Thread: Hymns and songs that are no longer sung Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.
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Posted by vw man (# 13951) on
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In the 80s the Church I attended sang
Worthy o worthy are you Lord
I loved this song,but it is long gone the you tube version for me is very poor.
what songs do you miss or not miss
Posted by Og, King of Bashan (# 9562) on
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A year or so ago, we had a thread about the hymn tune which was named for the place closest to you. One hymn that didn't make the cut for the Episcopal Hymnal 1982 was to the tune "Dexter Street," named for a street six blocks from my house. I have likely pinpointed the exact block it was named for, near the neighborhood Episcopal church, just down the street from the Italian market and public library branch. It isn't a particularly stirring or easy tune, but I still wish it was in the hymnal, for personal reasons.
Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on
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The so-called 'modern' hymns that I sang at school in the 70s no longer seem to exist in my little corner of the world. Whatever happened to Kumbaya? Do schools still sing hymns about children of the world uniting?
My centenarian granny sits at home singing lots of an old Pentecostal hymns, including one that goes:
I never went to college
To learn Bible knowledge;
I got my education at the cross!
Pentecostal pastors are going to Bible college now, though, so I don't suppose they encourage the public singing of this kind of song any more!
Posted by PaulBC (# 13712) on
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Try any of the church militant hymns, "Onward Christian Soldiers" or Hymns that seem , out here in the former colonies "imperialist"
"Jerusalem" springs to mind
Then the ACC"s new hymnal have taken man/men and replaced it with gender neutral language . Is there no end to this PC silliness >? ![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif)
![[brick wall]](graemlins/brick_wall.gif)
![[Angel]](graemlins/angel.gif)
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Posted by piglet (# 11803) on
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The hymn I miss the most is Thine be the glory to the tune Maccabaeus, not because it's no longer sung, but because it hadn't been written when the hymn-book we use, Common Praise, was published (1938), so it isn't sung here. ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
Posted by The Kat in the Hat (# 2557) on
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quote:
Originally posted by piglet:
The hymn I miss the most is Thine be the glory to the tune Maccabaeus, not because it's no longer sung, but because it hadn't been written when the hymn-book we use, Common Praise, was published (1938), so it isn't sung here.
I thought Maccabaeuswas written by Handel in 1746
Posted by Chamois (# 16204) on
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I've always liked "Will your anchor hold in the storms of life?"
A good old Methodist hymn with a stirring tune including some lovely low notes.
Haven't sung it for years and years.
Posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe (# 5521) on
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quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Whatever happened to Kumbaya?
It died of shame.
I'm partial to "Softly and tenderly Jesus is calling".
Posted by Fineline (# 12143) on
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When I was in infant school, we always sang 'When a knight won his spurs' in assembly. I had no idea what it meant, but I liked the bits about giants and dragons! I haven't heard it since then.
And the hymn about hobgoblins and foul fiends - well, that was the line I always remembered. It was a bit of excitement in an otherwise boring assembly! 'Who would true valour see'. I think that one had a giant or two in it too!
In Sunday School, as a little kid, I liked singing 'I may never march in the infantry' - mostly because I found the actions fun and the tune bouncy! I suppose acting out fighting and shooting people isn't very PC nowadays! ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Lots of focus on Christianity as a battle to fight back then, I guess. Today hymns and songs have a different focus.
Posted by Trudy Scrumptious (# 5647) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Chamois:
I've always liked "Will your anchor hold in the storms of life?"
A good old Methodist hymn with a stirring tune including some lovely low notes.
Haven't sung it for years and years.
Should come to my church -- I'm relatively certain I've banged that out on the piano within the last two years at most. "We Have An Anchor! That Keeps the Soul!" I love the "Grounded firm and deep" line which includes the low notes you mention. I'm a big fan of the good old hymns in the Methodist tradition.
Posted by Stercus Tauri (# 16668) on
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When I was five years old and in school I loved to sing:
"Over the sea there are little brown children, fathers and mothers and babies dear;
They have not heard of the Father in Heaven; they have not heard that God is near.
and so on
That wasn't recently, I should add.
Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on
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"Thine be the glory" was one of my Dad's favourites. He met it in Belgium, in a barn used for worship, in French, some time between D-Day and the end of the war.
I thought I knew the chorus, but it hadn't been transmitted quite right. Close though.
À toi la gloire, O Ressuscité! À toi la victoire pour l'éternité!
In that time and place it must have meant much.
(Dad's version, second line went "Jesu ressuscité" or similar. And the third line had an "et" at the beginning. Obviously didn't scan well, but we had lots of irregular hymns in Congregational Praise, so I wasn't bothered by that.
Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on
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Of course, there are verses we don't sing of hymns that we still do. For instance, the "Rich man in his castle" verse from "All things bright and beautiful".
And what about these verses from Wesley's "O for a thousand tongues to sing":
Awake from guilty nature’s sleep,
And Christ shall give you light,
Cast all your sins into the deep,
And wash the Æthiop white.
(Rest available here: scroll down)
Not very PC are they?!!!
[Edited to put in url. Ariel, Heaven Host.]
[ 12. June 2013, 17:35: Message edited by: Ariel ]
Posted by Adrienne (# 2334) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Stercus Tauri:
When I was five years old and in school I loved to sing: Over the sea there are little brown children...
Me too, in Sunday School, it was indeed a looong time ago. And yet I can remember all the words, and the fact that the tune can be played on the piano on just the black notes.
(I can remember all that, but not how to code or to preview something I wrote 2 minutes ago)
[ 09. June 2013, 12:35: Message edited by: Adrienne ]
Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on
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I saw a film, way back, made in the States at a time where films for the black viewer market were totally separate from those for white audiences. It was called "Cabin in the sky" and concerned the son of a devout woman, who had gone off the rails, but, at the end, came back to the fold. (I've see the same theme in Bollywood!)
And the black congregation sang, and I did not realise how appalling it was at the time, "Little black sheep, come on home, gonna wash your fleece much white than foam".
By contrast, everyone should learn Horrible Histories' stunning Rosa Parks song "I sat on the bus".
She sat on the bus
[ 09. June 2013, 12:50: Message edited by: Penny S ]
Posted by Fineline (# 12143) on
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Another song we sang in primary school, which wouldn't be appropriate nowadays, was this:
He gave me eyes so I could see
The wonders of the world;
Without my eyes I could not see
The other boys and girls.
The rest of it can be found here.
I loved the song when I was a little child, but obviously we were a school full of able-bodied, seeing, hearing, speaking children, and it didn't even occur to me at five years old that this wouldn't apply to all children.
[Edited to prevent possible copyright infringement. - Ariel]
[ 09. June 2013, 13:24: Message edited by: Ariel ]
Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on
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When I stopped teaching five years ago, that was still on the go, Fineline.
Posted by Fineline (# 12143) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
When I stopped teaching five years ago, that was still on the go, Fineline.
Gosh, really? I figured schools are more inclusive of children with disabilities now, so they probably wouldn't sing it, because the words wouldn't apply to all the children. But then I work in a special school, where many of the children can't speak, and quite a few can't walk, and some are visually impaired and have hearing impairment, so it wouldn't make sense to sing it where I work.
Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on
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When I was at primary school we sang;
The child is black
The child is white
Together we learn
To read and write.
I don't suppose they sing that now. Blackness has become a problematic term when applied indiscriminately to anyone who isn't white. People's ethnic and political allegiances have become more specific and less inclusive since the 70s and 80s.
Posted by St. Gwladys (# 14504) on
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[tangent]I know someone of mixed race who has olive coloured skin and refers to herself as "black"[/tangent]
Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on
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Piglet, I think it may be the words that are excluding 'Thine be the glory' from your hymnbook. The tune is definitely by Handel, but according to a hymn book I've got, they were written by E L Budry in French (1854-1932) and translated into English in 1904 by R.B. Hoyle (1875-1939). So they would have been in copyright in 1939 and possibly not that well known, but as far as the UK is concerned, are out of it now.
I think it's a wonderful hymn. Easter isn't Easter without it, and IMHO nor is either a funeral or a hymn book complete without it. Good argument for replacing your hymn book, or at least preparing your own supplement, I'd have thought.
I have to admit I'm rather less fond of 'When a knight won his spurs'. Rather yucky versions seem to come on Songs of Praise rather too frequently.
I think it's a great pity that no hymn book I've encountered includes the following verse in 'Through all the changing scenes of life". It's in the original and corresponds to v 10 of the psalm:-
"While hungry lions lack their prey,
the Lord will food provide,
For such as put their trust in him,
and see their wants supplied."
One of the grumbles I have about the hymn book we use at church (not the only one) is the number of what I'd regard as hymns from the classic repertoire that it leaves out.
I can see why people drop Jerusalem, and can just about see why they omit "From Greenland's icy mountains", though I still miss it. But what hymn book can claim to be adequate, if it omits, e.g.?
"My God and is thy table spread", (Doddridge's Communion Hymn)
"Awake my soul and with the sun", (the Morning Hymn)
"As pants the hart for cooling streams" (Ps 42)
"Be still my soul" (Finlandia)
Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on
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And the "ink is black, the page is white" was another one in the BBC Assembly hymn book. And synchronicity strikes again - while watching "I sat on the bus" yesterday, I recalled to the friend I was with that song, and the reaction of the children to it.
I used to be the one who did "Hymn Practice", which was often the only place that hymns were sung, as the law became more and more ignored about worship, and I used the session to teach about content, avoid the obviously creationist stuff, and encourage children to know that when it said "Trad" or "Anon" it meant they could make up their own words as well as the ones in the book. We had some very thoughtful additions to "Kumbaya".
I did this one, and explained the history, to a hall full of white, Asian, African etc children, and their mouths dropped open in disbelief. And I told how a political party had had an election meeting on our school, and waved a reading book showing black and white children together and said that this was wrong. It was very satisfying (expecially since some of the people at that long ago meeting were parents at the time, and still about).
[ 09. June 2013, 13:21: Message edited by: Penny S ]
Posted by Ariel (# 58) on
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Just a gentle reminder that if you want to quote a verse, up to four lines should be fine; any more than that and we'd like a link, please, so as to avoid any potential copyright problems. Thanks!
Ariel
Heaven Host
Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on
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quote:
Originally posted by St. Gwladys:
[tangent]I know someone of mixed race who has olive coloured skin and refers to herself as "black"[/tangent]
My point has little to do with skin shade.
In the 70s and 80s British Asians and African-Caribbeans, for example, would both refer to themselves a 'black' as a sign of political solidarity, in a context where they both faced racism. This response can no longer be taken for granted in a more complex racial, cultural and political environment.
As has been shown already, songs that make mention of race have fallen out of favour.
Posted by Alex Cockell (# 7487) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Fineline:
When I was in infant school, we always sang 'When a knight won his spurs' in assembly. I had no idea what it meant, but I liked the bits about giants and dragons! I haven't heard it since then.
And the hymn about hobgoblins and foul fiends - well, that was the line I always remembered. It was a bit of excitement in an otherwise boring assembly! 'Who would true valour see'. I think that one had a giant or two in it too!
In Sunday School, as a little kid, I liked singing 'I may never march in the infantry' - mostly because I found the actions fun and the tune bouncy! I suppose acting out fighting and shooting people isn't very PC nowadays!
Lots of focus on Christianity as a battle to fight back then, I guess. Today hymns and songs have a different focus.
Funnily enough, Spurs was reaired this morning on Premier's Hearts and Hymns (reaired at 6pm) or on Diane Louise-Jordan's BBC R2 worship-music programme this morning. (dig it out on iPlayer)
Posted by Fineline (# 12143) on
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(Sorry about that, Ariel.)
I also remember 'The ink is black, the page is white/The child is black, the child is white'. I guess it's dated in more ways than one, now that classrooms are so multi-media. It would be more accurate to sing: 'The computer screen is any colour you want it to be, the font is any colour you want it to be'!
Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on
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Our blackboards, called so, were green for my whole career until whiteboards. We were supposed to use yellow chalk, as it was supposed to be easier to read - but we never had any in the stock room.
"The IWB is turquoise, the font is indigo"
because that is best for the children with Irlen's dyslexia.
[ 09. June 2013, 13:45: Message edited by: Penny S ]
Posted by Fineline (# 12143) on
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Anyone remember 'Think of a world without any flowers'? I'm guessing that's another one that's not sung any more. I used to find it really disturbing as a child, and it always made me cry. I took it very literally and imagined the world that it portrayed, with no flowers, no trees, no sun, no people, no homes, and I got quite frightened that this would happen, and I'd be the only one left in a cold, empty world! Looking back, I'm not sure that such a stark image is quite necessary in order for children to be grateful for God's creation!
Posted by Quinquireme (# 17384) on
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I like this blog:-
http://cathythinks.blogspot.co.uk/
Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on
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quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
When I was at primary school we sang;
The child is black
The child is white
Together we learn
To read and write.
I don't suppose they sing that now. Blackness has become a problematic term when applied indiscriminately to anyone who isn't white. People's ethnic and political allegiances have become more specific and less inclusive since the 70s and 80s.
I sang that at primary school in the late 90s!
Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on
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Had "think of a world" quite a bit - but I never heard it from a child's point of view. (I've just found a version with some supposedly child originated words of a Christian persuasion which would not have gone down well in a mixed school.)
I suppose I though of it from an environmental stewardship point of view.
I used to like "I love God's tiny creatures, that wander wild and free. The coral coated ladybird, the velvet humming bee..." Songs of Praise (not the Beeb).
I liked hymns with pictures in the words - the knight with his spurs (a most inappropriate image really, but there was a lot of Arthurian fantasy about) and so on.
And I used to do "anchor" as well - didn't know until recently that the image of Christ as anchor went back to the Catacombs.
Jade, you weren't in NW Kent, were you?
[ 09. June 2013, 13:56: Message edited by: Penny S ]
Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on
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I suspect this reveals that I'm hopelessly old fashioned, insensitive and all sorts of other bad things. It is, after all, over fifty years since I was last in a primary school. However, here goes.
I can see why, but I think it's a great pity that children should be barred from giving thanks for their good health, for being able to see, hear, speak etc, for fear that it might upset children who do not have these things.
"He gave us eyes to see them
and lips that we might tell ... "
(only two lines and the author died in 1895!),
There may be specific contexts where one might need to be more circumspect. As a general principle, though, that is like saying we should not thank God for our food because there are some people who have not got any. That would be profoundly ungrateful.
Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on
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"If I were a butterfly ..."
"From the rising of the sun ..."
"He is Lord, he is Lord".
Posted by North East Quine (# 13049) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Fineline:
Anyone remember 'Think of a world without any flowers'? I'm guessing that's another one that's not sung any more. I used to find it really disturbing as a child, and it always made me cry. I took it very literally and imagined the world that it portrayed, with no flowers, no trees, no sun, no people, no homes, and I got quite frightened that this would happen, and I'd be the only one left in a cold, empty world! Looking back, I'm not sure that such a stark image is quite necessary in order for children to be grateful for God's creation!
It's Hymn 155 in the current Church of Scotland hymnary, though not one I've sung personally.
Posted by leo (# 1458) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
"If I were a butterfly ..."
I last heard that about six years ago.
Seems trite at first but its message that we should be ourselves instead of imitating others seems good to me.
[ 09. June 2013, 14:14: Message edited by: leo ]
Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on
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That blog was interesting, and revealed just how different people may have different mental furniture from their different upbringings. Mine was Songs of Praise and Congregational Praise, and the concept of hymns about Mary is alien to me.
Posted by Fineline (# 12143) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
I can see why, but I think it's a great pity that children should be barred from giving thanks for their good health, for being able to see, hear, speak etc, for fear that it might upset children who do not have these things.
Apparently it's not barred - that was just a guess of mine, but Penny S said that it's still going. Guess it depends on the school and the diversity of children there. I agree that we should give thanks to God for all he has given us, but I also think that if you are in a school where some children don't walk/talk/see, it would be rather insensitive to get the whole school to sing that song, just as it would be insensitive to sing a song thanking God for the food he gives us if you are in the company of starving people who are not able to share in the food.
Posted by Fineline (# 12143) on
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quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
"If I were a butterfly ..."
I last heard that about six years ago.
Seems trite at first but its message that we should be ourselves instead of imitating others seems good to me.
I agree - and this is actually a song that is still going, at least in the school where I work. It works well in a special school, where all the children have very different abilities.
Posted by Abigail (# 1672) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Fineline:
When I was in infant school, we always sang 'When a knight won his spurs' in assembly. I had no idea what it meant...
Oh yes, me too! The line 'For God and for valour he rode through the land' always puzzled me. God I knew about, but who, I always wondered, was valour??
I loved singing the bit about 'the sword of my youth'... Can't really sing that any more, 50 years later
Posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe (# 5521) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
"Be still my soul" (Finlandia)
It's No. 382 in The Book of Worship for United States Forces, the hymnal still in use (so far as I know) at the Cadet Chapel, United States Military Academy, West Point.
I've also heard it done as a choir anthem in an Episcopal church, although it isn't in the 1982 Hymnal.
Posted by Japes (# 5358) on
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"I sing a song of the saints of God,
patient and brave and true"
I sung that quite a lot in my UK Baptist church as a child, but have not sung it since. Admittedly, I've since become an Anglican, and it's not in any of the books I've used since then.
There may also be a pond difference here!
Posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe (# 5521) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Japes:
"I sing a song of the saints of God"
Admittedly, I've since become an Anglican, and it's not in any of the books I've used since then.
Ah, the "Wannabe Hymn". Yes, a pond difference. It's No. 293 in the 1982 Hymnal of the Episcopal Church.
Posted by Percy B (# 17238) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Chamois:
I've always liked "Will your anchor hold in the storms of life?"
A good old Methodist hymn with a stirring tune including some lovely low notes.
Haven't sung it for years and years.
There is a lovely rendering of that on a CD by Ely Catherdal choir. Good fun!
Here is one priest's list of hymns not to be lost. Some I know some I don't.
Posted by Rosa Winkel (# 11424) on
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quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
When I was at primary school we sang;
The child is black
The child is white
Together we learn
To read and write.
I seem to know "The ink is black, the page is white", though I doubt I sung that in church.
Posted by Moo (# 107) on
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I am very unhappy that "The Son of God Goes Forth to War" was left out of the 1982 TEC hymnal.
The first line sounds militant, but if you look at the whole hymn, it's about martyrdom. I don't think there is any hymn in the 1982 hymnal that is about martyrdom.
Moo
Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on
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One of my favourites is To thee, O Lord, our hearts we raise , a harvest hymn with a tune by Sullivan. IMO verse 3 is the best ...
I have less fond memories of ploughing through all 8 verses of The voice that breathed o'er Eden at weddings...
Favourite? Well, I can't think of ANY liturgy that wouldn't be enhanced by Let all the world in every corner sing: wonderful words by George Herbert and there are TWO fine tunes - Luckington or Universal Praise.
Posted by Ferijen (# 4719) on
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They sing Think of a World without any flowers at my local church on Remembrance Sunday. It's the only day the uniformed organisations come to church and I think that's why they choose it.
But then this place had the cremation hymn Colours of Day the other week. It's like sitting in my school assembly from 1989...
Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Rosa Winkel:
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
When I was at primary school we sang;
The child is black
The child is white
Together we learn
To read and write.
I seem to know "The ink is black, the page is white", though I doubt I sung that in church.
Yes, it's the same one, but different verses. I sang it at primary school, not at church.
At school I think we sang a number of songs about children of different 'races' coming together. I don't know if schools still sing that type of song. Adults are more nervous about referring to race now, and there's probably less optimism about interracial mixing, since social - and consequently racial segregation - is decreasing in British schools.
As for 'We have an anchor',I love that hymn, but learnt it because I joined a Caribbean choir. I didn't know it was a Methodist hymn; if I'd just stuck with hymns from the ordinary Methodist services I regularly attended I'd never have come across it.
Posted by Avila (# 15541) on
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We had the ink and page song at school, also one that involved being an astronaut which I recall liking but can't remember.
Will your anchor hold i still use occasionally in services but it always reminds me of Boys Brigade services with the Sure and Steadfast link.
Think of a world without any flowers is in Hymns and Psalms the Uk Methodist hymnbook (mid '80's?) only just replaced and not in my patch. I've not sung it since I was a teen though it was in church as well as earlier in primary school, and never the full list of verses that go on and on.
As for Kumbaya - it is still used, I have heard it in an assembly in the past year. But also a good pattern for adding their own words to.
Growing up in south wales it was joked that it was a local dialect Cwm by yere... hey we were kids and jokes hard to come by!
Posted by Gill H (# 68) on
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Think of a World was a childhood favourite of mine. I would play it on the piano and sing it with my friends, and in the third verse I sang the recorder line as a descant. I can still remember it nearly 40 years later!
'The ink is black' was from the same A&C Black book. It was a pop song too, with a reggae feel. I often heard it on the radio.
Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on
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Conversation elsewhere here, and the astronaut memory - which I don't have - has reminded me of this from the BBC school book.
There are hundreds of sparrows
I particularly like the third verse:
There are hundreds of planets, thousands, millions,
Way out in space each has a place by God's decree;
There are hundreds and thousands, millions of planets,
But God knows every one and God knows me.
Posted by ken (# 2460) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Avila:
Will your anchor hold i still use occasionally in services but it always reminds me of Boys Brigade services with the Sure and Steadfast link.
Definitely BB! It is, or was, more or less their theme song. We've used it at least once in our church, but some time ago now. I never associated it with Methodists myself.
Posted by Squirrel (# 3040) on
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In Catholic grammar school during the early Seventies we had lots of hideous hymns for the Folk Masses. Who can forget "Sons of God?"
"Brothers, sisters we are one
And our life has just begun
In the spirit we are young
We can live forever
Songs of God, hear his holy word
Gather 'round the table of the Lord
Eat his body, drink his blood
And we'll sing a song of love
Alleilu, Alleilu, Alleilu, Alleluia"
Posted by Jonah the Whale (# 1244) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
"He is Lord, he is Lord".
We sang that one yesterday as it happens, but it certainly doesn't come up as often as it used to.
Posted by cosmic dance (# 14025) on
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This may just be an Antipodean thing but during the 70's and 80's a lot of lovely "Scripture in Song" songs were written. Just verses of scripture (obviously) set to music, with the words sometimes rearranged a bit for better scansion. Many of them were very beautiful and worshipful and I miss them. An easy way for memorising Scripture too. They fell out of favour somewhere along the line, possibly replaced by the modern JIMB (Jesus is my boyfriend) song.
Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on
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Although "Scripture in Song" did come from Down Under they were certainly popular in Britain. However some were difficult to sing as the Bible text was not always too amenable to being squeezed into the tune! Certainly the Garratts (who were behind SiS) came to the church I then attended early in 1977.
On a different note: when did anyone last hear "Freely, freely"?
Posted by cosmic dance (# 14025) on
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We still sing "freely, freely" at our church - maybe once or twice a year it might appear!
Posted by Lord Jestocost (# 12909) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
"He gave us eyes to see them
and lips that we might tell ... "
(only two lines and the author died in 1895!),
I think that is the least of that particular hymn's faults. Earlier on it perpetrates smug Victorian all's-well-with-the-worldness at its worst:
"The rich man in his castle,
The poor man at his gate;
God made them high and lowly
And ordered their estate."
Posted by Moo (# 107) on
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quote:
Originally posted by cosmic dance:
This may just be an Antipodean thing but during the 70's and 80's a lot of lovely "Scripture in Song" songs were written. Just verses of scripture (obviously) set to music, with the words sometimes rearranged a bit for better scansion. Many of them were very beautiful and worshipful and I miss them. An easy way for memorising Scripture too. They fell out of favour somewhere along the line, possibly replaced by the modern JIMB (Jesus is my boyfriend) song.
They were popular in the US also. There was a series of songbooks called Songs of Praise. One of those songs, "Seek Ye First" made it into the 1982 TEC hymnal.
Moo
Posted by IceQueen (# 8170) on
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Thee will I love, my God and king
Thee will I sing, my strength and tower
That's one from Songs of Praise that I've only ever sung at school (at least once a term if not more often), which is a shame because it's quite a good tune. 25 years on I can still hear the Head of Music yelling at us in hymn practice (school singing was taken very seriously) to crescendo through one of the long held notes towards the end... I've never come across it in other hymn books.
And there's a perky little number, Jesus is alive today that goes back even further for me, because I've never heard it since we moved churches when I was seven. I'm not sure that's a bad thing though, as it's exceedingly irritating when it pops into my brain prompted by threads like this.
I don't remember the words of the verses, but the chorus goes like this (in case it rings bells for anyone else):
Jesus is alive today x2
Jesus is alive
Very much alive,
Jesus is alive today
Posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe (# 5521) on
:
When I was young, we sang "O Lord I am not worthy" at communion time almost every Sunday. I was always baffled by the second verse, which included the line "No more by sin to grieve thee, or fly thy sweet control." I always pictured the choir flying model airplanes from the choir loft.
Posted by ken (# 2460) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
On a different note: when did anyone last hear "Freely, freely"?
Two weeks ago during the Eucharist in our church. Or was it three weeks? This side of Ascension Day, anyway.
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
One of those songs, "Seek Ye First" made it into the 1982 TEC hymnal.
If that's the "halle, halle, hallelu, halleluiah" one, its not from IS but Karen Lafferty. And we've also sung it recently. More than once. I think our place must just be rather out-of-date.
Posted by piglet (# 11803) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by The Kat in the Hat:
quote:
Originally posted by piglet:
The hymn I miss the most is Thine be the glory to the tune Maccabaeus, not because it's no longer sung, but because it hadn't been written when the hymn-book we use, Common Praise, was published (1938), so it isn't sung here.
I thought Maccabaeuswas written by Handel in 1746
I know, but I think either the words hadn't been written, or the two hadn't been put together. Either way, it's not in there ...
Posted by piglet (# 11803) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
... Good argument for replacing your hymn book ...
Sorry for double-post - just noticed Enoch's reply. The 1938 book has been replaced, and the replacement has Thine be the glory, but it also has an awful lot of politically-corrected cr@p, so it's only used for the BAS (modern-words) Eucharist, which doesn't involve the choir, and to which hardly anyone goes.
Posted by vw man (# 13951) on
:
Thank you for all your blogs so far.
2 more I have thought of that I have not sang in years are
Majesty and Turn your eyes opon Jesus.
both good worship songs that seem to be missing in my present Church
Posted by Organ Builder (# 12478) on
:
Perhaps the hymn is still sung in England, but "Hark, hark my soul; angelic songs are swelling" seems to have passed from American usage. It had a presence in hymnbooks through the 1950s, then seems to have disappeared. It's still a personal favorite, though.
Posted by LutheranChik (# 9826) on
:
When I was a child, one of our congregation's favorite songs was "Christ, the Life of All the Living." Our organist and congregation all loved it, and the church would resound with people enthusiastically singing, "Thousand, thousand thanks shall be/dearest Jesus, unto Thee."
It's not exactly in heavy rotation anymore. I miss it. Especially when I find myself singing some of the twee remedial-kindergarten-teacher/therapist lyrics the editors of the ELW have matched with traditional hymn settings.
Posted by A.Pilgrim (# 15044) on
:
Some while ago I compiled a list of all my favourite hymns and songs. There were 83 hymns and 40 songs, giving a total of 123. I’ve just looked through the list and noted those that I remember singing at some time in the last 20 years, and there were 17, leaving 106 that I haven’t sung in over 20 years.
Of those 17, 6 are traditional carols, which I sing when carol singing at Christmas, and another 3 we sang at my wedding (which is at least a church service where you get to choose your own hymns) leaving a hit rate of 8 hymns that I’ve really enjoyed singing in approx 1000 weeks of Sunday services. That’s not a great proportion...
So to answer the OP, I completely agree with Trudy:
quote:
Originally posted by Trudy Scrumptious:
quote:
Originally posted by Chamois:
I've always liked "Will your anchor hold in the storms of life?"
A good old Methodist hymn with a stirring tune including some lovely low notes.
Haven't sung it for years and years.
Should come to my church -- I'm relatively certain I've banged that out on the piano within the last two years at most. "We Have An Anchor! That Keeps the Soul!" I love the "Grounded firm and deep" line which includes the low notes you mention. I'm a big fan of the good old hymns in the Methodist tradition.
I was originally brought up in the Methodist Church, but abandoned it for a church with evangelical Bible teaching, and I still miss the old hymns that I haven’t sung for decades, such as:
Christ is risen! Hallelujah!;
Now I have found the ground wherein (to the tune Madrid by Matthews – not on Cyberhymnal); or
O Love that wilt not let me go (to St Margaret);
and I’ve always wanted to sing all twelve verses of my top favourite
The God of Abraham Praise, the lyrics of which have a venerable ancestry.
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
One of my favourites is To thee, O Lord, our hearts we raise , a harvest hymn with a tune by Sullivan. IMO verse 3 is the best ...
...
That’s on my favourites list as well – never sung it in church though.
And as mentioned by cosmic dance, there were some good songs in Scripture in Song, some of which were set to tunes in the Hebrew dance style which got faster and faster and were tremendous fun to sing. (Then shall the virgin rejoice in the dance...). As well as The Butterfly Song previously mentioned, there were others from the Fisherfolk stable (Sound of Living Waters et. seq.) such as Who does Jesus love? (The Everybody Song). All disappeared into the mists of time. Such a pity that the great heritage of worship hymns and songs mostly gets ignored in the craze for modernity and avoiding the deadly sin of worship: being old fashioned – in other words, singing anything more than 10 years old. And don’t get me started on modern worship songs, or this thread will head rapidly for DH territory, and we really don’t want that...
Angus
Posted by Amika (# 15785) on
:
It's the childhood ones I never hear any more, such as:
Daisies are our silver
Buttercups our gold,
This is all the treasure we can have or hold
or
At the end of the day,
we kneel and pray
Thanking God for a lovely day
or (and I really haven't heard this anywhere since I was very young)
So here hath been dawning
Another blue day
Think wilt thou let it slip useless away?
One from my teen years that I never hear despite it being a 'modern hymn' is
Firmly I believe and truly
God is three and God is one
Anyone else remember those last two?
Posted by Drifting Star (# 12799) on
:
Yes! And the first one. I can't think where or when I last sang 'Firmly I believe and truly', but the other two were regulars at my school. Lovely, lovely hymns.
Another that I remember with very great fondness from school, although we only sang it once a year, is 'Summer suns are glowing, over land and sea'. It develops into the very best sort of earworm every now and then.
Posted by OddJob (# 17591) on
:
Fineline rasied a point that crossed my mind a few days ago: we rarely sing older songs such as Onward Christian Soldiers, which liken the Christian life to a battle. However I was thinking of 1980s songs which allude to battles and conflict, often with military metaphors. Think of some of the words Graham Kendrick wrote in the early 1980s for example, just after he changed from writing entertainment songs and LPs to worship songs. The approach now seem really dated.
I'm afraid I find much modern worship music somewhat juvenile in its style.
Posted by Moo (# 107) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
One of those songs, "Seek Ye First" made it into the 1982 TEC hymnal.
If that's the "halle, halle, hallelu, halleluiah" one, its not from IS but Karen Lafferty. And we've also sung it recently. More than once. I think our place must just be rather out-of-date.
I don't know what IS is. When I refer to Songs of Praise I am referring to a series of songbooks published in the US. They attributed the song to Karen Lafferty.
Moo
Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on
:
Moo
Songs of Praise in the UK refer to two quite specific hymn books. The one that I am pretty sure Ken is saying it is not from is one published in 1927. Quite a few of the hymns in that originated with the compilers.
There is also the hymnbook that goes the BBC programme of the same name.
Jengie
Posted by wheelie racer (# 13854) on
:
quote:
Conversation elsewhere here, and the astronaut memory - which I don't have - has reminded me of this from the BBC school book.
There are hundreds of sparrows
I particularly like the third verse:
There are hundreds of planets, thousands, millions,
Way out in space each has a place by God's decree;
There are hundreds and thousands, millions of planets,
But God knows every one and God knows me.
I have fond memories singing this song in the Salvation Army Sunday School and junior choir as a child So sad to hear that John Gowans who wrote the words died just before Christmas. A genius of words and real man of faith
Posted by Moo (# 107) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
Moo
Songs of Praise in the UK refer to two quite specific hymn books. The one that I am pretty sure Ken is saying it is not from is one published in 1927. Quite a few of the hymns in that originated with the compilers.
There is also the hymnbook that goes the BBC programme of the same name.
The US Songs of Praise were published by Servant Music. The first thin paperback volume was published in 1977. Three more were published over the next few years.
Moo
Posted by Avila (# 15541) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
On a different note: when did anyone last hear "Freely, freely"?
Umm... this sunday, and I chose it ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
Posted by leo (# 1458) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Drifting Star:
Another that I remember with very great fondness from school, although we only sang it once a year, is 'Summer suns are glowing, over land and sea'. It develops into the very best sort of earworm every now and then.
I chose that when my 60th birthday fell on a Sunday - we had it for the 1st hymn, despite it raining outside.
Posted by TurquoiseTastic (# 8978) on
:
I remember a hymn that started:
"Yield not to temptation, for yielding is sin"
and contained the lines
"Shun evil companions, bad language disdain,
God's name hold in reverence, nor take it in vain"
I can't remember whether we ever really sang it or whether it just happened to be in the hymnbooks!
Posted by Organ Builder (# 12478) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by TurquoiseTastic:
I remember a hymn that started:
"Yield not to temptation, for yielding is sin"
"Each victory will help you some other to win..."
Oh yes--I remember singing this quite a lot when I was growing up in the 1970s.
I'm not sure it "took"...
Posted by Trudy Scrumptious (# 5647) on
:
The best line in that is "Fight manfully onwards, dark passions subdue!" I always thought as a child (yes we sang it) that "dark passions" sounded both sinister and exciting.
Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Trudy Scrumptious:
The best line in that is "Fight manfully onwards, dark passions subdue!" I always thought as a child (yes we sang it) that "dark passions" sounded both sinister and exciting.
They are. Although I understand that Emma Watson has denied she's going to be in the film version. Shame.
Posted by Chamois (# 16204) on
:
The church I used to go to before I moved to my current address uses one of those awful Powerpoint projectors for displaying the words of songs, rather than decent hymn books. One Sunday the nasty contraption broke down (hallelujah!) and we all had a great time singing the old Sunday school choruses.
"Wide, wide as the ocean" went particularly well - with all the actions, of course.
It's amazing how the things you learn in childhood really stick.
Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on
:
I'm lucky that my church uses a 'trad' hymn book.
Luckier still, years ago I worked for a vicar who preferred that hymns not be sung more than once a year: result was we sang all those that most other churches left alone [ Great God, what do I see and hear anyone?]. I got into the habit of considering ALL the hymns in the book, not just those that I preferred or grew up with, and in subsequent posts I've continued to try to use all the hymns in the book.
So, we still sing Onward Christian soldiers and Stand up for Jesus as well as the Advent and Lent proses, plus most of the Office Hymns, etc, etc.
And for Sea Sunday we'll have Will your anchor hold as well as Eternal Father, strong to save .
Posted by The Kat in the Hat (# 2557) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Chamois:
The church I used to go to before I moved to my current address uses one of those awful Powerpoint projectors for displaying the words of songs, rather than decent hymn books. One Sunday the nasty contraption broke down (hallelujah!) and we all had a great time singing the old Sunday school choruses.
"Wide, wide as the ocean" went particularly well - with all the actions, of course.
It's amazing how the things you learn in childhood really stick.
I don't understand - we use the projector in order sing the songs that are not in our regular song book. Why is this a bad thing?
Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on
:
Those of us brought up on the CSSM (or Scripture Union) chorus book will know the pairing of "In my heart there rings a melody of love" and "Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, sweetest name I know" - otherwise known as "304 and 305 and 304 again"!
Posted by Alex Cockell (# 7487) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Rosa Winkel:
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
When I was at primary school we sang;
The child is black
The child is white
Together we learn
To read and write.
I seem to know "The ink is black, the page is white", though I doubt I sung that in church.
A lot of songs that hit school hymnbooks in the 70s were old folk tracks that were in the charts in 1970 and 1971.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7noGoJ0_Cuw Here's 3 Dog Night's version.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GeQO8WkXL5I Greyhound's version from TOTP in 1971.
Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on
:
Yes, the folksy songs of the 70s seem to be very out of vogue in churches and probably schools nowadays. I did sing 'Lord of the Dance' in church the other week, but that's a rare one now.
In terms of Methodist churches, I think the circuit you're in influences what's sung. I was in what was obviously quite a 'traditional' circuit, and in a congregation of fairly elderly members where the music was influenced by the very traditional attitudes of the organist. Putting these two things together meant that the Methodist 'Hymns and Psalms' always dominated proceedings, and even then, not every song in that book got much exposure. (This was just before the new red hymn book came into being. From what I've seen of it, I'm not too impressed.) Preachers sometimes came with copies of other hymns, of course.
Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on
:
@ Baptist trainfan
CSSM!!! Wow, we may be showing signs of our age but I have very fond memories of summers spent on a beach with CSSM: tide-fights, castle competitions, etc, etc, etc. I remember In my heart there rings a melody but I'm not so sure about the other.
One glorious (?) day the tide managed to come round to the side of the group and a heroic effort was required to save the harmonium from being lost to the waves...
Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by The Kat in the Hat:
quote:
Originally posted by Chamois:
The church I used to go to before I moved to my current address uses one of those awful Powerpoint projectors for displaying the words of songs, rather than decent hymn books. One Sunday the nasty contraption broke down (hallelujah!) and we all had a great time singing the old Sunday school choruses.
"Wide, wide as the ocean" went particularly well - with all the actions, of course.
It's amazing how the things you learn in childhood really stick.
I don't understand - we use the projector in order sing the songs that are not in our regular song book. Why is this a bad thing?
Because some people are snobby. 'My dear, in stead of the English Hymnal - original edition of course, and all our copies personally signed by Rafe - they use a projector. They'll be having guitars and tambourines next'.
Don't worry too much about it. It is the Lord who chooses who to invite to join him, not us.
Posted by vw man (# 13951) on
:
I wonder what modern hymns and songs will still be sung in ten twenty years time,not many I would think,I would hope"Christ is my corner stone" and in in my Church once or twice a year we sing "There is a redeamer"
Posted by Firenze (# 619) on
:
Mebbe. Mebbe no. I can think of other reasons to dislike projected text besides feelings of cultural superiority.
I find it difficult to read (distance/sight lines/back lighting). Also, with a book in my hand, I can see the entire text (ooh, only another six verses/ tricky bit coming up etc).
Though I expect the Kindle-hymnal is not far off (moored to the pews by stout flex).
Posted by Kaplan Corday (# 16119) on
:
Songs about "the blood" appear to have fallen out of favour, too.
Examples included "Have you been to Jesus for the cleansing flow / Are you washed in the blood of the Lamb?"; "What can wash away my sin? / Nothing but the blood of Jesus"; and poor old Cowper's "There is a fountain filled with blood".
I developed various reservations about them, but in the end decided that hymns which could rile smartarse liberals so effectively must have something going for them!
[ 12. June 2013, 07:50: Message edited by: Kaplan Corday ]
Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on
:
All grouped together like that they begin to hint at cryptic Mithraism. Only Aries instead of Taurus.
Posted by Pine Marten (# 11068) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Amika:
It's the childhood ones I never hear any more, such as:
Daisies are our silver
Buttercups our gold,
This is all the treasure we can have or hold
or
<snip>
So here hath been dawning
Another blue day
Think wilt thou let it slip useless away?
Gosh, these two really brought back memories of school, and I could hear them instantly in my ear.
quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
Mebbe. Mebbe no. I can think of other reasons to dislike projected text besides feelings of cultural superiority.
I find it difficult to read (distance/sight lines/back lighting). Also, with a book in my hand, I can see the entire text (ooh, only another six verses/ tricky bit coming up etc).
Though I expect the Kindle-hymnal is not far off (moored to the pews by stout flex).
Firenze is quite right. Add tall heads in the way, the words being out of focus, or indeed as happened at a recent memorial service, the wrong verses being projected to the correct ones in the booklet, so people were singing different things.
We have a supplementary book, comprising people's suggestions, so we still have things like Seek ye first - and we have certainly done Lord of the Dance *fairly* recently.
Posted by TurquoiseTastic (# 8978) on
:
My housemaster at school was particularly fond of Chesterton's "O God Of Earth And Ocean"
The walls of gold entomb us
The swords of scorn divide
Take not thy thunder from us
But take away our pride
I have never heard it sung anywhere else
By contrast he hated "I Vow To Thee, My Country" and always refused to sing it.
Posted by ken (# 2460) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by vw man:
I wonder what modern hymns and songs will still be sung in ten twenty years time,not many I would think
Shine Jesus Shine is already more than 25 years old
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
I suspect that it, and two or three more of the songs of South East London's finest, will survive.
Lord of the Dance is over fifty - it might be true to say that it has already survived and gone mainstream.
Posted by leo (# 1458) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by TurquoiseTastic:
My housemaster at school was particularly fond of Chesterton's "O God Of Earth And Ocean"
The walls of gold entomb us
The swords of scorn divide
Take not thy thunder from us
But take away our pride
I have never heard it sung anywhere else.
I regularly choose it for choral evensong.
The the shower that is in government at the moment, it is very relevant:
quote:
our earthly rulers falter,
our people drift and die;....from lies of tongue and pen,
from all the easy speeches
that comfort cruel men,...deliver us
[ 12. June 2013, 15:39: Message edited by: leo ]
Posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe (# 5521) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by vw man:
I wonder what modern hymns and songs will still be sung in ten twenty years time
"Come to the Water" and "I am the Bread of Life" would be on my list.
Posted by Percy B (# 17238) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by vw man:
I wonder what modern hymns and songs will still be sung in ten twenty years time,not many I would think
Shine Jesus Shine is already more than 25 years old
I suspect that it, and two or three more of the songs of South East London's finest, will survive.
Lord of the Dance is over fifty - it might be true to say that it has already survived and gone mainstream.
Ken - I have to say I seldom hear Lord of the Dance nowadays...
Posted by georgiaboy (# 11294) on
:
We had 'All things bright & beautiful' for one of the communion hymns a few weeks ago, and I got in trouble (sitting in the back row of choir) for doing (some of) the motions I remembered from a childhood in Methodist Sunday Schools. (I was very discreet, and kept my hands below the desk level, but my stallmates got the giggles.) It was great fun! ![[Yipee]](graemlins/spin.gif)
Posted by Try (# 4951) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
Of course, there are verses we don't sing of hymns that we still do. For instance, the "Rich man in his castle" verse from "All things bright and beautiful".
And what about these verses from Wesley's "O for a thousand tongues to sing":
Awake from guilty nature’s sleep,
And Christ shall give you light,
Cast all your sins into the deep,
And wash the Æthiop white.
(Rest available here: scroll down)
Not very PC are they?!!!
The United Methodist Hymnal in the United States has a version of "O For a Thousand Tongues to Sing" with all of the verses included except for the one about the Æthiop. It is sometimes used instead of the standard Methodist version when a very long hymn is needed. Methodists, incidentally, generally sing a version of the hymn with seven verses, rather than the four sung in other traditions.
[Edited to put url in - Ariel, Heaven Host]
[ 12. June 2013, 17:33: Message edited by: Ariel ]
Posted by Avila (# 15541) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
Though I expect the Kindle-hymnal is not far off (moored to the pews by stout flex).
The new British Methodist hymnbook Singing the Faith has a Kindle version available, though I think it will be bring your own rather than kit wired to the pews. And for those who benefit from changing size, font, colour, background etc it can be a good thing.
Meanwhile hours into da-da-da-daing a tune today I suddenly realised it was the 'Ink is black the page is white' and I hold this thread and its contributors fully responsible!
Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by TurquoiseTastic:
My housemaster at school was particularly fond of Chesterton's "O God Of Earth And Ocean"
The walls of gold entomb us
The swords of scorn divide
Take not thy thunder from us
But take away our pride
I have never heard it sung anywhere else
By contrast he hated "I Vow To Thee, My Country" and always refused to sing it.
I think your housemaster either bowdlerised or depapalised it. The only version I've met starts,
"O God of earth and altar".
Great hymn. I wish it was sung more. But I can see
"Tie in a living tether
The prince and priest and thrall"
fit's modern ideas about as badly as,
"The rich man in his castle,
The poor man at his gate;
God made them high and lowly
And ordered their estate."
On "I vow to thee my country", I've said before that I think the line, "And there's another country, I've heard of long ago" is one of the saddest I know.
Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on
:
Actually, I think the tie in a living tether is a very important concept - pity he used the word thrall, but when one gets the impression the upper ranks are thinking chav, skiver, oik, what's the difference? The living tether does bind us all in it together. But then I do tend to think as a Romantic.
Posted by Zacchaeus (# 14454) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Percy B:
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by vw man:
I wonder what modern hymns and songs will still be sung in ten twenty years time,not many I would think
Shine Jesus Shine is already more than 25 years old
I suspect that it, and two or three more of the songs of South East London's finest, will survive.
Lord of the Dance is over fifty - it might be true to say that it has already survived and gone mainstream.
Ken - I have to say I seldom hear Lord of the Dance nowadays...
Lord of the dance is very often chosen for weddings in our little group of churches. I think it is one of the few hymns that many know one that they learnt at school..
[ 12. June 2013, 19:45: Message edited by: Zacchaeus ]
Posted by Percy B (# 17238) on
:
One of the problems, I have to say, with SOME (not all) of the older hymns that I love is that the language doesnt fit well with modern style.
I was looking at this list I referred to in thinking more about this. Now on that list is a hymn I love 'Once to every man and nation' (although please not to HYFRYDOL as suggested there!). But I somehow guess that hymn with those words wouldn't make it to a modern revision of a hymn book...
Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
Actually, I think the tie in a living tether is a very important concept - pity he used the word thrall, but when one gets the impression the upper ranks are thinking chav, skiver, oik, what's the difference? The living tether does bind us all in it together. But then I do tend to think as a Romantic.
Yes, quite right. It fits very well with Catholic Social Teaching and thus e.g. Christian Democracy (not that Chesterton was Christian democrat, or even a proto-one).
Posted by Kaplan Corday (# 16119) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Zacchaeus:
Lord of the dance is very often chosen for weddings in our little group of churches. I think it is one of the few hymns that many know one that they learnt at school..
Back in the Seventies there were dark mutterings in some Christian circles that Lord Of The Dance was a cryptic tribute to Shiva.
In that era I seem to remember that Morning Has Broken - which I haven't heard in years - was a popular choice for weddings.
Posted by OddJob (# 17591) on
:
Two other hymns I recall being poular in the 1970s, which I'm glad not to have heard in church for a long time:
'Let Us With a Gladsome Mind Praise the Lord for He is Kind' - including the dated and some would say offensive versicle: 'Let us blaze his name abroad - for of gods he is the God'
or 'Lord Thy Word Abideth'. Can anyone think of a blander, more predictable tune?
Posted by TurquoiseTastic (# 8978) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by TurquoiseTastic:
My housemaster at school was particularly fond of Chesterton's "O God Of Earth And Ocean"
The walls of gold entomb us
The swords of scorn divide
Take not thy thunder from us
But take away our pride
I have never heard it sung anywhere else
By contrast he hated "I Vow To Thee, My Country" and always refused to sing it.
I think your housemaster either bowdlerised or depapalised it. The only version I've met starts,
"O God of earth and altar".
Aargh! Sorry, it was my faulty memory de-papalising it. Perhaps it is my Ulster Protestant subconscious at work.
Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Percy B:
... Now on that list is a hymn I love 'Once to every man and nation' (although please not to HYFRYDOL as suggested there!). But I somehow guess that hymn with those words wouldn't make it to a modern revision of a hymn book...
I certainly hope not. Two really serious theological errors and what I think must be prime candidate for the most repulsive imagery in any hymn.
Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by OddJob:
Two other hymns I recall being popular in the 1970s, which I'm glad not to have heard in church for a long time:
'Let Us With a Gladsome Mind Praise the Lord for He is Kind' - including the dated and some would say offensive versicle: 'Let us blaze his name abroad - for of gods he is the God'
or 'Lord Thy Word Abideth'. Can anyone think of a blander, more predictable tune?
'Let us with a gladsome mind' is Milton's version of Psalm 136. The usual tune is a bit dull. However, I've never heard it suggested that 'Let us blaze his name abroad - for of gods he is the God', is in some way unsuitable, dated or offensive. It would not have occurred to me that it might be. Why?
Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by OddJob:
'Let Us With a Gladsome Mind Praise the Lord for He is Kind' - including the dated and some would say offensive versicle: 'Let us blaze his name abroad - for of gods he is the God'
Why might it be offensive?
Posted by Mudfrog (# 8116) on
:
We have all the old militant hymns -
- Onward Christian Soldiers,
- Stand up, Stand up for Jesus,
- Soldiers of Christ Arise,
- Hold the Fort for I am Coming, (stop sniggering at the back!)
- Dare to be a Daniel,
- Soldiers of the Cross Arise (William How)
- The Son of God Goes Forth to War (Reginald Heber)
- Who is on the Lord's Side? (Frances Havergal)
- Fight the Good Fight
- We are Marching on with Shield and Banner Bright (Fanny Crosby)
- Hark, hark my soul, what Warlike Songs are Swelling (Frederick Faber)
We have a lot of Salvation Army war songs too that none of you will know, but the above are all 'church' hymns.
Get a good brass band behind them and you just can't beat it.
There is no PC nonsense in The Salvation Army - no inclusive language, no stripping out the militarism.
Come and Join Us!
Posted by Mudfrog (# 8116) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by OddJob:
Two other hymns I recall being poular in the 1970s, which I'm glad not to have heard in church for a long time:
'Let Us With a Gladsome Mind Praise the Lord for He is Kind' - including the dated and some would say offensive versicle: 'Let us blaze his name abroad - for of gods he is the God'
or 'Lord Thy Word Abideth'. Can anyone think of a blander, more predictable tune?
We have both of these too - the first is undeniably and unassailably Scriptural. Ten Commandments anybody?
The second is OK if the tune is played at a stately tempo. The words are lovely.
Posted by Mudfrog (# 8116) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by Percy B:
... Now on that list is a hymn I love 'Once to every man and nation' (although please not to HYFRYDOL as suggested there!). But I somehow guess that hymn with those words wouldn't make it to a modern revision of a hymn book...
I certainly hope not. Two really serious theological errors and what I think must be prime candidate for the most repulsive imagery in any hymn.
I'd never heard of this hymn before so I had to look it up. I have read it once through - very difficult and dense but it's one of those hymns that refers to a particular time - it's a protest against America's war with Mexico. So maybe not relevant anymore.
Perhaps someone could use it as a protest against any involvement on Afghanistan?
I didn't like it but maybe it was helpful to people living at the time.
I can't detect the theological errors, tbh.
[ 13. June 2013, 05:45: Message edited by: Mudfrog ]
Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on
:
That teems with images I don't find at all helpful.
Meanwhile, I've been getting, as an earworm, "Surely my captain may depend on me, though but an armour bearer I may be." Last sung, I think, in the hall out of the back of Radnor Park Congregational Church in Folkestone. For some reason, I very much liked that sort of thing at the age I was then - nine? The sort of romantic militarism that infuses Narnia, and that knight winning his spurs, and children's retelling of the Arthurian legends. It didn't seem to have anything to do with the WWI militarism that my Grandad taught me against.
[ 13. June 2013, 07:11: Message edited by: Penny S ]
Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
... I can't detect the theological errors, tbh.
The first one is the notion that only once in your life do you have to take a key moral decision. Note, that's portrayed as a moral decision, not a spiritual one. Get that right, and you can do what you like the rest of the time. Miss it, and you're done for.
In its context, it is difficult not to conclude that it was also grandiloquent nonsense. Who now knows or cares, what the great moral issue was in December 1845, when 'to side with truth was noble'?
The second is,
"Toiling up new Calv’ries ever ... "
There is only one calvary.
The repulsive imagery, for any that missed it, is Jesus ascending the Via Dolorosa lit by an avenue of incandescent saints like street lamps,
"By the light of burning martyrs, Christ, Thy bleeding feet we track".
Posted by Mudfrog (# 8116) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
... I can't detect the theological errors, tbh.
The first one is the notion that only once in your life do you have to take a key moral decision. Note, that's portrayed as a moral decision, not a spiritual one. Get that right, and you can do what you like the rest of the time. Miss it, and you're done for.
In its context, it is difficult not to conclude that it was also grandiloquent nonsense. Who now knows or cares, what the great moral issue was in December 1845, when 'to side with truth was noble'?
The second is,
"Toiling up new Calv’ries ever ... "
There is only one calvary.
The repulsive imagery, for any that missed it, is Jesus ascending the Via Dolorosa lit by an avenue of incandescent saints like street lamps,
"By the light of burning martyrs, Christ, Thy bleeding feet we track".
The first thought I agree with you - though the context reveals The Choice the author is referring to.
The second? Hmm, yes we know there is only one Calvary but do we not all have our own cross to bear, our own Calvary where we put to death the old flesh?
Here is an example from our song book that speaks of a personal Calvary:
How can I better serve thee, Lord?
Posted by la vie en rouge (# 10688) on
:
This thread has reminded me of all those late 90s/early noughties praise songs that were sung with deep earnestness at just about every CU meeting of my entire student career. Over the Mountains and the Sea (aka "we've been singing this song forever"), Heart of Worship, Purify my Heart... there were loads of them that I haven't heard for ages. I don't think they were bad songs, as such, but they got done to death at the time. Maybe some of them will be back at some point.
Posted by North East Quine (# 13049) on
:
I haven't heard "Jesus wants me as a Sunbeam" for years. Nor "Jesus bids us shine."
Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
In its context, it is difficult not to conclude that it was also grandiloquent nonsense. Who now knows or cares, what the great moral issue was in December 1845, when 'to side with truth was noble'?
Um, the growing crisis over slavery in the USA and its territories, actually- the verses come from a poem called 'The Present Crisis' by the New England poet (and abolitionist) James Russell Lowell. Does this mean that we should still be singing it today? Not necessarily. Does this mean that in its context it was 'grandiloquent nonsense'? Well this was a very big question at the time and one which - even apart from the moral issues of slavery itself- would have huge consequences for the kind of country the USA was going to be. So I think I wouldn't dismiss it, in its time and context, quite so casually as Enoch seems to do.
Posted by ken (# 2460) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
..the verses come from a poem called 'The Present Crisis' by the New England poet (and abolitionist) James Russell Lowell.
Who talked only to the Cabots, who talked only to God.
Posted by Fr Weber (# 13472) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Percy B:
I was looking at this list I referred to in thinking more about this. Now on that list is a hymn I love 'Once to every man and nation' (although please not to HYFRYDOL as suggested there!). But I somehow guess that hymn with those words wouldn't make it to a modern revision of a hymn book...
If that Unitarian tosh must be sung, it should be to Ton-y-Botel.
Posted by Percy B (# 17238) on
:
Oh dear, I hadn't realised that hymn was so contentious. I rather liked it when I was younger maybe I should have paid more attention to the words. The tune was fun (EBENEZER - I think is what we sung it too). As I think back my memory of it is not so much the precise words (but I do remeber the burning martyrs) - it was more the power and solemnity of it.
Another on the list I pointed to which I know - I have to confess to not knowing the others - is 'A man there lived in Galilee' but to tell the truth I thought that was still widely used. Its interesting how we have differing perspectives on these hymns.
Posted by Rosa Winkel (# 11424) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by TurquoiseTastic:
My housemaster at school was particularly fond of Chesterton's "O God Of Earth And Ocean"
The walls of gold entomb us
The swords of scorn divide
Take not thy thunder from us
But take away our pride
I have never heard it sung anywhere else
Iron Maiden included that verse in their song Revelations. Apart from that I've never heard it.
Posted by Fr Weber (# 13472) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Percy B:
Oh dear, I hadn't realised that hymn was so contentious. I rather liked it when I was younger maybe I should have paid more attention to the words.
I have only ever banned two hymns from the liturgy; that one and Dearmer's "Sing praise to God who spoke through man," which babbles on about Socrates and Plato and a number of (unnamed) poets and artists. "Sing praise to God who reigns above" is a much better hymn for the same tune (Elbing).
Posted by South Coast Kevin (# 16130) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by la vie en rouge:
This thread has reminded me of all those late 90s/early noughties praise songs that were sung with deep earnestness at just about every CU meeting of my entire student career. Over the Mountains and the Sea (aka "we've been singing this song forever"), Heart of Worship, Purify my Heart... there were loads of them that I haven't heard for ages. I don't think they were bad songs, as such, but they got done to death at the time. Maybe some of them will be back at some point.
Ah, we were students at roughly the same time! However, I only became a Christian just before starting university so all those songs were brand new for me, even if they'd been done to death for the previous few years. This also explains why I love 'Shine Jesus Shine', despite it being done to death in the 80s...
Posted by PeteC (# 10422) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
This also explains why I love 'Shine Jesus Shine', despite it being done to death in the 80s...
And for decades after.
Posted by leo (# 1458) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
quote:
Originally posted by Percy B:
Oh dear, I hadn't realised that hymn was so contentious. I rather liked it when I was younger maybe I should have paid more attention to the words.
I have only ever banned two hymns from the liturgy; that one and Dearmer's "Sing praise to God who spoke through man," which babbles on about Socrates and Plato and a number of (unnamed) poets and artists. "Sing praise to God who reigns above" is a much better hymn for the same tune (Elbing).
And I banned 'There is a green hill' for PSA.
Posted by OddJob (# 17591) on
:
@ Enoch & SvitlanaV2
I didn't realise that blazing abroad was taken from a Psalm, but instead read it as a relic of colonialism.
Posted by Chamois (# 16204) on
:
Originally posted by Pine Marten:
quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
quote:
Mebbe. Mebbe no. I can think of other reasons to dislike projected text besides feelings of cultural superiority.
I find it difficult to read (distance/sight lines/back lighting). Also, with a book in my hand, I can see the entire text (ooh, only another six verses/ tricky bit coming up etc).
Though I expect the Kindle-hymnal is not far off (moored to the pews by stout flex).
Firenze is quite right. Add tall heads in the way, the words being out of focus, or indeed as happened at a recent memorial service, the wrong verses being projected to the correct ones in the booklet, so people were singing different things.
These are all excellent points, but I was just expressing a personal preference. Personal preferences are allowed in Heaven!
Posted by ken (# 2460) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
And I banned 'There is a green hill' for PSA.
Don't worry, you'll get over it.
Though its fun to imagine the good folk of Bristol having secret underground hymn-singing sessions where they can enjoy their old favourites away from the censorious preacher.
Of course the one I'd ban is the neo-Gnostic unitarian death-worshipping noisome squamous quivering blasphemy-that-sings which is Dear Lord and Father of Mankind
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
quote:
Originally posted by Percy B:
I was looking at this list I referred to in thinking more about this. Now on that list is a hymn I love 'Once to every man and nation' (although please not to HYFRYDOL as suggested there!). But I somehow guess that hymn with those words wouldn't make it to a modern revision of a hymn book...
If that Unitarian tosh must be sung, it should be to Ton-y-Botel.
The hymn seems to be a short extract from a much longer poem apparently printed here Its clearly a political argument, not a hymn.
Posted by Chamois (# 16204) on
:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
'Let us with a gladsome mind' is Milton's version of Psalm 136. The usual tune is a bit dull
I think the tune works OK if you sing it reasonably quickly. It has to bounce along and not drag. I like it as a group song - one person sings the verse lines (or everyone can take it in turns to sing a verse line) and everyone joins in the chorus lines. You can keep it together and moving with speed if everyone claps in time to the beat.
But I've always wondered, did Milton not bother to translate the "Og king of Bashan" bit and all the rest of the Israelite victories during the conquest of Canaan? Or did he translate the whole psalm but some bits have been left out of the hymn books? Does anyone here know?
Posted by Chamois (# 16204) on
:
originally posted by Odd Job:
quote:
I didn't realise that blazing abroad was taken from a Psalm, but instead read it as a relic of colonialism
Now if we did sing the sections of the psalm that deal with the conquest of Canaan (assuming Milton actually included them in his translation) that really WOULD be a relic of colonialism!
Posted by Garasu (# 17152) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
Of course the one I'd ban is the neo-Gnostic unitarian death-worshipping noisome squamous quivering blasphemy-that-sings which is Dear Lord and Father of Mankind
Don't hold back!
Actually. Sorry, there may be all sorts of reasons for disliking it but "neo-Gnostic unitarian death-worshipping ... blasphemy"?
Posted by Kaplan Corday (# 16119) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
squamous
Covered in scales?
This is only the second time I have ever come across anyone using it.
The other was in Fishes' Heaven: "...squamous, omnipotent and kind.." (I think; I am quoting from memory).
Posted by georgiaboy (# 11294) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Chamois:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
'Let us with a gladsome mind' is Milton's version of Psalm 136. The usual tune is a bit dull
I think the tune works OK if you sing it reasonably quickly. It has to bounce along and not drag. I like it as a group song - one person sings the verse lines (or everyone can take it in turns to sing a verse line) and everyone joins in the chorus lines. You can keep it together and moving with speed if everyone claps in time to the beat.
But I've always wondered, did Milton not bother to translate the "Og king of Bashan" bit and all the rest of the Israelite victories during the conquest of Canaan? Or did he translate the whole psalm but some bits have been left out of the hymn books? Does anyone here know?
According to 'The Hymnal 1940 Companion' 18 of Milton's stanzas have been omitted, including
'And large-limb'd Og he did subdue
With all his over-hardy crew.' ![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
There is also:
'The ruddy waves he cleft in twain,
Of the Erythraean main. (which would be quite a tongue-twister)
The 'Companion' notes that Milton crafted this translation at age 18.
The tune given in The Hymnal 1940 and The Hymnal 1982 is 'Monkland,' which jogs along merrily.
Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
In its context, it is difficult not to conclude that it was also grandiloquent nonsense. Who now knows or cares, what the great moral issue was in December 1845, when 'to side with truth was noble'?
Um, the growing crisis over slavery in the USA and its territories, actually- the verses come from a poem called 'The Present Crisis' by the New England poet (and abolitionist) James Russell Lowell. Does this mean that we should still be singing it today? Not necessarily. Does this mean that in its context it was 'grandiloquent nonsense'? Well this was a very big question at the time and one which - even apart from the moral issues of slavery itself- would have huge consequences for the kind of country the USA was going to be. So I think I wouldn't dismiss it, in its time and context, quite so casually as Enoch seems to do.
Something which was puzzling me, was that bearing in mind there was a pending issue on which 'where to side with truth was noble', it seems a bit wilfully blind to write in those terms of a war with Mexico. Was it that well known as a moral issue even then, yet alone now? It doesn't even seem to be the one John Wayne fought in.
It may be though that this simply reveals that I don't know much about US history.
Posted by Amika (# 15785) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
<snip>
We have a lot of Salvation Army war songs too that none of you will know, but the above are all 'church' hymns.
Get a good brass band behind them and you just can't beat it.
There is no PC nonsense in The Salvation Army - no inclusive language, no stripping out the militarism.
Come and Join Us!
I spent a while attending Salvation Army Sunday School as a child and I've never forgotten my favourite Army hymn, which was not warlike at all. It was:
By the pathway of duty flows the river of God's grace...
I still sing it occasionally to this day.
Posted by vw man (# 13951) on
:
As a lot of you have writen about songs from your time as children I will join you
my favroite was "I will make you fishers of men" if my sister was a ship mate she would would put down" I am H. A. P. P. Y ,".
I wwould not dare say "i bet no one sings that any more" as some one is bound to say "we still do
Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by vw man:
My favroite was "I will make you fishers of men"
aka "I will make you vicious old men"
Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
...Something which was puzzling me, was that bearing in mind there was a pending issue on which 'where to side with truth was noble', it seems a bit wilfully blind to write in those terms of a war with Mexico. Was it that well known as a moral issue even then, yet alone now? It doesn't even seem to be the one John Wayne fought in.
It may be though that this simply reveals that I don't know much about US history.
Well, US shipmates may correct me on this, but the Mexican war (which was controversial because it was seen by opponents of the President- Polk, I think- as a war of aggression and expansion, which it was) tied up to the slavery issue because it raised the question of whether slavery would be allowed in the new territories which the USA was seeking (ulitmately successfully) to acquire. AIUI the question was whether the Missouri Compromise of 1820, which permitted slavery is territories south of I think 36'30''N, should apply to territories gained after that time, or whether slavery should be forbidden altogether/permitted altogether in them. So all these issues were very closely connected. The Civil War was really about this, not about slavery in the existing States, which no-one- at least, no-one who was in a position to do anything about it- was proposing to abolish by force in the 1850s.
Posted by Trudy Scrumptious (# 5647) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
Of course the one I'd ban is the neo-Gnostic unitarian death-worshipping noisome squamous quivering blasphemy-that-sings which is Dear Lord and Father of Mankind
We rarely sing this, but I often play it as a prelude to the service (can't remember the name of the tune as I'm not a real musician and never remember hymn tunes). Ken, I think of your rants about it every single time I play it.
Posted by cheesymarzipan (# 9442) on
:
We sing quite a lot of 'traditional'* hymns at my church, plus some more recent songs. I prefer the traditional ones as the tunes are often easier to play (and to sing
It's easy to tell when nobody knows the song as the singing gets very quiet...There are not many confident singers (and as for the musicians, anyone who lets me loose with the music has fairly low standards )
We use a projector but there are hymn books with the same words in. I think it's a programme linked with the hymn book (Mission Praise) as you can search by hymn number. I regret that we don't use the hymn numbers board! One day I'll get there early and put the numbers up ![[Two face]](graemlins/scot_twoface.gif)
Playing the music at church has improved my sight reading no end - in the middle of the sermon the other week the preacher was inspired to request
'I do not know what lies ahead'
*Not songs of praise traditional though - baptist traditional
Posted by Pine Marten (# 11068) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by georgiaboy:
quote:
Originally posted by Chamois:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
'Let us with a gladsome mind' is Milton's version of Psalm 136. The usual tune is a bit dull
I think the tune works OK if you sing it reasonably quickly. It has to bounce along and not drag. I like it as a group song - one person sings the verse lines (or everyone can take it in turns to sing a verse line) and everyone joins in the chorus lines. You can keep it together and moving with speed if everyone claps in time to the beat.
But I've always wondered, did Milton not bother to translate the "Og king of Bashan" bit and all the rest of the Israelite victories during the conquest of Canaan? Or did he translate the whole psalm but some bits have been left out of the hymn books? Does anyone here know?
According to 'The Hymnal 1940 Companion' 18 of Milton's stanzas have been omitted, including
'And large-limb'd Og he did subdue
With all his over-hardy crew.'
There is also:
'The ruddy waves he cleft in twain,
Of the Erythraean main. (which would be quite a tongue-twister)
The 'Companion' notes that Milton crafted this translation at age 18.
The tune given in The Hymnal 1940 and The Hymnal 1982 is 'Monkland,' which jogs along merrily.
The tune may jog along merrily, but it's so high-pitched that it makes my brain ache. I wouldn't mind singing about ruddy waves and large-limb'd Og, though .
And we sing There is a green hill every Holy Week (sorry, leo) and Dear Lord and Father of Mankind occasionally too (sorry, ken) .
Posted by leo (# 1458) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Garasu:
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
Of course the one I'd ban is the neo-Gnostic unitarian death-worshipping noisome squamous quivering blasphemy-that-sings which is Dear Lord and Father of Mankind
Don't hold back!
Actually. Sorry, there may be all sorts of reasons for disliking it but "neo-Gnostic unitarian death-worshipping ... blasphemy"?
Ken is quite right.
We had a very long thread devoted to this hymns a long time ago and the things that struck me were
What is “the silence of eternity"? Death?
“ordered lives confess/The beauty of Thy peace” – this is quietism – God usually speaks to us through our disorder. It’s often the only way he can get in
“Breathe through the heats of our desire” – is desire sinful? Sounds more like Buddhism. Christianity offers us the fulfilment of our desires.
“let flesh retire” is Gnostic. Christ came in the flesh to redeem the flesh
“all our strivings cease” – what, our striving for justice and peace?
‘Sabbath rest by Galilee” – it was Jesus's custom to go to the synagogue – he wasn’t one of those who say that you arte nearer to god in the garden, in nature etc.
The ‘hills above’ which are depicted as ‘calm’ is the Golan heights which was then, as now, home to freedom fighters and border skirmishes.
(It was written by a Unitarian or a Quaker – can’t remember which.)
Posted by angelica37 (# 8478) on
:
There's a few hymns from my youth (at Catholic primary school) that I haven't heard for years, 'Faith of Our Fathers' anyone?
or 'I'll sing a hymn to Mary,
the mother of my God,
the Virgin of all Virgins,
of David's royal blood'
Posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe (# 5521) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by cheesymarzipan:
We use a projector <<snip>> in the middle of the sermon the other week the preacher was inspired to request
'I do not know what lies ahead'
Perhaps the projectionist was having a problem that day projecting the right words for the hymns at hand?
[Miss Amanda will get her wrap.]
Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on
:
Leo, the poet of "Dear Lord and Father", John Greenleaf Whittier, was a Quaker. It's part of a long poem (seen that before in this thread) called "The Brewing of Soma", intended as a statement against the wildness of revivalist evangelicalism.
He really didn't like enthusiasm...
I have only now bothered to look it up. A bit of a rant, it is, and ironic how it is now used. In context, the parts you object to make more sense, I think, than being just Gnostic philosophy. Quietist you would expect, I suppose.
There's a comment page.
Here.
Posted by georgiaboy (# 11294) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by vw man:
As a lot of you have writen about songs from your time as children I will join you
my favroite was "I will make you fishers of men" if my sister was a ship mate she would would put down" I am H. A. P. P. Y ,".
I wwould not dare say "i bet no one sings that any more" as some one is bound to say "we still do
'Fishers of men' brings back memories of my Methodist Sunday School days, where we also sang 'Climb, Climb up Sunshine Mountain' (with motions) and also 'Back of the Loaf,' which I didn't understand at all, and nobody ever explained it.
For those not privileged enough to have experienced it, the opening lines were:
'Back of the loaf is the snowy flour,
Back of the flour the mill,
Back of the mill is the wheat, the sower*,
The sun, and our Father's will.'
* or it may have been 'shower'
Just a little too philosophical for pre-schoolers, don't ya think?
Posted by georgiaboy (# 11294) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
We have all the old militant hymns -
- Hark, hark my soul, what Warlike Songs are Swelling (Frederick Faber)
The SA seems to have added some militancy here. According to The Hymnal Companion, Faber's original first line is 'HHMS, angelic songs are swelling.'
(Not that angels can't be warlike -- war in heaven, and all that.)
Posted by Trudy Scrumptious (# 5647) on
:
I always think of it as a hymn about the contemplative aspect of the Christian life, which certainly isn't the whole of the Christian experience, or even the whole of any individual Christian's experience, but a needed part. I think we all need our "dear Lord and Father" moments to strengthen ourselves for our "Onward Christian soldiers" moments.
Posted by Trudy Scrumptious (# 5647) on
:
Sorry, that last post was meant to refer to "Dear Lord and Father of Mankind" ... I somehow missed that the discussion had moved on a bit since then.
Posted by Percy B (# 17238) on
:
Oh dear! I love 'Dear Lord and Father...' ah well, when will a hymn be written that everyone likes!
We're having an informal 'hymn cafe' service with some new ones and a few oldies to be remembered and maybe revived.
Some of the oldies, no longer sung with us, but suggested for revival are:
Hark, hark my soul by Fr Faber (AMR 354 Tune PILGRIMS),
Come Sinners to the Gospel Feast (Tune ABENDS Hymns and Psalms 460)
and God be with you till we meet again (Hymns and Psalms 651 Tune Vaughan Williams' (RANDOLPH)
Posted by ken (# 2460) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Percy B:
Oh dear! I love 'Dear Lord and Father...' ah well, when will a hymn be written that everyone likes!
Its not a matter of liking. I do quite like it, that's part of the problem. Because the words are mostly quite nice and the tune is lovely people sing it and don't bother that its blatantly heretical. Non-Christian, anti-Christian even. Like John Lennon's "Imagine", its a nice sentimental feel-good soppy song, but it has no place in Christian worship.
Posted by Percy B (# 17238) on
:
So that's me told! Though I know we all have our pet dislikes I know.
When I say I like it I mean I appreciate its sentiment too. Ken has made me think and I will revisit, but I do so knowing I doubt the sentiment of some hymns that many people like.
Posted by Stercus Tauri (# 16668) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by Percy B:
Oh dear! I love 'Dear Lord and Father...' ah well, when will a hymn be written that everyone likes!
Its not a matter of liking. I do quite like it, that's part of the problem. Because the words are mostly quite nice and the tune is lovely people sing it and don't bother that its blatantly heretical. Non-Christian, anti-Christian even. Like John Lennon's "Imagine", its a nice sentimental feel-good soppy song, but it has no place in Christian worship.
Oh dear. That was one of our wedding hymns, yea these 40 years ago and more. Admittedly, people have been chortling over it ever since, and it's not the first time I've been called a heretic, but I still like it.
Being simple minded can be useful at times. There's probably a banned hymn about that, too.
Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on
:
'Tis the gift to be simple, 'tis the gift to be free
(edited because we are ultra-cautious about copyright)
[ 15. June 2013, 21:55: Message edited by: Firenze ]
Posted by ken (# 2460) on
:
As Simple Gifts was written in 1848 and is well out of copyright, that's more OCD than ultra-cautious!
(Lord of the Dance is much more recent and very much in copyright)
Posted by Fineline (# 12143) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Ken is quite right.
We had a very long thread devoted to this hymns a long time ago and the things that struck me were
What is “the silence of eternity"? Death?
“ordered lives confess/The beauty of Thy peace” – this is quietism – God usually speaks to us through our disorder. It’s often the only way he can get in
“Breathe through the heats of our desire” – is desire sinful? Sounds more like Buddhism. Christianity offers us the fulfilment of our desires.
“let flesh retire” is Gnostic. Christ came in the flesh to redeem the flesh
“all our strivings cease” – what, our striving for justice and peace?
‘Sabbath rest by Galilee” – it was Jesus's custom to go to the synagogue – he wasn’t one of those who say that you arte nearer to god in the garden, in nature etc.
The ‘hills above’ which are depicted as ‘calm’ is the Golan heights which was then, as now, home to freedom fighters and border skirmishes.
(It was written by a Unitarian or a Quaker – can’t remember which.)
I have always interpreted this hymn quite differently. The silence of eternity, to me, is the stillness and peace I experience inside me when I think about God's presence and how he is eternal - it's looking at a bigger perspective than the here and now.
To me 'let flesh retire' is more about stilling all one's worldly desires and focusing on God. I don't think desire is sinful in itself, but I find it's easy to let myself be ruled by my desires, and that I need to stop and be still before God. I have always interpreted strivings as the stress inside me when I am not trusting God, and when I make my desires my focus rather than God as my focus. And I find when I am still before God, that helps me order my thoughts and my life better and know God's peace better. Of course God speaks through disorder too, but I don't think it's wrong to pray for order and peace.
Maybe I'm heretical, but to me this is a hymn that has reflected very deeply my faith. As a child I interpreted it as being about God helping me to stop and be still and know him and experience his peace, in the midst of my anger and losing my temper and getting overwhelmed. I found it very helpful.
But then I feel a lot of affinity with Quakers, and their silence. Their beliefs make a lot of sense to me and my understanding of God and the Bible. I find silence to be an important aspect of faith.
Posted by Percy B (# 17238) on
:
I agree Fineline.
I have to say though I like the 'no longer sung' aspect of this thread and the thought of reviving some hymns.
It seems to me Dear Lord and Father will be with us for along time yet
Posted by Stercus Tauri (# 16668) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
'Tis the gift to be simple, 'tis the gift to be free
(edited because we are ultra-cautious about copyright)
Ha! That was our wedding march! Then we sang it at our younger daughter's wedding two years ago. It's a lovely song.
The rendering of it in Aaron Copland's "Appalachian Spring" is particularly beautiful.
Posted by Mechtilde (# 12563) on
:
Since I've always disliked Lord of the Dance (very much in the Kumbaya zone, IMO), it was no great loss to learn that It has been criticized as anti-Semitic.
Posted by Evangeline (# 7002) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Mechtilde:
Since I've always disliked Lord of the Dance (very much in the Kumbaya zone, IMO), it was no great loss to learn that It has been criticized as anti-Semitic.
Oh what a load of rubbish. You can like or hate Lord of the Dance, but it doesn't say anything that the Gospels don't. If you ban Lord of the Dance for being antisemitic then you have to ban the Gospels too.
Posted by Mechtilde (# 12563) on
:
Sorry, but I was only made aware of this by a Jewish friend (convert to Christianity) who found it came across like a slap in the face. I'd never really thought about it before he mentioned it. Of course it's not a question of intention, as the piece I linked to makes clear; it's about not knowingly and unnecessarily giving offense. Why not just do as they advise, & ditch the offending bits? Then you can sing the silly thing to your heart's content!
Posted by Evangeline (# 7002) on
:
So do you leave the offending bits out of the Gospels? Censor the Easter readings in church? What they say about Jewish religious leaders and their role in Jesus' death is worse than the couple of lines in Lord of the Dance.
Posted by Firenze (# 619) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
As Simple Gifts was written in 1848 and is well out of copyright, that's more OCD than ultra-cautious!
(Lord of the Dance is much more recent and very much in copyright)
And there aren't even any Shakers left. But the line is and always has been Never Assume Anything.
Posted by Kaplan Corday (# 16119) on
:
Speaking of offences against PC, a song I last heard in the Sixties began:
There was a dear old darky,
Whose name was Happy Joe,
And though his face was black as soot,
His heart was white as snow.
It finished up with:
So if you're discontented,
And live a life of sin,
Only come to Jesus,
And He will take you in.
I can't remember what came between, and I can't find it online.
Posted by Rosa Winkel (# 11424) on
:
Presumably that's sung at Mudfrog's place
It's possible to dislike a song without having to be pleased to see it as being accused of being anti-semitic.
I'm pretty attuned to matters of anti-semitism myself, and understand the words to refer to the leaders, not the body of Jewish people themselves. Saying that, as any Life of Brian fan knows, it wasn't the Jewish leaders who stripped and whipped and hung him on high. I understand this to be an anti-clerical or holier-than-thou point.
Posted by Oferyas (# 14031) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
Speaking of offences against PC, a song I last heard in the Sixties began:
There was a dear old darky,
Whose name was Happy Joe,
And though his face was black as soot,
His heart was white as snow.
This is fantastic, and must be one of the world's worst hymn openings - on a par with
Within the churchyard side by side
are lots of long low graves.
More information, please!
Posted by Ariel (# 58) on
:
Always look on the bright side.
Posted by Firenze (# 619) on
:
Keep this one thing before us Lord,
As fails our darkening gaze
That Horrible Hymns their pastures have
Where the horses dead do graze.
Posted by Cara (# 16966) on
:
I too love "Dear Lord and Father of Mankind..." and I like what fineline writes about it, above.
Also Morning has Broken --Eleanor Farjeon's simple but moving words combined with the lovely tune never fail, for me.
As you might guess, Jan Struther's "Lord of all Hopefulness, Lord of all Joy" is another favourite.
In the 70s at my Catholic school, we had a modern hymn book--lots of bright orange on the cover--and sang a song from it that I've always loved: Spirit of of God in the Clear Running Water....
Ah, found it! The internet is wonderful. Perhaps some would say this hymn is a bit pantheistic, I don't know, it really spoke to me as a teenager.
Posted by Ariel (# 58) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
Keep this one thing before us Lord,
As fails our darkening gaze
That Horrible Hymns their pastures have
Where the horses dead do graze.
Excellently put. Hadn't realized we still had a thread for that.
quote:
Originally posted by Cara:
In the 70s at my Catholic school, we had a modern hymn book--lots of bright orange on the cover--and sang a song from it that I've always loved: Spirit of of God in the Clear Running Water....
Ah, found it! The internet is wonderful. Perhaps some would say this hymn is a bit pantheistic, I don't know, it really spoke to me as a teenager.
Oh yes, I remember that one - I liked that too, it always had a real "spring" feeling about it.
Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on
:
Sorry about posting in full - from memory, mark you, not copied - but I did assume that it was PD. And then had second thoughts too late. I'm not so sure about there being no more Shakers, though.
And then found it on my mind later last night when I drove past the petrol station and had to find my way back without satnav, by turning, turning, right, and then right.
[ 16. June 2013, 15:27: Message edited by: Penny S ]
Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Mechtilde:
Since I've always disliked Lord of the Dance (very much in the Kumbaya zone, IMO), it was no great loss to learn that It has been criticized as anti-Semitic.
It's not my favourite hymn but some people seem to go through life looking for opportunities to be offended.
It's very likely that Carter not making an anti-semitic comment so much as likening some modern holy people, most likely to be establishment Christians, to those of the establishment whether Jewish or Roman, who crucified Jesus. Even if that wasn't his point, it's an important one which remains pertinent through all ages. Hymn writers should be free to make it.
What's also odd is that this complaint should be made in a Friends' Magazine. I thought the Friends meet in silence and do not sing hymns.
Posted by leo (# 1458) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Fineline:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Ken is quite right.
We had a very long thread devoted to this hymns a long time ago and the things that struck me were
What is “the silence of eternity"? Death?
“ordered lives confess/The beauty of Thy peace” – this is quietism – God usually speaks to us through our disorder. It’s often the only way he can get in
“Breathe through the heats of our desire” – is desire sinful? Sounds more like Buddhism. Christianity offers us the fulfilment of our desires.
“let flesh retire” is Gnostic. Christ came in the flesh to redeem the flesh
“all our strivings cease” – what, our striving for justice and peace?
‘Sabbath rest by Galilee” – it was Jesus's custom to go to the synagogue – he wasn’t one of those who say that you arte nearer to god in the garden, in nature etc.
The ‘hills above’ which are depicted as ‘calm’ is the Golan heights which was then, as now, home to freedom fighters and border skirmishes.
(It was written by a Unitarian or a Quaker – can’t remember which.)
I have always interpreted this hymn quite differently. The silence of eternity, to me, is the stillness and peace I experience inside me when I think about God's presence and how he is eternal - it's looking at a bigger perspective than the here and now.
To me 'let flesh retire' is more about stilling all one's worldly desires and focusing on God. I don't think desire is sinful in itself, but I find it's easy to let myself be ruled by my desires, and that I need to stop and be still before God. I have always interpreted strivings as the stress inside me when I am not trusting God, and when I make my desires my focus rather than God as my focus. And I find when I am still before God, that helps me order my thoughts and my life better and know God's peace better. Of course God speaks through disorder too, but I don't think it's wrong to pray for order and peace.
Maybe I'm heretical, but to me this is a hymn that has reflected very deeply my faith. As a child I interpreted it as being about God helping me to stop and be still and know him and experience his peace, in the midst of my anger and losing my temper and getting overwhelmed. I found it very helpful.
But then I feel a lot of affinity with Quakers, and their silence. Their beliefs make a lot of sense to me and my understanding of God and the Bible. I find silence to be an important aspect of faith.
I think people interpret hymns in different ways - though we have to be careful to present them with hymns whose theology is s bad that there isn't a 'good' interpretation.
Some years back, I was discussing with the director of music in the sacristy which verses of hymns we should cut. When i suggested the verse about the 'calm of hills above...', someone present gave a very personal account of a dreadful time in his life and of how that hymn had spoken to him. So I was duly chastened and we sang all the verses.
Posted by Chapelhead (# 21) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
Always look on the bright side.
Oh, yes - I want to sing that hymn!
Posted by leo (# 1458) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Evangeline:
So do you leave the offending bits out of the Gospels? Censor the Easter readings in church? What they say about Jewish religious leaders and their role in Jesus' death is worse than the couple of lines in Lord of the Dance.
The guidance is that although we can't cut seemingly anti-Semitic bits from the gospels, we can be sensitive in the way that we preach and teach. The Second Vatican Council in Nostra Aetate said: ‘True, the Jewish authorities and those who followed their lead pressed for the death of Christ’ but this is not to place any blame on the Jewish people as such, whether in that time or thereafter. Rather the contrary, because the Council went on to say: ‘still, what happened in his passion cannot be charged against all the Jews, without distinction, then alive, nor against the Jews of today’. source.
[Edited for 'orrible code. - Ariel, Heaven Host.]
[ 16. June 2013, 16:47: Message edited by: Ariel ]
Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Chapelhead:
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
Always look on the bright side.
Oh, yes - I want to sing that hymn!
Which - "Always look on the bright side" or the one in the link?
I know which one I'd go for - but then I am one of the "Monty Python" generation.
Posted by Chapelhead (# 21) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
quote:
Originally posted by Chapelhead:
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
Always look on the bright side.
Oh, yes - I want to sing that hymn!
Which - "Always look on the bright side" or the one in the link?
I know which one I'd go for - but then I am one of the "Monty Python" generation.
The one in the link. 'Always look...' is a bit of boring old hack; the hymn linked to is glorious (well it's gloriously something).
Posted by Rosa Winkel (# 11424) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
It's not my favourite hymn but some people seem to go through life looking for opportunities to be offended.
Being sensitive about matters related to the Shoah is not "looking for opportunities to be offended".
quote:
What's also odd is that this complaint should be made in a Friends' Magazine. I thought the Friends meet in silence and do not sing hymns.
Hymns may occur, especially on retreats. (I've heard of planned singing, though that may take place once a year.)
Posted by Zacchaeus (# 14454) on
:
Funnily enough we sang Lord of the dance this morning, and as we sang it I tried to think about is as being anti Semitic but I couldn’t.
For instance this verse
I danced for the scribe and the Pharisee,
But they would not dance and they would not follow me;
I danced for the fishermen, for James and John;
They came to me and the dance went on.
talks of those who didn’t follow, the scribe and Pharisee and those who did follow, the fishermen.
Like the Holy people they are all Jewish, some followed and some didn’t. It is describing what happened and the people who ‘got’ who Jesus was and the people who didn’t. They are described by who they are within their society, they neither follow nor don’t follow, or whipped and stripped him, because they are Jewish – but because of who they themselves are.
Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on
:
Yes. No mention of the Jews as a nation or as a religion. Mention of the Holy People- that is to say, the religious authorities. Anti-semitism- like any other kind of prejudice- is a vile thing. But 'anti-semitism' (note inverted commas)- again, like other kinds of 'prejudice' - is also something which you can usually find, to your own satisfaction if no-one else's, anywhere that you are disposed to look for it.
Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on
:
Sydney Carter was a Quaker, ence the interest in a Friends magazine.
Posted by Mechtilde (# 12563) on
:
Just to clarify, FWIW (not much, I admit): I don't really have an opinion on whether LOTD is anti-Semitic or not, just noted that I'd heard it criticized as such, both in writing and in person. And that it was no great loss to me personally, because i happen to dislike the song. I do tend to think that it's best not to dismiss such claims when one is not a member of the group in question, & therefore at some risk of not "getting it." I don't see that as being held hostage to PC, though, more as basic courtesy.
Posted by Evangeline (# 7002) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Evangeline:
So do you leave the offending bits out of the Gospels? Censor the Easter readings in church? What they say about Jewish religious leaders and their role in Jesus' death is worse than the couple of lines in Lord of the Dance.
The guidance is that although we can't cut seemingly anti-Semitic bits from the gospels, we can be sensitive in the way that we preach and teach. The Second Vatican Council in Nostra Aetate said: ‘True, the Jewish authorities and those who followed their lead pressed for the death of Christ’ but this is not to place any blame on the Jewish people as such, whether in that time or thereafter. Rather the contrary, because the Council went on to say: ‘still, what happened in his passion cannot be charged against all the Jews, without distinction, then alive, nor against the Jews of today’. source.
[Edited for 'orrible code. - Ariel, Heaven Host.]
I couldn't agree more Leo and my point is that in no way does LOD charge anything against all Jews or the Jews of today. There is mention of "the scribes and the Pharisees" and "the holy people" that can't be construed to be all Jews or the Jews of today c'mon.
Posted by ken (# 2460) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Cara:
As you might guess, Jan Struther's "Lord of all Hopefulness, Lord of all Joy" is another favourite.
Unfortunately that song is now almost unsung and almost unsingable because the well-known translation of "Be Thou My Vision" completely owns the tune Slane. And, to be honest, its a far far better hymn. So if one has to go, bye-bye Mrs Anstruther. Perhaps someone could do her a favour and make a new tune for her words (though they were in fact written for Slane)
Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on
:
Not true, Ken. Lord of all hopefulness is still popular in my neck of the woods, especially for weddings (although I get the thought that if all you are is hopeful then might it not be better to delay???). Be thou my vision is, IMHO, better for nuptials.
On the other hand, LoaH is particularly apt for funerals don't you think...
Posted by North East Quine (# 13049) on
:
Lord of all hopefulness is in the current (2005) Church of Scotland hymnary. We've sung it recently.
Posted by vw man (# 13951) on
:
One hymn I have not sung in a long time ,may be be as long as ten years is
O Jesus I have promished
both tunes I like but if I had to make a choise I would go for the newer one
Posted by Amorya (# 2652) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Some years back, I was discussing with the director of music in the sacristy which verses of hymns we should cut. When i suggested the verse about the 'calm of hills above...', someone present gave a very personal account of a dreadful time in his life and of how that hymn had spoken to him. So I was duly chastened and we sang all the verses.
All the verses?
Posted by Amorya (# 2652) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by vw man:
One hymn I have not sung in a long time ,may be be as long as ten years is
O Jesus I have promished
both tunes I like but if I had to make a choise I would go for the newer one
There are at least four tunes it's commonly sung to: samples of some of them are here. I much prefer singing it to Hatherop Castle.
Amy
Posted by North East Quine (# 13049) on
:
I missed it, as I was on Sunday School duty in the hall, but our closing hymn yesterday was "Onward Christian Soldiers." We had a retired minister as stand-in, and he always chooses older hymns.
Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Amorya:
quote:
Originally posted by vw man:
One hymn I have not sung in a long time ,may be be as long as ten years is
O Jesus I have promished
both tunes I like but if I had to make a choise I would go for the newer one
There are at least four tunes it's commonly sung to: samples of some of them are here. I much prefer singing it to Hatherop Castle.
Amy
That is the one tune which our Organist detests! We usually have "Day of Gladness" or "Wolvercote".
Posted by shamwari (# 15556) on
:
What about Jean Ingelow's "And didst thou love the race that loved not thee?"
I love it.
Posted by Pine Marten (# 11068) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Amorya:
quote:
Originally posted by vw man:
One hymn I have not sung in a long time ,may be be as long as ten years is
O Jesus I have promished
both tunes I like but if I had to make a choise I would go for the newer one
There are at least four tunes it's commonly sung to: samples of some of them are here. I much prefer singing it to Hatherop Castle.
Amy
We sang it yesterday - to Wolvercote.
Posted by Pine Marten (# 11068) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by Cara:
As you might guess, Jan Struther's "Lord of all Hopefulness, Lord of all Joy" is another favourite.
Unfortunately that song is now almost unsung and almost unsingable because the well-known translation of "Be Thou My Vision" completely owns the tune Slane. And, to be honest, its a far far better hymn. So if one has to go, bye-bye Mrs Anstruther. Perhaps someone could do her a favour and make a new tune for her words (though they were in fact written for Slane)
We have sung 'Lord of all hopefulness' quite recently and I like both hymns, though I do prefer 'Be thou my vision', which we have also sung quite recently (but, er, not in the same service...)
Posted by leo (# 1458) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Amorya:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Some years back, I was discussing with the director of music in the sacristy which verses of hymns we should cut. When i suggested the verse about the 'calm of hills above...', someone present gave a very personal account of a dreadful time in his life and of how that hymn had spoken to him. So I was duly chastened and we sang all the verses.
All the verses?
All the verses in the normal hymn book.
[ 24. June 2013, 10:54: Message edited by: leo ]
Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on
:
I don't have any problems with using Slane to two different hymns - and I don't see (hear) how either could be set to a different tune. Both fit it so well.
But no more to it, please - I have a faint memory of something else, and it wasn't an original folk song with a right to it, and it wasn't poetry, either. It might, I suppose, have been a leaden footed update of Be Thou my Vision.
[ 24. June 2013, 12:04: Message edited by: Penny S ]
Posted by The Intrepid Mrs S (# 17002) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by vw man:
One hymn I have not sung in a long time ,may be be as long as ten years is
O Jesus I have promised
both tunes I like but if I had to make a choise I would go for the newer one
Gosh, we sing that ALL THE TIME. Mainly because even the Praise services have to have one traditional hymn as a minimum, and it just always seems to be that one *sigh*
Don't know the names of the tunes, but we invariably have to sing it to the one that makes you want to do knee-bends
![[Devil]](graemlins/devil.gif)
And 'Morning has broken' seems to be the default choice for weddings, along with All Things Bright etc - one reason why I couldn't possibly join the wedding choir'.
Mrs. S, basking in all the great songs from last night's service: i.e. None of the Above
Posted by Anselmina (# 3032) on
:
From my old Sunday School versionn of 'Jesus loves me, this I know':
Jesus loves the Indian boy, bow and arrow for his toy....
And then something about the cowboy rhyming with 'and lassoo'.
Another little chorus I doubt we'll hear too often again was from the same Sunday School:
I may never march with the infantry,
Ride with the cavalry, shoot with artillery;
I may never zoom o'er the enemy
'Cos I'm in the Lord's army.
Great fun, with the actions and sound effects. Did it make pacifists out of us? Friends, this was 1970's Belfast - what do you think?
Posted by Chapelhead (# 21) on
:
'Blessed assurance' is one I haven't heard in a very long time - but perhaps I just don't move in the right circles to hear it, as it is still in our hymn-books. Does it get out much?
Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on
:
Chapelhead
British Methodists sing 'Blessed Assurance' a lot. But I recently heard an elderly churchgoing Anglican say he'd never heard of it before he started to attend a Methodist-run worship group. This suggests that it's not heard much in Anglican circles. I suppose it's not high enough for the high churches, and not charismatic enough for the charismatic churches. Perhaps the only place it really belongs now is in the Methodist Church.
Posted by Chapelhead (# 21) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Perhaps the only place it really belongs now is in the Methodist Church.
Very possibly - we used to sing it a lot in my Baptist (but not charismatic) days, so I can imagine it being popular in Methodist circles.
The Anglican church I'm at now certainly isn't into blessed assurance, or (for the Rector) any assurance much at at all. The divinity of Christ, the omnipotence of God, all very un-assured.
Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
From my old Sunday School versionn of 'Jesus loves me, this I know':
Jesus loves the Indian boy, bow and arrow for his toy....
And then something about the cowboy rhyming with 'and lassoo'.
Another little chorus I doubt we'll hear too often again was from the same Sunday School:
I may never march with the infantry,
Ride with the cavalry, shoot with artillery;
I may never zoom o'er the enemy
'Cos I'm in the Lord's army.
Great fun, with the actions and sound effects. Did it make pacifists out of us? Friends, this was 1970's Belfast - what do you think?
We sang the latter in a holiday club in around 2009 at my previous (conservative evangelical Anglican) church. The holiday club was following the story of Queen Esther, but put in a Knights & Maidens theme.
Posted by georgiaboy (# 11294) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Chapelhead:
'Blessed assurance' is one I haven't heard in a very long time - but perhaps I just don't move in the right circles to hear it, as it is still in our hymn-books. Does it get out much?
'Blessed Assurance' was part of my Methodist growing-up, sang it a lot, though as a child I didn't understand 'foretaste of glory'.
Hadn't heard it for years until I went to a party where the host demonstrated one of his party pieces, which was playing 'Blessed Assurance' interspersed line by line with strains of 'Jesu Joy of Man's Desiring'. Great fun!
Posted by georgiaboy (# 11294) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
From my old Sunday School versionn of 'Jesus loves me, this I know':
Jesus loves the Indian boy, bow and arrow for his toy....
And then something about the cowboy rhyming with 'and lassoo'.
Other versions remembered from seminary:
'JWHW loves me this I know,
J,D,E,P tell me so
(don't remember the rest)
amd
Buddha loves me this I know,
For my prayer wheel tells me so.
Little ones to him we go,
We are weak, but he is (wait for it!) BRONZE!
Posted by leo (# 1458) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Chapelhead:
'Blessed assurance' is one I haven't heard in a very long time - but perhaps I just don't move in the right circles to hear it, as it is still in our hymn-books. Does it get out much?
'Jesus is MINE' is too individualistic for Anglicans and RCs.
Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
'Jesus is MINE' is too individualistic for Anglicans and RCs.
I can see why, but an entire congregation singing together 'Jesus is OURS' would manage to be triumphalist and sectarian at the same time.
Posted by ken (# 2460) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Chapelhead:
'Blessed assurance' is one I haven't heard in a very long time - but perhaps I just don't move in the right circles to hear it, as it is still in our hymn-books. Does it get out much?
Occasionally sung in our CofE church. Not often - twice in the last three years according to the rather incomplete records I've been keeping.
But it must have a hard core of support somewhere in the Church of England because they put it in Eucharistic Prayer D Or at least strongly alluded to it.
Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
Another little chorus I doubt we'll hear too often again was from the same Sunday School:
I may never march with the infantry,
Ride with the cavalry, shoot with artillery;
I may never zoom o'er the enemy
'Cos I'm in the Lord's army.
We sang the latter in a holiday club in around 2009 at my previous (conservative evangelical Anglican) church. The holiday club was following the story of Queen Esther, but put in a Knights & Maidens theme.
Did you sing "When a knight won his spurs", too?
Posted by Matariki (# 14380) on
:
One hymn I remember from school assembly was "God of concrete, God of steel." I haven't heard it sung in church for years though with the withering away of a lot of industry and our recent concern about our impact on the environment I guess it sounds very dated.
Though there is a disconnect in some modern hymnody, here in New Zealand there have been a lot of hymns written which celebrate the landscape of the country (and why not, it is a beautiful place.)Yet we are an overwhelmingly urban country and that is barely hinted at in New Zealand hymn writing or liturgical composition.
[ 25. June 2013, 18:24: Message edited by: Matariki ]
Posted by Fr Weber (# 13472) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Chapelhead:
'Blessed assurance' is one I haven't heard in a very long time - but perhaps I just don't move in the right circles to hear it, as it is still in our hymn-books. Does it get out much?
'Jesus is MINE' is too individualistic for Anglicans and RCs.
It's also theologically suspect for RCs, since the Council of Trent anathematized the doctrine of the assurance of salvation.
Posted by Anselmina (# 3032) on
:
Perhaps the Anglican bunches I've been fraternizing with in Ireland are a little atypical, but Blessed Assurance will crop up now and again, Will your Anchor Hold pretty often, Thine be the Glory, Onward Christian Soldiers, Stand up, Stand up for Jesus, Trust and Obey.
What I would consider the old-fashioned kind of hymns.
Safe in the Arms of Jesus and Shall we gather at the river are almost compulsory at funerals!
And yet in former CofE parishes these would appear rarely if ever.
For a few years now, I have been missing singing anything to Abbotsleigh, which seems to be an unknown tune here (despite being in the hymn book).
Posted by Angloid (# 159) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by Chapelhead:
'Blessed assurance' is one I haven't heard in a very long time - but perhaps I just don't move in the right circles to hear it, as it is still in our hymn-books. Does it get out much?
Occasionally sung in our CofE church. Not often - twice in the last three years according to the rather incomplete records I've been keeping.
But it must have a hard core of support somewhere in the Church of England because they put it in Eucharistic Prayer D Or at least strongly alluded to it.
Check Crockfords for the places where +James Jones of Liverpool has served and you should find your answer.
Posted by Jante (# 9163) on
:
Sand Blessed Assurance this last Sunday in our small rural middle of the road C of E
First snag it in a Baptist church 40 years ago but then our Anglican church at the time sang very Hymns Ancient not modern!
Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Chapelhead:
The Anglican church I'm at now certainly isn't into blessed assurance, or (for the Rector) any assurance much at at all. The divinity of Christ, the omnipotence of God, all very un-assured.
I just wanted to say that I hope things improve in the spiritual life of your church.
Posted by Avila (# 15541) on
:
Blessed Assurance is a regular for me - one of the useful stock of hymns to take to small chapels when you don't know their repertoire and they may struggle with the unknown.
Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on
:
I suspect the churches that sing "Blessed Assurance" et al are older style evangelical in ethos (evangelical before there were charismatics). They sing revivalist camp meeting songs rather than Anglican Victorian hymns.
Jengie
Posted by Chamois (# 16204) on
:
Originally posted by Jengie John:
quote:
I suspect the churches that sing "Blessed Assurance" et al are older style evangelical in ethos (evangelical before there were charismatics). They sing revivalist camp meeting songs rather than Anglican Victorian hymns.
Not so. My church is MOTR CofE and we sing "Blessed Assurance" quite often.
We haven't got an organist or anyone prepared to play the piano, so we do the karaoke thing with pre-recorded hymn music from a set of CDs. I suspect the choice of hymns is strongly influenced by what's on the CDs.
Posted by Kaplan Corday (# 16119) on
:
God Be With You Till We Meet Again was mentioned somewhere upthread.
It used to be sung by crowds gathered at the dock to farewell missionaries as their ship pulled out.
In the context of missionaries intending to serve overseas for life, with only infrequent furloughs, and without the present possibility of jumping on a plane and being home within twenty-four hours, it was intensely moving.
Posted by Pine Marten (# 11068) on
:
We used to sing that to the school leavers at the end of year service. We being teenage girls there was quite a lot of emotional weeping.
Posted by leo (# 1458) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
'Jesus is MINE' is too individualistic for Anglicans and RCs.
I can see why, but an entire congregation singing together 'Jesus is OURS' would manage to be triumphalist and sectarian at the same time.
So best not sing the doggerel at all.
Posted by leo (# 1458) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by Chapelhead:
'Blessed assurance' is one I haven't heard in a very long time - but perhaps I just don't move in the right circles to hear it, as it is still in our hymn-books. Does it get out much?
Occasionally sung in our CofE church. Not often - twice in the last three years according to the rather incomplete records I've been keeping.
But it must have a hard core of support somewhere in the Church of England because they put it in Eucharistic Prayer D Or at least strongly alluded to it.
Before now, I hadn't linked that hymn with its chorus. Still don't like it.
Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Chamois:
Originally posted by Jengie John:
quote:
I suspect the churches that sing "Blessed Assurance" et al are older style evangelical in ethos (evangelical before there were charismatics). They sing revivalist camp meeting songs rather than Anglican Victorian hymns.
Not so. My church is MOTR CofE and we sing "Blessed Assurance" quite often.
Yeah but what were you fifty years ago?
Jengie
Posted by ken (# 2460) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Before now, I hadn't linked that hymn with its chorus. Still don't like it.
I think its rather wonderful
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
Yeah but what were you fifty years ago?
In our case, the first church Billy Graham ever preached in in Britain - which rather fits your hypothesis!
Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on
:
The hypothesis was based on observation of URC Congregations and what hymnody they sung. There is not a huge difference in the age of hymns, we do not get one church singing Metrical Psalms while another sings modern choruses.
However they do tend to go for genres. My basic hypothesis is is a congregation was exposed to a genre at the time of its popularity then that genre keeps going to some extent through successive generations.
What is important is some congregations do sing the Revivalist Camp Songs/Moody and Sankey/Golden Bells and other congregations stick to the more formal hymns of the era.
Jengie
Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
God Be With You Till We Meet Again was mentioned somewhere upthread.
It used to be sung by crowds gathered at the dock to farewell missionaries as their ship pulled out.
I always think of it as a funeral hymn.
Posted by Moo (# 107) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
God Be With You Till We Meet Again was mentioned somewhere upthread.
It used to be sung by crowds gathered at the dock to farewell missionaries as their ship pulled out.
I always think of it as a funeral hymn.
We used to sing it at the end of every choir practice.
Moo
Posted by A.Pilgrim (# 15044) on
:
In addition to the hymns mentioned in my previous post, I haven't heard There's a light upon the mountains for decades, which I remember singing at the Methodist Church that my parents took me to as a child. Nowadays I find the words a little suspect (over-realised eschatology anyone?) but I still love the tune (the second one listed on Cyberhymnal, though I didn't know it by the name of Mt Holyoke) - so much harmonic interest in it, unlike many stodgy hymn tunes or three-chord-trick worship songs.
And I sang Blessed assurance a few weeks ago at the Baptist Church that I've been attending recently, for the first time ever (I think).
Angus
Posted by listener (# 15770) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
I may never march with the infantry,
Ride with the cavalry, shoot with artillery;
I may never zoom o'er the enemy
'Cos I'm in the Lord's army.
]
In my youth the third line was a patriotic
"Some folks have to fly over Germany",
later changed to "fly over land and sea"
Posted by ken (# 2460) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
My basic hypothesis is is a congregation was exposed to a genre at the time of its popularity then that genre keeps going to some extent through successive generations.
Yep. In our case that most strongly shows in the generation my age - or to be honest slightly older than my age, maybe the 60-somethings - beign strongly attached to 1970s and 1980s charismatic-lite "choruses", especially of a mildly Restorationist/March-for-Jesus sort, and some of the John Wimber stuff. Part of that's geography. South London (where I live now) and Brighton (my home town) were pretty much the hotspots of that sort of thing about thirty years ago. The same people also tend to got for the Iona and Taize stuff. It makes for a lot of rather wimpish, soppy, dull singing as far as I am concerned. Something a bit more hymn-like - or a bit more camp-meeting-like - gives you a chance to open your mouth and "sing lustily".
quote:
What is important is some congregations do sing the Revivalist Camp Songs/Moody and Sankey/Golden Bells and other congregations stick to the more formal hymns of the era.
And yes again, though that would be most popular among the generation one older than the 60-somethings, now increasingly promoted to glory. When I first turned up at the church I am at now, in 1990, there was still a cupboard full of Golden Bells and a few copies of Sacred Songs and Solos at the back of the church. Hardly ever, if ever, used. The same was true of the church in Brighton I first started attending when I was converted, back in the 1970s. And the Congregational Church I used to got to for Boy's Brigade meetings before that. So I had thirty or forty years of churches with dusty cupboards with disused copies of Golden Bells!
In fact I can't remember what hymn book we actually used in church in 1990. Might have been a mixture of A&M and another one - what was that small-format thick book with a plain bright red cover? I think we might still have some copies of it.
We moved to Mission Praise a year or two later when the combined words-only edition came out. And then to Songs of Fellowship about ten years after that. Which exactly fits this story because Mission Praise itself originated with the Billy Graham missions but was later extended by some Anglicans to include both traditional hymns and some of the new charismatic choruses, so it was a sort of compromise betweeen the three styles; and Songs of Fluffiness comes from the other end - it starts from the New Frontiers style of Charismatic/Evangelical/Reformed/Restorationist worship and includes some older stuff as a wauy of reaching out towards the more traditional congregations. (Whether "reaching out" in fellowship, or evangelistically, or commercially, is left as an excercise for the reader)
Posted by mark_in_manchester (# 15978) on
:
My kids (8 and 5) like to join me at the harmonium and
quote:
"sing lustily".
I'd like to think they're amongst the youngest kids around to like 'tell me the old, old story'. Though that really means amongst the last to love it, which seems sadder.
They're old enough to know we're wierd, but not old enough to mind. Yet.
Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by mark_in_manchester:
My kids (8 and 5) like to join me at the harmonium and
quote:
"sing lustily".
I'd like to think they're amongst the youngest kids around to like 'tell me the old, old story'. Though that really means amongst the last to love it, which seems sadder.
They're old enough to know we're wierd, but not old enough to mind. Yet.
I thought me and mine were weird, but you've out-weirded me there.
Posted by Chamois (# 16204) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
quote:
Originally posted by Chamois:
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
I suspect the churches that sing "Blessed Assurance" et al are older style evangelical in ethos (evangelical before there were charismatics). They sing revivalist camp meeting songs rather than Anglican Victorian hymns.
Not so. My church is MOTR CofE and we sing "Blessed Assurance" quite often.
Yeah but what were you fifty years ago?
Jengie
Me, personally? Six years old.
Fifty years ago the church I now attend was high church CofE. It's definitely moved down the candle since the 60s, although we still use the icon of our patron saint and its stand for votive candles and have a side chapel with a statue of Our Lady. The holy water stoup is no longer in use.
Posted by Mudfrog (# 8116) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Rosa Winkel:
Presumably that's sung at Mudfrog's place
It's possible to dislike a song without having to be pleased to see it as being accused of being anti-semitic.
I'm pretty attuned to matters of anti-semitism myself, and understand the words to refer to the leaders, not the body of Jewish people themselves. Saying that, as any Life of Brian fan knows, it wasn't the Jewish leaders who stripped and whipped and hung him on high. I understand this to be an anti-clerical or holier-than-thou point.
Sorry, I wasn't listening...
...what's sung at Mudfrog's place? I really must pay attention...
Posted by Mudfrog (# 8116) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
I suspect the churches that sing "Blessed Assurance" et al are older style evangelical in ethos (evangelical before there were charismatics). They sing revivalist camp meeting songs rather than Anglican Victorian hymns.
Jengie
That'll be us then
Posted by Campbellite (# 1202) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
As Simple Gifts was written in 1848 and is well out of copyright, that's more OCD than ultra-cautious!
(Lord of the Dance is much more recent and very much in copyright)
And there aren't even any Shakers left. But the line is and always has been Never Assume Anything.
As of 2010, there were still three living Shakers.
Sabbathday Lake
Posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe (# 5521) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
As Simple Gifts was written in 1848 and is well out of copyright, that's more OCD than ultra-cautious!
It appears as no. 554 in the Hymnal 1982, and Aaron Copland included it in his Old American Songs, Set 1, so I wouldn't assume that no one currently holds copyright.
Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on
:
The author, elder Joseph Brackett, died in 1882. The words I used were his. Later arrangements of the music and words could have acquired additional copyright. (It looks as though some people have their own versions.) I can't see how the original words could have done. I first met them in a book "Faith, Hope and Clarity" published by Galliard in the late 1960's, where both words and tune were identified as anonymous. Obviously wrong.
Michael Flatley ran into trouble with Sydney Carter over his use of the Lord of the Dance version and title. (Hubris twice, not only Jesus, but also Shiva.)
Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
... In fact I can't remember what hymn book we actually used in church in 1990. Might have been a mixture of A&M and another one - what was that small-format thick book with a plain bright red cover? I think we might still have some copies of it. ...
That might have been Anglican Hymn Book.
Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on
:
Church Hymnary 3?
An odd choice for an Anglican if it was.
Jengie
Posted by Angloid (# 159) on
:
I was at a very old-style anglo-catholic High Mass this morning (eastward facing, sung collects and gospel, the works) which finished with 'O Lord all the world belongs to you' (Patrick Appleford IIRC) I've not sung that since about 1970. The tune conjured up a smoky nightclub (well, we had the smoke, but not much else) circa 1934. There is a nearby church furnished in that style, but not this one which is full-on Victoriana. A most strange contrast, but not inappropriate.
Posted by Mudfrog (# 8116) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
I don't have any problems with using Slane to two different hymns - and I don't see (hear) how either could be set to a different tune. Both fit it so well.
But no more to it, please - I have a faint memory of something else, and it wasn't an original folk song with a right to it, and it wasn't poetry, either. It might, I suppose, have been a leaden footed update of Be Thou my Vision.
HERE is a nice one.
We have it in our song book, along with LOAH and BTMV - though the BTMV is the updated arrangement with the strong rythmn.
Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on
:
I think that is it - I must have only sung it once, but it looks familiar. Not leaden footed at all, but a sort of reference to LOAH, which is why I couldn't separate it out.
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