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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Last Sunday After the Epiphany?
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BulldogSacristan
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# 11239
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Posted
What is it with actually calling this day the Feast of the Transfiguration? There is such a day, and it's August 6. We don't go around calling the Fourth Sunday of Advent the Feast of the Annunciation. What gives? And why has there been such a large adoption of this?
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BroJames
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# 9636
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Posted
I've heard it referred to as Transfiguration Sunday (which has a certain logic to it). I've never heard it referred to as The Feast of the Transfiguration which, I agree, we observe on 6th August.
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
The Sunday before Lent in the RCL has the option of the transfiguration gospel.
In the RC lectionary it is read on the second Sunday of Lent, and the RCL gives that as an option.
Does your church call the Sunday before Lent the Last Sunday after Epiphany? The C of E doesn't and has an Epiphany season that ends at Candlemas on 2 Feb.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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sonata3
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# 13653
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Posted
There is quite a bit of variation as to how different denominations, and different national churches, handle the end of Epiphany/beginning of Lent thing. RCL allows (or at least used to) for the Transfiguration Gospel to be used either on Lent II or the Sunday before Ash Wed. In traditional Anglican lectionaries, it appeared in neither place; thus Aug. 6 was the only Feast of the Transfiguration. ELCA's lectionary does just the opposite: designates the last Sun. in Epiphany as "Feast of the Transfiguration"; there is no provision for a celebration of that feast on August 6.
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"I prefer neurotic people; I like to hear rumblings beneath the surface." Stephen Sondheim
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Percy B
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# 17238
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Posted
I'm not sure, and I am sure some kind folk here will know - but the Transfiguration, I believe does not appear as a Sunday Gospel in the 1662 prayer book, and nor does the feast.
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Mary, a priest??
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leo
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# 1458
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Posted
Aug 6th was brought back as a holy day in the 1928 Prayer Book and, now, we link it with Hiroshima Day.
The gospel reading for the Sunday before Lent is new - and a good idea it is - it marks the time when Jesus set his face towards Jerusalem and his passion - a fitting thought as we forget Candlemas and set our faces towards Lent and Holy Week.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
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Anglican_Brat
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# 12349
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Posted
Anglo-catholics don't have a Festal Mass on August 6th because it's too close to August 15th (the Assumption)
Everyone else is on Summer holiday.
In which case, having the Last Sunday after Epiphany titled "The Transfiguration" might not be a bad idea since it's the only time when most people can be around to celebrate it.
As well, having the Transfiguration on the Last Sunday places the event in the context of Holy Week and the Easter Mystery. What exactly is the liturgical purpose of August 6th? To make the Transfiguration the forerunner of the Assumption? ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
[ 18. February 2013, 19:28: Message edited by: Anglican_Brat ]
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It's Reformation Day! Do your part to promote Christian unity and brotherly love and hug a schismatic.
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Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
What exactly is the liturgical purpose of August 6th? To make the Transfiguration the forerunner of the Assumption?
I don't know what the original purpose was, but what happened on August 6, 1945 ought to give it a new purpose, one steeped in irony. White and glistering indeed...
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Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.
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Oblatus
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# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alogon:
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
What exactly is the liturgical purpose of August 6th? To make the Transfiguration the forerunner of the Assumption?
I don't know what the original purpose was, but what happened on August 6, 1945 ought to give it a new purpose, one steeped in irony. White and glistering indeed...
Maybe I'm odd, but I've always thought the connection between the Transfiguration and Hiroshima rather weak. Bright light in both, that's all.
Yes, we need to remember Hiroshima and make sure it never happens again, but I see little direct connection between it and the Transfiguration. Seems strange to try to connect the two year after year.
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
Anglo-catholics don't have a Festal Mass on August 6th because it's too close to August 15th (the Assumption)
6 August is one of the 12 Great Feasts of the Orthodox Church.
That is a weird use of the phrase "Anglo-catholics" as though it described a separate denomination with unified practice.
I've certainly attended sung mass with incense on 6 August.
It is also the anniversary of Hiroshima, a highly appropriate occasion for corporate prayer.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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leo
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# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Oblatus:
quote:
Originally posted by Alogon:
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
What exactly is the liturgical purpose of August 6th? To make the Transfiguration the forerunner of the Assumption?
I don't know what the original purpose was, but what happened on August 6, 1945 ought to give it a new purpose, one steeped in irony. White and glistering indeed...
Maybe I'm odd, but I've always thought the connection between the Transfiguration and Hiroshima rather weak. Bright light in both, that's all.
Yes, we need to remember Hiroshima and make sure it never happens again, but I see little direct connection between it and the Transfiguration. Seems strange to try to connect the two year after year.
There is more to it than that, e.g. the transfiguration shows a man fully alive to his potential as the son of God.
Hiroshima shows when humans do when they deny their humanity and that of their victims.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
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Mockingbird
Mimus polyglottos navis
# 5818
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by BulldogSacristan:
What is it with actually calling this day the Feast of the Transfiguration? There is such a day, and it's August 6.
Well, we should scrap the August 6 transfiguration and just use the Last Sunday after Epiphany. quote:
We don't go around calling the Fourth Sunday of Advent the Feast of the Annunciation.
We should, and scrap the March 25th one. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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Forţon we sealon efestan ţas Easterlican ţing to asmeagenne and to gehealdanne, ţaet we magon cuman to ţam Easterlican daege, ţe aa byđ, mid fullum glaedscipe and wynsumnysse and ecere blisse.
Posts: 1443 | From: Between Broken Bow and Black Mesa | Registered: Apr 2004
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
The Annunciation gospel is only read on one Sunday in three on the Fourth Sunday of Advent.
No point in scrapping them, they are in the calendar. If you personally want to ignore them, that's up to you.
I'm still bemused by this "Anglo-catholics don't keep the Transfiguration on 6 August" business.
Even if there is no sung mass, it is in the daily office.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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BulldogSacristan
Shipmate
# 11239
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Posted
I actually agree with Anglican_brat. He or she said that there wasn't a festal mass, and at my place there isn't. There will, of course, be a low mass that day, but as he said, the choir is out of session, and if they're going to come back, it will be for Assumption and not the Transfiguration.
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Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mockingbird:
We should, and scrap the March 25th one.
Absolutely not! Perfect people die on the same day of the year as they are conceived. Didn't you know that? The ancients did.
This is why the atheists and pagans are all wet when they accuse us of syncretism or camouflage in celebrating Christmas on Dec. 25.
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Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.
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Ecclesiastical Flip-flop
Shipmate
# 10745
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Posted
I don't think it is an "either or" but a "both and" situation. Why should it stop at two opportunities in the year to commemorate the Transfiguration, both on the last Sunday of the Epiphany and the 6th of August?
Similarly, two opportunities in the year arise to commemorate St. John the Baptist, not only on the 24th of June, but also on one Sunday in Advent.
Needless to say that Hiroshima happened in 1945 on the same date of 6th of August - the feast of the Transfiguration - is coincidence, but both came to be considered with each other.
Whether or not to have two Solemn Masses in August, both on the 6th for the Transfiguration and on 15th for the Assumption is purely a practical consideration in northern hemisphere, because it is high summer and the holiday period. But there is nothing to stop us having said Masses on these dates if there are insufficient numbers of people - clergy, servers and choir etc. - to "staff" it.
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Joyeuses Pâques! Frohe Ostern! Buona Pasqua! ˇFelices Pascuas! Happy Easter!
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shamwari
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# 15556
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Posted
Can someone explain to me where I can go to find the reasoning behind the post Christmas lectionary readings? Up to Lent/
They confuse me no end.
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Ecclesiastical Flip-flop
Shipmate
# 10745
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Posted
Sorry to double-post, but to avoid ambiguity, I should say this leaves aside the 29th August, when of course, it is the Beheading of St. John the Baptist which is commemorated, rather than his Nativity.
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Joyeuses Pâques! Frohe Ostern! Buona Pasqua! ˇFelices Pascuas! Happy Easter!
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Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513
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Posted
Before eliminating the observance on Aug. 6, shouldn't we ask members of parishes dedicated to the Transfiguration how they'd feel about losing their feast of title, or having it become peripatetic?
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Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.
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Mama Thomas
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# 10170
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Posted
I was reading somewhere that the Transfiguration really came into its own in the 19th and 20th centuries. It is older than those centuries of course, but the Transfiguration really has fired the Christian imagination since then, even a late pope of Rome and the Transfiguration to the rosary, and of course people who have never been to church know the name because of J.K. Rowling.
It was a beautiful idea to bookend Epiphany between the Baptism and the Transfiguration. Wonderful teaching opportunity. It works beautifully.
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All hearts are open, all desires known
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Ceremoniar
Shipmate
# 13596
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mama Thomas:
I was reading somewhere that the Transfiguration really came into its own in the 19th and 20th centuries. It is older than those centuries of course, but the Transfiguration really has fired the Christian imagination since then, even a late pope of Rome and the Transfiguration to the rosary...
![[Confused]](confused.gif) What is this about the pope, Transfiguration and rosary? Pope Paul VI died on the feast of the Transfiguration in 1978, but I am guessing that is not what you mean.
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seasick
...over the edge
# 48
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Posted
I'm assuming he's referring to the introduction by Bl John Paul II of the luminous mysteries of the rosary, of which the Transfiguration is one.
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We believe there is, and always was, in every Christian Church, ... an outward priesthood, ordained by Jesus Christ, and an outward sacrifice offered therein. - John Wesley
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Mama Thomas
Shipmate
# 10170
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Posted
Yes, that's it. Sorry, I never notice my many egregious typos (if ever) until they're posted, so what I say seldom makes sense. But, I have seen Episcopal Churches use white on the Sunday next before Advent, which gives the propers of Christ the King and often is celebrated as such, especially since the newish lectionary came out.
Also white in many places is the Transfiguration on the Sunday formerly and sometimes known as Quinquagesima. (The word is simply too cool to throw away...what don't they get?!)Even though the MOTR Episcopal "Kalendar" ordered from a now Methodist publishing house continues to print the day green numbers, but the hymns are all Transfiguration.
Strangely, the 1982 has no hymns specifically for that feast, but there are a couple in Epiphany, e.g. "O Wondrous Type" which are certainly Transfiguration, and since they are printed in "Epiphany" that shows that the committee at the time presumed it would be celebrated then, I would think, rather than in August where the Prayer Book puts it. Odd it was never straightened out.
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All hearts are open, all desires known
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Bos Loquax
Shipmate
# 16602
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mama Thomas:
Yes, that's it. Sorry, I never notice my many egregious typos (if ever) until they're posted, so what I say seldom makes sense. But, I have seen Episcopal Churches use white on the Sunday next before Advent, which gives the propers of Christ the King and often is celebrated as such, especially since the newish lectionary came out.
Also white in many places is the Transfiguration on the Sunday formerly and sometimes known as Quinquagesima. (The word is simply too cool to throw away...what don't they get?!)Even though the MOTR Episcopal "Kalendar" ordered from a now Methodist publishing house continues to print the day green numbers, but the hymns are all Transfiguration.
I've seen the same thing for these Sundays, and I've seen wall calendars that do similar things with colors and titles, especially since that lectionary is even more explicit about singling out these Sundays.
quote:
Strangely, the 1982 has no hymns specifically for that feast, but there are a couple in Epiphany, e.g. "O Wondrous Type" which are certainly Transfiguration, and since they are printed in "Epiphany" that shows that the committee at the time presumed it would be celebrated then, I would think, rather than in August where the Prayer Book puts it. Odd it was never straightened out.
Also strangely, at least to me, the Transfiguration-flavored hymns do not form a bloc, though they come close. The arrangement of the hymns in the Epiphany section (#116-#139) looks fairly motley to me--does anyone know how these were arranged? "Alleluia, song of gladness," which I would've placed last, is at #122-123; #121 is most appropriate for the Baptism of Our Lord, and #124 is most appropriate for the feast of the Epiphany.
These Transfiguration hymns are #129-130 ("Christ upon the mountain peak"), #133-134 ("O Light of Light" for #133--but "O light of Light" for #134), #135 in part ("Songs of thankfulness and praise"--see below), and #136-137 (that aforementioned "O wondrous type!").
(Bloc notes: #131-132 is more about the three most frequent Epiphany associations, #138 is most about the wedding at Cana, and #139 is most about the baptism.)
The version of #135 in this hymnal is an oddity, and finding such oddities was the main reason that I scanned the words of every hymn in this section. I was wondering if there were any hymns (whether originally composed as such or modified) that bridged Epiphany and the Transfiguration.
Stanzas 1-3 are from Christopher Wordsworth (1807-1885). They mention, among other things such as healing the sick, these three most frequent associations with Epiphany--the visit of the Magi (stanza 1), the baptism (stanza 2), the wedding (also stanza 2--the mapping is not one stanza per association).
Stanza 4 is from F. Bland Tucker (1895-1984) and is all about later stuff: the Transfiguration, followed by the journey to Jerusalem and then "cross and Easter Day."
My experience hasn't been that broad, but I have no memory of using any Transfiguration-flavored hymns during the general season after Epiphany (that is, excluding the last Sunday) as if someone had picked hymns at random from that section. (My experience, anyway, has been that once we pass the Baptism of Our Lord and, when it appears in the lectionary, the Sunday when the gospel reading concerns the wedding, I find mostly general "green season" hymns until the Last Sunday.)
I do have a vague memory of seeing "Songs of thankfulness and praise" listed in a program of a parish that uses this hymnal, though I'm less sure if this listing omitted verse 4, and I'm unsure of when in the liturgical year it was used.
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Anglican_Brat
Shipmate
# 12349
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by shamwari:
Can someone explain to me where I can go to find the reasoning behind the post Christmas lectionary readings? Up to Lent/
They confuse me no end.
There is no reasoning, because there is no "Epiphany Season" as my liturgy prof told me.
After the Epiphany (January 6th), technically, the time before Ash Wednesday is "Ordinary Time". Like Ordinary Time after Pentecost, the aim is to read passages chronologically through one Gospel each year. In Year C, however, the RCL committee decided to stick the Wedding of Cana story after Epiphany (John is spread out weirdly through all three years), and so preachers seem to make hay out of it being a "season of Epiphany."
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Mama Thomas
Shipmate
# 10170
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Posted
But that is a point. Unlike the CofE or the RCC, TEC's Epiphany season really can be Epiphany season, or THE SEASON after Epiphany. Preachers love it because if it is short as this past one was, one can make much of the season of our Lord's manifestations in Scripture. It's so good to see how Jesus does all this doing all the things in the Luminous Mysterious.
I know many love the title "ordinary time" but I know clergy, even bishops, who think that the connotations of the word "ordinary" in the English language sound less than appealing.
I also know people in the CofE were glad to get back to Trinity season, (or season after Trinity) after being officially Pentecost for 25 years but many people still calling it "Trinity season" despite the ASB.
The concept of "ordinary time," (I know, in Continental languages it means consecutive) hasn't really caught on in the Anglosphere except in the English-speaking RC world.
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All hearts are open, all desires known
Posts: 3742 | From: Somewhere far away | Registered: Aug 2005
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
Er, Mama...
The C of E has called the green, ordinary Sundays following Eastertide "Sundays after Trinity" since 2000 when Common Worship and the 3 year calendar were introduced.
The Epiphany season ends at Candlemas for the C of E.
My mum died on 25 March. I met my other half on the eve of 6 August. You bet I'm always going to celebrate the days.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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BulldogSacristan
Shipmate
# 11239
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Posted
I wish we could get Sundays After Trinity back. It makes more sense. And I think we're one of the few churches in the world to use that name.
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Jon in the Nati
Shipmate
# 15849
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Posted
quote:
Maybe I'm odd, but I've always thought the connection between the Transfiguration and Hiroshima rather weak. Bright light in both, that's all.
Yes, we need to remember Hiroshima and make sure it never happens again, but I see little direct connection between it and the Transfiguration. Seems strange to try to connect the two year after year.
Indeed. You may know, Oblatus (being the Divine Office guru you are) that in Benedictine Daily Prayer the collect for the Transfiguration makes explicit the connection between Hiroshima and the Transfiguration, in one of the worst collects I have ever read. That was (among other things) the reason I stopped using that book and switched to the Catholic LOTH.
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Homer: Aww, this isn't about Jesus, is it?
Lovejoy: All things are about Jesus, Homer. Except this.
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
Just as a matter of interest, what on earth in LOTH? I've googled and nothing relevant.
The C of E does have Sundays after Trinity. It does not call them a Trinity Season. It seems to me it is perfectly a Good Thing to have a time which is not any Season at all: then the genuine Seasons can be marked as something exceptional.
Personally I'm not impressed by the C of E creating an Epiphany Season and a sort-of-season between All Saints and Advent. Using Daily Prayer, after the first week, I revert to using the propers for Ordinary Time.)
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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Basilica
Shipmate
# 16965
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
Just as a matter of interest, what on earth in LOTH? I've googled and nothing relevant.
Liturgy of the Hours.
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
What exactly is the liturgical purpose of August 6th? To make the Transfiguration the forerunner of the Assumption?
I don't it was the original reason but, given the meaning of these two feasts, it seems a rather felicitous connection. Why the shock?
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
quote:
I don't it was
Doubt, obviously.
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
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Anglican_Brat
Shipmate
# 12349
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Scrumpmeister:
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
What exactly is the liturgical purpose of August 6th? To make the Transfiguration the forerunner of the Assumption?
I don't it was the original reason but, given the meaning of these two feasts, it seems a rather felicitous connection. Why the shock?
Surely to calm Protestant objections, the Transfiguration of Our Lord should take precedence over Our Lady's Assumption.
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It's Reformation Day! Do your part to promote Christian unity and brotherly love and hug a schismatic.
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
quote:
Originally posted by The Scrumpmeister:
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
What exactly is the liturgical purpose of August 6th? To make the Transfiguration the forerunner of the Assumption?
I don't it was the original reason but, given the meaning of these two feasts, it seems a rather felicitous connection. Why the shock?
Surely to calm Protestant objections, the Transfiguration of Our Lord should take precedence over Our Lady's Assumption.
This isn't a question of precedence but the simple theological link between the two events and our celebration of them as feasts.
In the Transfiguration, the Saviour shows Himself as the fulfilment of both law and prophecy (hence Moses and Elijah) but more importantly reveals to us a glimpse of human nature as it ought to be: man in his deified state, reflecting the energies of God. This was not a miracle for its own sake but was a revelation for the sake of showing to us what we are called to be as human beings, and what we are enabled to be as Christians, should we claim our baptismal adoption as children of the Father and strive to constantly unite ourselves to the life and energies of God. What we see in the Transfiguration is God's intention for mankind, and what we see in the Assumption is the firstfruits of that as outworked in the life of the Mother of God.
I have no evidence that the feasts were deliberately juxtaposed in this way but I think that it would be unfortunate to separate them.
As for the suggestion that Protestant objections constitute sufficient warrant for this, well... being polite, I'll just say that the surety of that isn't quite so apparent to me.
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
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Ecclesiastical Flip-flop
Shipmate
# 10745
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Posted
Shipmates may or not be aware that from the feast of the Transfiguration on 6 August to the Triumph of the Holy Cross on 14 September are 40 days; so there is a link there. There are several periods of 40 days each year in the Church's Kalendar.
The feast of the Assumption was defined for 15th August by Pope Pius XII in 1950. I am too young to know whether or not the date of 15 August for the Assumption was already in the Kalendar.
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Joyeuses Pâques! Frohe Ostern! Buona Pasqua! ˇFelices Pascuas! Happy Easter!
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop:
Shipmates may or not be aware that from the feast of the Transfiguration on 6 August to the Triumph of the Holy Cross on 14 September are 40 days; so there is a link there. There are several periods of 40 days each year in the Church's Kalendar.
The feast of the Assumption was defined for 15th August by Pope Pius XII in 1950. I am too young to know whether or not the date of 15 August for the Assumption was already in the Kalendar.
I am fairly sure that the date is ancient - the Orthodox have had it as 'The Dormition' on that date. Medieval England kept this date as 'Our lady in Harvest'.
St. Mary Maggiore in Rome, kept it in the 7th century and added an octave in the 8th. according to this,
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop:
The feast of the Assumption was defined for 15th August by Pope Pius XII in 1950. I am too young to know whether or not the date of 15 August for the Assumption was already in the Kalendar.
I am fairly sure that the date is ancient - the Orthodox have had it as 'The Dormition' on that date. Medieval England kept this date as 'Our lady in Harvest'.
St. Mary Maggiore in Rome, kept it in the 7th century and added an octave in the 8th. according to this,
You're quite right, leo. The feast of the Assumption was not defined by Pope Pius XII. It had already been an established feast in east and west for long over a millennium.
What he defined was the teaching of the Assumption as dogma binding on all Catholics, and then in terms that were not free of controversy.
[ 22. February 2013, 20:08: Message edited by: The Scrumpmeister ]
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
Posts: 14741 | From: Greater Manchester, UK | Registered: Mar 2004
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Ceremoniar
Shipmate
# 13596
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Posted
In the Extarordinary Form of the Roman Rite, today is the Ember Saturday in Lent. The gospel today is the Transfiguration, and one of the readings in the breviary is a wonderful meditation on that event by St. Leo the Great.
Ironically, St. Leo tied the Transfiguration in with the Petrine confession and office in the same reading. Yesterday was the feast of the Chair of St. Peter in both the Extraordinary and Ordinary Forms. The two commemorations generally are not in such close proximity, but their only being a day apart this year certainly made St. Leo's meditation very fitting, especially with an upcoming conclave.
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Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
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Posted
Transfiguration Sunday is a part of the Epiphany season. The paraments are white. Therefore it is a Festival.
Posts: 2193 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011
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malik3000
Shipmate
# 11437
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Posted
I could be wrong (I'm not home near my ecclesiantical library at the moment), but i was under the impression that for Lutherans the only Feast of the Transfiguration was the one on the Sunday before Lent, and August 6 is not so observed. Of course i am open to correction.
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God = love.
Otherwise, things are not just black or white.
Posts: 3149 | From: North America | Registered: May 2006
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Ecclesiastical Flip-flop
Shipmate
# 10745
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Scrumpmeister:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop:
The feast of the Assumption was defined for 15th August by Pope Pius XII in 1950. I am too young to know whether or not the date of 15 August for the Assumption was already in the Kalendar.
I am fairly sure that the date is ancient - the Orthodox have had it as 'The Dormition' on that date. Medieval England kept this date as 'Our lady in Harvest'.
St. Mary Maggiore in Rome, kept it in the 7th century and added an octave in the 8th. according to this,
You're quite right, leo. The feast of the Assumption was not defined by Pope Pius XII. It had already been an established feast in east and west for long over a millennium.
What he defined was the teaching of the Assumption as dogma binding on all Catholics, and then in terms that were not free of controversy.
Thanks for clarification. Scrumpmeister, that's what I meant about Pius XII defining dogma, but I did not express myself very well.
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Joyeuses Pâques! Frohe Ostern! Buona Pasqua! ˇFelices Pascuas! Happy Easter!
Posts: 1946 | From: Surrey UK | Registered: Dec 2005
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
Transfiguration Sunday is a part of the Epiphany season. The paraments are white. Therefore it is a Festival.
Green in England ( C of E) because it is the last Sunday before Lent.
(Or purple or blue if you call it Sexagesima and use the old services with the new lectionary.)
If you are going to argue that it is a festival merely on the basis of one reading, then you should have white on Advent 4 on the basis that the gospel is, variously, the Annunciation or the visitation, which both have their own feast days at other times.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
And in the Roman lectionary (from which the RCL is derived) the Transfiguration gospel is read today, Second Sunday in Lent, when the liturgical colour is purple. Transfiguration on Lent 2 is also an option in RCL, I believe.
I'm not at all keen on thinking every Sunday is part of a season. It's like keeping the Christmas decorations up all year (or changing them regularly).
It's nice to have a time which isn't something special. Then you can appreciate the special times when they occur.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
And in the Roman lectionary (from which the RCL is derived) the Transfiguration gospel is read today, Second Sunday in Lent, when the liturgical colour is purple. Transfiguration on Lent 2 is also an option in RCL, I believe.
It is, but notably the first and second readings remain the same, even in the Roman Catholic Lectionary for Mass.
Posts: 8953 | From: Ad Midwestem | Registered: Sep 2006
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
The reason the Transfiguration gospel comes near the start of Lent is because it foretells both the passion and the glory of Christ. It is not a feast in its own right.
The sermon I heard on the Sunday before Lent this year compared the Transfiguration closely to the garden of Gethsemane.
Does anyone know if there is any precedent for using the Transfiguration gospel at the start of Lent prior to the Vatican II reforms?
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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Ceremoniar
Shipmate
# 13596
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
The reason the Transfiguration gospel comes near the start of Lent is because it foretells both the passion and the glory of Christ. It is not a feast in its own right.
The sermon I heard on the Sunday before Lent this year compared the Transfiguration closely to the garden of Gethsemane.
Does anyone know if there is any precedent for using the Transfiguration gospel at the start of Lent prior to the Vatican II reforms?
Yes, it is the gospel for the Second Sunday in Lent in the Extraordinary Form, as well.
Posts: 1240 | From: U.S. | Registered: Apr 2008
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Forthview
Shipmate
# 12376
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Posted
My oldest Missal dates from 1846.The Gospel passage read on the Second Sunday of Lent is indeed that of the Transfiguration
The 6th August is however the date of the Feast of the Transfiguration as given also in the Missal of 1846 -there is in this French Missal a description of the Feast in the following terms :
'The presence of Moses and Elijah along with Jesus on Mount Tabor indicates the union between the Law,the Prophets and the Gospel.But soon Moses and Elijah disappear leaving only Christ indicating to us that the Law gives way to the Gospel and the Prophets to Jesus Christ.'
Posts: 3444 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2007
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Ceremoniar
Shipmate
# 13596
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Posted
Yes, the feast on 6 August dates to the seventh century, though it was not on the universal kalendar until the late middle ages. The gospel on the Second Sunday in Lent dates to an earlier period.
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Forthview:
My oldest Missal dates from 1846.The Gospel passage read on the Second Sunday of Lent is indeed that of the Transfiguration
I wonder if that was the case with the prereformation Missals such as Sarum? The readings in the BCP (1662) are usually taken from those AIUI, and the Transfiguration gospel doesn't feature during Lent. I don't know about any other time, but I don't think 1662 includes the Feast on 6 August except as a 'black letter' date in the Calendar.
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