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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: (Ex) alcoholic priests and the Eucharist?
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Offeiriad
Ship's Arboriculturalist
# 14031
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Posted
A friend who is a (reformed) alcoholic is considering seeking (Anglican) ordination. Has anybody any practical experience or knowledge of how she then copes with the role of celebrant at an Anglican Eucharist?
Apologies if this topic has been fully discussed before, though I can't believe this is the first such situation to arise. All ideas/observations welcome!
[ 25. February 2013, 08:09: Message edited by: Oferyas ]
Posts: 1426 | From: La France profonde | Registered: Aug 2008
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gog
Shipmate
# 15615
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Posted
One person I know who took services on occasion got along with this fine.
They would intinct the wafer for them to receive.
After the distribution they would have a server or church warden (or other respected person) consume the wine. (this being done at times by that person receive last and draining the chalice).
Hope this helps. I think it is more a case of being honest about it, and being aware of the using and putting plans in place to get round them.
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
A now-deceased RC priest I knew well, who had become a Friend of Bill after some vicissitudes, used the Vatican-approved practice of mustum, fermentation-suspended grape juice, viz., an extremely-low alcohol version of wine, and he told me it presented no problem to him. The problem was that the cupboard at his church contained the normal-strength wine, and he entrusted the key to the sacristan; extraordinary ministers worked the chalice at masses with communion in both species.Here's the US RC bishops' note on this.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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Zacchaeus
Shipmate
# 14454
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Posted
Many clergy in the uk today, serve several churches. Which means that they can't consume the wine because of issues of drink driving.
As said above it is quite common practice to have authorised persons do it instead.
In our group it varies between server, eucharistic ministers and the churchwarden who is last recieve.
Posts: 1905 | From: the back of beyond | Registered: Jan 2009
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zacchaeus:
Many clergy in the uk today, serve several churches. Which means that they can't consume the wine because of issues of drink driving.
As said above it is quite common practice to have authorised persons do it instead.
In our group it varies between server, eucharistic ministers and the churchwarden who is last recieve.
This is what I do on multiple communion days. The stories of gardei lurking round road-corners waiting to catch priests soused on The Precious Blood abound still!
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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Adam.
Like as the
# 4991
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Posted
I know a few priests in recovery. 12-step spirituality and human formation dovetail beautifully, and (in my limited experience) lead to very fruitful pastoral ministry. Ritually, some are able to take a small amount of wine (making sure someone else is available to help consume whatever remains), others use mustum.
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Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
Preaching blog
Posts: 8164 | From: Notre Dame, IN | Registered: Sep 2003
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Offeiriad
Ship's Arboriculturalist
# 14031
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Posted
Thank you all for these postings, as well as for some pms.
The real issue is not so much the consuming of remains (which can be done by others), but of the actual partaking of Holy Communion as celebrant. As a life-long liturgy geek I am ashamed to say I had never heard of the term mustum, nor of this provision in an RC context. Something similar must be (informally?) allowable in an Anglican setting, or are we more Catholic than the RCs?
Anyway, many thanks - any further observations, anybody?
Posts: 1426 | From: La France profonde | Registered: Aug 2008
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Oferyas:
Thank you all for these postings, as well as for some pms.
The real issue is not so much the consuming of remains (which can be done by others), but of the actual partaking of Holy Communion as celebrant. As a life-long liturgy geek I am ashamed to say I had never heard of the term mustum, nor of this provision in an RC context. Something similar must be (informally?) allowable in an Anglican setting, or are we more Catholic than the RCs?
Anyway, many thanks - any further observations, anybody?
When much younger, in my acolyte days, I served an older, quite grumpy but good-hearted (a chaplain in WWII, he had been held as a POW), cleric whom, I noticed, only raised the chalice to his lips for what I then thought was a sip. The other server and myself, both about 15, were required to finish off the chalice and I was asked to clean it at ablutions. I thought this curious at the time, but I learned some years afterward was that he was a Friend of Bill and had not taken wine while celebrating since he went dry.
Looking through the detailled RC provisions (signed off by then-Cardinal Ratzinger), I see that in certain cases, a priest could be exempted from taking the wine while celebrating. It seems that this elderly priest had a similar exemption, either from the bishop or himself. I recall that he ensured that the other server and I had breakfast with him, where he ensured that the tiddly teenagers had plenty of coffee and cholesterol and war stories before he let us stagger home.
The instruction ends with information as to where mustum can be ordered in the US.
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Oferyas:
Thank you all for these postings, as well as for some pms.
The real issue is not so much the consuming of remains (which can be done by others), but of the actual partaking of Holy Communion as celebrant. As a life-long liturgy geek I am ashamed to say I had never heard of the term mustum, nor of this provision in an RC context. Something similar must be (informally?) allowable in an Anglican setting, or are we more Catholic than the RCs?
Anyway, many thanks - any further observations, anybody?
If your friend became a Methodist he wouldn't have this problem; we still use non-alcoholic wine at Communion (=Eucharist)! This is one of the reasons why. If your friend is fairly MOTR in terms of church practice and theology he'll find the two churches are quite similar theologically (although quite different sociallly and psychologically, I think). You have to become a lay preacher before before seeking ordination.
(I'm sorry if this is a tangent, but I'm sure there was a similar question to yours asked a while ago, and I found it odd that if the person concerned were so deeply involved in church life as to consider seeking ordination, they didn't just go and ask a priest that they knew for this information. The most obvious question is, how does this person take Communion now?? Surely, the priest and Communion assistants at church already know the man has this issue, because he's already arranged to be served non-alcoholic wine whenever it's time for Communion...? And if he doesn't feel spiritually able to take Communion now, why would he want a job where he has to provide it for other people?
I don't mean to be nosey, but it sounds a bit peculiar to me. I'm not an Anglican, so probably missing something really obvious! If it's too complicated or too personal, you don't have to respond.)
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Squirrel
Shipmate
# 3040
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Posted
I knew a Roman Catholic priest who was a recovering alcoholic. At Mass he'd put the chalice to his lips, tip his head back as if he were drinking from it, then pass the cup to a eucharistic minister who'd polish it off.
One day he did this and his false teeth fell into the chalice.
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"The moral is to the physical as three is to one."
- Napoleon
"Five to one."
- George S. Patton
Posts: 1014 | From: Gotham City - Brain of the Great Satan | Registered: Jul 2002
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Offeiriad
Ship's Arboriculturalist
# 14031
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Posted
To briefly answer the earlier points....
"(why) they didn't just go and ask a priest that they knew for this information." They did. Me. I didn't have a complete answer, so came on here to consult others.
"Surely, the priest and Communion assistants at church already know the man has this issue, because he's already arranged to be served non-alcoholic wine whenever it's time for Communion...?" Never seen this happen in an Anglican context. To provide a separate chalice for just one person would be a very public advertising of one person's personal issue. ATM she receives in one Kind.
"And if he doesn't feel spiritually able to take Communion now, why would he want a job where he has to provide it for other people?" It's not seen as a 'job that's wanted', but as a vocation that feels it needs to be answered.
Posts: 1426 | From: La France profonde | Registered: Aug 2008
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Percy B
Shipmate
# 17238
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Posted
I have a priest friend who is alcoholic. He worked out how to deal with celebrating for himself, that is to say worked out what he in his personal situation could manage. This was receiving a tiny amount himself and others doing the ablutions.
I suspect anyone going forward to ordination needs to consider what they could cope with. They will find people kind and understanding. It is not an uncommon problem among the clergy.
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Mary, a priest??
Posts: 582 | From: Nudrug | Registered: Jul 2012
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Oferyas:
"Surely, the priest and Communion assistants at church already know the man has this issue, because he's already arranged to be served non-alcoholic wine whenever it's time for Communion...?" Never seen this happen in an Anglican context. To provide a separate chalice for just one person would be a very public advertising of one person's personal issue. ATM she receives in one Kind.
I've been to a city-centre CofE parish church where they had different options: alcoholic, non-alcoholic, and gluten-free wine. (These were in little cups.) Perhaps this is rare? Of course, it's not just ex-alcoholics who have issues with alcohol.
quote:
"And if he doesn't feel spiritually able to take Communion now, why would he want a job where he has to provide it for other people?" It's not seen as a 'job that's wanted', but as a vocation that feels it needs to be answered.
In my understanding of church life, the people who go forward for ordination have already given lots of time and effort to the church, and are certainly already taking Communion. If you're a regular, devout churchgoer who never takes Communion this is likely to raise questions, because Communion isn't supposed to be an optional extra for Christians. But it could be that Anglican churchgoers and clergy just mind their own business and don't pay much attention to what other people in the pews are doing or not doing!
If this man is still on the fringes of CofE life and doesn't have much of a connection with the other people in this congregation then he might as well go off and explore how other churches do things, because, as I say, the issue of alcoholic wine doesn't come up in certain other denominations.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Percy B
Shipmate
# 17238
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Posted
Perhaps, Svitlana, at present he chooses just to receive in one kind when receiving communion, a perfectly legitimate thing to do.
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Mary, a priest??
Posts: 582 | From: Nudrug | Registered: Jul 2012
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
Some people eat the bread but skip the wine.
There are plenty of reasons why they might want to do that, and we don't ever ask them why.
[ 26. February 2013, 13:26: Message edited by: ken ]
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
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TomM
Shipmate
# 4618
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Posted
And there are 'traditionalist' places (Anglican and Roman Catholic) where communicating in the one species only is the norm for the laity, never mind exceptional.
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Percy B
Shipmate
# 17238
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Posted
Exactly, Ken, and more clearly put !
As to the point Svitlana mKes about people already doing lots already before going forward to ordination, I think that is sometimes, but not always true.
Sometimes I think good candidates are those who a not too churchy.
Not all are deeply involved in church life. Some younger people - university students, for example, feel a call but aren't on PCCs or singing in choirs or leading house groups.
I do not think it is held against people if they are not involved in the day to day stuff of running churches. That can come later.
What is more important I think is a clear sense of call and an appreciation of the breadth of forms of Christian discipleship.
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Mary, a priest??
Posts: 582 | From: Nudrug | Registered: Jul 2012
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Pyx_e
Quixotic Tilter
# 57
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Posted
A few points in no order. I have in the past; not taken any of the wine (or held the cup), very slightly intincted and (as I have done for a while) kissed the cup. The first is fine and I (receiving in one kind) have fully received. The second was not right for me and I stopped. The last (kissing) fits me the best. I would not encourage any recovering alcoholic to intinct or taste the wine in anyway. It was not a mistake but it was not right for me.
At my home church (after so many years) they just do the ablutions. Elsewhere I always ask the servers to finish the wine and make things tidy again. I always explain why, I have never had a problem, everyone has been fine, calm and thoughtful. It has provoked many conversations over that other great sacrament, coffee.
I have a letter from my Bishop giving me permission to use grape juice (asked for by my congregation so “you can share with us”). In over ten years I have done so four times and always in less formal settings.
There are many things that my alcoholism stops me from partaking fully in (which is mostly a good thing) but the Eucharist is not one of them. I am not worthy to gather up the crumbs from His table. That I dare reach over the altar into heaven is more than I hoped for or deserved. To kiss the cup that holds Him is close enough in oh so many ways.
Fly Safe, Pyx_e.
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It is better to be Kind than right.
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
*snip*
I've been to a city-centre CofE parish church where they had different options: alcoholic, non-alcoholic, and gluten-free wine. (These were in little cups.) Perhaps this is rare? Of course, it's not just ex-alcoholics who have issues with alcohol.
*more snip*
I would say that I have never heard of this in Anglican churches in Canada nor in the US, nor in the Irish Republic, all countries where I've had about 40 years of churchgoing. Perhaps it happens in parts of England???
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Percy B
Shipmate
# 17238
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Posted
That is a moving word, thank you Pyx-e.
At a church I attended where a priest was an alcoholic it was decided servers would always do the washing up, never the clergy. In that way he was not singled out.
Incidentally he would never use the term 'ex alcoholic' he always said he was an alcoholic, that was his 'state'. In similar vein he was angry when described as a 'reformed' alcoholic. He said that carried too much baggage in the terminology. I am not suggesting you will agree with these points, but I respected him for what he said.
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Mary, a priest??
Posts: 582 | From: Nudrug | Registered: Jul 2012
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Percy B:
As to the point Svitlana mKes about people already doing lots already before going forward to ordination, I think that is sometimes, but not always true.
Sometimes I think good candidates are those who a not too churchy.
Not all are deeply involved in church life. Some younger people - university students, for example, feel a call but aren't on PCCs or singing in choirs or leading house groups.
I do not think it is held against people if they are not involved in the day to day stuff of running churches. That can come later.
What is more important I think is a clear sense of call and an appreciation of the breadth of forms of Christian discipleship.
Ah! I see. This is very different from the Methodist Church. Methodist candidates for the ministry always have to be local preachers first (although this can be fast-forwarded in some cases, I think). And before becoming a local preacher, an individual has often been involved in congregational life as someone who reads the lessons or the prayers of intercession, then perhaps a church steward or as a worship leader, etc.
The idea of someone becoming a priest who's never been very visible or available in their own local church isn't a concept I'm used to. Very interesting!
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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deano
princess
# 12063
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Posted
I am not a member of the clergy, but as a Friend of Bill, I just take the bread not the wine because a thimble full is too much and a barrel full is never enough. My rector said as long as one of the species were taken, then the Eucharist was valid.
I can second the point about not being called a reformed or recovered alcoholic. You never are I'm afraid, I am in recovery or recovering. I will never not be an alcoholic, no matter how years of sobriety I attain.
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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
quote:
Originally posted by Percy B:
As to the point Svitlana mKes about people already doing lots already before going forward to ordination, I think that is sometimes, but not always true.
Sometimes I think good candidates are those who a not too churchy.
Not all are deeply involved in church life. Some younger people - university students, for example, feel a call but aren't on PCCs or singing in choirs or leading house groups.
I do not think it is held against people if they are not involved in the day to day stuff of running churches. That can come later.
What is more important I think is a clear sense of call and an appreciation of the breadth of forms of Christian discipleship.
Ah! I see. This is very different from the Methodist Church. Methodist candidates for the ministry always have to be local preachers first (although this can be fast-forwarded in some cases, I think). And before becoming a local preacher, an individual has often been involved in congregational life as someone who reads the lessons or the prayers of intercession, then perhaps a church steward or as a worship leader, etc.
The idea of someone becoming a priest who's never been very visible or available in their own local church isn't a concept I'm used to. Very interesting!
I can see the arguments both ways. To take a very different example, can you imagine how different school PE lessons would be if PE teachers were selected from non-sporty types who loathed the very sight of a football when they were at school ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
I wonder if putting the wafer in to the chalice (as if to intinct) but not actually touch the wine would also be an alternative. I ask not because I have the same difficultly with wine as the reason for this thread, but because I don't actually like - and have a physical reaction to - the wine which is now used in my church. When suggesting that I therefore take in one kind only, this was met with concern, so I decided to intinct instead, but only slightly touch the surface of the wine with the host. If I was to not even put the wafer in that far, the only person who would know would be the chalice bearer, and then only if he or she was paying great attention during that split second.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Percy B
Shipmate
# 17238
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Posted
A few random responses to what has been said
TomM: I have never encountered an Anglo Catholic parish or other Anglican parish which positively discourages taking the chalice. I know we may be reluctant to name, but can anyone name a few such places? I suspect not.
Augustine: again, like you Augustine, I have never encountered Anglican churches which give alternative wines. (I must admit to thinking all wine was gluten free). I received many times in chur he's in the Church of England but never been aware of an alternative wine. Sometimes gluten free hosts are available.
And chorister - why not make a stand and just receive in one kind. It could help others to do the same, and may even encourage an alcoholic who is reticent about receiving because he or she may feel obliged to receive the chalice.
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Mary, a priest??
Posts: 582 | From: Nudrug | Registered: Jul 2012
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
I'm prepared to make a stand over things I feel very strongly about, and have done so in the past. But this isn't one of them, not worth causing trouble over.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Percy B
Shipmate
# 17238
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Posted
Indeed I can see that, and of course it does not affect you directly. I would be inclined to do the same in your position.
However, I am a little uneasy that questions are asked of those communicants who decline to receive the chalice. What has that to do with anyone?
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Mary, a priest??
Posts: 582 | From: Nudrug | Registered: Jul 2012
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Heavenly Anarchist
Shipmate
# 13313
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Percy B:
Augustine: again, like you Augustine, I have never encountered Anglican churches which give alternative wines. (I must admit to thinking all wine was gluten free). I received many times in chur he's in the Church of England but never been aware of an alternative wine. Sometimes gluten free hosts are available.
I'm assuming gluten free wine is might be a chalice of wine that has not been tainted by having a wheat wafer dipped in it. Those with coeliac disorder might react to even that small amount of gluten contamination.
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Percy B
Shipmate
# 17238
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Posted
Ah! Silly me, never thought of that. I do understand just a slight contact can cause big problems.
On the matter of the C of E I thought it was required in Canon Law that the wine be the fermented juice of the grape, I.e. alcoholic. But then very few obey Canon Law to the letter!
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Mary, a priest??
Posts: 582 | From: Nudrug | Registered: Jul 2012
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Percy B:
I have never encountered an Anglo Catholic parish or other Anglican parish which positively discourages taking the chalice. I know we may be reluctant to name, but can anyone name a few such places? I suspect not.
I can name - All Souls' Blackman Lane, Leeds IN THE 1970s when Fr. Hum was PP and I was a student. Roman Rite.
If I stayed at the rail long enough after everyone else had got up and gone back to their seats, he's sigh deeply and return with the almost empty chalice.
(They now have a woman vicar!!!!)
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Offeiriad
Ship's Arboriculturalist
# 14031
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
If this man is still on the fringes of CofE life .....
Sorry, but where have I given any impression that this lady is 'still on the fringes of C of E life'? This is far from the case!
Posts: 1426 | From: La France profonde | Registered: Aug 2008
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Percy B
Shipmate
# 17238
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Posted
Mind you I think the Church of England, and some other churches, perhaps, could benefit from calling to ministry some who are (in one sense at least) on the fringes of church life.
It seems to me that some alcoholics are on the fringe. For some alcoholics are quite lonely and isolated figures. The priest friend I mentioned had a terrible battle against alcohol and lost nearly everything. His story and example are a strength to the church, a witness to the determination of the individual and the grace of God. He came in from the fringes, the church is stronger because of that.
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Mary, a priest??
Posts: 582 | From: Nudrug | Registered: Jul 2012
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Oferyas:
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
If this man is still on the fringes of CofE life .....
Sorry, but where have I given any impression that this lady is 'still on the fringes of C of E life'? This is far from the case!
My apologies! As I said above, in my experience, people who play an active part in church life routinely take Communion. When you said that your friend didn't, it seemed to me that she must be on the fringes of the church. But now I realise that the CofE has fewer expectations of how regular attenders might behave than other denominations would.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Percy B:
Mind you I think the Church of England, and some other churches, perhaps, could benefit from calling to ministry some who are (in one sense at least) on the fringes of church life.
It seems to me that some alcoholics are on the fringe. For some alcoholics are quite lonely and isolated figures. The priest friend I mentioned had a terrible battle against alcohol and lost nearly everything. His story and example are a strength to the church, a witness to the determination of the individual and the grace of God. He came in from the fringes, the church is stronger because of that.
I get what you're saying, yes. It's just that, in certain other denominations I think the individual on the fringe, alcoholic or otherwise, would normally be drawn into the routine of church life and then gradually acculturised long before any idea of ordination came up. In the faith tradition that I know it's through serving the church as a layperson that the individual realises s/he has a calling to the ministry. This is how the calling is tested, so to speak.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Offeiriad
Ship's Arboriculturalist
# 14031
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
When you said that your friend didn't, it seemed to me that she must be on the fringes of the church. But now I realise that the CofE has fewer expectations of how regular attenders might behave than other denominations would.
I'm sorry, but I can't see anywhere where I suggested she doesn't take Communion. She does, regularly, receiving the bread only.
My question was about the problems caused by the priest celebrating the Eucharist being expected, by ancient and general practice, to partake of both bread and cup.
Posts: 1426 | From: La France profonde | Registered: Aug 2008
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
Again, it's not part of my experience that individuals take only the bread, not the wine, so when people refer to Communion/Eucharist, my assumption is (was) that both will be taken.
If the officiating priest is unconcerned about the laity taking only one, then I can't see why it would be such a problem if the clergy do the same - but others have given you their knowledgeable advice on this from inside the CofE. I said at the very beginning that I wasn't an Anglican. I was curious, and I've certainly learnt some new things on this thread.
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Percy B
Shipmate
# 17238
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Posted
While I have been in several churches where people decline to receive from the chalice I have to say it would seem odd to me if the priest did not, at least, appear to do so.
I seem to remember that there was a rule somewhere that the priest had to receive before the people to make the Eucharist complete then all shared. Mind you that's not saying the priest had to receive the wine.
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Mary, a priest??
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Offeiriad
Ship's Arboriculturalist
# 14031
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Posted
PercyB, that's always been my understanding as well, that the priest's communion (in both kinds, by universal tradition) 'completes' the Eucharistic action.
Posts: 1426 | From: La France profonde | Registered: Aug 2008
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
A couple of notes from a lay assistant at the eucharist. First, if you follow the studies of bacteria in the chalice, intinction is not a good idea as fingers contaminate more than lips. The Diocese of Toronto has this information somewhere on their site if interested. Our parish has a separate small chalice, more like a sherry glass, for intinction. I'm not sure how common this is, but it was raised and implemented when the bishop forbade intinction during one of the 'flu scares. The separate intinction chalice was allowed.
The second thing to note is that it is very common for people to touch the cup with hands and never pull it to their mouth. Here, the kissing of the cup or touching lips to it is not at all common. It would seem the important thing to some is contact with the cup, not necessarily wine. The priest is another matter, and I have no idea how that would play. I suspect if this occurred in our parish, the lay assistants (we have 2 assistants and 2 readers assigned each Sunday) would simply accommodate, as the communion is not mediated by the priest who simply facilitates, but by the elements which symbolize the presence. I have no idea if I'm talking theologically correctly with this, but this has been the discussion within the lay assistant group for some time.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
If you intinct in the way I do it (only slight contact with the wine) there is no way my fingers - even accidentally - could touch the surface of the wine. They are a good couple of centimetres away. If someone is actually going to drown their host, ahd their fingers as well, they might as well go the whole hog, put the chalice to their lips, and take a gurt big gulp.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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lily pad
Shipmate
# 11456
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Posted
But your hand/fingers and the priest's fingers have touched the bit that you place into the wine. That's an issue, especially multiplied by all the others who intinct into the same chalice.
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Sloppiness is not caring. Fussiness is caring about the wrong things. With thanks to Adeodatus!
Posts: 2468 | From: Truly Canadian | Registered: May 2006
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Zacchaeus
Shipmate
# 14454
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Posted
Our priest and chalice assistant use a sanitizer first and the vicar prefers it if anybody wants their wafer intincted that the chalice assistant do it on their behalf. Which cuts down on the number of fingers in the common cup..
Posts: 1905 | From: the back of beyond | Registered: Jan 2009
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Basilica
Shipmate
# 16965
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zacchaeus:
Our priest and chalice assistant use a sanitizer first and the vicar prefers it if anybody wants their wafer intincted that the chalice assistant do it on their behalf. Which cuts down on the number of fingers in the common cup..
Although presumably the host was still hanging around on germy hands for a while before that.
Posts: 403 | Registered: Feb 2012
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
If you're worried about germs, then look instead at the shaking of hands during the peace. People spend the first half of the service coughing into their recently washed hands, then shake hands with several people in their own, and surrounding, pews / rows. So the germs have been passed around the church way before any wafers get involved. I noticed with wry amusement that, during the swine flu scare, communion was taken in one kind only, but we still all shook hands at the peace!
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Offeiriad
Ship's Arboriculturalist
# 14031
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Posted
We suspended the Peace(which I regard as an epidemic in itself... ![[Devil]](graemlins/devil.gif) ), but unfortunately people wanted it back afterwards.
Posts: 1426 | From: La France profonde | Registered: Aug 2008
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Oferyas:
We suspended the Peace(which I regard as an epidemic in itself... ), but unfortunately people wanted it back afterwards.
I always hated that too.
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
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A.Pilgrim
Shipmate
# 15044
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by TomM:
And there are 'traditionalist' places (Anglican and Roman Catholic) where communicating in the one species only is the norm for the laity, never mind exceptional.
That must be very dispiriting for a member of the laity who wishes to partake in one kind only - the one that is withheld.
The phrase 'A Friend of Bill' is new to me - amazing what you can learn aboard the Ship.
The whole question of hand-hygiene when dispensing and taking communion has vexed me for a long time. As Chorister explained, the sequence whereby people in the congregation shake hands to ‘share the peace’ and then handle a piece of bread or wafer and eat it is an excellent way of distributing an infectious agent such as a virus around the congregation. Even worse, as I have encountered in some non-conformist churches, is when the bread is in the form of a large chunk, which is passed on a plate along the row of people, where each person holds the chunk with one hand while tearing off a piece with the other. If you are on the end of a row, or at the back, the bread has had a couple of dozen grubby hands all over it. Sorry, but no thanks.
Drinking from a common chalice is far less of a problem, because people’s lips have far fewer infectious agents on them than their hands do. This is because people stick their hands in places that they don’t usually kiss... (such as door handles ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif) ). Maybe there is more wisdom in the biblical injunction to ‘Greet one another with a holy kiss’ than we realise.
Angus
Posts: 434 | From: UK | Registered: Aug 2009
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by A.Pilgrim:
That must be very dispiriting for a member of the laity who wishes to partake in one kind only - the one that is withheld.
I've never really understood communion in one kind full stop. The fullness of the sign is in both kinds. Anything less is not the sign Christ instituted.
[fixed code]
[ 27. February 2013, 21:05: Message edited by: seasick ]
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
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