Ship of Fools: The Commination Service

Thread: The Commination Service Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by american piskie (# 593) on :

Apropos of that man of blood Thurible commented that Pusey House used to be more sensible.

I have just passed their notice board and see that Evensong and the Commination Service is on the menu for Tuesday.

Does anyone else lay it on? It used to be a staple in Magdalen College, but that ceased a quarter of a century ago I think.

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :

Cursed be he that hath removed it from Comic Washup........

Ian J.

Posted by Devils Advocate (# 16484) on :

The last time I heard of the Commination service being used was by a vicar who read it from the pulpit one Sunday morning after one of the churchwardens had run of with his wife!
Its a trifle old fashioned (But then theres nothing wrong with that) It's my Sunday evening for taking Choral Evensong and I have decided that we will be having the Greater Litany as it is writ, plus one interpolation from Ritual Notes at some point. All I need to decide it where to put it.

[ 11. February 2013, 14:46: Message buggered about with by: Devils Advocate ]

Posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras (# 11274) on :

Will you be including the petition for deliverance from the ****** of Rome and all his detestable enormities? Just in keeping with all that is quaint and old fashioned.

Posted by seasick (# 48) on :

Cursed be he that posteth not on the H&A day threads.

Posted by PD (# 12436) on :

I used to read the Commination on Ash Wednesday when I was in England. The Chapel where I ministered was LOW so it was the distinguishing feature of the First Day of Lent.

Present shack has Ashes, the Penitential Office, and Lent Array, which sort of appeals to my Dearmerish streak.

PD

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

'Cursed be he that moveth his neighbour's landmark.'

Very relevant today - one's field was one's livelihood. Multi-nationals dispossessing people in the 3rd world etc.

Posted by malik3000 (# 11437) on :

quote:
Originally posted by leo:
'Cursed be he that moveth his neighbour's landmark.'

Very relevant today - one's field was one's livelihood. Multi-nationals dispossessing people in the 3rd world etc.

Amen to that!

Posted by Percy B (# 17238) on :

quote:
Originally posted by american piskie:
Apropos of that man of blood Thurible commented that Pusey House used to be more sensible.

I have just passed their notice board and see that Evensong and the Commination Service is on the menu for Tuesday.

Does anyone else lay it on? It used to be a staple in Magdalen College, but that ceased a quarter of a century ago I think.

This surprises me for two reasons:

Firstly, I would never have associated the Commination Service with Pusey House religion.

Secondly, I would never have associated the Commination service with Shrove Tuesday rather than Ash Wednesday

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Percy B:
I would never have associated the Commination service with Shrove Tuesday rather than Ash Wednesday

The rubric states that it is to be used on the First Day of lent and other such days as the Ordinary shall require.

Posted by Metapelagius (# 9453) on :

Who is the ordinary of Pusey House? I recall being told that the ordinary of a Cambridge college chapel is the Dean. That may also be the case, mutatis mutandis, for an Oxford college chapel, but the Puseum isn't a college chapel.

Posted by american piskie (# 593) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Metapelagius:
Who is the ordinary of Pusey House? I recall being told that the ordinary of a Cambridge college chapel is the Dean. That may also be the case, mutatis mutandis, for an Oxford college chapel, but the Puseum isn't a college chapel.

Dr Kemp once replied to my question on the College ordinary (I cannot lay hands on his letter, but do recall that it had been written in a dull moment of a Lambeth Conferenece) that to answer such a question one had to be clear what one meant by "ordinary"; it doesn't always mean the same legal person. He held that in most college chapel cases the greater part of the "ordinary" jurisdiction belonged to the Governing Body of the College, although the chapel was in the diocese of Oxford, and if (for example) one wanted a new chapel consecrated then the Bishop would be your man.

[The cases of New College, Magdalen, Christ Church, and perhaps Corpus, are special. Dr Kemp, I seem to recall, thought other assertions of extra-diocesan status mere wishful thinking.]

I think the analogues for Pusey would be the religious communities and their chapels.

Posted by Metapelagius (# 9453) on :

quote:
Originally posted by american piskie:

quote:
Originally posted by Metapelagius:
Who is the ordinary of Pusey House? I recall being told that the ordinary of a Cambridge college chapel is the Dean. That may also be the case, mutatis mutandis, for an Oxford college chapel, but the Puseum isn't a college chapel.
Dr Kemp once replied to my question on the College ordinary (I cannot lay hands on his letter, but do recall that it had been written in a dull moment of a Lambeth Conferenece) that to answer such a question one had to be clear what one meant by "ordinary"; it doesn't always mean the same legal person. He held that in most college chapel cases the greater part of the "ordinary" jurisdiction belonged to the Governing Body of the College, although the chapel was in the diocese of Oxford, and if (for example) one wanted a new chapel consecrated then the Bishop would be your man.

[The cases of New College, Magdalen, Christ Church, and perhaps Corpus, are special. Dr Kemp, I seem to recall, thought other assertions of extra-diocesan status mere wishful thinking.]

I think the analogues for Pusey would be the religious communities and their chapels.

You rouse my curiosity. Christ Church is singular in that it serves as both a college chapel and a cathedral. But why the other three?

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

Because they were founded by bishops?

What about Lincoln. I remember the chaplain praying for "Patrick our bishop" rather than Kenneth. I was referring to the Bishop of Lincoln.

Posted by Metapelagius (# 9453) on :

quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
Because they were founded by bishops?

What about Lincoln. I remember the chaplain praying for "Patrick our bishop" rather than Kenneth. I was referring to the Bishop of Lincoln.

I wondered that - New College was founded by William of Wykeham, Corpus by Richard Foxe. Both were bishops of Winchester. Wm of Wykeham was also Lord Chancellor, as was William of Waynflete, founder of Magdalen. But Wm of Waynflete wasn't bishop of anywhere, but he was Provost of Eton, which is a royal foundation. The founder of Ch Ch was Henry VIII - who took it over from the disgraced Cardinal Wolsey who was also Lord Chancellor, so it is a royal foundation. So three of the four (Ch Ch at one remove) were founded by Lords Chancellor and two by bishops of Winchester, one of whom wasn't LC.

I don't think the answer has emerged from this. As Venbede says other colleges were founded by bishops - Exeter (Exeter), Lincoln (Lincoln), Brasenose (Lincoln), All Souls (Canterbury), or Lords Chancellor - Merton. But these do not figure as 'special cases'.

Posted by NatDogg (# 14347) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Metapelagius:

quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
Because they were founded by bishops?

What about Lincoln. I remember the chaplain praying for "Patrick our bishop" rather than Kenneth. I was referring to the Bishop of Lincoln.
I wondered that - New College was founded by William of Wykeham, Corpus by Richard Foxe. Both were bishops of Winchester. Wm of Wykeham was also Lord Chancellor, as was William of Waynflete, founder of Magdalen. But Wm of Waynflete wasn't bishop of anywhere, but he was Provost of Eton, which is a royal foundation. The founder of Ch Ch was Henry VIII - who took it over from the disgraced Cardinal Wolsey who was also Lord Chancellor, so it is a royal foundation. So three of the four (Ch Ch at one remove) were founded by Lords Chancellor and two by bishops of Winchester, one of whom wasn't LC.

I don't think the answer has emerged from this. As Venbede says other colleges were founded by bishops - Exeter (Exeter), Lincoln (Lincoln), Brasenose (Lincoln), All Souls (Canterbury), or Lords Chancellor - Merton. But these do not figure as 'special cases'.

The discussion has taken a fascinating turn!

Posted by NatDogg (# 14347) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Metapelagius:

quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
Because they were founded by bishops?

What about Lincoln. I remember the chaplain praying for "Patrick our bishop" rather than Kenneth. I was referring to the Bishop of Lincoln.
I wondered that - New College was founded by William of Wykeham, Corpus by Richard Foxe. Both were bishops of Winchester. Wm of Wykeham was also Lord Chancellor, as was William of Waynflete, founder of Magdalen. But Wm of Waynflete wasn't bishop of anywhere, but he was Provost of Eton, which is a royal foundation. The founder of Ch Ch was Henry VIII - who took it over from the disgraced Cardinal Wolsey who was also Lord Chancellor, so it is a royal foundation. So three of the four (Ch Ch at one remove) were founded by Lords Chancellor and two by bishops of Winchester, one of whom wasn't LC.

I don't think the answer has emerged from this. As Venbede says other colleges were founded by bishops - Exeter (Exeter), Lincoln (Lincoln), Brasenose (Lincoln), All Souls (Canterbury), or Lords Chancellor - Merton. But these do not figure as 'special cases'.

The discussion has taken a fascinating turn!

Posted by american piskie (# 593) on :

New College and Magdalen because their founders Wykeham and Waynflete, both Bishops of Winchester, did the right legal and ecclesiastical things to make sure their colleges were detached portions of Winchester diocese. (Hence the case of a Dean of Divinity --- for both colleges have such an officer --- not allowed to officiate in the diocese of Oxford but going his own merry way in Magdalen.) The same may apply to Corpus.

Exeter (of which Dr Kemp was chaplain) was never in the diocese of Exeter, and its current chapel was consecrated by the Bishop of Oxford, without any protest from Exon who was present.

Lincoln (and Brasenose too?) was in diocese of Lincoln, as indeed we all were until Oxford was carved out. I believe that Dr K once murmured that our neighbour's claims to somehow have been left in Lincoln were, hmm, wishful thinking.

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :

Cursed be he that deraileth a thread.....

Apropos the Commination Service being confined to the first day of Lent, it might be argued that its use at or after Evensong on Shrove Tuesday could be so construed.

IIRC, the Commination Service was once used (but not in Lent) at a village somewhere in England, following the theft of an alms box from the church.....presumably calling down the Wrath of God on the thief responsible for this Outrage! Surely a prayer for someone so needy as to rob a church alms box (containing, probably, about twopence-farthing) would have been more appropriate.

Ian J.

Posted by Percy B (# 17238) on :

Nice try BF but I don't think that evening before business quite works with Ash Wednesday! But let one's conscience be the guide [Smile]

A RC priest friend said he saw Lent as beginning with the liturgy of Ash Wednesday so he had no problem with eating meat for lunch on Ash Wednesday because his liturgy was in the evening.

quote:
there's a nice knock-down argument for you

The Commination service seems to me to be a liturgy for the beginning of Lent encouraging repentance. Perhaps rather than revive it in its 17th century form liturgies could devise a simple act of worship doing the same thing today. I know the C of E book Lent, Holy Week and Easter tried that, or I think it did, but I have not seen it in Common Worship in the C of E.

The advantage, I guess, of the Comminatin service was that it was 'off the peg liturgy' and did not need the fuss and alternatives Comon Worship likes to offer.

Posted by Fr Weber (# 13472) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Percy B:

A RC priest friend said he saw Lent as beginning with the liturgy of Ash Wednesday so he had no problem with eating meat for lunch on Ash Wednesday because his liturgy was in the evening.

He ought to know better. Ash Wednesday is a fast day, no matter when the liturgy is, even if there's no liturgy. For shame!

As for beginning the evening before (whether with commination or ashes), that's fine if you're celebrating a feast, but Ash Wednesday is not a feast. It's a feria (though a privileged one), and so liturgically the day begins at midnight.

Posted by Percy B (# 17238) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:

quote:
Originally posted by Percy B:

A RC priest friend said he saw Lent as beginning with the liturgy of Ash Wednesday so he had no problem with eating meat for lunch on Ash Wednesday because his liturgy was in the evening.
He ought to know better. Ash Wednesday is a fast day, no matter when the liturgy is, even if there's no liturgy. For shame!

As for beginning the evening before (whether with commination or ashes), that's fine if you're celebrating a feast, but Ash Wednesday is not a feast. It's a feria (though a privileged one), and so liturgically the day begins at midnight.

Its difficult to get tongue in cheek into writing sometime! My RC priest friend knew better, he was suggesting loopholes that he knew didn't exist!

Posted by Fr Weber (# 13472) on :

Oh, I see. As you were, then! [Biased]

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