Novel of the Plague
Geraldine Brooks

The Heretic's Daughter(regarding the Salem witch trials)
Kathleen Kent
 

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Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :
 

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Twilight: Almost as bad are the "She was as spirited as she was beautiful, pity the bold rake who tried to tame her."

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Indeed! Give me books that have a female protagonist and portray her as a normal human being any time! I think I already spotted some on this thread. (So much to choose from )
 

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Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :
 

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Originally posted by Jane R:
Personally I can't stand Patrick O'Brien's style and prefer C S Forester's Hornblower series, which may be less politically correct (having been written about fifty years or so earlier) but reads less like an academic lecture on Some Aspects of the British Navy During The Early Nineteenth Century. Patrick O'Brien tells you the names of all the ropes in the rigging; C S Forester mentions them in passing while Hornblower is hanging upside-down trying to reef the sails in the middle of a storm.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Twilight:

quote:

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Le Roc's post on the Reading thread:

Preferably not books of the kind "passive woman finds out she needs a man who can give her a sense of security."

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Almost as bad are the "She was as spirited as she was beautiful, pity the bold rake who tried to tame her."

Two that come to mind featuring strong, smart women without anachronistic girl-power stuff:


Year of Wonders: A Novel of the Plague
Geraldine Brooks

The Heretic's Daughter(regarding the Salem witch trials)
Kathleen Kent

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Originally posted by Nenya:

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Originally posted by St. Gwladys:
Rosemary Sutcliffe has already been mentioned. I remember watching a dramatisation of "Eagle of the Ninth" as a unday afternoon serial many years ago. I was extremely pleased to pick up the trilogy in one hardback in a library sale, and found it very readable!

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I agree; "The Eagle of the Ninth" is one of my favourite books and has been since I read it as a child.

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Originally posted by Jane R:

If reading any modern authors do bear in mind what Egeria said; a lot of them don't bother to do much research and those that do may ignore historical reality in order to produce a commercially viable story, so what you are actually reading is a story about modern characters in fancy dress.

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Originally posted by Jane R:
Patrick O'Brien tells you the names of all the ropes in the rigging; C S Forester mentions them in passing while Hornblower is hanging upside-down trying to reef the sails in the middle of a storm.

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Originally posted by ken:

<snip> not that there is anything wrong with Norah Lofts - she's deeply unfashionable just now, and in some ways very dated,

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Originally posted by L'organist:
Of course, you don't have to stick to the UK/Europe.

Try Gore Vidal: Washington DC, Burr, 1876, Lincoln and Empire are all good reads and fairly accurate in setting.

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Gore Vidal goes a little too far to fiction rather than history, and enjoys having his characters poke fun at the recorded history of the period. It's highly entertaining though. His novel 'Creation' was amazing. Following the grandson of Zoroaster as he travels the known world meeting Socrates, the Buddha, Mahavira, Lao Tsu, and Confucius. It's a crash course in Vidal's ideas about comparative religion. Reminds me of Robert Graves.
 

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Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :
 
May have missed any mention by others, and it does relate to the Tudor period, but we've enjoyed the Matthew Shardlake series written by C J Sansom (first book "Dissolution" features a murder in a monastery). Tudor whodunnits, with lots of vivid historical detail, and an unusual and very sympathetic central character. (Matthew Shardlake is a hunchbacked lawyer).
 

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Posted by Caissa (# 16710) on :
 
I don't think anyone has mention Bernard Cornwell yet. I like his Saxon novels.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernard_Cornwell
 

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Posted by Pine Marten (# 11068) on :
 
Yes, I mentioned his 'Sharpe' series upthread .
 

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Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :
 

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Originally posted by Gussie:
Two writers of children's historical novels whose work I loved as a child were Geoffrey Trease and Cynthia Harnett. Trease's books covered a wide spread of history ...

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Originally posted by Albertus:

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Originally posted by Gussie:
Two writers of children's historical novels whose work I loved as a child were Geoffrey Trease and Cynthia Harnett. Trease's books covered a wide spread of history ...

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Yes, Gooffrey Trease was good. Also his near namesake Henry Treece, who wrote a cracking trilogy about a Viking, following him from boyhood to old(ish) age.

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Originally posted by Albertus:

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Originally posted by Gussie:
Two writers of children's historical novels whose work I loved as a child were Geoffrey Trease and Cynthia Harnett. Trease's books covered a wide spread of history ...

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Yes, Gooffrey Trease was good. Also his near namesake Henry Treece, who wrote a cracking trilogy about a Viking, following him from boyhood to old(ish) age.

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Originally posted by georgiaboy:
In the US writing about slaves is HARD! It's booby-trapped throughout with still-existing attitudes and prejudices. And you can't have a story set in the South in the 1860s without the slaves -- you'd be missing out many important characters.
But if you get the conversation and attitudes right, you're bound to offend readers all across the spectrum.

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Originally posted by Ariel:


Anya Seton, who also wrote some great novels, is also difficult to get now, but "Katherine", set in Chaucer's day about the woman who had a long on and off affair with John of Gaunt, is a really good read.

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Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Phillipa Gregory is a middlebrow, bestselling author, but I think it's great that someone with her profile deems it worthwhile to write about the slave trade, and I'm impressed that in her novel A Respectable Trade she brings this history to the streets of 18th c. England rather than sticking to the more commonplace African/Caribbean/American settings. It's not a perfect novel, but it's well worth reading if you want to go beyond cruelty on cotton or sugar plantations.

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Originally posted by Egeria:
I have to respond to the derogatory comments about Patrick O'Brian's novels. The characters are "too nice"! What about Captain Harte, "that red-faced son of a blue French fart"? Slimy Mr. Canning? And the dreadful, dreadful Mrs. Williams, the mother-in-law from Hell?

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When I'm reading Forrester, I'm always aware that I'm reading a reasonably good historical novel; when I'm reading O'Brian, I'm taking a trip to the early nineteenth century and some fascinating places, and I'm doing it in the company of interesting, complex people.

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Originally posted by Niminypiminy:

I once read a historical novel about Athanasius -- I so wish I could remember what its title and author were -- it was a cracking read.

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I don't get the comment about "political correctness" (which is a pretty meaningless expression usually employed by people who feel it is their "right" to be narrow-minded, uncharitable, and rude);

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Or take another example: Tess of the D'Urbervilles. Modern readers are usually so appalled by the double standard that allows Angel, but not Tess, to be forgiven for a premarital affair that Hardy's portrayal of her as a 'good woman' who is forced into going back to Alec is unquestioned. Some contemporary critics disagreed; Elizabeth Gaskell, for example (who wrote a book about an unwed mother, so was no stranger to moral ambiguity) points out that Tess was a skilled dairymaid in the middle of an agricultural boom. Finding a job where nobody knew she'd been disgraced might have been difficult, of course; but if she really didn't want to live with Alec she didn't have to.

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Originally posted by QLib:

Toni Morrison's Beloved is a fantastic book....

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Originally posted by Penny S:
I found and read books by Naomi Mitchison in my teens...

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Originally posted by Jane R:

The past wasn't monolithic either; "The British" were not all "enthusiastically engaged in the slave trade" as Svitlana puts it. Some of them were, certainly; some were equally vehemently opposed to it and eventually succeeded in having it banned. Some were victims; during the seventeenth century large numbers of white British people were transported to the West Indies, for example after Monmouth's rebellion and the Bloody Assizes.. So it would be plausible to have one or two characters who are abolitionists, maybe several people who are involved in the slave trade or have relatives who are, quite a lot of people who haven't really thought about it one way or another and perhaps someone who changes his or her mind during the course of the story.

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Originally posted by Timothy the Obscure:
The other great historical novelist writing of the medieval era (and I really do mean great--I don't understand why she isn't on the shortlist for the next Nobel, except that historical fiction is out of fashion) is Cecelia Holland.

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Originally posted by Ariel:

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Originally posted by Timothy the Obscure:
The other great historical novelist writing of the medieval era (and I really do mean great--I don't understand why she isn't on the shortlist for the next Nobel, except that historical fiction is out of fashion) is Cecelia Holland.

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I'll have to look out for these. The only book of hers I've read is "Floating Worlds" which is an odd sort of sci-fi novel. I wasn't sure if I'd enjoyed it.

There are some great recommendations on this thread, many thanks to those who took the time to post suggestions.

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When Holland gets out of the historical fiction area she's less satisfying. Her most recent books are historical, but with a fantasy element that I don't care for so much, even though I like fantasy.
 

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Posted by Percy B (# 17238) on :
 
Tim the Obscure - could you recommend where to start with Cecilia Holland - which novel you like the most? I'm interested in reading one of hers.
 

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Posted by Timothy the Obscure (# 292) on :
 
My personal favorite is The Kings in Winter, which is set in Ireland around the time of the Battle of Clontarf in 1014. Great Maria (11th century Norman Sicily) is another good one to start on.
 

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Posted by QLib (# 43) on :
 
I've just finished reading my first Norah Lofts' novel, The House at Old Vine and am grateful to shipmates for their recommendations. Although the book is the second in a trilogy, that didn't matter, because the main connecting link is the house, though I gather there are other threads as well. Actually, one of the best things is the way she interweaves the series of stories, so Character Two's tale often fills in details about Character One, and so on, in a kind of chain. Apart from the interest of the stories themselves, and the quality of the historical research (which seems pretty spot-on to me, though I admit my expertise stops with A level History and a bit of wider reading) this manner of telling stories encourages one to reflect on the brevity and vanity of human existence. A lot of historical novels centred on ficitonal characters often have a happy ending – I'm not averse to a happy ending, but they're often a bit unrealistic. She's certainly avoided that and yet the effect isn't grim. Now my only dilemma is whether to go back to Book One, or on to Book Three, but I expect the town library will make that decision for me.
 

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Posted by PaulBC (# 13712) on :
 
Napoleonic sweeps CS Forester Hornblower, Dudley Pope Ramage series, Bernard Cromwell Sharpe
Medivel the Brother Cadfael series Ellis Peters
Roman Rosemary Sutcliffe Eagle of the Nineth
all of the above I have read and enjoyed.
 

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Posted by Twilight (# 2832) on :
 
QLib, I'm thrilled that you've discovered Norah Lofts! I hope you can find both books one and three of that series and then go on to many more of her books. You'll find that her continuity of characters runs sideways from novel to novel as well as backwards and forwards. Characters mentioned in "Jassy" will show up as party guests in another novel or a horrible incident you read about in one novel will explain why that part of the woods seems to have a bad vibe around it in some otherwise unrelated novel. Another thing that makes them seem real and connected to me is that she seems to set most of them in the same area around Bury St Edmunds with the various towns on the fingertips and in the crooks of a huge forest shaped like a hand. As I said. Thrilled.
 

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Posted by Pine Marten (# 11068) on :
 
That's a really nice idea, Twilight, that characters or incidents turn up or are mentioned in different novels - I like that kind of continuity, a sort of elongated sideways story arc.

After reading QLib's post I had a look on Amazon to see the descriptions of the trilogy, and read sample pages, and they do look very good. I might keep them in mind for future reading... I've got a shelf or two of books lined up and waiting to be read first though .
 

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Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :
 

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Originally posted by Edith:
I've just finished The Potter's Hand by AN Wilson, about Josiah Wedgwood and the Enlightenment. Wonderful writing and some fascinating reflections on the part played in 18 C England by religion in the shape of Methodism, Unitarianism and the established church.

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Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:

Richard Francis, 'Ann the World: The Story of Ann Lee, Female Messiah, Mother of the Shakers, Clothed with the Sun' (This isn't a novel, but the reviews make it sound gripping. Ann Lee founded the Shakers in Manchester.)
.

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Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Percy B

I'd love to read more fiction about historical Nonconformist church life. Unfortunately, the average British reader prefers to read about medieval Catholic monks or comedy Anglican vicars. IMO other denominations smell too much of religious 'enthusiasm', and that makes most British people rather nervous.

These titles are on my To Read list, and if anyone can recommend them I'd be grateful:

Arnold Bennett, 'The Old Wives' Tale'' (Partly about late 19th c. Wesleyan Methodism in the Potteries.)

Luther Blissett, 'Q' (About the religious ferment on the Continent during the Reformation.)

Arthur Quiller-Couch, 'Hetty Wesley' (About one of John Wesley's sisters. Written in the early 20th c.)

Deborah Swift, 'The Lady's Slipper' (17th c. Quakers)

Helen Pike, 'The Harlot's Press' (Radical politics and religion, debauchery, early 19th c.)

Richard Francis, 'Ann the World: The Story of Ann Lee, Female Messiah, Mother of the Shakers, Clothed with the Sun' (This isn't a novel, but the reviews make it sound gripping. Ann Lee founded the Shakers in Manchester.)

I have read Cedric Barber, 'Slaves, Sinners and Saints: A True Story of the Barber Family over Three Centuries'. It's family history rather than fiction, but it reads very well. The historical aspect deals partly with the Primitive Methodists, again in the Potteries. Mr Barber is a descendant of Francis Barber, the Jamaican manservant of Dr Samuel Johnson.

I'll wager that Barber and Johnson both appear in 'The Potter's Hand', and that Joseph Priestley, the 18th c.'s most famous Unitarian, also does a turn. Priestley deserves a novel to himself, but he doesn't have one as far as I can tell.

The Americans have written a couple of novels about John Wesley.

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Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
I just remembered that Poisonwood Bible is historical, deals with American missionaries to Africa in I suspect the 1950s, and has strong women characters.

Jengie

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That book haunted me for months after I'd read it and not in a good way. I still feel nauseous when I think about baby birds, snakes and small girls in that context.

I've just read "The Last Wife of Henry VIII" by Carolly Erickson, which I enjoyed.

Nen - delicate disposition.
 

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Posted by Sighthound (# 15185) on :
 
I recommend pretty much anything by Elizabeth Chadwick and Sharon K Penman.

Robert Graves is the all-time great of the genre, but somewhat neglected now.

Less well known, Susan Higginbotham, Anne Easter Smith (though her books are very 'feminine' for want of a better word.)

Bernard Cornwell writes some good stuff, but he is the antithesis of Easter Smith, his female characters are sketchy at best. Dorothy Dunnett is rewarding but generally needs a couple of reads as she is quite a demanding author. I also like C J Sansom's Shardlake novels, even if they are set in Tudor times, which I dislike. If you can find it, as it is scarce, The Heron's Catch by Susan Curran is well worth a read (15th Century).

I could go on, but perhaps that's enough for now.

[ 18. July 2013, 16:12: Message edited by: Sighthound ]
 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
The key aspect of a good historical novel is that it doesn't simply 'ventriloquise' or represent the narrative history in fictionalised form. This can be difficult to pull off.

J G Farrell managed it in 'The Siege of Krishnapur' (fictionalised siege during the Indian Mutiny) and 'Troubles' (about the Irish Troubles of the early '20s).

He arguably failed to do so convincingly with 'The Singapore Grip' about the fall of Singapore in WW2. The historical facts and narrative are too close to the surface in that one.

I agree with SvitlanaV2 that Priestley deserves a novel, but it would be hard to see how it could work without ending up as, 'So what are you working on now, Dr Priestley? Have you discovered oxygen yet?'
 

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Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :
 

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Originally posted by Gamaliel:


I agree with SvitlanaV2 that Priestley deserves a novel, but it would be hard to see how it could work without ending up as, 'So what are you working on now, Dr Priestley? Have you discovered oxygen yet?'

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