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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: "Benedictine Daily Prayer" - advice needed on use
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Stick Monitor
Apprentice
# 17253
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Posted
Hello, relatively new breviary user here, looking for advice. There are some "features" of BDP that I just cannot fathom. I'm pretty sure they are misprints or just badly-laid-out text, so could someone please help me interpret one such example?
Ref: Compline, page 931
quote:
Resp: Into your hands, O Lord, I commend my spirit (alleluia). Into. {squiggly V} For you have redeemed us, O Lord, God of truth (alleluia). I commend my spirit. Glory be. Into.
That looks like a mess to me. Are you literally supposed to just say the word "Into" by itself; or repeat the whole first refrain? Ditto "I commend my spirit. Glory be. Into"?
Any guidance much appreciated.
Posts: 50 | From: UK | Registered: Aug 2012
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
What comes before this? "Resp" looks like it means response, and there must be something it's responding to.
My guess would be that "Into." means to repeat the line -- but I'm not sure if you're meant to repeat just "Into thy hands O Lord" or the whole thing. The "I commend my spirit" being written out in full makes me think the former; then the second "Into." perhaps means to do the whole phrase.
This is a lot like the call-and-response that we have in the Orthodox church that's called the "prokeimenon."
The squiggly V stands for Verse -- which if it's like what we do, is a line from the psalms that's inserted between the recurring lines.
"Glory." refers to "Glory to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit." In our church we'd have "Glory" for that bit, and "N&E" for "Now and ever and unto ages of ages, Amen." If they're meant to be combine it would say "GNE".
Hope this doesn't muddy the waters further. I'm not a Benedictine and I don't play one on TV, but this does look very familiar to what we do.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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John Holding
Coffee and Cognac
# 158
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stick Monitor:
Hello, relatively new breviary user here, looking for advice. There are some "features" of BDP that I just cannot fathom. I'm pretty sure they are misprints or just badly-laid-out text, so could someone please help me interpret one such example?
Ref: Compline, page 931
quote:
Resp: Into your hands, O Lord, I commend my spirit (alleluia). Into. {squiggly V} For you have redeemed us, O Lord, God of truth (alleluia). I commend my spirit. Glory be. Into.
That looks like a mess to me. Are you literally supposed to just say the word "Into" by itself; or repeat the whole first refrain? Ditto "I commend my spirit. Glory be. Into"?
Any guidance much appreciated.
Very roughly, because it's many years since I used Compline, this Responsory goes like this:
Into your hands O Lord, I commend my spirit
Into your hands of Lord, I commend my spirit
For you have redeemed me, O lord, O God of truth
I commend my spirit
Glory be to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy SPirit
Into your hands O Lord, I commend my spirit
John
[ 18. February 2013, 00:22: Message edited by: John Holding ]
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MSHB
Shipmate
# 9228
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Posted
During Eastertide (Easter Sunday to Pentecost Sunday) the word Alleluia is added to those lines that mention it in parenthesis.
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MSHB: Member of the Shire Hobbit Brigade
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Trisagion
Shipmate
# 5235
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Posted
What John Holding said.
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ceterum autem censeo tabula delenda esse
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dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
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Posted
I use Benedictine Daily Prayer for most of my Offices and it is a lovely book indeed so welcome to it!
On the other hand, it does have a number of infuriating glitches, plus a few odd omissions. The use of the initial words of lines for responsories and so forth is however pretty standard.
Let us know how you get on, and whether you have any other questions... ![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif)
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Flinging wide the gates...
Posts: 10335 | From: Hanging in the balance of the reality of man | Registered: Jun 2003
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:
I use Benedictine Daily Prayer for most of my Offices and it is a lovely book indeed so welcome to it!
I use it mainly for the Vigils readings. One still hopes there will be a second, expanded edition of the book with the rest of the psalms put in and glitches fixed.
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Stick Monitor
Apprentice
# 17253
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Posted
Thanks for the input everyone, especially John Holding for writing it out in full with the statement/response lines distinguished. It seems obvo now but I was thrown by the repeat of the first line...
Into your hands O Lord, I commend my spirit
Into your hands of Lord, I commend my spirit
..as I only ever pray Compline alone and so it didn't click that they were different voices in a communal act of prayer.
What do you do when you are praying it alone? It feels wrong to repeat the line to yourself.
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stick Monitor:
Thanks for the input everyone, especially John Holding for writing it out in full with the statement/response lines distinguished. It seems obvo now but I was thrown by the repeat of the first line...
Into your hands O Lord, I commend my spirit
Into your hands of Lord, I commend my spirit
..as I only ever pray Compline alone and so it didn't click that they were different voices in a communal act of prayer.
What do you do when you are praying it alone? It feels wrong to repeat the line to yourself.
Some breviaries I've seen (such as the one from the Order of the Holy Cross) suggest (when praying alone) reciting any responsory as a simple versicle and response, so just two lines:
V. Into your hands, O Lord, I commend my spirit.
R. For you have redeemed me, O Lord, O God of truth.
The OHC breviary writes this out as an alternative, but the two lines are generally easy to pick out even if only the longer responsory form is used. So you basically leave out the repetitions and the Gloria Patri and just recite the two lines that are left.
What the responsory form does is juxtapose the two lines as a sort of meditation; this is most interesting when the two lines are from very different parts of the Bible or if one is Biblical and the other is patristic.
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Manipled Mutineer
Shipmate
# 11514
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Posted
I rarely pray offices with responsories like this (I stick to Laurel and Vespers) but when I do, I do say the responsory out in full. I mainly use the 1964 Hours of the Divine Office, but occasionally use the Short Breviary, which is a lineal ancestor of your book.
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Collecting Catholic and Anglo-
Catholic books
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
The standalone "Into", is an example of what is called an incipit. This is a common device in prayer books and other liturgical texts, used to indicate where a text is to be sung/said which is either commonly known or already printed in full elsewhere on the page. Usually an incipit consists of the first word or first few words of the text, and is often used as a name for the text: "Glory be", "Our Father", "Hail, Mary", "The Angel Cried", "It is truly meet", "Sanctus", "Agnus Dei", and many, many more.
There are many repetitions in troped hymns and responsories, as well as references to texts in rubrics - far too many to print everything out in full each time. Without incipits, most liturgical and prayer books would be much larger, heavier, and more costly than they currently are.
As for the repetitions when alone, these only sound strange if the office is said rather than sung. I would suggest learning the melodies and using those privately.
[ 19. February 2013, 07:50: Message edited by: The Scrumpmeister ]
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
Posts: 14741 | From: Greater Manchester, UK | Registered: Mar 2004
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
What comes before this? "Resp" looks like it means response, and there must be something it's responding to.
...
This is a lot like the call-and-response that we have in the Orthodox church that's called the "prokeimenon."
The "resp" is most likely an abbreviation of "responsory", which is the name given to this sort of "call and response" prayer structure. And you're absolutely right: the prokimen is a perfect example of a responsory. Some early English translations of the Liturgy called it just that but English-speaking Orthodox now seem to have settled on using either the Greek or Russian word, and that is now how it is usually known.
(We seem to be far too adept at using foreign words where there is already an existing and readily understood English word for the same thing. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that the Greek word "prokimenon" actually translates into English as "responsory". Does anybody know?)
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
Posts: 14741 | From: Greater Manchester, UK | Registered: Mar 2004
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Stick Monitor
Apprentice
# 17253
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Manipled Mutineer:
Referring to my message above - That would be Lauds of course. Blasted predictive text.
The proper response to that would of course be:
"That's another fine mess you've gotten us into!" ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Posts: 50 | From: UK | Registered: Aug 2012
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Stick Monitor
Apprentice
# 17253
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Scrumpmeister:
I would suggest learning the melodies and using those privately.
Thanks - I'd love to be able to sing/chant the office. Where would I find these melodies? It would have to be audio as I cannot read music for the life of me.
Posts: 50 | From: UK | Registered: Aug 2012
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Scrumpmeister:
We seem to be far too adept at using foreign words where there is already an existing and readily understood English word for the same thing.
Bit of Ortho-snobbery.
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by The Scrumpmeister:
We seem to be far too adept at using foreign words where there is already an existing and readily understood English word for the same thing.
Bit of Ortho-snobbery.
I suspect you're right, at least in part. I think that it perhaps originated in non-native English speakers simply being unaware of established western terms and importing the words that they did know into English speech. These terms then likely became common in the English-speaking Orthodox world, and were adopted by converts, which is understandable. The silliness comes when those converts, speaking to each other, or to non-Orthodox people, insist that the Greel/Russian word is the only correct word to use, as though using the western word makes them not properly Orthodox.
quote:
Originally posted by Stick Monitor:
quote:
Originally posted by The Scrumpmeister:
I would suggest learning the melodies and using those privately.
Thanks - I'd love to be able to sing/chant the office. Where would I find these melodies? It would have to be audio as I cannot read music for the life of me.
If you message me with your e-mail address, I'll see what I can do.
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
Posts: 14741 | From: Greater Manchester, UK | Registered: Mar 2004
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Pancho
Shipmate
# 13533
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Manipled Mutineer:
I rarely pray offices with responsories like this (I stick to Laurel and Vespers) but when I do, I do say the responsory out in full. I mainly use the 1964 Hours of the Divine Office, but occasionally use the Short Breviary, which is a lineal ancestor of your book.
I also say them out in full. I find the rhythm and repetition helpful for prayer. Besides, I get easily distracted and end up repeating myself anyways. I use the modern Liturgy of the Hours.
There should be music for Benedictine Daily Prayer's responsories in the Antiphonale Monasticum, both in the modern volumes from the last decade and in the 1934 edition.
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“But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the market places and calling to their playmates, ‘We piped to you, and you did not dance;
we wailed, and you did not mourn.’"
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Pancho
Shipmate
# 13533
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Posted
If the OP wants the melody specifically for the responsory at Compline I just remembered of a couple of places he might find it. One place he might find it is in the Liber Usualis.(I don't have time to check right now.) A copy of the 1961 edition is available online as a PDF from the Church Music Association of America website.
(Assuming the melody in the Liber matches the melody in the monastic office. I assume any diferences are minor.)
Music for Sunday Compline from the Liturgy of the Hours is available in print in the Liber Cantualis from Solesmes. Less expensive than purchasing the Antiphonale Monasticum.
Solesmes recorded many of the chants from this book on 2 CDs. The responsory is on volume 1 (Gregorian Melodies Popular Chant 1).
I don't know how well Compline in these books matches with Compline in Benedictine Daily Prayer.
I should've mentioned that the responsories and other chants in these books and in the Antiphnoale Monasticum are in Latin so it might take some work to match them up with the ones in Benedictine Daily Prayer. They are also in square notes not modern round notes.
I see that a similar topic to this thread came up on the Daily Office thread a couple of months ago beginning about here. Like the OP , one shipmate was also uncomfortable repeating the responsories on his own.
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“But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the market places and calling to their playmates, ‘We piped to you, and you did not dance;
we wailed, and you did not mourn.’"
Posts: 1988 | From: Alta California | Registered: Mar 2008
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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
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Posted
I say the whole thing as well, in the manner John Holding indicated above.
Posts: 8953 | From: Ad Midwestem | Registered: Sep 2006
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