Ship of Fools: vestment value?

Thread: vestment value? Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by Ebenezer (# 17463) on :

Newbie here; I hope I'm posting in the right place.

I've been given the opportunity to buy a second-hand chasuble in exchange for a donation to charity. My difficulty is that I've been given NO guide whatsoever as to what an appropriate sum of money would be. (I asked, and was told to decide for myself.) I'm an ordinand, with as yet no experience of shopping for, purchasing, or even describing (!) vestments, so I'd appreciate advice on what an appropriate donation / payment for this would be.

The item in question is a "fiddle-back" chasuble. The main fabric is I guess a monochrome (red) damask. The orpheys (if that's the right name for the broad vertical strips, front and back) are velvet, decorated with yellow braid, gold thread, and a sprinkling of sequins and gold beads for good measure. All edges of the chasuble and orpheys are trimmed with a decorative binding as well. At first glance it's gorgeous, but already at the second glance you can see that it needs repair. Lots of gold trim has come unstitched (usually just an inch here and an inch there, but one long (maybe 5 in) stretch as well). I have no idea of its age or provenance.* The chasuble is lined, and all the fabric seems to be in good condition although it needs cleaning. No stole is included with it.

(*by which I mean I don't know whether it was made in an Italian nunnery or an Indian sweatshop, not that I have any concerns about its legitimacy as a liturgical garment for purchase.)

What, fellow fools, would be a fair donation for this? Advice (on the price rather than on the merits of Gothic vs Roman styling) welcome. Thank you!

Posted by Zach82 (# 3208) on :

Well, here's a selection of brand spanky new ones, which start at $265.

Posted by Amos (# 44) on :

It's not a great idea to acquire a chasuble without a stole, chalice veil, & burse. It's especially not a good idea to buy one in need of repair, unless you yourself are skilled with a needle--the repairs will almost certainly have to be done by hand.

I think you should give this chasuble a miss. This shouldn't preclude you from making some kind of charitable donation however.

Posted by Codepoet (# 5964) on :

I am interested in the notion of it being given in return for a donation to charity. I imagine that is being offered by a clergy souse or similar who had posession of this thing that they will never be able to use, and want some good to come of it. This is a common situation and often theological colleges or DDOs get given a bag a gear to go to a good home. It seems to me that the charitable cause that ought to be being benefited in this situation is someone about to set out on in ministry with not kit to start with. If looked at that way a very low offer would seem appropriate, with the donner taking leasure from knowing that they have helped set an ordinand up in tat as they offer themselves into God's service. Of course the donner might feel differently - perhaps they have not realy thought the situation through much.
In general it is unusual for CofE ordinands to be aquiring chasubles as curates generally are expected to wear the vestments in the church where they work. Stoles are obviously useful though. I have aquired many stoles from various sources, and all of them that are secondhand were freely given in the hope that they would be well used and be a blessing to me in ministry.

However it sounds to me like the chasuable you havebeen offered contains about £100 of materials and would retail new for around £500+. But do consider carefully - did you really want that style of chasuable, in that colour, with that embroidary? If you are paying the market rate then feel free to pay for the one you want, not just what is being offered.
Also consider that if it needs repair - how are you going to get it repaired. If you us it without repairing it, it will only get more damaged. I would caution against paying anything from it unless you know how you can bring it up to serviceable condition. However it is being offered for free then I would take it as otherwise it might struggle to find a loving home.
It deserves to be treated with respect - being a symbol of another priest's ministry, however that is not the same thing as it having a large monetary value.

Posted by Qoheleth. (# 9265) on :

What the rest said about this one.
Second-hand chasubles turn up periodically on ebay, which may help you price-mark it.

[ 09. February 2013, 20:58: Message edited by: Qoheleth. ]

Posted by Amos (# 44) on :

I agree with Codepoet that, as an ordinand YOU are likely to be a charitable cause.

Posted by Augustine the Aleut (# 1472) on :

Amos is correct in that, unless you have a substantial patrimony, you qualify as a charitable cause. Given that you are likely to be out some cash for its repair, i would think 50-100 pounds would be reasonable-- I bow to others' estimates as my memory of what a pound is worth is out of date.

You might want to take it around to an experienced restorer-- England has a pretty good network of needlework and embroidery craftspersons -- for its repair. That is is a fiddleback might limit the frequency of its usefulness, but it will always be handy for low Masses/ early morning or weekday celebrations. There is something to be said for vestments staying in use through generations of users-- it helps us with a sense of verticality in time.

Good luck with it and may it have years of use in your ministry.

Posted by The Silent Acolyte (# 1158) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Codepoet:
I imagine [it] is being offered by a clergy souse...

I've certainly know a few of those in my time.

Posted by Ebenezer (# 17463) on :

Thank you all for your replies, especially to Codepoet for such a long and thoughtful response.

quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
Given that you are likely to be out some cash for its repair, i would think 50-100 pounds would be reasonable-- I bow to others' estimates as my memory of what a pound is worth is out of date.

Do those currently using the pound agree with this suggested range?

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:

quote:
Originally posted by Codepoet:
I imagine [it] is being offered by a clergy souse...
I've certainly know a few of those in my time.

Maybe a few bottles of cream sherry, then.

Posted by Hairy Biker (# 12086) on :

What a shame. I was hoping this would be a discussion of the value of wearing vestments.
Why do some priest wear them and others not? What do they achieve?

Posted by Zacchaeus (# 14454) on :

Most parishes I know have vestments for their clergy - and they will match with the rest of the vestments and maybe the church hangings, sometimes even down to the stoles ...

Are you sure that this is going to be of use to you?

It may end up costing you more than a new one would by the time it has been properly repaired. Unless you have some handy seamstresses in you acquaintances?

TO keep it lovingly in use for worship is one thing but value-wise it could end up a bit of a white elephant.

Posted by Honest Ron Bacardi (# 38) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Ebenezer:
Thank you all for your replies, especially to Codepoet for such a long and thoughtful response.

quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
Given that you are likely to be out some cash for its repair, i would think 50-100 pounds would be reasonable-- I bow to others' estimates as my memory of what a pound is worth is out of date.
Do those currently using the pound agree with this suggested range?

Ebenezer - Augustine's suggestion may well be right. However, if the vestment is of some antiquarian merit it could be worth more. If so you may want to look at the website of a dealer in secondhand vestments such as Luzar Vestments (Google will help you). Bear in mind also that the repair of older vestments is a skilled business and you may need to find a skilled broderer, which is the general name for people who work on formal vestments of all kinds.

Posted by Zacchaeus (# 14454) on :

it is actually quite difficult - it may, as some have suggeted, have antique merit and value, on the other hand it might have no value at all.

It probably needs to be seen by somebody who knows what they are doing..

Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Hairy Biker:
What a shame. I was hoping this would be a discussion of the value of wearing vestments.
Why do some priest wear them and others not? What do they achieve?

Vestments are what priests wear for sacraments (as opposed to choir dress). Most priests will wear a stole, but some also wear copes and chasubles depending on how high church they are. I have attended very low Anglican churches where not even a stole was worn for Communion, however.

The Anglican norm as far as I can tell is surplice and tippet for choir dress, alb and stole for vestments (the stole being the vestment, not the alb).

Posted by Zach82 (# 3208) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Hairy Biker:
What a shame. I was hoping this would be a discussion of the value of wearing vestments.
Why do some priest wear them and others not? What do they achieve?

For more or less the same reasons police officers, delivery men, and airline stewardesses wear uniforms.

Vesture, posture, gesture, as they say.

Posted by The Silent Acolyte (# 1158) on :

And, gait. Don't forget gait.

I forgot to ask: sequins?! Did this alleged vestment come from from the showgirls who live down the street?

I'm getting a little too old for that whorey look. - from Showgirls

[ 11. February 2013, 21:10: Message buggered about with by: Doublethink ]

Posted by Lyda*Rose (# 4544) on :

I've seen sequins on old vestments. Though I believe they were known as spangles in the day.

Posted by Lyda*Rose (# 4544) on :

Oops! the American flag: "Its stripes were a holy lesson, its spangles a deathless creed"~ Julia Ward Howe

Posted by Spiffy (# 5267) on :

"Star-Spangled Banner" refers, of course, to the fact the stars are not clustered but kind of scattered across the blue field of the US flag. Spangles, then, are small pieces of glitz that were to be scattered across something. If they are cellulose, the garment is anywhere in age from about 1850-1950. If they are metal, it could be earlier. Sequin comes from the Arabic sikka, meaning coin and referring to the tradition in many cultures of sewing a coin or shiny piece of metal to a garment to show off wealth.

And now you know more than you ever wanted to about sequins.

Stupidity is also a gift of God, but one mustn't misuse it. - P*** John Paul II

quote:

IN OTHER WORDS READ THE THREAD AT THE TOP OF THE DAMN BOARD, thankyou.

Doublethink
P u r g a t o r y H o s t

[ 11. February 2013, 23:21: Message buggered about with by: Doublethink ]

Posted by Doublethink (# 1984) on :

I believe this thread properly belongs in Eccles. Hold onto your mitres !

Doublethink
Purgatory Host

Posted by Ebenezer (# 17463) on :

Thanks all. I'm now just about as muddled and uncertain as when I first posted this [Roll Eyes]

... but have at least improved my vocabulary somewhat: broderer, spangles ...

Posted by Augustine the Aleut (# 1472) on :

quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
And, gait. Don't forget gait.

I forgot to ask: sequins?! Did this alleged vestment come from from the showgirls who live down the street?

I'm getting a little too old for that whorey look. - from Showgirls

<small>[ 11. February 2013, 21:10: Message buggered about with by: Doublethink ]</small>

I wonder if shipmates might not be better advised to frequent museums such as the Victoria and Albert with its vestment displays, rather than the burlesque joints to which they might be more accustomed. It is Lent, no?

Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :

I can't comment on the spangled number in question, but had a lovely-ish moment last Tuesday as I celebrated Mass for the city clergy this week at my school ...

Given that this is a hot hot place, a humid humid place, I tend to the option of donning the (unspangled, relatively lightweight) chazzie after/at the Peace. By that time I am soaked from head to toe anyway.

This is a tiny (numerically speaking) diocese which has always had a two-strand-tradition: Sydney evangelicals who come up to preach the real gospel and us nasty librul carflicks who need saving. One of the former who came up 60+ years ago - and in many ways is a saint - shuffled up to me and asked, somewhat pointedly "What's that Green Thing™ you put on part way through the service?" It was not an innocent question: he would have seen it as an opportunity to open a conversation designed to redirect me from my wicked and degenerate ways.

Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Zappa:

One of the former who came up 60+ years ago - and in many ways is a saint - shuffled up to me and asked, somewhat pointedly "What's that Green Thing™ you put on part way through the service?" It was not an innocent question: he would have seen it as an opportunity to open a conversation designed to redirect me from my wicked and degenerate ways.

So how did you answer?

Posted by dj_ordinaire (# 4643) on :

I would hope you pointed him to the fact that St. Paul had one (though not, necessarily, in green). If the author of the Epistle to the Romans isn't sufficient to convince a Sydney Evo, I don't know what would be!

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