quote:

---

Max who said Morning Prayer with some Anglicans according to Common Worship Daily Prayer today and prefers the Catholic Divine Office!

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quote:

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Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:
Fewer psalms? Disputes about peoples commemorated somewhat in the manner of RC saints, but not? Not enough anthems of our Lady?

[sorry, to clarify, those are speculative reasons for Max's preferences - not necessarily my own, although I'm in some sympathy with all of them!]

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I'd add one of my own: CW's reticence to pray for the departed.
 

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Posted by LQ (# 11596) on :
 
Having used both Anglican and Roman Catholic systems of the Divine Office (I'm currently on a bit of a vacation), I find the lack of systematic reading of Scripture in the LOTH quite impoverishing. I'm much happier with the BCP and additional material.
 

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Posted by Swick (# 8773) on :
 
I've used LOTH and Benedictine Prayer a few times for variety, but don't really care too much for the style of English used.
 

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Posted by Max. (# 5846) on :
 
Common Worship Daily Prayer is.....

Complicated
In the Divine Office, the readings for the day are just there, one doesn't have a list that one has to consult in order to find out the readings which one then has to look up in a bible.

Too Long
The readings are too long, the Psalms are too long, there are too many readings and there are too many psalms and there are too many prayers.
We do Morning Prayer in about 15 minutes in our college, it took 50 minutes this morning in this small group in an evangelical Anglican Church in the deepest Mendip Hills.

Why?
Does it mess up the "Glory be..." which is shortened ending?
Everybody knows that the real Glory be goes:
"Glory be to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit, as it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end" and there is only one acceptable variation and that's the one they use at Worth Abbey which is:
"Praise the Father, the Son and Holy Spirit both now and forever, the God who is, who was and is to come at the end of the ages"


Max.
 

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Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Max.:
The readings are too long, the Psalms are too long, there are too many readings and there are too many psalms and there are too many prayers. We do Morning Prayer in about 15 minutes in our college, it took 50 minutes this morning in this small group in an evangelical Anglican Church in the deepest Mendip Hills.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Max.:
Common Worship Daily Prayer is.....

---

quote:

---

Complicated
In the Divine Office, the readings for the day are just there, one doesn't have a list that one has to consult in order to find out the readings which one then has to look up in a bible.

---

quote:

---

Too Long
The readings are too long, the Psalms are too long, there are too many readings and there are too many psalms and there are too many prayers.
We do Morning Prayer in about 15 minutes in our college, it took 50 minutes this morning in this small group in an evangelical Anglican Church in the deepest Mendip Hills.

---

quote:

---

Why?
Does it mess up the "Glory be..." which is shortened ending?
Everybody knows that the real Glory be goes:
"Glory be to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit, as it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end" and there is only one acceptable variation and that's the one they use at Worth Abbey which is:
"Praise the Father, the Son and Holy Spirit both now and forever, the God who is, who was and is to come at the end of the ages"


Max.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by uffda:
Here in the States, some Lutherans use "For Al the Saints." Ecumenical, 3 scripture lessons, one reading from the wider Church throughout time. Not bad, everything in one book. Anyone else use it?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Oblatus:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Max.:
The readings are too long, the Psalms are too long, there are too many readings and there are too many psalms and there are too many prayers. We do Morning Prayer in about 15 minutes in our college, it took 50 minutes this morning in this small group in an evangelical Anglican Church in the deepest Mendip Hills.

---

I don't know what lectionary and psalm schedule the Mendip Hills people were using, but CW Morning Prayer using the standard ones should take only 20 minutes, maybe 30 with lots of silences and maybe hymns.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by uffda:
Martin L. wrote:

"but I have made the mental switchover to NRSV, and I don't care to backtrack to the RSV again."


I know what you mean, but to me the ecumenical 4th reading has really given me food for prayerful thought over the years. Plus the size of the book makes for easy mobility.

De gustibus non est disputandam!

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quote:

---

Originally posted by chiltern_hundred:


Incidentally, I was in Blackwells in Oxford yesterday looking around in the religion section and found a book of the Roman Lauds and Vespers in Latin and English (called, surprisingly enough 'Lauds and Vespers) and made the interesting discovery, on comparing it with the 'official' Daily Office on the same shelf, that the English translation was completely different. How can this be?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by chiltern_hundred:
I have never used CW:DP, but can well believe that, like the BCP, it becomes impossible to use unless you have a Bible with you. I dare say it was intended to be used in chapels rather than by people like me who perforce say the office in odd places as and when.

I have for some months been using Celebrating Common Prayer, whose English is vastly better than the Roman Office but whose structure makes it bit tedious outside the green seasons - virtually the same service every day between All Saints Day and Advent, yawn yawn.

---

Using CW:DP without a Bible and lectionary is very possible, which is what I carry on planes and ships, etc. There are plenty of lessons printed in the Prayer During the Day section and you can use one of those for the office. Or even two. Or p'raps one of the canticles as a lesson, if one isn't too anal about these things.

I agree about Celebrating Common Prayer and its repetitiveness. CW:DP is CCP's grown child and they bear a family resemblance. CW:DP has a couple more canticles on offer as options, but though the English used in CW:DP is more uplifting than the RC Divine Office, the DO has much, much better intercessions. Common Worship seasonal intercessions grown dull after two or three days.

Common Worship is a very model of modern major offices. The next overhaul needs to look at the translation of the Psalms, ridding the world of the ubiquitous iniquitous WHO for God, (O God who ) unnatural in English in 1549 and in 2008 the only thing I'll be sure to change in the collects.
 

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Posted by chiltern_hundred (# 13659) on :
 
Mama Thomas scripsit: "I agree about Celebrating Common Prayer and its repetitiveness. CW:DP is CCP's grown child and they bear a family resemblance. CW:DP has a couple more canticles on offer as options, but though the English used in CW:DP is more uplifting than the RC Divine Office, the DO has much, much better intercessions. Common Worship seasonal intercessions grown dull after two or three days."

Might be an idea to combine the two, then. Could get fiddly, juggling books on a train or plane ...
 

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Posted by Thurible (# 3206) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Max.:
Oh come on it was Isaiah 40:1-14 and Revelation/Apocalypse 14:1-end of the world!

That's long! If it was Morning Prayer according to the Divine Office (we're on week 2 now) it would've been Jeremiah 15:16!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Thurible:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Max.:
Oh come on it was Isaiah 40:1-14 and Revelation/Apocalypse 14:1-end of the world!

That's long! If it was Morning Prayer according to the Divine Office (we're on week 2 now) it would've been Jeremiah 15:16!

---

You're not comparing like with like, though: how long were the readings in the Office of Readings?

Thurible

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quote:

---

Originally posted by ken:
So to get to 50 minutes just because of long readings you would need really long readings. Thirty to forty minutes of readings. Revelation 14 doesn't cut it. You could read from there to the end of the book and then some!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by ken:
There must have been something else going on for it to take 50 minutes!

The fixed parts of Common Worship Daily Prayer take about 10 minutes to read aloud, 15 with pregnant pauses. Its shorter than the BCP Morning and Evening Prayer and you can get through them with readings but without hymns or sermon in 15 minutes. Said slowly and reverently with chanting and with a long psalm any one of those offices might take maybe twenty-five to thirty minutes. As is proved week after week on the BBC and almost every Anglican cathedral in the land. (Rushed through with silent readings you could do them in ten)

So to get to 50 minutes just because of long readings you would need really long readings. Thirty to forty minutes of readings. Revelation 14 doesn't cut it. You could read from there to the end of the book and then some!

I think something else must have been going on and I think Max knows what it is! We demand the truth! There wasn't a sermon was there Max? Inquiring minds want to know!

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Max.:
No sermon, there was about 2 minutes of quiet reflection time after each reading, but the longest time actually was spend flicking through the books and trying to find the readings from the grids.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Oblatus:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Max.:
No sermon, there was about 2 minutes of quiet reflection time after each reading, but the longest time actually was spend flicking through the books and trying to find the readings from the grids.

---

It's a good practice to mark these before the service, of course.

---

quote:

---

Curiosity killed...
but why not mark up before you start?

---

Indeed, I enjoy those precious preparation minutes...time to unwind and focus before the office. There's nothing more satisfying than having it all ready to go. It takes me six or seven markers* to manage some breviaries, but I pray a smooth office once everything is set up.


*Not counting the fixed markers I keep for First Vespers, just in case!
 

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Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 
6 or 7 markers? Well as we have 30 or 35 minutes that means Max's mates were taking 5 minutes a time.

So has it come to this, that a group of theologians and ordination candidates take FIVE MINUTES to find each reading in the Bible????

The youth of today!
 

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Posted by Spiffy (# 5267) on :
 
Post-it notes, Max. Live 'em, love 'em.
 

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Posted by Thurible (# 3206) on :
 
Two questions/topics for discussion:

i) First Evening Prayer in Common Worship

Does it not happen? Not having a breviary or CW+Hunwicke+Bible+Hymnal to hand on Saturday evening, I logged onto the online version of CW:DP to say First Vespers of Advent II and was confronted by Evening Prayer of St Nicholas. What's that about?

I confess my ignorance to do with most things modern Anglican office related but I'd have thought, given the various other 'high churchisms' in CW, they'd have had First Evening Prayer. I wouldn't put any money on it but I think that Durham Cathedral kept Saturday evening as a vigil of the Sunday. Was this them being naughty?

ii) Lectionaries

As I'm going to Mass less often than I was before, I'm looking to use rather more scripture in the office than the Breviary offers.

The problem is that CW:DP/BCP + Hunwicke + Bible + English Hymnal is a bit much to stick in my pocket/cart around in my bag so am looking for a one volume thingy.

Bede's American Successor pointed me in the direction of tECUSA's one volume edition a while back but that looks a bit pricey.

Canterbury Press have reissued the 1928 BCP with the 1922 lections in - but I assume they're in the Authorised/Revised Version and I can't see me managing to stay awake with that.

What other options are there?

Also, is it important to use a 'living' lectionary? Would it make sense for an English Anglican to use an American lectionary (and, yes, I do think it makes sense for an English Anglican to use the Catholic lectionary before anyone starts!)? Is the American lectionary, in fact, different to the English one?

Opinions, views, etc., sought.

Thurible

[ 08. December 2008, 12:04: Message edited by: Thurible ]
 

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Posted by Vaticanchic (# 13869) on :
 
Well, the website calendar's automated, obviously, and not taking account of which day of the week it is.

Another thread pointed me towards the New Catholic Bible, which has tables for daily mass readings and the Breviary readings, could be useful for you.
 

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Posted by Brian M (# 11865) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Thurible:
As I'm going to Mass less often than I was before, I'm looking to use rather more scripture in the office than the Breviary offers.

The problem is that CW:DP/BCP + Hunwicke + Bible + English Hymnal is a bit much to stick in my pocket/cart around in my bag so am looking for a one volume thingy.

---

quote:

---

I'm not mistaken, the 1979 BCP [includes Vespers].

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Thurible:

i) First Evening Prayer in Common Worship

Does it not happen? Not having a breviary or CW+Hunwicke+Bible+Hymnal to hand on Saturday evening, I logged onto the online version of CW:DP to say First Vespers of Advent II and was confronted by Evening Prayer of St Nicholas. What's that about?

I confess my ignorance to do with most things modern Anglican office related but I'd have thought, given the various other 'high churchisms' in CW, they'd have had First Evening Prayer. I wouldn't put any money on it but I think that Durham Cathedral kept Saturday evening as a vigil of the Sunday. Was this them being naughty?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Brian M:

quote:

---

I'm not mistaken, the 1979 BCP [includes Vespers].

---

I think you may be. According to Dr. Hatchett (joke writes self here) the editors of the '79 felt that I Vespers generally included lections that did little to illuminate the saint or feast being observed, and further waylaid the supposed lectio continua offered by the '79 office lectionary.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Thurible:
Two questions/topics for discussion:

i) First Evening Prayer in Common Worship

Does it not happen? Not having a breviary or CW+Hunwicke+Bible+Hymnal to hand on Saturday evening, I logged onto the online version of CW:DP to say First Vespers of Advent II and was confronted by Evening Prayer of St Nicholas. What's that about?

I confess my ignorance to do with most things modern Anglican office related but I'd have thought, given the various other 'high churchisms' in CW, they'd have had First Evening Prayer. I wouldn't put any money on it but I think that Durham Cathedral kept Saturday evening as a vigil of the Sunday. Was this them being naughty?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Thurible:
Universalis has daily propers - and I assume they're up to date.Thurible

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Angloid:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Thurible:
Two questions/topics for discussion:

i) First Evening Prayer in Common Worship

Does it not happen? Not having a breviary or CW+Hunwicke+Bible+Hymnal to hand on Saturday evening, I logged onto the online version of CW:DP to say First Vespers of Advent II and was confronted by Evening Prayer of St Nicholas. What's that about?

I confess my ignorance to do with most things modern Anglican office related but I'd have thought, given the various other 'high churchisms' in CW, they'd have had First Evening Prayer. I wouldn't put any money on it but I think that Durham Cathedral kept Saturday evening as a vigil of the Sunday. Was this them being naughty?

---

It's the website that's wrong. CW:DP says (p 106) 'At Evening Prayer on Saturday the Collect, canticles and refrains for the Sunday following are used (except where the Saturday itself is a Principal Feast or Festival*, Christmas Eve or Easter Eve).'

*St Nicholas is not a 'Festival' according to the CW Calendar.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Thurible:
I could, of course, use a Read Through The Bible in a Year schema to avoid cutting things out but this wouldn't tie in with the calendar I was using - and I wouldn't be reading the same lections as anyone else praying the Office.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by New Yorker:
Slightly off topic. I use Christian Prayer. It does not have some of the new feasts, such as Juan Diego for 9 December. Are the propers for this feast online anywhere?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by T.B.Cherubim:
My 1956 reprint of the Monastic Diurnal does not have this peculiarity. Perhaps it was a very unusual OUP mistake?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by cg:

quote:

---

Originally posted by T.B.Cherubim:
My 1956 reprint of the Monastic Diurnal does not have this peculiarity. Perhaps it was a very unusual OUP mistake?

---

Thanks for checking. Mine was printed in wartime, after all.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Prosfonesis:
This isn't Kerygmania with its requirements, but may I ask if this is the verse? Sustain me according to your promise, that I may live. and let me not be disappointed in my hope.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by cg:
However, the LA press edition was (I think) produced as a facsimile of the first OUP edition (1932) so it's likely that it dates back to then and is not a wartime slip after all.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Brian M:
The LAP edition is a resetting of the 1963 OOP edition. Note the second set of rubrics in the front, which implement the 1960s reforms to the use of the Breviarium.[/QB]

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by chiltern_hundred:
Spiffy, you mean

[url=http://www.episcopalcafe.com/daily/church_year/sapientiatide_the_great_o_anti.php ]link[/url]

(web address corrected, but I don't do UBB code yet)

---

Erm, yes. You will all be pleased to know that my bifocals will be ready on St. Stephen's Day, so that the characters on the screen will actually resemble letters instead of pretty grey blobs.

quote:

---

Originally posted by New Yorker:
What? Everyone is still using printed materials for the Daily Office? Why not iBreviary?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by New Yorker:
What? Everyone is still using printed materials for the Daily Office? Why not iBreviary?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by chiltern_hundred:
Spiffy, you mean

http://www.episcopalcafe.com/daily/church_year/sapientiatide_the_great_o_anti.php

(web address corrected, but I don't do UBB code yet)

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by New Yorker:
What? Everyone is still using printed materials for the Daily Office? Why not iBreviary?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by New Yorker:
What? Everyone is still using printed materials for the Daily Office? Why not iBreviary?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Pancho:
I'll share the propers given in the Latin American edition of the Liturgy of the Hours

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by scribbler:
I just got ibreviary today for my new iPhone. Very wonderful for the price. Sure, it is not a substitute for the romance and resonance of a book, but the app was ideal for praying vespers while waiting for "Frost/Nixon" to start. Where were the dead trees then?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by New Yorker:

quote:

---

Originally posted by scribbler:
I just got ibreviary today for my new iPhone. Very wonderful for the price. Sure, it is not a substitute for the romance and resonance of a book, but the app was ideal for praying vespers while waiting for "Frost/Nixon" to start. Where were the dead trees then?

---

Is it available in English? If so, from whom?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by cg:
Using the books allows me to bow, stand or kneel as appropriate, pause for reflection, and so forth, and generally feel that I making the prayer my own.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Angloid:
[pedantic tangent] The writer of the article is incorrect in saying that the O Antiphons are not included in any official Anglican liturgy. ( Maybe he meant 'in the USA' ). Common Worship: Daily Prayer of the C OF E prints them, beginning with O Sapientia on 17 December in line with modern RC practice. [/pedantic tangent]

---

Hmm--didn't know that. In which case I would have said something like "hasn't appeared in any official Anglican liturgy until the current English Common Worship" or some such. The point is that the date occurs in the kalendar, but the antiphons are absent from the books--until now.

Correction duly noted...

[Edit: code]

[ 31. December 2008, 10:08: Message edited by: Hart ]
 

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Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on :
 
The O Antiphons are in Celebrating Common Prayer too. It was pretty much official use in Salisbury in the 90s.
 

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Posted by the Ænglican (# 12496) on :
 
Well--that just goes to show that I need to read up on the English materials post 1928...

Thanks for the further correction!
 

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Posted by Mockingbird (# 5818) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Angloid:

quote:

---

Originally posted by chiltern_hundred:
Spiffy, you mean

http://www.episcopalcafe.com/daily/church_year/sapientiatide_the_great_o_anti.php

---

The writer of the article is incorrect in saying that the O Antiphons are not included in any official Anglican liturgy. ( Maybe he meant 'in the USA' ). Common Worship: Daily Prayer of the C OF E prints them, beginning with O Sapientia on 17 December in line with modern RC practice.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by cg:
At least those of us who pray the Office can celebrate Epiphany on the right day, even if none of our local churches do. But can anyone explain to me a quirk of the Epiphany monastic Office that has been puzzling me. Both the Matins and Vespers hymn Hostis Herodes impie, and the antiphons for the Benedictus and the Magnificat in the Lauds and II Vespers respectively of the Epiphany (in the Monastic Diurnal) seem to be celebrating the Epiphany in combination with the Baptism of Jesus and with the miracle at Cana. Was there once a tradition that that all three feasts were jointly celebrated?

---

More accurately - the Epiphany consists of three thematically linked aspects. The Adoration of the Magi, the Baptism of Christ and the Miracle at Cana. In these three ways, Christ was revealed as Messiah before all the Nations, in preparation for His earthly ministry.

Because of its proximity to Christmas, the arrival of the Magi at the Christ-Child is the part which has been most emphasised in the Western Church for some centuries now. The Baptism has been moved onto a Feast of its own whilst the first Miracle forms the Gospel reading of the Sunday following. However, historically all three were part of the same Feast and there are still many refernces to this lurking around, especially in older works.

Does this help?

 

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Posted by cg (# 14332) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:
historically all three were part of the same Feast and there are still many refernces to this lurking around, especially in older works.

Does this help?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the Ænglican:
The medieval Golden Legend also states that in addition to the preceding three it was the day on which Christ fed the five thousand, citing Bede. (I'm wary of this--it's not in his Epiphany sermons that I know of but I haven't checked his commentaries...)

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:
What is an Office Hymn? Is it included in this book? If not, where do you find it? How do you choose it?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:
Matins from Saint Dunstan's Plainsong Psalter (Lancelot Andrewes Press, 2002), page 145:

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:
Saint Dunstan's says: "As with all Gospel canticles, the intonation to the tone is sung throughout the canticle, at the beginning of each verse." (e.g. § 14, page 236; § 19, page 238.) Why?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:
St. Dunstan's gives more info in §17, "The Office Hymn," pages 237-238. In addition to the English Hymnal and 1940 Hymnal, it cites Saint Ambrose Hymnal and Hymns Ancient And Modern as sources for most or some of them. However it misses Mama Thomas' wonderful citation of Anglican Breviary for all of them.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:
I wonder what the Saint Ambrose Hymnal is.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by TubaMirum:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:
Saint Dunstan's says: "As with all Gospel canticles, the intonation to the tone is sung throughout the canticle, at the beginning of each verse." (e.g. § 14, page 236; § 19, page 238.) Why?

---

Good question! It says here that it's "for the sake of solemnity."

And that makes sense, to me: the Gospel Canticles are important, and sort of the centerpiece of each Office - so they get more emphasis, and this is a good way to do it.

I do wonder how old this custom is, though....

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Hart:
You know that the hymn suggestions in LOTH are just that: suggestions? If you don't like them (and some of them are terrible... 44 anyone?), just use another hymnal, or don't sing a hymn. In private use, I only sing a hymn on Sundays or Solemnities. In communal celebrations, we always sing a hymn, but we don't always take it from the book.

---

Some of the hymns in LOTH suck, and some really suck! Being the sort of guy who does the usual Anglo-Catholic mish-mash I use the BCP for MP and EP and LOTH for Office of Readings, Midday Prayer, and Compline. In the case of OOR I have a card with the traditional Matins hymns on it to substitute for the appointed hymns. As I usually say OOR fairly early in the day using the old Matins hymns works OK.

I do wish someone would overhaul LOTH, restoring the traditional hymns at least as alternatives to the present random selections. Some of the 1960s stuff in there is at best blah and at worse barf. The early 1970s was not a good time to be overhauling the liturgy and it is to be hoped that the translation of the Divine Office made them will soon be replaced by something in line with the new translation of the Mass that we are told is coming shortly.

PD
 

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Posted by scribbler (# 12268) on :
 
Thank you for the information. To make matters worse, I usually just say the hymns aloud since I can't carry a tune in a bucket; this just accentuates it. I think I'll consider just omitting them as advised. Part of my problem is lack of consistency: switching between the 1928 BCP (with various lectionaries and supplements) and the RCC office, sprinkled with generous periods of nothing, does not a healthy practice make.

Why am I afraid of Daily Office commitment?
 

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Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by scribbler:
Thank you for the information. To make matters worse, I usually just say the hymns aloud since I can't carry a tune in a bucket; this just accentuates it. I think I'll consider just omitting them as advised. Part of my problem is lack of consistency: switching between the 1928 BCP (with various lectionaries and supplements) and the RCC office, sprinkled with generous periods of nothing, does not a healthy practice make.

Why am I afraid of Daily Office commitment?

---

quote:

---

This hymnal, for communities that celebrate the daily office, is a collection of 316 hymns prepared by a committee of poets, liturgists, and musicians from various religious communities of women and men under the chairmanship of Andrew D. Ciferni, O. Praem. This is a collection of carefully edited hymns for morning, evening, and general use throughout the entire church year. One hardcover edition contains all harmonies and accompaniments.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Pancho:
Does anyone have experience using this from GIA?

Hymnal for the Hours

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Antiphon:
Is anyone familiar with the three-volume work Les Heures Gregoriennes in Latin and French which has recently been published by the Community of St Martin? This consists of all the hours of the LOH except the Office of Readings set to Gregorian chant.

I have just received my set this morning. I will post my impressions of it later.

---

I've heard excellent reviews of it but can't justify spending the amount necessary to obtain it. Very expensive; may be worth it, but there are other spending priorities, unfortunately.
 

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Posted by Antiphon (# 14779) on :
 
I've just prayed Vespers in Latin for Wednesday of the seventh week of Easter using the relevant volume of Les Heures Gregoriennes.

They are certainly a handsome set of volumes, but after I began to pray the Office I realised that the psalm antiphons for today were different from those in the standard Liturgia Horarum. I do not know if those in Les Heures Gegoriennes are from a later revision of the LH or if they were selected by the Community of St Martin as being more suitable for singing.

I experimented by reciting the Latin psalms, responsories and collect from Les Heures Gregoriennes but using the red Lauds and Vespers book published by Scepter for the hymn and antiphons in Latin and the short reading and intercessions in English.

This was an interesting way of doing the Office but did involve a lot of book juggling, as is discussed in another thread!


Tomorrow evening I will use Les Heures Gregoriennes for Vespers in French, as unlike the ordinary secular Liturgie des Heures which I also have, it has French translations of the Latin office hymns rather than contemporary French hymns.
 

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Posted by Clavus (# 9427) on :
 
There was a discussion about this in the Yahoo Gregorian group. It seems that Rome has a) produced the new Liturgia Horarum with lots of new antiphons; b) said that the use of Gregorian chant is to be encouraged; and c) said that no new chants are to be written, and only the chants in the histroic repetoire are to be used. It seems that the idea of 'joined-up government' is not known in the Vatican. So Les Heures Gregoriennes is the work of many months of antiquarian research at Solesmes to find old antiphons once associated with the day or psalm, since there is no traditional chant for the new antiphon. In Eastertide, most of the daily antihons are just permutations of Alleluias. It's all very disappointing. There was an attempt by Holger Peter Sandhofe to adapt traditional chants to the new words, but he died before completing this work (no Eastertide or Sanctoral), and even what he did finish has been taken down from the site www.nocturnal.de where it formerly appeared.
 

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Posted by Antiphon (# 14779) on :
 
Yes, I noticed that the antiphons given in Les Heures Gregoriennes for yesterday's Vespers seemed to consist mainly of alleluias.

I certainly do not regret my purchase of the set, as they are handsome and useful books, but it is possible that I may use them mainly for praying the office in French, as I feel they are superior to the standard Liturgie des Heures for this purpose.

I think they would really come into their own for singing the Latin office; unfortunately I cannot sing the office in any language as I cannot read music or chant notation. However, I would also be pleased to use them for reading the Latin office if supplemented by other books for the antiphons etc.

I also have a copy of the 1961 Brevarium Romanum which was published last year by Nova et Vetera. This is also a handsome publication, and at the moment I use it mainly for Vespers on Sundays and major festivals, as suggested by Fr Hunwicke on his blog.

It seems as though the Baronius Press Latin/English breviary in three volumes will finally be published this year according to their website. At some point I may also obtain a set of the current Liturgia Horarum from Pax Books; the set I currently have is a second-hand one dating from 1974.
 

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Posted by Antiphon (# 14779) on :
 
I would also say that although I am currently using the 1961 Breviary for Sunday Vespers, I am slightly naughty and Liturgia Horarum-ise it in the following ways:-

1) I always follow the modern Roman calendar using the current dates for certain feasts

2) I read the chapter in English, often using the translations provided in the Baronius Press 1962 Daily Missal for Sunday Vespers

3) I say the Pater Noster audibly, as in the LOH

4) I only ever use one collect as in the LOH, ie no commemorations.


Purists would no doubt frown at these innovations but that's what I do! I feel they are perhaps within the spirit of the latest Motu Proprio concerning the 1962 Missal, which allows the traditional readings in the vernacular without having to repeat them in Latin.
 

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Posted by lily pad (# 11456) on :
 
Uh oh, so when I sing them without having a clue about the tune, am I doing something wrong?
 

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Posted by Antiphon (# 14779) on :
 
Not at all. Unfortunately I am a very poor singer and have a terrible voice! On a recent pilgrimage to Rome the priest who was accompanying us asked me not to sing so loudly at Mass as he found it distracting! Apparently my attempt to sing the Salve Regina at the conclusion of Mass without the Latin text was particularly bad!

That is why I prefer to say the office rather than to sing it. Somehow, I do not think I would fit well into any monastic community where the office is sung daily!
 

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Posted by cg (# 14332) on :
 
Antiphon, I'm in the same boat as regards singing inability. But I'm now a novice oblate of a small Anglican Benedictine community which sings (in English) Lauds, Vespers, Compline and - on Sundays and feast days - Mattins, using books derived from the Sarum use. The other offices are said. So I'm trying to pick up the rudiments of chant and Gregorian notation. This site should be helpful. It is, however, focussing on the monastic offices not the LoH.
 

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Posted by DitzySpike (# 1540) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Oblatus:
... but I then got a copy of Hymns for Prayer and Praise, which I found a much better resource: better structured with guidance for choosing appropriate hymns, nicely noted with two tunes per hymn text: a plainchant one and a metrical one.

---

quote:

---

The new closeness between Solesmes and St. Peters will intensify later this year when Solesmes releases an in-print version of the first volume of the Antiphonale for the Liturgy of the Hours, which will then be used in published form for Vespers at the Vatican.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Antiphon:
I took the confirmation name Maximilian in honour of St Maximilian Kolbe when I was recieved into the RC Church, so today I attended mass and also prayed the Office of Readings for the saint.

I used the the ICEL edition of the Liturgy of the Hours, which includes a supplementary booklet containing the propers of recently-introduced feasts, including the memorial of St Maximilian Kolbe. I noticed that a proper Magnificat antiphon was provided for Evening Prayer for the saint, but wondered when it would be used, as on the evening of August 14th one should pray First Vespers of the Assumption.

As suggested, it could possibly be used for First Vespers on August 13th in churches dedicated to St Maximilian Kolbe if his feast is observed as a Solemnity.

Incidently, I do not think that such a supplementary booklet is also available for use with the UK edition of the Divine Office, although I could be wrong.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Pancho:
I don't know if anyone else noticed it but buried in this interview is some possible good news.

quote:

---

The new closeness between Solesmes and St. Peters will intensify later this year when Solesmes releases an in-print version of the first volume of the Antiphonale for the Liturgy of the Hours, which will then be used in published form for Vespers at the Vatican.

---

So maybe we'll see some more music for the Liturgy of the Hours before the year's end.

---

quote:

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by St.Silas the carter:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Pancho:
I don't know if anyone else noticed it but buried in this interview is some possible good news.

quote:

---

The new closeness between Solesmes and St. Peters will intensify later this year when Solesmes releases an in-print version of the first volume of the Antiphonale for the Liturgy of the Hours, which will then be used in published form for Vespers at the Vatican.

---

So maybe we'll see some more music for the Liturgy of the Hours before the year's end.

---

Hopefully! I'm beginning to tire of writing/adapting my own chants every time I want to sing the office!

---

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Antiphon:
I already have the three-volume edition of the current Antiphonale Monasticum. I think I obtained two volumes from a specialist supplier and one directly from Solesmes using the buy online facility on their website.

I would have to say that I am not that keen on the flexible plastic covers which I do not think would stand up very well to frequent use; I would have preferred hard covers similar to those used for the Gregorian Missal, the Graduale Romanum and the Liber Hymnarius, even if this increased the price slightly.

I also have Les Heures Gregoriennes published by the Community of St Martin, which is the current Liturgy of the Hours except the Office of Readings set to chant in both Latin and French. This also comprises three volumes and I understand that it was prepared in conjunction with Solesmes. I also understand that the psalm antiphons were specially prepared for singing and are not always the same as those found in the four-volume Liturgia Horarum.

Will the forthcoming Antiphonale from Solemes which will be used at St Peters therefore have the same or similar material as Les Heures Gregoriennes?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clavus:
Yes, it is the £100 question! We have been waiting a very long time for an Antiphonal for the modern secular (not monastic) Office. I had hoped that Les Heures Gregoriennes (HG) would be the answer, but a great many of the psalm antiphons are different from those for appointed for Lauds and Vespers in the Liturgia Horarum (LH).

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Antiphon:
What forms of office are other people using at the moment? I wonder how many of you are messing around with as many books as I am at the moment!

---

• OT lesson at Terce
• Middle lesson (Epistle, Acts, or whatever) at Sext
• Gospel lesson at Vespers

quote:

---

Originally posted by Antiphon:
What forms of office are other people using at the moment? I wonder how many of you are messing around with as many books as I am at the moment!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by dkpintar:
thanks to all for the information; especially "antiphon".

it's a big help.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Antiphon:
......................I would say that the set is well worth waiting for. Another good reason for having it is that I believe the Latin text of the psalms is the revised one from the latest edition of Liturgia Horarum published in 2000. I only have a second-hand set dating from 1974, which has the earlier text and does not have the variable gospel antiphons for years A, B and C.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by dkpintar:
Newman House Press publishes Lauds and Vespers; in English and Latin, edited by Rev Peter Stravinskas. It contains the variable gopsel antiphons that you mention.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by cg:
. . . I also find a 'hymn' that begins 'Blessed art thou, O Lord God of our fathers' (does anyone know where that comes from?).

---

I believe that is the canticle Benedictus es, Domine, also known as the "Song of the Three Young Men" and is said to be based on the "fiery furnace" passage in Daniel 3. This canticle is also used in Morning Prayer in the U.S. BCP (page 49).
 

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Posted by Adeodatus (# 4992) on :
 
Well, folks, it's that time of the year again. Week 24 of the Roman Divine Office. The beginning of reading through St Augustine's sermon on the Shepherds.

For those unacquainted with this pearl of devotional literature, Augustine decided it would be a good idea to spend a very long sermon calling the clergy all the worthless, miserable scoundrels he could lay his tongue to. And then some. And in the Office of Readings, we spend the whole of the next two weeks reading through it. (It's a very long sermon.) Not content with his dismal subject matter, Augustine decides on a policy of "if it's worth saying once, it's worth saying ten times." Good move, Aggie.

The bottom line is, it's a fortnight to avoid the Office of Readings. So, in a spirit of ecumenical helpfulness here are some saints' days from the Roman and CofE calendars that you can celebrate in preference to ploughing through Augustine's bons mots.

Today - Holy Cross Day
15 Sept. - Our Lady of Sorrows; St Cyprian (CofE)
16 Sept. - Ss. Cornelius & Cyprian (Roman); St Ninian; Edward Bouverie Pusey
17 Sept. - St Robert Bellarmine; St Hildegard
18 Sept. - None, I'm afraid, and Augustine's just getting into his stride.
19 Sept. - St Januarius; St Theodore
20 Sept. - Sunday. Not much we can do about that.
21 Sept. - St Matthew
22 Sept. - None
23 Sept. - An Ember Day in the CofE. Hurrah for ordinands!
24 Sept. - None. Oh dear.
25 Sept. - Lancelot Andrewes; Sergei of Radonezh; Ember Day
26 Sept. - Ss. Cosmas and Damian; Wilson Carlile; Ember Day

And then the Office of Readings returns to the relative sanity of the letter of St Polycarp to the Philippians. So I make that four days out of fourteen where we can't avoid Augustine. Not a bad year.
 

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Posted by Manipled Mutineer (# 11514) on :
 
Could some kind person tell me, in the preces which are to be said in the breviary offices of Lauds and Vespers on certain ferial occasions (the Ember days in this instance), what is the correct form to substitute for the versicle "Domine, salvum fac regem/O Lord, save the King", for those of us over whom HM Queen Elizabeth is gloriously reigning?
 

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Posted by Brian M (# 11865) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Manipled Mutineer:
Could some kind person tell me, in the preces which are to be said in the breviary offices of Lauds and Vespers on certain ferial occasions (the Ember days in this instance), what is the correct form to substitute for the versicle "Domine, salvum fac regem/O Lord, save the King", for those of us over whom HM Queen Elizabeth is gloriously reigning?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Manipled Mutineer:
Thank you, Brian M - as I like to say the office in Latin, a Latin rendering of "O Lord, save the Queen" will do nicely, if anyone could favour me...

---

quote:

---

23 Sept. - An Ember Day in the CofE.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Antiphon:
Oblatus, the supplementary booklet used by the Canons Regular of St John Cantius for the LOH sounds interesting. Have they produced this booklet themselves? I have often thought that it would be a good idea if a publisher such as Vatican Press or Midwest Theological Forum was to produce a booklet containing all the Latin office hymns from the Liturgia Horarum which could then be used with the vernacular office in any language.

---

Yes, they produce it themselves for their own use. I've only seen it and haven't got a copy. They do one for the Advent/Christmas LotH volume, one for the Lent/Easter volume, and one covering both Ordinary Time volumes. On Marian festivals and perhaps some other holy days, there seems to be a last-minute distribution of a folded sheet with the necessary hymn and responsory.
 

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Posted by Martin L (# 11804) on :
 
*bump*

Popping into Holy Name Cathedral in Chicago, I found out that they pray Evening Prayer before their 5:15 Mass. I didn't have a breviary, since none were offered to me, but I noticed later where they were kept for people to help themselves. It sounded to be totally by-the-book.

One thing that made me a bit wistful was the fact that I was able to join in with the Magnificat because it used the common text that I know already. I am saddened by the fact that the days of common texts will be coming to an end soon.
 

---

Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Martin L:
Popping into Holy Name Cathedral in Chicago, I found out that they pray Evening Prayer before their 5:15 Mass. I didn't have a breviary, since none were offered to me, but I noticed later where they were kept for people to help themselves. It sounded to be totally by-the-book.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by scribbler:
Since the new RC missal is on the way, does anyone know if a new translation of the Liturgy of the Hours/Christian Prayer is in the offing? I like to occasionally use Christian Prayer and love the format, but find some of the translations (not to mention the illustrations!) a bit cheesy.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Oblatus:
Great! I think this is fairly recent; perhaps just since the reopening after all the fire repairs? Just noticed it in the bulletin:

“Vespers,” from The Liturgy of the Hours~5:00pm,
Monday~Friday. In the Cathedral

---

quote:

---

Were the provided breviaries copies of Shorter Christian Prayer? That's what I've seen most in RC places where books are provided.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Martin L:
The praying of the office made me think that somebody at Holy Name has popped by a certain Anglo-Catholic place in Chicago.

---

quote:

---

I didn't get a chance to look. The books were on a wheeled cart, and I forgot to look. From a distance, I'd say they were smaller in size than a typical hymnal, black, and about as thick as a pew edition BCP79.

---

My first guess would be that these are Christian Prayer in the Daughters of St Paul edition; perhaps they bought a supply from the Pauline bookshop on Michigan Avenue. I'll definitely check on this. BTW, yes, they use the Worship III hymnal. Glad they haven't given in to the newsprint annual tossables.


[Code fix. Mamacita, host]

[ 16. October 2009, 04:13: Message edited by: Mamacita ]
 

---

Posted by scribbler (# 12268) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Oblatus:
...Catholic Book Publishing, home of the World's Ugliest Books.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Antiphon:
It has just been announced on the New Liturgical Movement website that a new English edition of the LOH has just been published for use in Africa, which corresponds to the latest edition of the Latin Liturgia Horarum.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by RCD:
I don't suppose anyone knows whether it can be purchased through any Pauline outlet or has to be ordered direct from Africa? I tried emailing the local Pauline bookstore and all my emails bounced.

Edit: by "it" I mean the new African LOTH

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by dkpintar:
i've sent off an e-mail/order to the paulines in africa. if i have to transfer bank funds, i'll do it. when i get a response from them, i'll let people here know.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Oblatus:

quote:

---

Originally posted by dkpintar:
i've sent off an e-mail/order to the paulines in africa. if i have to transfer bank funds, i'll do it. when i get a response from them, i'll let people here know.

---

Thank you...hope one of us hears something this week. I've e-mailed our Pauline sisters here in Chicago and got no bounce message but no reply either. I may have to visit the shop and ask in person! I have a feeling they won't know, but maybe there's a sister in residence who keeps up on such things.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by dkpintar:
I receieved my response from the pauline sisters [here in the UK], an invoice which i am paying today. but i think you have to use the email-order form on the site and that goes to nairobi kenya first. then they send it on the to appropriate place.

---

i recieved an e-mail from the pauline sisters saying my books are in the mail .

i shall review them here for everyone when i get them.
 

---

Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by dkpintar:
i recieved an e-mail from the pauline sisters saying my books are in the mail .

i shall review them here for everyone when i get them.

---

Looking forward to the news! Will help me decide whether to place an order. And wondering how this edition got to be done with the Revised Grail when publication of the Revised Grail by itself seems not yet to have been authorized.
 

---

Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by dkpintar:
i recieved an e-mail from the pauline sisters saying my books are in the mail .

i shall review them here for everyone when i get them.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Antiphon:
Please tell us more!

Does it have translations of the classic Office Hymns?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by DitzySpike:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Oblatus:
... but I then got a copy of Hymns for Prayer and Praise, which I found a much better resource: better structured with guidance for choosing appropriate hymns, nicely noted with two tunes per hymn text: a plainchant one and a metrical one.

---

If you can still get your hands on Hymns for Prayer and Praise, you should. The editors have a very clear idea of what they want: both language and music are straightforward and simple you are trained to pay attention to the drama of the text. Like the defunct ICEL psalter, you either love or loathe the austerity.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by dkpintar:
New hymns; acknowledgement for these is on 2 pages in back of book. Too much to mention here.

Some Latin hymns as 'options'; Latin text of Te Deum", Benedictus, Magnificat and Nunc Dimmittus

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Antiphon:
In view of its contents, I could see myself obtaining a set of the new African edition of the LOH after the New Year. I think I would obtain it in preference to the forthcoming Latin/English edition of the 1961 Breviary by Baronius Press, as I would probably find the African LOH of greater use; I already have the Anglican Breviary and the all-Latin edition of the 1961 breviary published by Nova et Vetera last year.

I will enquire at my nearest branch of St Paul Multimedia to see whether they could obtain it for me. Possibly it may eventually be available for purchase online from one supplier or another.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by DitzySpike:
I have not seen Fr Hartzell's book but I get a sense that it draws its extras from the Sarum antiphoner. It seems, from current material in St Bede's, the same source is used here. The core of this office, however, is based on the 79 Prayer book. Hartzell meets Galley.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by DitzySpike:
The texts are singable too. They are the same translation used and published by the Wantage sisters.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Martin L:
*bump*

Is the martyrology read daily by religious orders of today?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by DitzySpike:
Could it be this ?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by chiltern_hundred:
"The Anglican Catholic Church of Canada has a magnificent new Liturgy of the Hours which contains the Prayer Book Office together with the Lesser Hours and some other material. Of readily manageable dimensions, it includes the readings, antiphons and all the office hymns (from the ACC "Ancient Office Hymn Book"). There are two volumes, the first of which -- Advent to Quinquagesima -- is now available, with the second volume to follow. It is very "user-friendly" and well laid out. In addition, there is a single-volume abridged edition available."

Does anyone have any further information about this?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Eddy:
I'd like to try a simple daily office which also used some readings and poetry and wasnt too long and had pauses in it. Varied but not complicated.

Ideas, guys?

HAPPY NEW YEAR , guys.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Martin L:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Eddy:
I'd like to try a simple daily office which also used some readings and poetry and wasnt too long and had pauses in it. Varied but not complicated.

Ideas, guys?

HAPPY NEW YEAR , guys.

---

The poetry bit will probably thwart us while searching. For now, check out Phyllis Tickle's
The Divine Hours, a series of several seasonal books. They follow a familiar office ordo, but are made to be prayed in a short burst of time. The pauses would be up to you. It's something to check out for now, anyway.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Martin L:
All right, Oblatus, I didn't miss your mention of Holy Name and its daily office. I'm curious...what did you think (and did you find the breviaries?!)

---

Sorry...my mention of praying an Office at Holy Name meant I went to a pew and prayed it on my own (with my BCP/NRSV office book). I haven't visited for Holy Name's daily Office yet, but thanks for the reminder!
 

---

Posted by DitzySpike (# 1540) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Eddy:
I'd like to try a simple daily office which also used some readings and poetry and wasnt too long and had pauses in it. Varied but not complicated.

HAPPY NEW YEAR , guys.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Eddy:
I've been looking at the Tickle books and not quite getting it.

Do they come as a series or is the Advent thru Epiphany different from Wintertime / Springtime.

I mean which volumes make up a set?

I see there is a childrens version too - anyone know if that works?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Think²:
December & January happen in winter don't they ?

---

On only half the planet.
 

---

Posted by Martin L (# 11804) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Oblatus:
Sorry...my mention of praying an Office at Holy Name meant I went to a pew and prayed it on my own (with my BCP/NRSV office book). I haven't visited for Holy Name's daily Office yet, but thanks for the reminder!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Oblatus:

quote:

---

Originally posted by chiltern_hundred:
"The Anglican Catholic Church of Canada has a magnificent new Liturgy of the Hours which contains the Prayer Book Office together with the Lesser Hours and some other material. Of readily manageable dimensions, it includes the readings, antiphons and all the office hymns (from the ACC "Ancient Office Hymn Book"). There are two volumes, the first of which -- Advent to Quinquagesima -- is now available, with the second volume to follow. It is very "user-friendly" and well laid out. In addition, there is a single-volume abridged edition available."

Does anyone have any further information about this?

---

I believe this is the abridged one-volume edition mentioned.

---

I've purchased a hardcover copy of the book from the link above and have been using it for a few days. It's very well done and can be used with a Bible for an enriched eightfold office based on the 1959/62 Canadian BCP, but compatible with the USA 1928 BCP and possibly the 1662 BCP. Its aim is similar to that of The English Office, but I think this new An Anglican Catholic Liturgy of the Hours: Abridged Edition does it more successfully. Good typography and layout; very sturdy binding. A few typos, but those few I've seen so far are very minor.

I should add that I don't represent the editor or publisher of the book in any way; just bought the book and thought I'd tell you it's good.
 

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Posted by cg (# 14332) on :
 
Interesting. What does it use for Matins readings?

For a noted alternative (with Coverdale psalms and KJV chapters etc.) you might have to wait for the English translation of the Sarum breviary currently in hand by Dr William Renwick, in parallel with his Latin edition already being made available here.
 

---

Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by cg:
Interesting. What does it use for Matins readings?

For a noted alternative (with Coverdale psalms and KJV chapters etc.) you might have to wait for the English translation of the Sarum breviary currently in hand by Dr William Renwick, in parallel with his Latin edition already being made available here.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by cg:
Ah, thanks for explaining that. I was assuming the "Office in the Night" was an equivalent of the Office of Readings/Vigils/Matins (in the older parlance) with some patristic material as well as scriptural readings.

---

• Scripture Sentence
• Preces
• Hymn: Nocte surgentes
• Ps. 57 with antiphon
• Lesson: Mk. 13:35-37
• Collect
• Conclusion

quote:

---

Originally posted by Pancho:
I don't know if anyone else noticed it but buried in this interview is some possible good news.

quote:

---

The new closeness between Solesmes and St. Peters will intensify later this year when Solesmes releases an in-print version of the first volume of the Antiphonale for the Liturgy of the Hours, which will then be used in published form for Vespers at the Vatican.

---

So maybe we'll see some more music for the Liturgy of the Hours before the year's end.

---

quote:

---

Dear Sir

the Vesperal for Sundays and feats according Lituriga Horarum will be available in Solesmes editions next wek.
For Laud you will have to be patient.
Sincerely
Daniel Saulnier

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by St.Silas the carter:
Speaking of the Liturgy of the Hours, does anyone know what kind of differences there are between the Antiphonale Monasticum and the Liturgia Horarum?
So far, I've been adapting the antiphons on my own ( Example )And I'm thinking about investing in one or two volumes of the AM.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Pancho:
p.s. I should note the message said "Sundays and feasts", not weekdays so people will still have to piece the chant for weekday modern Vespers (in Latin) on their own. Still, this is good news and practical for use in a cathedral or parish setting.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by dkpintar:

quote:

---

Originally posted by St.Silas the carter:
Speaking of the Liturgy of the Hours, does anyone know what kind of differences there are between the Antiphonale Monasticum and the Liturgia Horarum?
So far, I've been adapting the antiphons on my own ( Example )And I'm thinking about investing in one or two volumes of the AM.

---

Antiphonale Monasticum uses the one-week Benedictine schema of psalms, although they do have a book which extends it to four (if I remember correctly). I have all three volumes of the AM. .

Which antiphons do you need??

---

I'm covered so far for all the offices of the year except for lauds of the first-fifth Sundays of lent and lauds and vespers of Easter Sunday.

The Sarum chant looks extremely interesting, and I've bookmarked it. Unfortunately, Acrobat has decided that he doesn't want to work today so I can't see the Dominican chant.

Thanks you everyone for your help!


 

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Posted by BenjaminS (# 13224) on :
 
I would love to learn how to chant some of the office on my own. I'm mostly using Common Worship: Daily Prayer, but I also use the US BCP 79 sometimes. Any advice to a total chant newbie on how to get started (I can read music, if that's helpful)?
 

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Posted by Thurible (# 3206) on :
 
There is a CW psalter which is either pointed or set to chant which I pointed out to Adeodatus ages and ages ago. I'll try and find it.

Thurible
 

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Posted by Thurible (# 3206) on :
 
Quicker than I thought - Music for Common Worship V: Psalter with Chants here.

Thurible
 

---

Posted by Swick (# 8773) on :
 
The Psalter of the 1979 BCP is available from Church Publishing pointed for Plainsong/Gregorian chant, at Plainsong link and pointe for Anglican chant at Plainsong link both are $40.00 which is on the expensive side. I own the Plainsong Psalter, which also provided seaonal antiphons for the pslams; I assume the Anglican chant version doese as well.

[Code fix. Mamacita, Host]

[ 19. January 2010, 15:13: Message edited by: Mamacita ]
 

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Posted by Mamacita (# 3659) on :
 
Swick, when posting a link, please insert a website name or short descriptor when the UBB screen gives you the second prompt, rather than just repeating all the code a second time. It will make the post easier to read. There's a UBB practice thread in the Styx if you want to experiment. Thanks!

Mamacita, Eccles Host
 

---

Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swick:
The Psalter of the 1979 BCP is available from Church Publishing pointed for Plainsong/Gregorian chant, at Plainsong link and pointe for Anglican chant at Plainsong link both are $40.00 which is on the expensive side. I own the Plainsong Psalter, which also provided seaonal antiphons for the pslams; I assume the Anglican chant version doese as well.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Michael Astley:
For any who may be interested, there is a project underway for the online publication of scans of the liturgical material of the St Gregory's Press, (primarily the Benedictine hours).

Unfortunately, the scanned files are much larger than they need to be, making downloading and sending the files to others really more arduous than necessary. Yet the material is extremely useful, and is the most user-friendly form of the office that I have seen, due particularly to all of the music actually being there, and I'm grateful for their efforts. All of the music is there, as are the rubrics, and the psalms and canticles are meticulously pointed, making for ease of chanting. Aside from anything else, they use the Holy Transfiguration translation, which is my personal favourite. Perhaps putting the different volumes into some sort of presenation folder for home use would be the best way of going about it.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Oblatus:
This is wonderful, Michael. Thank you for letting us know. I have a hard copy of the ferial book for the Office throughout the week, and just going through a day's worth of the Office is highly educational...all the detailed rubrics about how things are done line up with much traditional Benedictine practice.

I see what you mean about the file sizes. Everything appears to be scanned; I wonder whether anyone has the original electronic files available to make PDFs from them, which I think would produce smaller files. I could be wrong.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Michael Astley:
That would make it much better, wouldn't it? All they need is a PDF virtual printer and it should be much less time-consuming for them in addition to producing smaller files. I'll try to contact them and see what can be done. I think I'd go slowly mad if I had to scan all of those pages.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Oblatus:
Converting the native (Word?) files to PDF would also produce very sharp, straight pages, of course.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Michael Astley:
Yes. Although it was apparently created with something called Multi-lingual Scholar. I'm in occasional contact with one of theirn deacons who is quite prolific on the internet. He's also quite tech savvy so I'll make my suggestions to him and see where, if anywhere, we go.

---

Not that I'm complaining. On the contrary, I've often considered buying the volumes (but too expensive) and am thrilled they're becoming available online. Beautiful work.
 

---

Posted by Bran Stark (# 15252) on :
 
Do any parts of the Anglican Communion still require their clergy to recite the Office daily?
 

---

Posted by Thurible (# 3206) on :
 
The Church of England certainly does. Morning and Evening Prayer each day.

Thurible
 

---

Posted by PD (# 12436) on :
 
My shack is Anglican, but non-Communion. However, following the example of the C of E we still require the Office to be read.

+PD
 

---

Posted by St.Silas the carter (# 12867) on :
 
The Antiphonale Romnum Is finally here! Wow, they got it done is such a short time.It's only been- how many years since Vatican II?

I would like to know if it contains the offices of the triduum, or whether those will be in a future volume, but I suspect that I won't find that out till I get my hands on the volume myself.
 

---

Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by St.Silas the carter:
I would like to know if it contains the offices of the triduum, or whether those will be in a future volume, but I suspect that I won't find that out till I get my hands on the volume myself.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Antiphon:
It will be interesting to see if the new Solesmes Antiphonale Romanum has the same psalm antiphons as does the Latin/French three-volume Heures Gregoriennes published by the Community of St Martin. These are often different from those in the current Liturgia Horarum, apparently because the Vatican has insisted that only traditional Gregorian melodies may be used for singing the current Liturgy of the Hours in Latin, which cannot always be adapted to the more recent antiphons in LH.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Spiffy:
Procedural question. If you're going to Holy Eucharist on Sunday morning, should you say MP before or after, or not at all?

---

I don't know about "should", but I would generally say MP before a Eucharist, finding the prayer time beneficial when preparing to receive.
 

---

Posted by dj_ordinaire (# 4643) on :
 
I think the idea is that you say it beforehand (I think when 'full' sets of Offices were said in religious communities, the Eucharist came quite late, after Prime or Terce or something). I'd like to say that I was able to do this but it can be a hassle time-wise and it's already afternoon afterwards!
 

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Posted by DitzySpike (# 1540) on :
 
Hello all. If you haven't discovered this gem yet, you should . The Wantage sisters at the Covent of St Mary the Virgin stream their Divine Office here on real time. I've heard their Vespers (past my midnight) - fine example of English plainchant!
 

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Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Spiffy:
Procedural question. If you're going to Holy Eucharist on Sunday morning, should you say MP before or after, or not at all?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Oblatus:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Spiffy:
Procedural question. If you're going to Holy Eucharist on Sunday morning, should you say MP before or after, or not at all?

---

You can pray MP any time in the morning, really, but traditionally it's before Mass (our parish has MP before the first Mass daily).

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Spiffy:
Yeah, 'cept with my Sunday schedule (roll out of bed, go, "OH SHOOT! I GOTTA GET TO CHURCH!", do church, get corralled by the hipsters to go to brunch) I usually don't get home until after noon, that's why I was wondering.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Oblatus:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Spiffy:
Yeah, 'cept with my Sunday schedule (roll out of bed, go, "OH SHOOT! I GOTTA GET TO CHURCH!", do church, get corralled by the hipsters to go to brunch) I usually don't get home until after noon, that's why I was wondering.

---

Oh, I can relate, and sometimes don't get to MP at all, or pray it sometime in the afternoon, perhaps concatenated with Evening Prayer (use the EP rite but pray both the MP and EP psalms, read all three lessons).

---

Likewise - 'Morning Prayer' often turns into 'muttering a few relevant Psalms and the Benedictus to myself as I shower and dash around the house looking for ties/keys/espresso. The thought that counts?

 

---

Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Oblatus:

quote:

---

Originally posted by St.Silas the carter:
I would like to know if it contains the offices of the triduum, or whether those will be in a future volume, but I suspect that I won't find that out till I get my hands on the volume myself.

---

My copy is on its way to me from Solesmes...could arrive even today. I'll report.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Spiffy:
Procedural question. If you're going to Holy Eucharist on Sunday morning, should you say MP before or after, or not at all?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Oblatus:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Spiffy:
Yeah, 'cept with my Sunday schedule (roll out of bed, go, "OH SHOOT! I GOTTA GET TO CHURCH!", do church, get corralled by the hipsters to go to brunch) I usually don't get home until after noon, that's why I was wondering.

---

Oh, I can relate, and sometimes don't get to MP at all, or pray it sometime in the afternoon, perhaps concatenated with Evening Prayer (use the EP rite but pray both the MP and EP psalms, read all three lessons).

---

Likewise - 'Morning Prayer' often turns into 'muttering a few relevant Psalms and the Benedictus to myself as I shower and dash around the house looking for ties/keys/espresso. The thought that counts?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Manipled Mutineer:
Of course one of the benefits of travelling by public transport is that one can pray the office with a fair degree of regularity, although chanting it can raise eyebrows...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Spiffy:
'Round about these parts, busting out a book with the gold edges and a cross on the cover is what raises the eyebrows. Although my favorite day was the one when I got on the train and sat in the seats facing the direction of travel with my prayer book, on the other side of the aisle in the seats facing the other way was an honest-to-goodness Hare Krishna tolling his beads. We BOTH got stared at, and commented on, and we kind of looked at each other, smiled a bit, and went back to our devotions.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Wilfried:
On my commute I sometimes sit near Chassidim. They read their little black book, I read mine. I imagine that they're reading the Psalms in Hebrew, as I read them in English.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Antiphon:
The next item on my shopping list will probably be the new Antiphonale Romanum for LH Sunday Vespers which has just been published by Solesmes.

---

I received my copy recently and find it very well done and easy to use. My first thought on encountering the hardcover was "Gideon Bible" but that's no complaint, as it's sturdy the way I wish their Antiphonale Monasticum volumes were. Anyway, the new AR II provides Latin Vespers for Saturdays and Sundays and for holy days and their eves. With pointed psalms, yet. I always wondered, with the unpointed psalms in the monastic volumes, how the choir was supposed to agree on where to change notes.
 

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Posted by PD (# 12436) on :
 
If you will pardon a brief return to the "breviary on the bus" tangent. I was once riding a bus in Orange County, CA, in street clericals, and a middle-aged lady got on the bus. I was reading my Anglican Breviary. She then proceeded to turn me a nice shade of pink by announcing to the whole bus that it was not only "nice to see a priest who was not stuck up and would ride the bus," and that this one "actually reads his Breviary." She hopped off two stops before me, so I assume she was a Catholic, had some issues with the management, and was going to Mass at St Hedwig's, which was about four blocks from my church.

I also have a question:

Does anyone know which antiphoner is compatable with the English Office? I am thinking of doing a chant workshop on the Office for some of our clergy to try and get them away from "Mass and Chips" liturgics.

PD
 

---

Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by PD:
Does anyone know which antiphoner is compatable with the English Office? I am thinking of doing a chant workshop on the Office for some of our clergy to try and get them away from "Mass and Chips" liturgics.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Oblatus:

quote:

---

Originally posted by PD:
Does anyone know which antiphoner is compatable with the English Office? I am thinking of doing a chant workshop on the Office for some of our clergy to try and get them away from "Mass and Chips" liturgics.

---

Interesting question; I assume you mean The English Office recently reprinted by Canterbury Norwich? I'll be interested in the answer if there's a directly applicable antiphoner. Many of the proper antiphons, especially on the Ben and Mag, and seasonal antiphons on the psalms, can be found (occasionally with minor text changes 1662 v. USA 1928) in C W Douglas' Monastic Diurnal Noted republished by Lancelot Andrewes Press. But the ferial psalm antiphons won't be found there but could be sung to a psalm tone from "Briggs and Frere," the Manual of Plainsong.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Qoheleth.:
In Holy Week, amongst other changes, we omit the Gloria after the psalms and canticles in the day offices. Does this extend to Compline, please?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Qoheleth.:
In Holy Week, amongst other changes, we omit the Gloria after the psalms and canticles in the day offices. Does this extend to Compline, please?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by St. Punk the Pious:
The Reformed Episcopal Church omits the Gloria throughout Lent up to Easter.

I think that is also the custom among most Anglicans. But correct me if I am mistaken.

---

You may be thinking of the Gloria in excelsis after the Kyrie, right? I'm referring to the Gloria Patri after every psalm or canticle.
 

---

Posted by Caledonian (# 15493) on :
 
I have just received an 1955 edition of the Scottish Prayer Book, (the 1929). Its pocket sized and just the job for me!
 

---

Posted by St. Punk the Pious (# 683) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Oblatus:

quote:

---

Originally posted by St. Punk the Pious:
The Reformed Episcopal Church omits the Gloria throughout Lent up to Easter.

I think that is also the custom among most Anglicans. But correct me if I am mistaken.

---

You may be thinking of the Gloria in excelsis after the Kyrie, right? I'm referring to the Gloria Patri after every psalm or canticle.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Nunc Dimittis:
I find myself in a peculiar bind. I really want to engage with LOTH. Even if only to use for the midday office and office of readings. But I am feeling very at sea with it.

Any suggestions?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by St.Silas the carter:
Could you tell me what the new Antiphonale Romanum contains? More specifically, I would like to know if it contains tones for singing the preces (Intercessions) at lauds and vespers.

---

• Opening versicle and response: a chant for Sundays and feasts and a chant for solemnities
• Psalm tones I through VIII with all their variations and endings; also tones C, D, and E, and Tonus Peregrinus
• The ornate mediants for the Magnificat, underlaid with the first half of each verse of that canticle
• Rules for pointing texts for chant
• Chant for lessons
• Chant for short responsories
• Chant for intercessions: with reciting note (high) Doh, flex is Doh-lah, mediant is Doh-ti-lah-Doh, and response goes Doh-sol-lah-fah.
• Chant for the collect on Sundays
• Chants for collects with various endings
• Concluding rite chants: Blessing (one for priests and deacons, one for bishops); Dismissal (ordinary and Paschaltide); conclusion for lay officiants; ornate Benedicamus Domino for appropriate occasions

quote:

---

Originally posted by Antiphon:
I'm just about to post of a cheque for £87 to the Daughters of St Paul in Slough for a full set of The Liturgy of the Hours for Africa....

Moreover, the African edition is fully up-to-date in accordance with the latest directives from the vatican as regards psalm translations, calendar etc.

I will post my own impressions of it when I recieve. It will probably mean that the four-volume USA edition which I currently have will be placed in reserve.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Antiphon:
I'm just about to post of a cheque for £87 to the Daughters of St Paul in Slough for a full set of The Liturgy of the Hours for Africa. I'd already sent an email to the Sisters in Nairobi, who sent me an invoice to post on to Slough with my payment in Sterling.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Antiphon:
Here's that link again:-

Paulines Africa

That's what I meant to do the first time!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by JSwift:
Hello all,

I'm looking for advice on praying through the daily offices. No matter what prayer book I use I find that I am rushing through the various offices due to time constraints. I end up skipping parts within each of the hours. With children and a career there isn't much I can do about the time crunch, at least for the next few years. So, should I continue to try and pray as many of the offices as possible while skipping parts or should I focus on one or occassionally even two of the hours? Your input is much appreciated.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Antiphon:
Just received my copy of the latest edition of The Daily Office SSF.

I haven't had a chance to study it properly yet but it looks interesting. Has anyone else obtained a copy yet?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Antiphon:
Hi Oblatus,

I ordered my copy of The Daily Office SSF online from Waterstone's, the UK bookshop chain.

Christmas seems to have come early (or late), as my set of The Liturgy of the Hours for Africa also arrived this afternoon, which I've already used for Prayer during the Day!!

Did you manage to order a set for yourself OK?

---

Wow...it's great to be you today, eh? I need to go green with envy for a moment:

I've held off on ordering the African LotH in order to pay some other bills, and I wanted to see whether our local Pauline Books & Music had it in stock (they didn't).

I'm mainly interested in the Revised Grail Psalter, which unless I get the African set, I'll have to wait a while to see, I gather.
 

---

Posted by Antiphon (# 14779) on :
 
I note that the new edition of The Daily Office SSF now has the traditional Latin anthems for use after Compline, which is nice.

It's a pity that it does not have any hymns included for use with Morning and Evening Prayer, although they are included for Midday Prayer and Compline. This might have been an opportunity to provide some good modern translations of some of the traditional Latin office hymns.

The overall layout is very reminiscent of Celebrating Common Prayer, with the offices for each day of the week being assigned a different theme. One drawback is that unlike CCP no biblical lectionary is included within the book itself; you have to obtain the current ordo from the SSF or the C of E, or whatever province of the Anglican Communion you are currently resident in.

Unilke CCP there are no short readings for use at and MP and EP for the convenience of travellers; this is something else which might usefully have been included.

I think the original CCP psalter was much the same as that in the 1979 ECUSA BCP and the 1984 Canadian BAS, whereas that in the new Franciscan book is that of CWDP.

Overall, the book is quite nicely printed; I remember that the quality of the paper used for the original edition of CCP back in the 1990s was not particularly good, and seemed slightly rough and ready.

The news DOSSF has a good deal of useful material which might be used in conjunction with any of the current editions of the LOH, such as the prayers for the blessing of the light, the Angelus, and various prayers for use after the office.
 

---

Posted by DitzySpike (# 1540) on :
 
I ordered mine from the UK amazon site; it's just been dispatched.
 

---

Posted by Ignatius' Acolyte (# 12426) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Antiphon:
I note that the new edition of The Daily Office SSF now has the traditional Latin anthems for use after Compline, which is nice.

It's a pity that it does not have any hymns included for use with Morning and Evening Prayer, although they are included for Midday Prayer and Compline. ...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Antiphon:
One other thing which occures to me about The Liturgy of the Hours for Africa is that it only has three page marker ribbons per volume; I personally would have found perhaps another two a bit handier!!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Martin L:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Antiphon:
One other thing which occures to me about The Liturgy of the Hours for Africa is that it only has three page marker ribbons per volume; I personally would have found perhaps another two a bit handier!!

---

Breviaries never have enough bookmarks.

---

Six would be good for me, although I could use 8-9):

Ordinary (constant part)
Ordinary (seasonal part)
Psalter
Common of the Saints
Proper of the Season
Propoer of the Saints
 

---

Posted by DitzySpike (# 1540) on :
 
My copy of Daily Office SSF just arrived.

Here are some things that I noticed. The typesetting is much nicer than its predecessors -- somewhat like Celebrating Daily Prayer. Gone, happily, are the clip-art images too

Marian anthems are provided in both Latin and English - nice touch.

The psalms are no longer printed together with the ordinary of the hours but are grouped in a section. This requires some book flipping, one inconvenience that makes one miss the older books. However, this allows flexibility for communities to use their own psalm scheme. The rubrics refers us to the Common Worship lectionary and the CCP psalm schema is given in a table at the back of the book.

The calendar uses the Common Worship provision plus Franciscan addition. The sanctoral provides propers for these festivals and commemorations but not those in the 'supplementary list'. Which is more than enough material.

Te Deum no longer begins with 'You are God, we praise you'. Furthermore, there are interpretive paraphrases given for the Gospel canticles (and the Te Deum), done up by Jim Cotter.

The Temporal provides the option of 2 collects for the Sundays. The alternative collect is often one that comes from women-oriented reading of the themes of the day.
 

---

Posted by DitzySpike (# 1540) on :
 
My mistake: Only the Latin Salve Regina is given, but all English translations are available.
 

---

Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :
 
I was pouting about amazon.co.uk selling the Daily Office SSF already and amazon.com saying it was not going to be released until May 18, so I emailed amazon.com. The reply:

Amazon.ca, Amazon.co.uk, Amazon.de, Amazon.fr, Amazon.co.jp, and Amazon.com are separate and independent sites. Items ordered through these sites will be sent from fulfillment centers in Canada, the U.K., Germany, France, Japan, and the U.S., respectively; we cannot transfer items from one country's website to another. Because each website obtains items from local suppliers, there will always be some titles that are available on one site but not through the others. If you would like to purchase a specific item, you will need to order it from the site where it is listed. order# 002-5686060-XXXXXXX: "Daily Office Ssf" hasn't been released yet and the expected release date is not known. We'll make sure to update our website listing when we know more. We rely on publisher for the release date information. Once this item has been released and we receive copies, we will be able to ship it to you. It is not uncommon for there to be a delay of several weeks between the release and distribution of a new publication.
 

---

Posted by Manipled Mutineer (# 11514) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Oblatus:
I was pouting about amazon.co.uk selling the Daily Office SSF already and amazon.com saying it was not going to be released until May 18, so I emailed amazon.com. The reply:

Amazon.ca, Amazon.co.uk, Amazon.de, Amazon.fr, Amazon.co.jp, and Amazon.com are separate and independent sites. Items ordered through these sites will be sent from fulfillment centers in Canada, the U.K., Germany, France, Japan, and the U.S., respectively; we cannot transfer items from one country's website to another. Because each website obtains items from local suppliers, there will always be some titles that are available on one site but not through the others. If you would like to purchase a specific item, you will need to order it from the site where it is listed. order# 002-5686060-XXXXXXX: "Daily Office Ssf" hasn't been released yet and the expected release date is not known. We'll make sure to update our website listing when we know more. We rely on publisher for the release date information. Once this item has been released and we receive copies, we will be able to ship it to you. It is not uncommon for there to be a delay of several weeks between the release and distribution of a new publication.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Manipled Mutineer:
had much the same frustration when the Apocryphile Press edition of Peter F. Anson's "Bishops at Large" came out and there was a gap of months between the US and UK Amazon releases. Eventually - as the message suggests - I weakened and bought my copy from Amazon US (ironically enough only shortly before getting a good original edition) but the drawback is, of course, the shipping price is substantially greater. The inventory of secondhand book titles against which you can buy and/or list also differs between Amazon sites, which is both frustrating and not particularly reasonable, as far as I can see. [/QB]

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Manipled Mutineer:
You're very welcome. Do let us know what you decide and how you get on. Over Lent I tried the 1950 English translation of the Roman Breviary published in the US by Nelson and I did find it hard going, especially as I didn't have an Ordo to help me identify what observance trumped what, so I certainly sympathise with struggling with the office!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by PD:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Manipled Mutineer:
You're very welcome. Do let us know what you decide and how you get on. Over Lent I tried the 1950 English translation of the Roman Breviary published in the US by Nelson and I did find it hard going, especially as I didn't have an Ordo to help me identify what observance trumped what, so I certainly sympathise with struggling with the office!

---

The Anglican Breviary, thich is a slight adaption of the Pius X Breviary, or the 1963 Collegeville translation of the "new" 1960 Roman Breviary are a lot easier to live with. The rubrics of the 1954 Anglican Breviary are much clearer than those of its Roman counterpart, so the major complexity is mastering the three methods by which the office is read - simple, semi-double and double. It costs about $80.00 from http://www.anglicanbreviary.net

I think it is Baronius Press that has recent republished the bilingual Collegeville Breviary. I think they retain the Pian translation of the Psalms, but if you are reciting in English that is not an issue.

PD

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by PD:
Baronius Press has been sending updates on the reprint of the John XXIII Breviary for ages. I thought they had got the flipping thing out, but apparently not. It seems to be in that same limbo as the ACC:DNO reprint of the American Missal. I think the last hitch was finding an ecclesiastical censor who was conversant enough with the traditional breviary to give it the "nihi obstat."

I have a bit of a peculiar relationship with the 1960 Breviary. I like its comparitive simplicity, but like the 1970 LOTH its calendar is enough at odds with the traditional BCP Calendar that it can be a problem. For example, on April 25th I would have said the office for Easter III, but the Mass for St. Mark. My own solution has been to use Anglican Breviary but according the 1960 rules. However, when a discrepency arises between the 1928 BCP and 1962 Calendars as to the rank of a Sunday, I follow the BCP. I know it is quirky, but it at least it solves the Kalendar problem.

PD

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Think²:
*approaches subject from a position of extreme mystification*

Rather than buying multiple editions, why not desktop publish a version that incorporates your particular preferences ? And/or have your edited text properly set and bookbound. (Yes relatively expensive, but you would not do it often.)

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Think²:
*approaches subject from a position of extreme mystification*

Rather than buying multiple editions, why not desktop publish a version that incorporates your particular preferences ? And/or have your edited text properly set and bookbound. (Yes relatively expensive, but you would not do it often.)

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Think²:
I get that, what I meant was that you could produce your own book using a desktop publishing applicaiton adn then print it for use. And I was more thinking in terms of the layout issues often mentioned here rather than the textual content.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Eddy:
I use the Divine Office quite a bit but would like an alternative that is less psalms, more pause, some non scriptural readings - poems etc.

I know that some people really like lots of psalms and I'm not arguing on that. I'm just asking where a alternative resource can be found.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Manipled Mutineer:
You're very welcome. Do let us know what you decide and how you get on.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by JSwift:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Manipled Mutineer:
You're very welcome. Do let us know what you decide and how you get on.

---

I've found that as with exercise, I need to find the time and force myself to do it until I make it a habit.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Oblatus:
I was pouting about amazon.co.uk selling the Daily Office SSF already and amazon.com saying it was not going to be released until May 18, so I emailed amazon.com.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Extol:
I just noticed that Universalis now includes quite decent office hymns for every hour, of the sort that Fr. Hunwicke recommends in his Ordo. Does anyone know when they were introduced, and from what source? Now that they are included, I may never use an office book again.

---

I rather like the Universalis site. Their translation of the psalms isn't bad either, but then I have never been a fan of the Grail translation. I am now back into my post-Pentecost rhythm of reading MP and EP from the BCP, and Office of Readings, Noon Prayer and Compline from LOTH. Personally, I rather like the Office of Readings - it is one of the best things to come out of the post-Vatican II reform apart from those tedious few weeks wen they try and overdose us on drivel - I mean documents - from the Council.

PD
 

---

Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :
 
I've received my long-awaited copy of the newly revised The Daily Office SSF, resplendent in Franciscan brown with tau-shaped cross on the front. I like it a lot, especially the improved paper and the Gill Sans type, although they still should have searched for extra spaces between words sometimes, but I am hypersensitive to such things.

One hearty chuckle happened when I went to place a ribbon in the "Festivals and Lesser Festivals" section and saw that 31 May is "The Visit of the BVM to Elizabeth II." I thought I had really missed a major story! Then I realized it's "The Visit of the BVM to Elizabeth," and it's a II Class feast day.
 

---

Posted by Antiphon (# 14779) on :
 
One of my favourite prayers from The Daily Office SSF is the one at the conclusion of the office asking for the intercession of the saints. I often use this as a final blessing when praying the RC LOH, especially on feasts and memorials of saints.
 

---

Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :
 
Here's my take on the new Daily Office SSF. This will repeat some points made in this thread by others and is a copy of a post I made in another liturgical forum...my apologies for repurposing it here, but I thought some might find it useful...

The biggest change -- the one heavy users of Celebrating Common Prayer (CCP) or the almost identical Daily Office SSF of which CCP was an edition would notice the most -- is that the lectionary and psalm schedule are gone from within the book: it's assumed users of this new Daily Office SSF will use the lectionary of Common Worship, which is published as a separate volume in various editions (I have the one by Fr. John Hunwicke titled Order for the Eucharist and for Morning and Evening Prayer in the Church of England 2010). According to the CW lectionary, today's MP psalms would have been 143 and 146 (and 148 if you add a Laudate Psalm as suggested within The Daily Office SSF); lessons would have been Josh. 4:1 to 5:1 and Lk 9:51-end. Guidance to choice of canticles is, however provided in The Daily Office SSF: this morning (Form 5, for Thursdays in Ordinary Time, it's 13 A Song of the Covenant or 26 A Song of Tobit).

The calendar is up front now, and the list of optional commemorations seems to have grown; it looks almost like our Episcopal Church calendar must look with all the Holy Women, Holy Men commemorations in it (I haven't actually seen a calendar with HW, HM items in it, though).

The devotional material seems like it's expanded a bit, and the Franciscan material seems like more than what was in the previous Daily Office SSF. There are Franciscan documents for First Order SSF and Third Order SSF people, divided up for reading of daily excerpts.

The psalter is now that of Common Worship: Daily Prayer, I believe, rather than the previous lightly adapted version of the USA BCP 1979 psalter. I don't see a heavy emphasis on using more inclusive language beyond what was done in CCP.

The paper is nicer and smoother than CCP, and the binding seems very sturdy. The typography is very similar to that of Common Worship: Daily Prayer; i.e., Gill Sans rather than Palatino. Some might find the Gill Sans a bit small.

One thing I haven't seen that I think was an important part of CCP is the shorter forms of the Offices for small groups...this was a significant contribution to resources for praying the office daily with a group in a less monastic style: a smaller psalm distribution was given, and the intent was that the people have a two-sided card as a guide through the Office (eventually not needing it once some parts were memorized) and that individuals would take the roles of psalm reader, canticle reader, lector, prayer reader, and so on, so they'd come in, pick up a marked book and/or a card, and pray a contemplative office together, with no attempt to cover the entire psalter over any period of time. I personally find it important to pray the whole psalter but also very much respect this other style of praying daily with a group of people.

Overall, I'd say The Daily Office SSF 2010 is a worthy successor to the previous editions of it and CCP; mainly you have to decide whether you want to have to consult the CW lectionary...or of course you can use the BCP 1979 lectionary or any other scheme of psalms and lessons. The new book does have an "alternative table of psalms" at the back of the book; it might be a table-ized version of the CCP psalm scheme; I'll have to study that and find out. There's a temporal table and an ordinary time table.
 

---

Posted by Extol (# 11865) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Oblatus:
[The Daily Office SSF's] calendar is up front now, and the list of optional commemorations seems to have grown; it looks almost like our Episcopal Church calendar must look with all the Holy Women, Holy Men commemorations in it (I haven't actually seen a calendar with HW, HM items in it, though).

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Extol:
Oblatus, are the modern Roman commemorations largely included? If one wanted to use the book according to, say, Fr. Hunwicke's Romanized Anglican calendar, could one? Also, how big is the book? Thanks as always--

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Thurible:
What's the Sacred Heart called this time? Is it Divine Compassion* still?

Thurible

* I think that's what it was called in CCP

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Oblatus:
One hearty chuckle happened when I went to place a ribbon in the "Festivals and Lesser Festivals" section and saw that 31 May is "The Visit of the BVM to Elizabeth II." I thought I had really missed a major story! Then I realized it's "The Visit of the BVM to Elizabeth," and it's a II Class feast day.

---

I believe the late HRH Princess Margaret was the Anglo-Catholic of the two.
 

---

Posted by PD (# 12436) on :
 
A couple of years ago I absent mindedly put May 29th - (Restoration of the Monarchy, 1660) in the parish calendar. That would have been OK except my parish is in the USA. In my defense I can say that my use of round brackets usually indicates an abrogated or suppressed holyday.

PD
 

---

Posted by Martin L (# 11804) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by PD:
A couple of years ago I absent mindedly put May 29th - (Restoration of the Monarchy, 1660) in the parish calendar. That would have been OK except my parish is in the USA. In my defense I can say that my use of round brackets usually indicates an abrogated or suppressed holyday.

PD

---

British history is American history too, in those years, anyway. You could have saved face in July with: July 4th - (Resuppression of the Monarchy, 1776).

I don't know about continuing Anglicans, but the local Episcopalians relish in conversation about English church tradition. They probably wouldn't have batted an eyelid at what you did accidentally.
 

---

Posted by PD (# 12436) on :
 
I am probably less pro-English than most of my congregation. One of the royal pain in the arse aspects of my ancestry is that my mother's family is Irish Protestant. Not the Ulster variety, but the Leinster variety that believed in Home Rule until it became Rome Rule.

PD
 

---

Posted by Burbling Psalmist (# 9514) on :
 
Advice please: I was, for a while, a Church of England ordinand and before that worked in a parish. It didn't work out and it's the laity for me for a while yet, but it left me with a habit of saying the office from Common Worship Daily Prayer.

Currently, I do this at home and the pile at the side of my favourite chair consists of:

• CW Daily Prayer
• NRSV
• Paperback Lectionary; and
• A Book of Hours from Thomas Merton

quote:

---

Originally posted by Burbling Psalmist:
Advice please...BP

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Martin L:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Oblatus:
One hearty chuckle happened when I went to place a ribbon in the "Festivals and Lesser Festivals" section and saw that 31 May is "The Visit of the BVM to Elizabeth II." I thought I had really missed a major story! Then I realized it's "The Visit of the BVM to Elizabeth," and it's a II Class feast day.

---

I believe the late HRH Princess Margaret was the Anglo-Catholic of the two.

---

What, the badly-behaved one who lived on fags on GIN? Big surprise there, no?
 

---

Posted by Martin L (# 11804) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:
What, the badly-behaved one who lived on fags on GIN? Big surprise there, no?

---

I wasn't implying...you inferred.
 

---

Posted by dyfrig (# 15) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Burbling Psalmist:
What, please, are the other options?

---

You could get away with a single volume of NT + Psalms and achieve a fairly coherent office, and as you'll have 50 minutes onthe train you should have enough time.

The morning can be opened with Ps 95, 24. 100 or 51 as the seasons require

The psalmody can be completed in a month in this manner: take the day of the month and this will be your first psalm. Then add thirty to get the second, another thirty for the third and so on, till you have five psalms. Use a couple in the morning and evening, and one at lunch time. But note two things:

- on the 29th day, don't try reading all of Psalm 119; better to reserve that psalm as a whole for a 31st day of the month

- on the 18th day, use Ps 18 in the morning (because of its length) and drop psalm 78 (again, too long)

There's an ancient Orthodox practice which gets you through the NT in 14 weeks or so if you read only on weekdays - one chapter of a Gospel, and 2 chapters from Acts-Revelation (although I think you have to read 7 chapters at the end of Rev on single day to make this work). So Gospel in the morning, Apostle in the evening.

Canticles are obviously in the NT - Ben at MP, Beatitudes at lunchtime, Mag in the evening.

And then some prayers and the Our Father.
 

---

Posted by Extol (# 11865) on :
 
I recently discovered this breviary on Lulu, which includes the complete US 1928 BCP Daily Offices, including the complete Psalter and all readings, as well as the offices of the sick and the dead. Noonday and Afternoon Prayer have been added, as well as Compline. The book was edited for use in this diocese, whose Metropolitan appears to be part of that delightful family of vagantes eccentrics who are also royalty.
 

---

Posted by sebby (# 15147) on :
 
books...bibles...lectionaries...hymnals..ordo..

If only the CofE would produce something that is everything in O N E B O O K for the FULL Daily Office (maybe in different volumes like the Roman breviary)acknowledging that probably most people who say the daily office do so pivately.

Personally, anything not in ONE BOOK is disqualified for my own use.

However:

(1)TEC did produce a format like this magnificently with the Daily Office Book.


(2)There WAS an edition of the BCP with the 1922 lectionary combined in one volume.

(3) The Anglican breviary, although rather awkward to travel with is a marvellous publication.

(4) There are abbreviated editions of CWDP but these have spare readings and are not entirely intellectually fulfilling for daily use.

ONE BOOK please liturgical commission
 

---

Posted by sebby (# 15147) on :
 
Having said that, the advent of Universalis is wonderful. Just a click on the iphone. ah..

Perhaps the CofE might produce a suitable App for the iphone...but then...not doubt it will be complictaed and inconvenient.

(I remember sedning an email to two sources about the availability of the Daily Office online. A most helpful response came from a RC source; the CofE didn't bother to respond)
 

---

Posted by dyfrig (# 15) on :
 
The Cambridge UP edition of the BCP does still come with the 1922 lectionary printed in the front, so that could cut it down to two books, if you're happy with the BCP offices.

Alternatively - if you can bear to take a pair of scissors to a book! - you could cut out the current week from the lectionary (and use it as a bookmark too) so as not to have to carry the whole booklet around.
 

---

Posted by Extol (# 11865) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by sebby:
Perhaps the CofE might produce a suitable [daily office] App for the iphone

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Spiffy:
I have this NRSV/Apocrypha/BCP 1979 (USA) which just happens to fit with a little wiggle room in this LDS scripture tote. It's my commute Office setup. On days when I don't want to carry my usual messenger bag, I grab my little tote, throw my wallet in the exterior zippered pocket and my cell in that 'wiggle room', and skip merrily on my way.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:

My scruples are not too numerous for me to hesitate passing an Andrew Jackson over to the Mormon Religious-Industrial Complex, but my current backpack arrangement is satisfactory, so the LDS tote will not go on my list of things to buy.

---

I had to choose between the Mormon Religious-Industrial complex and the Conservative Evangelical Religious-Industrial complex. Mormons just happened to have more totes in the slightly chunkier size needed for the brick that is the 'travel' NRSV/BCP.

I think they're both supplied by the Chinese Sweatshop-Industrial complex, though... so lose-lose all around!
 

---

Posted by Boadicea Trott (# 9621) on :
 
I've recently acquired two new books, which have so far managed to escape the eagle eye of my Dear Husband

I am now the possessor of the LA Press "Book of Common Prayer", and of the St Meinrad Archabbey "Liturgy of the Hours for Benedictine Oblates".

Both are beautifully produced and very well-bound. One thing which I was not expecting was them to both be relatively large-format volumes.

It does mean the font size is very nice and clear, and the St Meinrad volume is eminently suitable to reading the Office by candlelight but they are slightly unwieldy to handle and not so portable as BDP for instance.

The St Meinrad book has three nice ribbon markers, allowing one to mark the current daily Office within the four week cycle, and two to mark the Marian antiphons and the Psalm tones/ the unchanging Midday Office and Compline.
The Grail psalms are nice, but although I have tried hard, I simply cannot use the Monastery's translations of the Benedictus and Magnificat, and find myself going back to my beloved KJV for those......

I was disappointed that the LA Press BCP had no marker ribbons at all, and my normal system of emergency holy card markers keeps falling on the floor and driving me demented.... I have resorted to buying exorbitantly expensive Post-It sticky tab markers,as the binding is too tight to admit inserting a commercial set of ribbons Having said that, the Post-It tabs work very well and I have now put them in all my prayerbooks, even those with ribbon markers.

I do love the very comprehensive selection of "Opening Words" according to season and types of Feasts, but why oh why are these shoved right at the back of the volume, in between the lectionary and the appendix of various Canons of the Mass ? Why couldn't they be put between Morning and Evening Prayer, when they would be used with most effect? I did love seeing the full set of Marian antiphons after Evening prayer

Having said that, my copy of Celebrating Common Prayer, which has been languishing on a shelf, unread and unloved, has suddenly become my most cherished vehicle of saying the Office. I am using it for at least 90% of the time and absolutely loving it, finding unsuspected depths in it. If you had told me three years ago that I would be using a modern day English version of the Office, I would have laughed my socks off.......


On a slight tangent, does anyone know where I can buy a decent "holy card" with the Magnificat in KJV or RSV version English on the reverse ??
 

---

Posted by PD (# 12436) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:
What, the badly-behaved one who lived on fags on GIN? Big surprise there, no?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by New Yorker:
If one is following the new LOTH, does one read Evening Prayer for the Feast of the Immaculate Heart of Mary or does one read Evening Prayer I of the Eleventh Sunday in Ordinary Time?

---

The Sunday, unless the Immaculate Heart is a solemnity by virtue of being a Patron or Titular. I'm guessing it for that reason that the Magnificat antiphon is provided.

[ 13. June 2010, 01:26: Message edited by: RCD ]
 

---

Posted by New Yorker (# 9898) on :
 
Thanks. I read Evening Prayer I for Sunday with a commemoration of the Immaculate Heart by adding the antiphon and collect at the end. Hope that was okay.
 

---

Posted by Burbling Psalmist (# 9514) on :
 
Belated thanks to all for some interesting and thought provoking suggestions, and for feeding my office-book buying habit...

BP
 

---

Posted by Antiphon (# 14779) on :
 
As I had some cash left over from a recent holiday I have just invested in a complete set of the latest (2000) edition of the Liturgia Horarum in Latin. I ordered the books online on Saturday evening from Redemptorist Publications, and have just recieved them this afternoon (Tuesday). That's quick service!!!

The books cost £35 Sterling each; that seems to be a good deal cheaper the the price asked for by Pax Books. The volumes have black vinyl covers with red-edged pages and are protected by clear plastic jackets.

Check out the website at [EMAIL]www.rpbooks.co.uk[/EMAIL]
 

---

Posted by Antiphon (# 14779) on :
 
Sorry, I meant this for Redemptorist Publications.
 

---

Posted by Extol (# 11865) on :
 
Can anyone tell me whether Fr. Hunwicke's ORDO includes a suggested Office Hymn for the Office of Readings in the LOTH/Divine Office, or just for Lauds and Vespers?
 

---

Posted by Extol (# 11865) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by PD:
Of the lot I seem to like 1662 BCP with the 1922 or 1961 Table of Lessons best so far.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Extol:
Can anyone tell me whether Fr. Hunwicke's ORDO includes a suggested Office Hymn for the Office of Readings in the LOTH/Divine Office, or just for Lauds and Vespers?

---

• 1 EP (Thursday) H: 419 pt 1 (NEH 385)
• MP (Friday) H: 419 pt 2 (NEH 386)
• 2 EP (Friday) H: 419 pt 3 (NEH 385)

quote:

---

Originally posted by New Yorker:
Thanks. I read Evening Prayer I for Sunday with a commemoration of the Immaculate Heart by adding the antiphon and collect at the end. Hope that was okay.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Manipled Mutineer:
Has the use of the V./ & R./ in commemorations been dropped in the LoTH?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Extol:

quote:

---

Originally posted by PD:
Of the lot I seem to like 1662 BCP with the 1922 or 1961 Table of Lessons best so far.

---

Excellency, can you give a brief comparison of the two lectionaries? Fr. Hunwicke suggests that the 1961 is a sound and not terribly pruned version of the 1922, after 40 years of road testing. What are your thoughts?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Antiphon:
It seems to be the case that certain office books can sometimes command very high prices second-hand on eBay even when they are available new for less elsewhere; I think this has also happened with the 1998 reprint of The Anglican Breviary.

Can anyone suggest why this may be?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Oblatus:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Antiphon:
It seems to be the case that certain office books can sometimes command very high prices second-hand on eBay even when they are available new for less elsewhere; I think this has also happened with the 1998 reprint of The Anglican Breviary.

Can anyone suggest why this may be?

---

I think some sellers hope an uninformed buyer will simply be glad to find the book and will bid without researching the price from other sources.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Thurible:
#134 of the GILH suggests you're stuck with them. Could you just be naughty and use the ferial psalter on that day with proper antiphons?

Thurible

---

quote:

---

And you, meteorological phenomena, O bless the Lord.
And you, astronomical phenomena, O bless the Lord.
And you, geophysical phenomena, O bless the Lord.
To him be highest glory and praise for ever.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Adeodatus:
A question, Shipmates, about the Liturgy of the Hours.

LotH, in its ineffable wisdom, prescribes the psalms and canticle for Sunday Week 1 for solemnities and feasts also. However, after many years of using LotH, I'm finding I look forward to these psalms - and especially the canticle - about as much as I would look forward to my kidneys being gnawed by rats.

Is there a legitimate alternative? Even if I could be rid of the Canticle of Daniel (Benedicite) it would be a great improvement.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Antiphon:
I meant to say the asking prices of original editions come DOWN when a brand-new reprint is published .

---

Tumble in some cases, I would say - I noticed this to some extent with both of Colin Stephenson's books, Merrily on High as well as Walsingham Way, and particularly with H.R.T. Brandreth's Episcopi Vagantes and the Anglican Church (the latter sticks in the mind because with some effort I had tracked down a dustjacketed copy for £30, shortly before the Apocryphile Press reprint kilked the market...)
 

---

Posted by Qoheleth. (# 9265) on :
 
What scheme do Breviantics( ) use to set their ribbons, please? Is there a 'standard' scheme for a LotH newbie to adopt, I wonder?
 

---

Posted by Martin L (# 11804) on :
 
Oh, dear. I hope I'm not a breviantic, but the following helps me:

1. Use more ribbons. Breviaries never come with enough.
2. Set your ribbons either before reading the office, or set them after an office for the next one.
3. Use a traveling ribbon that marks where you are in the office itself. When I am using the page, I put that ribbon over the top of the breviary, to get it out of the way. This ribbon is helpful to mark your place for when you need to flip to the proper of the day or the psalter. When you need to flip somewhere else, grab the ribbon, mark the page (leaving it out the side, not the bottom, as you'll return to that page).
4. Ribbons you haven't used yet stick out the side. Ribbons you have used already (and don't need again until next office) rest snugly between the pages and stick out the bottom.
5. When I'm out of ribbons, I use index cards. Sometimes this happens with commemorations, when I don't want to lose my regular ferial markers.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Qoheleth.:
Thanks - to say what I meant to say:

Is there a standard colo(u)r scheme to set one's ribbons?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by DitzySpike:
Some will be interested to know that Episcopalian deacon Ormonde Platter has adapted most of the first three volumes of the new Antiphonale Monasticum to the English of the Book of Common Prayer.

See his web page.

---

This is just amazing. I've imagined doing a similar project, but it's done! And very well!
 

---

Posted by Extol (# 11865) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Oblatus:

quote:

---

Originally posted by DitzySpike:
Some will be interested to know that Episcopalian deacon Ormonde Platter has adapted most of the first three volumes of the new Antiphonale Monasticum to the English of the Book of Common Prayer.

See his web page.

---

This is just amazing. I've imagined doing a similar project, but it's done! And very well!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Qoheleth.:
Thanks - to say what I meant to say:

Is there a standard colo(u)r scheme to set one's ribbons?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Extol:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Oblatus:

quote:

---

Originally posted by DitzySpike:
Some will be interested to know that Episcopalian deacon Ormonde Platter has adapted most of the first three volumes of the new Antiphonale Monasticum to the English of the Book of Common Prayer.

See his web page.

---

This is just amazing. I've imagined doing a similar project, but it's done! And very well!

---

Forgive my ignorance--where does one find the office hymns in these files?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by New Yorker:
Alas, I am ribbon-challenged. When reading the LOTH the dangling ribbons are just too much of a temptation to my cats. They are rather worse for the wear. I've started using prayer cards. Much less a near occasion for feline sin.

---

Hah i've had exactly the same problem. When i pick the BCP/Bible combo (which has in addition to the ribbons that came with some movable ribbons from another book) if Pulsar sees those ribbons it's like waving a red flag at a bull. She kind of shredded one.
 

---

Posted by Extol (# 11865) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by St.Silas the carter:
I can't really understand why the Latin edition always has to be so expensive. Till the price goes down, I'll have to stick with Fr. Stravinskas' Lauds and Vespers, supplemented with the commons and propers of the saints in little booklets.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Antiphon:
Yes, Fr Stravinskas does indeed provide the gospel canticle antiphons for years A, B and C.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Extol:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Antiphon:
Yes, Fr Stravinskas does indeed provide the gospel canticle antiphons for years A, B and C.

---

Thanks Antiphon--may I ask, did you ever use his volume for an extended period, and if so, how much did the missing proper of saints affect your use?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Antiphon:
I've just noticed that Midwest Theological Forum has just published a new edition of the Liturgy of the Hours in Latin - the Liturgia Horarum

It comes in a basic hardback edition at $450 and a deluxe leather edition at $900 - I think I'd have to win the lottery before I could obtain the latter!!

---

I wonder how many of those they expect to sell at these prices. Insane!
 

---

Posted by St.Silas the carter (# 12867) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Oblatus:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Antiphon:
I've just noticed that Midwest Theological Forum has just published a new edition of the Liturgy of the Hours in Latin - the Liturgia Horarum

It comes in a basic hardback edition at $450 and a deluxe leather edition at $900 - I think I'd have to win the lottery before I could obtain the latter!!

---

I wonder how many of those they expect to sell at these prices. Insane!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Manipled Mutineer:
Just dropping in briefly to say that one of our US-based members might be interested in picking up this working copy-edition of the 3 volume Collegeville/Liturgical Press breviary at only $38 with 8 hours to go...

---

It went for only $54! I had considered bidding $50 but am in the middle of dealing with an intrusion on my PayPal account and didn't want to confuse things while the fraud is being investigated. A previous intruder on my account is now a convict and is on probation and community service in California, by the way. If you intrude on my PayPal account, it's best not to leave your home address on one of your fraudulent orders!


Anyway, on sale at eBay right now is a copy of the elusive American Office Book. Does someone have one? Is it the USA 1928 office with lessons? In any case, $285 is for me a bit too dear.
 

---

Posted by Antiphon (# 14779) on :
 
I managed to obtain a copy of the American Office Book three or four years ago.

I would say that it is basically MP and EP from the 1928 ECUSA BCP with the readings in full using the RSV, with the addition of orders for Midday Prayer and Compline.
 

---

Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :
 
Brother Martin at St Gregory's Abbey in Michigan, USA, continues his review of books for praying the divine office in the new issue of the Abbey Letter.

Getting a look this time are the various LotH editions commonly used in the USA, the Monastic Diurnal Revised, the People's Companion to the Breviary, and Phyllis Tickle's Divine Hours.
 

---

Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :
 
Brother Martin's first installment of office-book reviews was in this issue (PDF) of the Abbey Letter.

In that issue he reviewed the BCP 1979 office, A Monastic Breviary, the St Helena Breviary, Celebrating Common Prayer, Common Worship: Daily Prayer, a Mennonite daily prayer book, and Benedictine Daily Prayer.
 

---

Posted by dyfrig (# 15) on :
 
Thanks for the info on the Glenstal book, Antiphon.

For the benefit of Burbling Psalmist and all others concerned about the number of books CofEians have to use, salvation may soon be at hand: Messrs Collins & Co appear to be preparing a composite prayerbook, lectionary and bible.
 

---

Posted by New Yorker (# 9898) on :
 
I have used the one volume Christian Prayer for years now - maybe 10 or 15. The book is starting to fall apart. It came with a short four page insert for the common texts - Gospel Canticles, Psalm 95, etc. Yesterday I just noticed a typo on the common text sheet in the Magnificat. Instead of "all generations will call me blessed" it says "all generations will call be blessed."

I am embarrassed that it took me all these years to notice.

But now I don't trust my eyes. Has anyone else who uses this volume and insert sheet noticed such a typo?
 

---

Posted by Martin L (# 11804) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Oblatus:
Brother Martin's first installment of office-book reviews was in this issue (PDF) of the Abbey Letter.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by New Yorker:
I have used the one volume Christian Prayer for years now - maybe 10 or 15. The book is starting to fall apart. It came with a short four page insert for the common texts - Gospel Canticles, Psalm 95, etc. Yesterday I just noticed a typo on the common text sheet in the Magnificat. Instead of "all generations will call me blessed" it says "all generations will call be blessed."

I am embarrassed that it took me all these years to notice.

But now I don't trust my eyes. Has anyone else who uses this volume and insert sheet noticed such a typo?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Hart:
There are a few such typos. This morning you may or may not have noticed that in MP of Wednesday IV , the antiphon for the OT Canticle doesn't have a number. Hardly a big deal, but sloppy. The hymns are very badly type-set. Hymn 12, for instance, in the first measure of the last line has a random natural sign modifying a non-existent B (underneath the D). Hymn 32 actually has a wrong note: fifth line, first measure, third note (should be a G, but an F is printed).

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Originally posted by Antiphon:
The worst office book for typos I've yet come across was the first printing of The Mundelein Psalter, which had a great many! I think Oblatus was kind enough to provide an errata table for this book some time ago.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Mamacita:
Serious question, without meaning to take the thread off topic, but don't these people use editors? Don't they have proofreaders? Sheesh.

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quote:

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Originally posted by dyfrig:
Messrs Collins & Co appear to be preparing a composite prayerbook, lectionary and bible.

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quote:

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It includes Prayer During the Day and Night Prayer, which gives users a short prayer to say during and at the end of their day. It also includes a Lectionary of readings, giving two readings for every day of the year.

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However, anything that reduces the necessity to carry around a library.
 

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Posted by moonfruit (# 15818) on :
 
oblatus, thanks for the link to those reviews. Having a look at those, and a sniff around, I've ordered the Mennonite prayer book, Take Our Moments and Our Days. I'll let people know what I think of it
 

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Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by moonfruit:
oblatus, thanks for the link to those reviews. Having a look at those, and a sniff around, I've ordered the Mennonite prayer book, Take Our Moments and Our Days. I'll let people know what I think of it

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quote:

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Originally posted by Martin L:
What is the newest version of Celebrating Common Prayer? I've completely lost track of the changes.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Oblatus:
I've got a copy, and it's a big improvement in many ways. Abandoned its own lectionary, though, and relies on the CW one...or whatever one you'd like to use. Perhaps that's a plus!

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Ooh! May 2010! I knew they had been tinkering with lectionaries for years, but not that they had put their ideas forth in yet another published tweakage. Thanks for the info.

[sigh] I really should try freezing my credit cards in ice sometime...

[ 23. August 2010, 21:20: Message edited by: Martin L ]
 

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Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :
 
It hardly seems like Franciscan poverty to keep replacing office books with such frequency.
 

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Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :
 
Attended Vespers at 5 p.m. in Holy Name Cathedral today. I've been meaning to find out how they do the Office there.

A young man who has finished setting up the altar and lighting the candles for the 5:15 p.m. Mass then rolls in a library book-cart stocked with 20 or so copies of the Daughters of St Paul edition of Christian Prayer: The Liturgy of the Hours. This is the fat black hardcover with red page edges. Just so happens I've brought my leather-covered copy with gold page edges and helpful ribbons. Also on the cart are 10 or so copies of Catholic Book Publishing's Shorter Christian Prayer, the slim red fake-leather volume. The cart is placed in the cross-aisle (which runs from transept to transept) just to the right of the center aisle. Ten or 12 people pick up books and take places.

At 5:00, two women with their own DSPs open and in hand emerge from the sacristy in street clothes ("business casual"), and each takes a place at the head of the center aisle, at nave level, to lead one side of the congregation. The officiant on the epistle side (I'll call her the First Reader announces the page numbers for the place in the psalter and for the collect for St. Rose of Lima that will be used at the end. "Those taking part in Vespers, please stand."

The opening versicle and response are done as expected, although nobody adds Alleluia after Amen. The hymn is skipped entirely (which makes sense to me if we're not singing...I'm not big on reciting hymn texts).

The First Reader says the first antiphon and all repeat it. She then says softly, "This side begins," and her side says the first stroph of the (Grail) psalm, and the sides alternate, including dividing the Gloria Patri in half. The First Reader reads the psalm-prayer after the Gloria Patri, and then says "Together..." and we all say the antiphon again. (Using the order in the book, which is a good practice to prevent confusion, but I contend that this order is a long-perpetuated error and that the repeat of the antiphon should be right after the Gloria, and then the psalm-prayer if used. But doing it right would require a different book or service sheet.)

Same pattern followed for the second psalm and the canticle.

So far this has all been at nave level without amplification, which is why I scuttled up to a closer pew when the service began.

Now the Second Reader goes up to the Gospel-side lectern, which has a microphone, and says the reading without introduction or conclusion. She goes right ahead into the responsory, and the people respond well and without confusion.

The First Reader says "Those participating in Vespers please stand for the Canticle of Mary," and reads the antiphon on Magnificat, which we repeat. "Together..." and we say the Magnificat together. First Reader does the expected ceremonial of sign of the Cross at the beginning, and she bows for the Gloria Patris throughout Vespers. (I love how this edition of the breviary repeats the Gospel canticle in place every day in the psalter, eliminating a major page flip...well done!) Antiphon repeated at the end.

The intercessions are done using the responsive option, dividing each petition between Second Reader and all. First reader introduces Lord's Prayer, which all recite in unison.

Page number is again given for the St. Rose of Lima collect, which First Reader reads. She then says the final sentence to end Vespers.

Straightforward and not hard for me to follow, although I'm familiar with the rite and the book. An elderly regular asked me twice for the current page number, as I'm sure it was hard to hear when given at the beginning without amplification.
 

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Posted by Martin L (# 11804) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Oblatus:
Attended Vespers at 5 p.m. in Holy Name Cathedral today. I've been meaning to find out how they do the Office there...

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quote:

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Originally posted by Martin L:
I found the use of the ambo/lectern/whatever odd given the informality of the whole thing. In my case, the priest-celebrant of the 5:15 Mass also presided at the office, in collar and jacket. There were some core office attendees then as well--almost all women. It seems that they have trained some of these to lead. Good!

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Originally posted by Angloid:
It hardly seems like Franciscan poverty to keep replacing office books with such frequency.

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Originally posted by New Yorker:
So did they use Christian Prayer or Shorter Christian Prayer?

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quote:

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Originally posted by New Yorker:
Has anyone heard of a project to retranslate the LOTH now that the third edition of the Roman Missal is done?

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Maybe we'll hear something after the Revised Grail Psalter is released, whenever that will be.
 

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Posted by Martin L (# 11804) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Oblatus:
Yes, going up from nave level to the lectern (I want to call it an ambo, but there are two of them, and I thought an ambo was both a lectern and pulpit in one) seemed unnecessary. Apparently the lectern/ambo is The Place From Which All Readings Are Proclaimed, even a short one at Vespers.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Martin L:
I got curious and found the answer here. The ambo on liturgical north is called the Ambo of the Evangelists, and the south/cantor one is called the Ambo of the Epistle Writers. Ah, how precious.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Thurible:
So the preacher has to decide whether he's preaching on the epistle or the gospel?

Thurible

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I believe they only preach from the "Ambo of the Evangelists." They also read the Epistle (and Old Testament and Gospel) from the Ambo of the Evangelists.

The only thing I have ever seen the "Ambo of the Epistle Writers" used for is the cantor. Perhaps I shall rechristen it the "Ambo of the Flailing-Armed Song Leader."

[That being said, I imagine they use it for the tag-team Gospel readers on Palm Sunday and Good Friday.]
 

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Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :
 
Some of you may be interested in the curiosity that is this book from the Anabaptists which oddly enough appears easier to get in this country than in the US but the website seems to have a trojan on it so I am not linking to it.

Jengie
 

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Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :
 
Just popping in to this thread to report that St. Faithful-in-the-Backstreets has recently introduced daily Morning Prayer. We use the latest Franciscan Office on Mondays to Fridays, and the 1662 Prayer Book on Saturdays and Sundays!

Ww thought at first that perhaps only the priest and A. N. Other might attend, but numbers vary from 2 to 7, which is not bad for a small parish with a (very) small regular congregation. Several people have said how much attendance at Morning Prayer (perhaps on just one or two days a week) is helping their own personal spiritual growth. It is good not only to have prayer offered daily, but also to have the church door flung wide and the bell rung to remind the locals that we are open for business!

Ian J.
 

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Posted by Antiphon (# 14779) on :
 
Glad to hear that the daily office is getting off to a good start in your parish. That is an interesting idea to use the SSF Daily Office on weekdays and the BCP at weekends.

What do think of the latest edition of the Daily Office SSF? I rather like it myself and use parts of it in conjunction with the RC LOH.
 

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Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :
 
We use the SSF Office mainly because Father and several members of the congo are members of the Third Order, but we are also trying to be good children by using services approved by the Canons of the C of E! The SSF Office is close enough to Common Worship to allow this - we also use the CW lectionary.

Personally, I quite like the SSF book, and we are getting used to how it works and where things are.

Ian J.
 

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Posted by Thurible (# 3206) on :
 
Ian // (Grr, my return key keeps going and it's gone again!) // Do the pages feel as annoying to use as I'd imagined they might when I saw the book in the shop? They felt really, well, cheap. // Thurible
 

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Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Thurible:
Ian // (Grr, my return key keeps going and it's gone again!) // Do the pages feel as annoying to use as I'd imagined they might when I saw the book in the shop? They felt really, well, cheap. // Thurible

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Originally posted by FatherRobLyons:
I think you sum up many of my positive thoughts about the "A Monastic Breviary" from OHC. My chief complaint is the omission of some of the imprecatory psalms/verses from the Psalter and the translation of the Lord's Prayer. This omission was made up for in the Breviary of the Order of St. Helena, though from what I understand of the language of said book, I am not that interested in obtaining it.

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quote:

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As for A Monastic Breviary, I like it, but if I recall correctly the RSV was the translation utilized. My ears are attuned to the NRSV, and it jolts me slightly to switch back, if only ever so slightly. Am I picky? Hmmm....

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Originally posted by Jon in the Nati:
I don't know if that makes me some kind of weird traditionalist, but there it is...

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Well, you're in good company, anyway. Welcome to Eccles.
 

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Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Jon in the Nati:
According to the front matter in the volume, the Psalter, Canticles and Collects are from the 1976 Proposed BCP (which would become the 79 BCP), and from Lesser Feasts and Fasts '73. The scriptural passages are from the New English Bible or the Jerusalem Bible.

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Thanks to your mention of the OHC breviary, I remembered to take mine with me to church this evening to lead Evening Prayer (in place of the regular officiant who was feeling unwell). I was going to use antiphons on the psalms and the Magnificat, but the psalm antiphons get confusing for the congregation if there are two or more psalms, because of the way we move from one psalm to the next. So I just read the one on the Magnificat before and after that canticle, as there was a congregation of one other than myself.
 

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Posted by FatherRobLyons (# 14622) on :
 
So, as Oblatus can probably attest (we've been in touch off-list over the summer), I have been working on an office book for my nascient parish community. I've experimented with several Psalm arrangements and varying orders for the hours (and number of hours, for that matter).

During that time, I have reviewed several volumes and think I finally have developed something I am going to be able to deploy for use as a centerpiece of family devotion.

I must point out that those I minister to aren't huge fans of chant (I am), and so the entire order is balanced for all.

I have set it up with a Sunday/Holy Day Vigil (Eve PM), and Sunday/Holy Day Evening Prayer (Eucharist takes the place of MP and NP); M-F has Morning, Noon, and Evening with the option to add a second reading and a brief Eucharist (i.e., Frankenmass); with Saturday having Morning only.

The usual order for Morning, Noon, and Evening is:

Call to Worship
Opening Prayer
Psalm (spoken)
Reading
Reflection
Hymn (sung - either contemporary or traditional)
Kyrie and Intercessions
Lord's Prayer
Closing Prayer
Canticle and Gloria Patri (chanted)

The psalms are on a 10 week cycle, with each Psalm getting used at least once (save Psalm 117, which becomes the permanent verse for the Alleluia at the Eucharist) and with Psalm 141 being used bi-weekly at the Vigil. Psalms 133 and 134 are combined.

Five weeks with distinctive intercessions and closing prayers are provided (except at Noon when the same psalm litanies are used daily as the intercession). The Vigil intercession is taken from the Syriac form of the Office and includes the Trisagion.

The Psalms will be an adapted 79 BCP version. Readings will not be included, as securing the rights would be too expensive for a local-level project. (This fact, and the fact that GIA won't tell anyone when the Revised Grail Psalms will be released resulted in adapting the 79 BCP text for the psalms. I considered just citing the Psalms and reading them from our bibles - NLT - but figured that I should probably just include them to minimize page flips and confusion.)

Given this description, what thoughts might you have about the flow, and what suggestions might you have for what I have described?

Rob+
 

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Posted by Fulrad (# 15750) on :
 
I understand that the Liturgy of the Hours English translation of the RC office is not up for review.

However, are there parts of the new missal translation which would affect the Office. For example what is the new reply to 'The Lord be with you...'


------------------------
Sightings of Chrysostom, please. On our church blog.
 

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Posted by Spiffy (# 5267) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Fulrad:
However, are there parts of the new missal translation which would affect the Office. For example what is the new reply to 'The Lord be with you...'

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quote:

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Originally posted by FatherRobLyons:
Given this description, what thoughts might you have about the flow, and what suggestions might you have for what I have described?

Rob+

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I'm sure great thought has already been placed into this decision, but I'm curious why you just didn't put the canticle after the reflection and the hymn at the end. There must be a reason. Inquiring mind want to know.
 

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Posted by FatherRobLyons (# 14622) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Martin L:

quote:

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Originally posted by FatherRobLyons:
Given this description, what thoughts might you have about the flow, and what suggestions might you have for what I have described?

Rob+

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I'm sure great thought has already been placed into this decision, but I'm curious why you just didn't put the canticle after the reflection and the hymn at the end. There must be a reason. Inquiring mind want to know.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Fulrad:
I understand that the Liturgy of the Hours English translation of the RC office is not up for review.

However, are there parts of the new missal translation which would affect the Office. For example what is the new reply to 'The Lord be with you...'


------------------------
Sightings of Chrysostom, please. On our church blog.

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quote:

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Originally posted by FatherRobLyons:
1) I tend to find the usual placement of office hymns to be odd, either between the opening versicles and the psalmody, or (even worse) between the reading and the canticle.

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One reason for having a hymn between the first lesson and Magnificat in the Anglican Solemn Evensong is to give the thurifer time to get ready for the full censings during Magnificat. Although it's ideal if the censings aren't finished by the time the Gloria Patri after Magnificat comes around, so the organist can thrill everyone with the necessary improvisation leading up to the Gloria Patri.
 

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Posted by FatherRobLyons (# 14622) on :
 
Here is the draft for Morning Prayer as I used it this morning. The reading was James 1: 1-18. Normally the lesson and the intercessions would be lead by a second reader, as would alternating portions of the psalm.

WEDNESDAY

Morning Prayer

CALL TO WORSHIP

+ O Lord, open our lips.
And we will proclaim your praise.

Each day, O Lord, is a gift of your grace.
Your mercies are new every morning.

Guide our steps by the light of your Word.
Shield us from harm and keep us from evil.

PRAYER

O Lord, heavenly Father, almighty and everlasting God, you have brought us safely to the beginning of this new day. Defend us with your mighty power, and grant that this day we may fall into no sin, nor run into any kind of danger; and, in all that we do, direct us towards those things which are pleasing in your sight. We ask this through Christ our Lord. Amen.

PSALMODY

Week One
Psalm 8
DOMINE, DOMINUS NOSTER

1 O LORD our Lord, *
how exalted is your Name in all the world!

2 Out of the mouths of infants and children *
your majesty is praised above the heavens.
3 You have set up a stronghold against your adversaries, *
to quell the enemy and the avenger.

4 When I consider your heavens, the work of your fingers, *
the moon and the stars you have set in their courses,
5 What is man that you should be mindful of him? *
the son of man that you should seek him out?

6 You have made him but little lower than the angels; *
you adorn him with glory and honor;
7 You give him mastery over the works of your hands; *
you put all things under his feet:

8 All sheep and oxen, *
even the wild beasts of the field,
9 The birds of the air, the fish of the sea, *
and whatsoever walks in the paths of the sea.

10 O LORD our Lord, *
how exalted is your Name in all the world!

READING

A reading, appointed for the day, is proclaimed.

If a celebration of the Eucharist is to be appended to this hour of prayer,
two readings are proclaimed, with the second being from the Gospels.

REFLECTION

A brief reflection on the reading may be offered.

HYMN

A hymn may be sung.

INTERCESSIONS

Lord, have mercy.
Christ, have mercy.
Lord, have mercy.

Give us peace in our days, O Lord;
The peace which comes only from you.

Let your pastors declare the unsearchable riches of Christ;
And pierce each person’s heart with the mystery of your love.

Keep us from losing heart as we witness the suffering of the world around us;
And strengthen us to use our talents to relive the suffering we encounter.

Show us how to walk this day in love;
That we may imitate Christ who gave himself up to death for love of us.

Do good, O Lord, to those who have been good to us;
And help us to honor those who have placed their trust in us.

Have mercy upon all who are dying this day;
Grant that they may trust in you for rest.

Intercessions and thanksgivings may be offered silently or aloud.

THE LORD’S PRAYER

And now, as our Savior Christ has taught us, we boldly pray:

Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name.
Let your kingdom come.
Let your will be done on earth as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread,
and forgive us our sins as we forgive those who sin against us.
Save us from the time of trial,
and deliver us from the evil one.
For the kingdom, the power, and the glory are yours,
now and forever. Amen.

PRAYER

God our Creator, today you bring us to a new stage of our journey with you. May the presence of your Son be our guide, and the love of the Spirit our light, until we come at last to you, the one true God, who is blessed forever and ever. Amen.

CANTICLE
Benedictus

Blessed be the Lord, the God of Israel; *
he has come to his people and set them free.
He has raised up for us a mighty savior, *
born of the house of his servant David.

Through his holy prophets he promised of old,
that he would save us from our enemies, *
from the hands of all who hate us.
He promised to show mercy to our fathers *
and to remember his holy covenant.

This was the oath he swore to our father Abraham, *
to set us free from the hands of our enemies,
Free to worship him without fear, *
holy and righteous in his sight
all the days of our life.

You, my child, shall be called the prophet of the Most High, *
for you will go before the Lord to prepare his way,
To give his people knowledge of salvation *
by the forgiveness of their sins.

In the tender compassion of our God *
the dawn from on high shall break upon us,
To shine on those who dwell in darkness
and the shadow of death, *
and to guide our feet into the way of peace.

DOXOLOGY

+ Glory to the Father, and to the Son,
and to the Holy Spirit;
as it was in the beginning,
is now, and will be forever. Amen.

(Note: The intercessions above are adapted from the Litany for Wednesday, Week I&III at Lauds found in Benedictine Daily Prayer: A Short Breviary.)

[ 15. September 2010, 11:32: Message edited by: FatherRobLyons ]
 

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Posted by Patrick (# 305) on :
 
Cambell's From Breviary to Liturgy of the Hours gives an account of how the Office Hymn wound up at the beginning of all the hours in the new LOTH: in short, without much reflection or debate or rationale. The older order, where the Hymn came before the Canticle, marked the end of the monastic elements at Lauds and Vespers (psalmody) and the elements proper to the older cathedral use office.
 

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Posted by Jon in the Nati (# 15849) on :
 
Hey, Fr. Rob; why such a weak psalter cycle?

Maybe I've just become so used to the 2 week cycle (it is what I did even before starting with the OHC breviary), but I very much like that schedule. Is it just to reduce the time it takes to pray the office (and therefore the time commitment for laypeople)?
 

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Posted by FatherRobLyons (# 14622) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Jon in the Nati:
Hey, Fr. Rob; why such a weak psalter cycle?

Maybe I've just become so used to the 2 week cycle (it is what I did even before starting with the OHC breviary), but I very much like that schedule. Is it just to reduce the time it takes to pray the office (and therefore the time commitment for laypeople)?

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Originally posted by sebby:
Father Rob that's rather a good brief office. sBut presumably one can ditch that translation of the Lord's Prayer and use the 'Our Fsther who art on heaven..' as being more common, ecumenical and poetic? I didin't know that the so-called modern one was still used (serious question!)

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quote:

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Originally posted by sebby:
Father Rob that's rather a good brief office. sBut presumably one can ditch that translation of the Lord's Prayer and use the 'Our Fsther who art on heaven..' as being more common, ecumenical and poetic? I didin't know that the so-called modern one was still used (serious question!)

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We sing the modern Lord's Prayer as printed in the BCP79 every Sunday at our AC Rite 2 parish. I hear it often enough. It's not dead.
 

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Posted by Fulrad (# 15750) on :
 
I really like Fr Rob's office, it gives plenty of space, and not too many words / images.

We are wondering about introducing such an office.

I'm not so sure about ending with the canticle. I need to think that one through. Is there historical precedent on this one?

------------------------
Sightings of Chrysostom, please. On our church blog.
 

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Posted by FatherRobLyons (# 14622) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Fulrad:
I really like Fr Rob's office, it gives plenty of space, and not too many words / images.

We are wondering about introducing such an office.

I'm not so sure about ending with the canticle. I need to think that one through. Is there historical precedent on this one?

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Jon in the Nati:
Let us say, for sake of example, that in one office I have a reading from the OT, an epistle and Gospel lection, and a patristics selection. Am I correct that the proper order is:

OT -> NT -> GOSPEL -> PATRISTIC

If so, why does the Patristic selection come after the Gospel (and what is the proper response to it)?

If not, what is the proper order?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Jon in the Nati:
I've heard people speak of aggregating MP and EP, but I've never actually seen it done. How would one go about doing that, assuming you wanted to do so?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Jon in the Nati:
It really has little to do with making up a missed office; I have actually heard of parishes or oratories serving aggregated MP & EP, but have never actually attended such a service. I was just wondering how that would be done.

Thanks, though.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Spiffy:
It makes more sense to me (and frequently happens at Chez Mon Ewe) to aggregate EP and Compline.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Thurible:

quote:

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Originally posted by Spiffy:
It makes more sense to me (and frequently happens at Chez Mon Ewe) to aggregate EP and Compline.

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Made sense to Cranmer too.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Angloid:
I'm sure there used to be (maybe still is) a church in the city of London with this daily schedule: 12.00 Morning Prayer; 12.15 Eucharist; 12.45 Evening Prayer. Or something like it.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Jon in the Nati:
Our sister parish (one town over) is working on adding Lauds/Morning Prayer/Mattins before Sunday mass, with maybe Lauds and Vespers other days during the week. They just really want some manifestation of the daily office in their parish, but we aren't sure yet what form its going to take.

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quote:

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A very successful model I've seen in a TEC place or two is to make it standard policy to automatically precede your first morning Mass with Morning Prayer (by about 15-20 minutes tops), and to automatically precede any evening Mass with Evening Prayer (by about 15-20 minutes).

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quote:

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Originally posted by Jon in the Nati:
...but that parish is historically pretty low, and until relatively recently it was the evangelical/low church Anglican practice to alternate Mattins/MP with the Eucharist, or to have the Eucharist only once a month (a la most Protestant groups). Really, we just don't want to confuse anyone, or devalue in any way the Eucharist.

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quote:

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A couple of our readers have made note of this free and ready to print, two-year Scriptural-Patristic Lectionary for use at the Office of Readings (Vigils). This utilizes the two-year scriptural lectionary that Rome had prepared as an alternative to the one-year lectionary in the Liturgy of the Hours, together with the patristic readings to correspond with them.

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quote:

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Originally posted by FatherRobLyons:
The closest I am aware of is the West Syrian rite's usage of the Gloria in Excelsis as the closing hymn at Morning Prayer

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quote:

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Originally posted by dyfrig:
When Fr Ephrem Lash put together his "An Orthodox Prayer Book" for the Oxford University Press, he included the Great Doxology as part of Morning Pryaer. Likewise, Jim Forest included it in his prayers section of the book "Praying with Icons", so I think there's a tradition of using it within Orthodox prayer manuals.

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quote:

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Originally posted by IngoB:
News from Baronius on their Roman Breviary - Breviarium Romanum, a re-edition of the three-volume Collegeville Breviary in Latin & English, originally published in 1963: "The excellent news is that the final corrections from the Censor have been received a few days ago. We anticipate that the implementation of the corrections and the finalising of the Breviary will take a couple of weeks. After this, we will formally apply for the Concordat cum originali to be granted – the necessary approval that liturgical texts require in order to be used and also to ensure that the text is accurate. As soon as the permission is granted, the printing will commence." Apparently this was posted 28th of October 2010. It looks like this one will finally become a reality, perhaps still in time for the Christmas shopping? I'm very curious about the price point they'll choose...

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quote:

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Originally posted by jordan32404:
I'm wondering what is considered the best Anglo-Catholic form of the Daily Office... does the historic Prayer Book office rank on the list? (If such an agreement can be had). I'm aware of the Daily Office thread, however, my question, relates to the historic Prayer Book offices and the Anglo-Catholic preference.

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Originally posted by Michael Astley:

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Originally posted by dyfrig:
When Fr Ephrem Lash put together his "An Orthodox Prayer Book" for the Oxford University Press, he included the Great Doxology as part of Morning Pryaer. Likewise, Jim Forest included it in his prayers section of the book "Praying with Icons", so I think there's a tradition of using it within Orthodox prayer manuals.

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There certainly is, and it is a part of Matins, it just doesn't appear to form its conclusion, contrary to what I had previosuly been told. (I'm sorry for the confusion with subject and verb in my earlier post).

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• Glory to you who has shown us the light!
• Great Doxology (Gloria to God in the highest)
• Everyday I will bless you** and praise your name for ever, unto ages of ages!
• Vouchsafe, O Lord to keep us this day without sin.
• Blessed are you, O Lord God of our fathers and glorified is your name forever. Amen.
• Let your mercy, O Lord, be upon us as we have set our hope on you!
• Blessed are you, O Lord, teach me your statutes X 3
• Lord, you have been our refuge from generation to generation. I said: Lord have mercy on me; heal my soul, for I have sinned against you. Lord, I flee to you! Teach me to do your will, for your are my God. For with you is the well of life; in your light we shall see light! Continue your loving kindness on those who know you!
• Trisagion X 2 (Holy God, Holy Mighty)
• Glory to the Father...Holy Immortal, have mercy on us.
• Trisagion X 1
• Troparion of the Resurrection (Today salvation has come to the world! Let us sing to him who rose from the dead, the Author of Life! Having destroyed death by death, he has given us victory and great mercy)
• Litany of Fervent Supplication (Have mercy on us, O God, according to your great goodness, we pray you, hearken and have mercy, etc.)
• The Litany of Supplication (Morning Litany) (Let us complete our morning prayer to the Lord)
• The Prayer at the Bowing of the Heads (O Holy Lord, dwelling in the highest, regarding the humble of heart, etc.)
• Wisdom! Master Bless!
• Christ our God, the Existing One...
• Confirm, O God, the holy Orthodox Faith and Orthodox Christians, unto ages of ages.
• Most Holy Theotokos, save us.
• More honorable...
• Glory to you, O Christ, our god, and our hope, glory to you.
• Glory to the Father. Master bless!
• May Christ our true God, etc.
• Reverence of the icons and kissing of the cross by orders.

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Originally posted by Oblatus:
As far as public praying of the Office is concerned, I'd say the various official BCPs (1662 in England, 1979 in the USA, etc.) are well used in Anglo-Catholic parishes to keep the full daily liturgy comprising Morning Prayer, Mass, and Evening Prayer. The Office admits of fewer observances because at its core is the recitation of the whole Psalter and the in-course reading of most of the Bible. A typical lesser feast affects the Mass but not usually at the Office unless a related patristic reading is used at one of the Offices.

On major and principal feasts, the psalm and scripture cycles are interrupted, and the officiant can add antiphons from a reliable source (in the USA, there's A Prayer Book Office, for instance, or I sometimes use the Monastic Diurnal).

While a BCP office may not be Anglo-Catholic in terms of a wealth of antiphons and responsories, it is a very manageable way for an A-C parish to offer the full daily liturgy in the church, in common. That's very Anglo-Catholic, IMHO.

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I suppose it all depends how you define 'anglo-catholic', and what side of the Pond you're on. Over here, I would guess that the vast majority of anglo-catholic priests, a few laypeople, and many others who wouldn't call themselves a-c, got used to the Roman Catholic Divine Office soon after its publication. The C of E, first unofficially (Celebrating Common Prayer) and then officially (Common Worship: Daily Prayer) eventually caught up with things and the latter office is very similar (antiphons, canticles, structure) to the Breviary. Hence it should be satisfactory for most anglo-catholics, but my guess is that many haven't bothered to change, or have an ideological preference for a Vatican-approved version.

Oblatus is right, that where the office is recited publicly, the BCP version is often preferred. That applies to Sunday Evensong in many parishes.
 

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Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on :
 
OK - my experience is obviously strange, I keep being told so by Eccles ...

The churches I've attended regularly that say the offices publicly have used Celebrating Common Prayer and latterly Common Worship: Daily Prayer. We're also encouraged, as a parish, to use the Reflections for Daily Prayer for personal devotions, which is based on the CW:DP Morning Prayer office readings.
 

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Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :
 
I've mentioned before that we use the Franciscan Daily Office, given that our parish priest and several members of the congregation are Members of the Third Order of the Society of St. Francis. It is, however, very similar to the Common Worship Office, and fits very well with our Anglo-Catholic ethos. One person (who forgets that we are C of E) cavilled somewhat when we introduced it, insisting that we should use the Roman Office........

Recalling that we are C of E, therefore, Sunday Matins is firmly 1662 BCP, by the book. None of yer Carflick accretions 'ere!

Ian J.
 

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Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :
 

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Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
One person (who forgets that we are C of E) cavilled somewhat when we introduced it, insisting that we should use the Roman Office........

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Originally posted by Oblatus:
I still have heard of zero Episcopal parishes in the USA that use the Roman Missal, other than to borrow the offertory prayers therefrom.

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Originally posted by Oblatus:

I think the usual thing is to have an OT lesson and an NT one, each followed by a canticle (Magnificat and Nunc dimittis, respectively, at Evening Prayer). If there's a third lesson, like a patristic one, some commentators say it should immediately follow the second biblical one (so before the Nunc at Evening Prayer) and others say it should be between the second canticle and the Apostles' Creed.

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Originally posted by Oblatus:
[That's a definite cross-pond difference. While some individual U.S. Episcopalians (including me sometimes) avail themselves of the RC Liturgy of the Hours, use of RC books in churches is practically unheard of...very few exceptions, and I still have heard of zero Episcopal parishes in the USA that use the Roman Missal, other than to borrow the offertory prayers therefrom.

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*Over the years, I have prayed the office either from LoH or from BCP (1928 way back when, and 1979 since, well, 1979). Currently i use the BCP but often add or substitute bits from the LoH when i am at home and have both volumes at hand. For variety, I sometimes substitute the O.T. canticle from from LoH for the 1st canticle in the BCP. I sometimes use the LoH antiphon for the Benedictus and Magnificat on feasts and Sundays.

The Nunc D. i use at Compline (or at least a mini-version thereof) (if i don't fall asleep 1st! )

[ 13. November 2010, 15:27: Message edited by: malik3000 ]
 

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Posted by Thurible (# 3206) on :
 
In Ye Olde Books for the Office, 1st Evensong seems to be given precedence over 2nd Evensong (for reasons I'm not entirely clear about). In compiling the Domestic Ordo (essentially adding antiphons on the Mag and Nunc to the Prayer Book office, using the CW lectionary), some of the propers don't have 2nd Evensong antiphons so I've been using the 1st Evensong ones (given that there'll only be one Evensong, and that on the day).

Does it, therefore, make sense to swap the 1st Evensong and 2nd Evensong antiphons for feasts that do actually have a First Evensong according to the modern rules.

(Incidentally, don't ask me why I don't just use another office. I'm not sure is the answer.)

Thurible
 

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Posted by Thurible (# 3206) on :
 
Including Sundays.
 

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Posted by Patrick (# 305) on :
 
Fr.Gregory Woolfenden (Memory Eternal)in his Daily Liturgical Prayer demonstates the historic importance of First Vespers . The only comprehensive comparative study of the Divine Office that I had read up to now was the magisterial work of Robert Taft, SJ, The Liturgy of the Hours East and West. Woolfenden is grounded in Taft, of course, and also in Paul Bradshaw's work. The present volume is a gem, focused upon a simple observation: that in its origin, the daily office was a meditation upon the transition from darkness to light, from sleep to wakefulness and, most importantly, from death to life. The Paschal Vigil serves as a paradigm for this meditation. Thus, the liturgical day properly begins with sunset and ends at sunset, not from sunrise till night. The Eastern Churches, without exception, keep this pattern even today. For us Orthodox, for instance, Vespers looks forward to a feast, which culminates in our sacramental participation in its mystery through the Divine Liturgy. The notion of Second Vespers is quite alien to an Eastern Orthodox sense of liturgical commemoration, except, rarely, during the Great Fast (Forty Martyrs of Sabaste, for instance, when a Presanctified Liturgy is served). Fr. Woolfenden goes through the structure and development of all the major Eastern liturgical families as well as the Roman and Benedictine Office and the Ambrosian and Mozarabic variants.
When I was a boy, my Short Breviary already incorporated the abolition of First Vespers for all but First Class Feasts (now termed Solemnities) and Sundays, and that is all that remains of the ancient vesperal anticipation of a feast after the promulgation of Vatican II's LOTH. I was always chagrined when I attended Vespers at the Cowley Fathers. They were using the Sarum grounded Hours of Prayer, and, given the coincidence of First and Second Vespers of weekday feasts, Second Vespers were rare, largely confined to Sundays and the major celebrations of the year. I thought that the good fathers were being quaint.
Dr. Woolenden also emphasizes the centrality of not only Vespers and Lauds, but also of the nocturnal Vigil. After Vatican II, some acknowledgement of the nocturnal vigil character of the new Office of Readings is conceded in the official commentaries, and in the supplementary Resurrectional Gospel options, but, as you know, it may be said at any time of day and its nocturnal use is probably now exclusively monastic.
The modern western office, then, departs radically from the ancient notion of the liturgical day insofar as the LOTH generally begins with sunrise and ends at sunset. It is not essentially centered upon the Resurrectional theme of the ancient Office. It seems as if the hierarchs at Vatican II were hesitant, with some good reason, for accepting the judgment of the liturgical scholars regarding how to renew the Office. But, I think, in what finally transpired, they threw away the baby with the bath water
 

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Posted by jordan32404 (# 15833) on :
 
So if I wanted to embellish the Prayer Book office... what are some resources I could use to add antiphons to the Office?
 

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Posted by jordan32404 (# 15833) on :
 
Another question... Office hymns, where do they "go" in the Office?
 

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Posted by Jon in the Nati (# 15849) on :