Ship of Fools: Seders in a Christian church

Thread: Seders in a Christian church Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

To visit this thread, use this URL:
http://forum.ship-of-fools.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=70;t=025761

Posted by ChippedChalice (# 14057) on :

a friend and seminary classmate of mine is publicizing a seder celebration in her Lutheran parish.

I know this is a pretty common occurance -- curious Christians like to experience the seder and see it as a meaningful way to experience their own faith.

I know what I think about the common practice of holding seders as a Maundy Thursday observance in Christian churches (I don't think it's a good idea -- for a number of reasons.)

But I'm curious -- anybody know what Rabbis or other Jewish folks think of the whole idea of Christians holding their own seder meals?

I guess a case could be made that this is analogous to our adoption of the Hebrew Bible as our Old Testament.

Any thoughts?

Posted by Mama Thomas (# 10170) on :

Yes. A rabbi I know thinks the whole idea is preposterous because the traditional Jewish liturgy is a mediaeval development and cannot be what Jesus and the apostles did at the Last Supper.

Combining the Christian Maundy Thursday with its own uniquely Christian themes with the very different cultural and theological framework of contemporary Jewish Passover are misleading rather than enlightening.

Reminds of the whole "Celtic" spirituality industry of trying to enlighten people on something which didn't exist.

Posted by Og, King of Bashan (# 9562) on :

This seems to comes up every year. Given that two different rabbis will have three different opinions about anything, I am sure that there is not a definitive answer (although I like the point about the Seder developing in the medieval period- if you read the section from Exodus and then show up to a modern Seder expecting to see something similar, you will be surprised).

I attended my first home Seder at my wife's uncle's house last year, and I will say here what I have said elsewhere: yes, you could find a Haggadah and put on a Seder at your church. But it would be a bit like someone following your family around one Christmas, writing your routine down, and then re-creating that dinner with a script the next year as a "Christian Christmas Dinner." You might get the idea, but a good portion of the meaning comes from the older members of the family remembering Seders past and proving that they still know how to read the Hebrew, and drinking the cups of wine out of the glasses that came from the old country.

Posted by Ad Orientem (# 17574) on :

I find the whole idea very odd. Don't the ancient canons of the Church forbid Christians from partaking in the feasts of the Jews (or any other non-Christian feasts for that matter)?

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

I have posted this before, from my blog:

quote:
Observations by other Christians:
The practice of a Maundy Thursday Seder is symptomatic of a liturgical theology that I find very troubling because of its implications. It’s the notion of re-enactment. My students who advocated this practice were rather confused at my insistence that liturgy is not about re-enactment. Re-enactment suggests that we are trying to replicate something that happened in the past. The logic here is fundamentally historical—we are remembering a past event because the importance lies in the past. I was and am emphatic that liturgy is not about the past—it’s about the present and the future. We don’t re-enact, rather, we enact. We don’t celebrate the Eucharist because we are doing something from the past, but because in and through the Eucharist Christ is made truly and really present here and now in our very midst. While our celebration of Holy Week and Triduum is rooted in historical particularities, these particularities are not the principle focus. Rather, the present and future implications of those acts are what we experience and celebrate. Because Christ died, once for all time, we have been and are reconciled to the Father; because Christ rose, once for all time, we have the hope of resurrection and—indeed—experience foretastes of that resurrection even in our own flesh. These are not events that should be shoved into the past and re-enacted, but enacted and celebrated as breaking forth in our own time and place. http://haligweorc.wordpress.com/2007/01/02/objections-to-the-practice-of-a-christian-seder/

A lot of the seder ritual is later rabbinical invention though, so it’s probably not very accurate. They also attribute Christian symbolism to elements of the seder that would not be accepted by Jews (e.g. the three matzahs that represent the three Temples are taken to mean the Trinity instead, that sort of thing). http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080323141649AAbCOxd

we as Christians share more with the Jews than our roots. We also share some two millenia of an enmeshed abusive history. We are not the Church of the first century, and the Jews are not the synagogue of the first century. We can’t act in good faith as if our common history did not exist. The ‘Christian seder’ is an exercise in, at best, naivete and at worst bad faith.

Jewish objections

‘It’s supercessionist. You think you’re Jews. You’re not Jews. You’ve been killing Jews for centuries, but hey, there are a few of us left.’

‘How’d you like it if I did a fake mass for educational purposes?’

‘You don’t even LIKE Jews. You don’t know any. And here you are playing at having a seder. It’s offensive. Like blackface minstrels.’

Rabbi Yechiel Eckstein “We have problems with Christians transforming our symbols and stories into a Christological message that robs us of our holy experience and thoughts.”

Rabbi Ira Youdovin: Christian Seders are the work of “fundamentalists [who] seek to co-opt an ancient Jewish ritual. … They appreciate Jews not for what they are as Jews, but for this caricatured identity as proto-Christians. This is highly offensive to Jews.”

…..not because I wish to deprive Christians of an experience of Judaism, but because I believe that this kind of simplistic explanation offers a false experience. It is as unhelpful as passing around wine and wafers to give a Jewish audience a “taste of the Eucharist.”

“They take our symbols, our holiday, our ritual and start investing them in Christian meaning. It’s spreading out through the more liberal Christian churches. The Episcopalians, Methodists, Presbyterians are doing this without understanding the hurt it causes to their Jewish friends.” ” Rabbi Stuart Federow

To view Passover as a quaint relic of the past telling us how Judaism was in the days of Jesus is to rob the Jewish celebration of its contemporary relevance.

In the spirit of true inter-faith dialogue, it is more helpful and wholesome for representatives of the two religions to learn from each other’s Midrash, instead of trying to incorporate the one into the other. http://www.jcrelations.net/en/?item=946

What could be done instead:

I do see a value for Christians to learn more about Judaism from Jews (from sympathetic Gentiles where that’s needed, as some White folks teach African-American history and criticism). I whole-heartedly affirm their participation in seders on that basis, as invited guests of Jewish hosts.

source (mine with acknowledgements where I have been able to identify sources)

Posted by CL (# 16145) on :

It's modern day Judaizing which was pretty much the original Christian heresy.

Posted by Basilica (# 16965) on :

quote:
Originally posted by CL:
It's modern day Judaizing which was pretty much the original Christian heresy.

On the other hand, the trap of Marcionism is not far away either. It's very easy for Christians---out of respect for Judaism---to ignore the roots of our faith in the faith of ancient Israel, to neglect the Hebrew Bible and to essentially ignore Jews as a theological conversation partner because "they have their own covenant".

With that said, I do think a Maundy Thursday seder meal is a very silly idea. This is not least because many Passover themes are caught up in the Eucharist.

Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :

It seems to me to be play-acting the rituals internal to another religion, and I find it as offensive as I would find non-Christians pretending to serve the Eucharist.

Posted by Anselmina (# 3032) on :

The only thing I've experienced in this line was at theological college when a number of Reformed Jews and their Rabbi led a Seder for all the students, in the canteen. The object was to get as close as possible to what their own Jewish community did at such times, and offer the experience as part worship, part meal and mainly teaching point.

It didn't replace a service as such; though I'm almost sure it was held on the run-up to Easter Day. I don't think I would feel 'right' about the idea of a bunch of Christians organizing and leading a Seder in the same way. Whereas with the Jewish-run event, we were the students and guests, learning and receiving that community's hospitality. I think, too, I grew to dislike the idea of Christian Seders partly from some of Amos's arguments from years past on the Ship about the inappropriateness of it.

Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :

quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
It seems to me to be play-acting the rituals internal to another religion, and I find it as offensive as I would find non-Christians pretending to serve the Eucharist.

Part of me would love it if a non-Christian group wanted to experience a Mass to learn about it. But all of me would want at least a Christian priest to be there to get the teaching right.

I would expect many Jews would feel very weird, if not offended, about some Christians going ahead and just doing a seder on their own. Seems uncaring and disrespectful, even if those attitudes are not intended.

I know these rites mean different things within their respective traditions, so it isn't an exact analogy, but in general, doing another tradition's ceremony just seems wrong...as it was when an Episcopal church I visited had a "Rosh Hashanah" service instead of its main Eucharist, and I left before it started and went to an RC Mass.

[ 08. March 2013, 03:33: Message edited by: Oblatus ]

Posted by Ad Orientem (# 17574) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Basilica:
...to essentially ignore Jews as a theological conversation partner because "they have their own covenant".

Eh? Surely the only theological imperative Christians have concerning the Jews is to pray for their conversion?

Posted by Amos (# 44) on :

The Passover Seder, as a living liturgy, has changed, and continues to change over the years (Maimonides's notes in the Mishneh Torah on the principles behind changes are always worth referring to if you're planning to make liturgical change). This may mean it isn't useful for Christian historical recreation.
That won't stop people who want to put on Christian seders because frankly they don't give a flying fuck in a rolling doughnut what Jews think anyway, and have been vocalizing the Tetragrammaton for years even though 'YAHWEH' ('the god of the Ancient Hebrews') came out of the historical-critical movement in the last couple of centuries, and grates on every Jew's ears.
So go ahead! And why not invite the Jews for Jesus to come and put it on for you while you're at it?

[ 08. March 2013, 06:58: Message edited by: Amos ]

Posted by Spike (# 36) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Amos:
So go ahead! And why not invite the Jews for Jesus to come and put it on for you while you're at it?

I really hope your tongue was firmly in your cheek when you said that!

Posted by Amos (# 44) on :

After all these years, Spike, what do you think?

Posted by Laurelin (# 17211) on :

quote:
Originally posted by CL:
It's modern day Judaizing which was pretty much the original Christian heresy.

No, it isn't.

As a Gentile Christian, I am deeply grateful to be grafted into the vine. I feel no compulsion to observe the Jewish festivals or pretend that I'm a Jew (that would be weird and dishonest) but I am greatly enriched by learning about the ancient Biblical festivals. Their rich symbolism impacts on everything we do under the New Covenant.

I am often a guest at a Friday night seder run by two friends, both are Jewish by blood (if not halachically in one case: my friend had a Jewish father, not mother).

The first time I saw a demonstration of the Passover by a Jewish convert (he worked for CMJ, The Church's Ministry Among Jewish People), a lightbulb went on in my head. Now, for the first time, I really understood Holy Communion, both its roots and its full implications.

I have taken part in seders organised by Messianic Jews, i.e. people who are actually Jewish by blood (not 'faux Jews', as they are often unjustly accused of) and came to a belief that Yeshua is their Messiah. In other words, these folk know what they're doing and what they're talking about. They know their Jewish heritage and do not reject it. As such, they have much to teach their Gentile brothers and sisters.

I am far less comfortable about seders being organised by Gentile Christians only. In fact, I think that's wrong. If I am to take part in a seder, I would want Jewish people to run it.

And yes, I would be happy to be a guest at a seder organised by conservative or Reformed Jews, and not just those organised by my own constituency (Messianic/evangelical).

quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
I find the whole idea very odd. Don't the ancient canons of the Church forbid Christians from partaking in the feasts of the Jews (or any other non-Christian feasts for that matter)?

The Church's denial of her Jewish roots, and frequent hostility to her Jewish roots, has had terrible consequences down the centuries.

From St Paul rightly insisting that Gentiles didn't have to be like Jews in order to be accepted by God into the New Covenant, the Church gradually did a complete about-turn and became downright hostile to all things Jewish, resulting in a horrendous historical situation whereby if a Jewish person converted to Christianity, they had to deny their Jewishness and express active hostility towards it. How can someone deny who they really are?

Madness. This is not what the Apostle Paul intended. For goodness sake ... we Christians worship a Jew. Our Bible is Jewish, through and through.

[Help]

Posted by Ad Orientem (# 17574) on :

As far as the ancient Church is concerned Judaism is nothing more than an apostate sect.

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

I've never been to a seder, although I would be pleased, interested and honoured if I was invited by a Jewish family.

I'm highly doubtful of Christians putting on a seder, rather than concentrating on their own Holy Week rituals. (And I imagine Christian seders are put on by those Christians who don't recognise or encourage Christian communual rituals.)

The element of the passover meal that illuminates the eucharist for me is that I understand that in answer to the question "Why is this night different from other nights?" the answer is " This is the night when..."

To me that means that neither the eucharist nor the seder are re-enactments - the eternal reality is present. (The reality for Christians not being the Last Supper but the death and resurrection of Christ.)

Posted by Amos (# 44) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
As far as the ancient Church is concerned Judaism is nothing more than an apostate sect.

And that, folks, in a sentence, is how it comes to be that Orthodoxy and pogroms go together like a kiss and a squeeze.

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
As far as the ancient Church is concerned Judaism is nothing more than an apostate sect.

In which case the ancient Church was wrong. It's posts like this that make me reluctant to post here that much.

Posted by Laurelin (# 17211) on :

Ad Orientem - please read Romans 9-11. The Apostle Paul does not agree with you.

Actually ... the general direction of Scripture and the promise of salvation history does not agree with you.

(And since when was Judaism a 'sect'?! [Help]

)

Posted by Ad Orientem (# 17574) on :

If it isn't an apostate sect, then what is it? Answer me this: Who do we believe Christ is? Whom do the Jews reject? If they had a covenant with God and rejected him then Judaism is apostate. So, we pray for their conversion. We shouldn't partaking in their feasts.

Posted by Ad Orientem (# 17574) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Laurelin:
Ad Orientem - please read Romans 9-11. The Apostle Paul does not agree with you.

Actually ... the general direction of Scripture and the promise of salvation history does not agree with you.

(And since when was Judaism a 'sect'?! )

The Epistle to the Romans shows that the ancient faith of the Church is true. The epistle tells us that the Church is Israel, that the Jews are cut-off and if they are to be grafted nack in they must have faith and be baptised.

Posted by seasick (# 48) on :

In Ecclesiantics we strive to maintain an atmosphere of civility and respect. That is important to those traditions represented here. It is especially important towards those traditions not usually represented here. Language such as "apostate sect" is not in keeping with that aim and I would request posters not to use it.

The general relationship between Judaism and Christianity would be a subject for Purgatory. This thread is about Seders in a Christian Church. Clearly, there is need to debate the theology and inter-religious issues related to that but please keep the OP topic in mind.

seasick, Eccles host

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

Hesitant though I am to disagree with Leo, on this issue I do, and agree more with Laurelin.

First, as I've said before, many years ago I found an eminent rabbi's explanation of both Passover itself and their Friday evening meal, an eye-opener as to what the Eucharist is (and is not) about, in ways that had been completely omitted from any Christian instruction I had until then received.

Second, the celebration of the Eucharist on the evening of Maundy Thursday should be significantly different from the way a church normally celebrates it. It should find some way of expressing the notion 'Why is this night different from all other nights?'.

There are a number of different things one can do to express this. One, obviously, is to include the washing of feet. Another, which I have experienced many years ago, was for the congregation to be seated in alternate pews and for the clergy to bring round the bread and wine to administer to them where they knelt. Another, is to find ways to re-present that Eucharist in a form much more like the Last Supper than that community's normal practice.

If a seder style service is trying to do the latter, rather than to copy a modern Jewish Friday evening, then not only is that legitimate, but it is good practice. I can't speak for other ecclesial communities, but most of us will know it is not difficult to choreograph this to comply with Common Worship.

The notion that there is something wrong with 're-enactment' is itself completely wrong headed, both spiritually and theologically. That would not just illegitimise passion plays, Easter gardens, cribs, and a lot of other things we do, but denies 'remembrance', 'anamnesis'. It might also denote a failure fully to accept the implications of Second Council of Nicea.

Posted by Laurelin (# 17211) on :

I disagree strongly with Ad Orientem on his interpretation of Romans and the place of the Jewish people in God's eternal purposes, but a fuller reply would place it well beyond the remit of this thread.

Enoch - thanks for that. [Smile]

It was only when I saw the Passover demonstrated for the first time that I really, really got Holy Communion. It was jaw-dropping. Such an eye-opener.

I do also think that the Eucharist is 'something more' than a 'regular' Passover, if I can put it like that. The roots of the Eucharist are Jewish through and through ... but Jesus was also doing something new and wonderful in His last communal feast on earth. I'm an evangelical Christian, not Catholic, so for me it's symbolic, not literal. But no less special to me because of that.

Celebrating a seder with Jewish friends does give wonderful insight into all this.

Posted by Ad Orientem (# 17574) on :

The Eucharist was never meant to be a carbon copy of the Last Supper. It's also debatable whether the Last Supper was celebrated in the manner of a seder meal, after all, Christ was instituting something new.

Enoch,

What do you mean concerning the second council of Nicaea?

Posted by fletcher christian (# 13919) on :

Posted by Mama:

quote:

A rabbi I know thinks the whole idea is preposterous because the traditional Jewish liturgy is a mediaeval development and cannot be what Jesus and the apostles did at the Last Supper.

The Haggadah, as it is today has gone through some minor changes. Jews rarely change anything unless they must. Essentially the seder meal is the same as it has been since time immemorial, comprising of 13 actions or articles that have been required under law for a very long time before the Medieval period was even a twinkle in a Haggadah liturgy's eye. What takes place in the Medieval period is the revision of rabbinical teaching on the eating of an egg (a curious action whose meaning had been lost in the mists of time), the injunction of women to light the candles to mark the start of the remembrance and the famous 14th article - 'next year in Jerusalem'. The Medieval period saw the production of Haggadah's, some of which are very beautiful, for specific use within the home. Before this, the seder meal would have taken place with the set number of required elements having to be met, but likely not 'read' from a book (except of course the recitation of the Exodus story). It is the principle means of and has been the principles means of transmitting the Jewish faith from generation to generation for a very long time - and not simply a Medieval invention.

This issue comes up every Easter on SOF and people are fairly entrenched in their opinions about it and it has been argued many times almost to the point of it being a dead horse. Generally speaking (and this is a massive generalisation in some respects) Orthodox Jews will not like the idea of it, but are unlikely to be hugely upset; more quizzical than anything else, while Reformed Jews tend not to have any issue at all - in fact many encourage it and will even invite you to their own homes to mark seder. If you can get to a Jewish home for it, it can be a very good experience. I personally don't have a problem with it being done in church as a teaching tool if sensitively handled, and it's always good to have a Jew or Rabbi present who can guide you through it. There are many parishes that don't do it sensitively and have all the marks of supercessionism which paints an ugly picture.

One thing, that I have mentioned on every thread of this type but is worth repeating is that the seder and the liturgy of the Haggadah is not a sacrament and is not understood or conceived of in sacramental terms. It is emphatically not like Jews, Muslims or anyone else 'doing a Eucharist'. Part of the problem with seder is that it is experiental and it can be very difficult to get a grasp on it simply by reading about it.

[ 08. March 2013, 12:49: Message edited by: fletcher christian ]

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
... It's also debatable whether the Last Supper was celebrated in the manner of a seder meal, after all, Christ was instituting something new. ...

That may be debatable, but there can be no debate that the Last Supper was not celebrated in a way that bore anything other than the most sketchy resemblance to the Tridentine Mass, the Liturgy of St John Chrysostom or the 1662 BCP.

quote:

Enoch,

What do you mean concerning the second council of Nicaea?

Icons are commended because they follow from the church's understanding of nature of incarnation. They move us to the fervent memory of their prototypes. So, to deny the legitimacy of re-presenting theological events, as in the examples I gave, partakes of the nature of iconoclasm.

Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Amos:

quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
As far as the ancient Church is concerned Judaism is nothing more than an apostate sect.
And that, folks, in a sentence, is how it comes to be that Orthodoxy and pogroms go together like a kiss and a squeeze.

Thank God nobody in the West ever taught this.

Posted by The Silent Acolyte (# 1158) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
Eh? Surely the only theological imperative Christians have concerning the Jews is to pray for their conversion?

Dunno about that.

This is me thinking that another teeny-tiny theological imperative for Christians is to stop killing Jews.

We seem to have entered a hiatus of about 70 years or so, but given our dismal, homicidal history, we oughtn't presume that we Christians won't resume the killing—and with more gusto.

Posted by Adeodatus (# 4992) on :

quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:

quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
Eh? Surely the only theological imperative Christians have concerning the Jews is to pray for their conversion?
Dunno about that.

This is me thinking that another teeny-tiny theological imperative for Christians is to stop killing Jews.

We seem to have entered a hiatus of about 70 years or so, but given our dismal, homicidal history, we oughtn't presume that we Christians won't resume the killing—and with more gusto.

Absolutely. Christians should be spending the next few centuries begging forgiveness of the Jews. And (on topic), keeping our hands off their ceremonies. IMHO.

Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :

It wasn't in church, but as part of doing what was laid upon me by teaching about Judaism in RE in a primary school, I used a seder which I found in a book by Michelle Guinness, with three classes.

Afterwards, I was approached by one of the mothers, with her daughter and her mother, who told me that they were Jewish. I had not known this (they weren't practicing, and our town did not have a community), and for a moment I thought that there might have been a objection - but no, they wanted to tell me how much the daughter appreciated her heritage being valued. (Gosh, that sounds self satisfied, but that isn't how it felt at the time.)

The next year, the other teachers weren't so keen on a shared event (there may have been a difficulty with the previsit by an Ofsted leading inspector), and after that the subject moved to another year group where no-one felt it appropriate. But I think it had been worth it for that one child's response. But of course, it wasn't in a church.

Michelle Guinness' husband, as I recall, used the seder, with a meal, in the church hall, followed by a Maundy service in his church.

[ 08. March 2013, 17:40: Message edited by: Penny S ]

Posted by Bran Stark (# 15252) on :

quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
It seems to me to be play-acting the rituals internal to another religion, and I find it as offensive as I would find non-Christians pretending to serve the Eucharist.

I don't know if we can really compare the two, though, since the Eucharist contains teachings which are contrary to modern Judaism, but to the best of my knowledge the Passover Seder doesn't have any anti-Christian elements in it. Christianity came out of Judaism, not the other way around.

[ 09. March 2013, 06:06: Message edited by: Bran Stark ]

Posted by Trisagion (# 5235) on :

quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
It seems to me to be play-acting the rituals internal to another religion, and I find it as offensive as I would find non-Christians pretending to serve the Eucharist.

This.

I have been involved in Jewish-Christian dialogue since I was caught up in a conference in 1984. I have yet to meet an Orthodox Rabbi who does not find Christian Seders offensive. The reaction is stronger when they are advertised as Passover Meals. In fact the only the use of the Divine a name excites more offence, I find. Liberal and Reform Rabbis are, as one would expect, less troubled by these things.

Posted by Amos (# 44) on :

In my experience Reform, Progressive, and Liberal Jews are just as offended as the Orthodox by these things.

Posted by Trisagion (# 5235) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Amos:
In my experience Reform, Progressive, and Liberal Jews are just as offended as the Orthodox by these things.

I should perhaps have ended with YMMV, but I am reliably informed that the nearly ubiquitous Rabbi Jonathan Romain has participated in Seders at St Joseph's, Maidenhead on more than one occasion.

Posted by Amos (# 44) on :

I would wager that Rabbi Romain takes the line that his presence (and that of any members of his congregation) makes the seder Jewish. I'd be astonished if he were present at any seder that included references to Jesus in the order. I'm curious to know, though, whether Rabbi Romain leads that seder or is only present as a guest.

Posted by Trisagion (# 5235) on :

I don't know the answer to that. I'll make enquiries.

Posted by fletcher christian (# 13919) on :

Isn't the pascha and Easter Vigil one big seder sham? We begin in exile around a fire recounting the story of the Exodus, then begin a journey to pass through the waters to follow a flame to the promised land?

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

And since some of us have the Easter Vigil we don't need to have a Christian seder.

Aren't we talking about a lot of different things, from attending a Jewsish seder or having a demonstration seder to adapting the Jewish customs with a Christian interpretation.

Enoch's suggestion of a eucharist in the context of a meal isn't so much a seder as an agape.

Posted by fletcher christian (# 13919) on :

There does seem to be a confusion of terms. For some, the idea of a seder in a church hall or somewhere else seems to mean a seder that's butchered by references to Jesus. I have no experience of this type of thing, so I presume it means that the symbols and activities of seder are re-appropriated in some strange way. Personally, I don't see that as a seder, but may have been what the very early Christians did in a sense, that led to our Easter Vigil and even our understanding of Eucharist. History and faith has moved on and I can't really see the sense of going back to it in that way. I can see the sense in holding a seder where Christians are present, although not in a church or with a link to a service - that seems a little odd to me. On the other hand I do recognise that much of our faith is already a re-appropriation of Judaism and it somewhat saddens me that we have drifted so far apart in our relationships and understanding of one another that we no longer even recognise what it is that we do.

Posted by seasick (# 48) on :

I think that the (American) United Methodist Book of Worship gives very good advice on this point:

quote:
United Methodists are encouraged to celebrate the Seder as invited guests in a Jewish home or in consultation with representatives of the Jewish community, and respecting the integrity of what is a Jewish tradition and continuing the worthy practice of Jews and Christians sharing at table together. Celebrating the modern meal without a Jewish family as host is an affront to Jewish tradition and sometimes creates misunderstanding about the meaning of the Lord's Supper.

Posted by Spike (# 36) on :

quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
What takes place in the Medieval period is the revision of rabbinical teaching on the eating of an egg (a curious action whose meaning had been lost in the mists of time)

I know the answer to this, because a few years ago I was invited to a Seder organised by Jews for Jesus (I went along partly out of curiosity and partly out of loyalty to the person who invited me). The egg, according to the JfJ speaker is all about PSA. Come to think of it, from what this guy said, the whole Seder appears to be about PSA.

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
Enoch's suggestion of a eucharist in the context of a meal isn't so much a seder as an agape.

It is so helpful to have someone tell me what I was really talking about. [brick wall]

Posted by fletcher christian (# 13919) on :

posted by Spike:

quote:

The egg, according to the JfJ speaker is all about PSA. Come to think of it, from what this guy said, the whole Seder appears to be about PSA.

Lol, yes, I'm sure that must be true. Why the hell is everything reduced to PSA by some Christians? It's a real obsession.

Posted by Coa Coa (# 15535) on :

My gang tend to have a meal Maundy Thursday as a way of celebrating the gift of Eucharist. We do not do a faux seder we do what we call an Agape meal where we pray for others and share the joys and challenges of the coming and previous year. We then move in procession singing into the worship space from the parish hall for a Tenebrae service and stripping of the altar.

Posted by Anselmina (# 3032) on :

Coa Coa, welcome to the Ship! Sounds like a nice idea. I think one of my previous churches used to do this for a while until sadly it was dropped for various reasons.

Posted by doubtingthomas (# 14498) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Oblatus:

quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
It seems to me to be play-acting the rituals internal to another religion, and I find it as offensive as I would find non-Christians pretending to serve the Eucharist.
Part of me would love it if a non-Christian group wanted to experience a Mass to learn about it. But all of me would want at least a Christian priest to be there to get the teaching right.

I agree. Of course a seder is by its nature usually led by a lay person, but this still should be a Jew.
When I was in uni, the Catholic student society has a seder meal instead of one our usual weekly meals in Lent one year, which was presided over by members of the university's Jewish student society. They stressed that this was a re-enactment, not the real thing, and explained its constituent parts as they happened.
It was a great experience, both as a link to the Christ's heritage (even if the current form is mre recent), and more generally as a glimpse of insight into a different faith.

Posted by Mockingbird (# 5818) on :

quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
The Haggadah, as it is today has gone through some minor changes. Jews rarely change anything unless they must. Essentially the seder meal is the same as it has been since time immemorial, comprising of 13 actions or articles that have been required under law for a very long time before the Medieval period was even a twinkle in a Haggadah liturgy's eye.

The earliest we can document anything like the present-day Haggadah is in Mishnah Pesachim 10, (ca. A.D. 200.) Even if the Mishnah's account is descriptive rather than prescriptive (which has not been demonstrated), A.D. 200 hardly counts as "time immemorial." While the Mishnah account is recognizably related to the present-day Seder, a comparison of the two strongly suggests the accumulation of material since then, for example:

(a) The Mishnah specifies that "the son shall ask his father" (the Tosefta adds that if he has no son, the wife may ask) but there is only one question, not Four Questions. It looks as though the later Four Questions arose from the four parts of the Mishnah's specified answer to the single question, "In what is this night different from all other nights?". And the narration of the Four Sons is not mentioned and looks like a later addition.

(b) The symposiarchos then, as now, was supposed to expound on Deuteronomy 26.5-9, beginning "in shame" and ending "in praise", but the impression is that he is to narrate extempore. The present-day haggadah fixes the words for this, and there are several references here to sages who were active after the fall of the Temple. Furthermore the use of Deuteronomy 26.5-9 in the context of the Passover banquet is unattested in the 1st-century sources. Philo tells us that it was used as described in Deuteronomy, as part of an offering in the Temple.

(d) The part about what "Rabban Gamaliel used to say is clearly, by the words "used to", later than the time when Rabban Gamaliel is supposed to have been saying it.

(e) Even if Hillel's gyro is, as I suspect, the original way of eating the Passover (I suspect the matzoth were flexible, not stiff as now) the passage about what Hillel did "in the days of the Temple" is manifestly post-Temple.

(f) Philo tells us that the Seder in his time included "hymns and prayers", and this strikes me as the part in the Mishnah account most likely to be pre-Mishnaic: the grace-after-meal (birkath ha-mawzon) and the singing of the Egyptian Hallel. The mention of a debate over how far the Egyptian Hallel extended indicates that there was no fixed practice. Note also that the grace-after-meal would have been present even if the Last Supper was not a Seder.

(e) The 15 (or 13, by your count) sections also is later rabbinic theory about the Seder, and is not explicit in the Mishnah.

====

I would classify the Christian use of the seder as of two kinds:

(1) Teaching seders, in which Christians are taught some of the details of what their Jewish neighbors do.

(2) The user of the Seder as a form of agape.

I would divide (1) into (a) wise and (b) foolish. The Wise form is when the object is either to teach present-day Christians about the practices of present-day Jews so that they will not be prey to ignorant superstitions and so that they will experience what is an alternative development from ours of the common 1st-century Jewish inheritance. Or it may be an attempted reconstruction of the 1st-century rite based on the best knowledge available, and straightforward about the limitations of our knowledge. The Foolish form occurs when any try to claim that the Maxwell House Haggadah is the very same rite that would have been known to Jesus and his disciples.

The form (2) can also be wise or foolish. In the wise form, it would be a Christian table-rite in some ways resembling a Jewish Seder, but would be designed on Christian principles from the ground up. In the foolish form, it takes the Maxwell House Haggadah and tacks Christianity onto it.

Posted by Mockingbird (# 5818) on :

Slightly off-topic, but I note (with approval) that the Maxwell House Haggadah has been used in the White House in recent times. Nothing wrong with it as a modern Jewish rite.

Posted by the Pookah (# 9186) on :

Okay being Jewish, brought up very liberal and Reformed Jewish and a buddhist since the age of 16. I can tell you unequivocally; Don't do it!
It is beyond offensive. Amos and The Silent Acolyte have said it all.

I have deep & treasured childhood memories of seders with my mother's family, passing the bitter herbs, opening the door for Elijah, saying "next year in Jerusalem," so moving. This is my past, my history. Really Jews for millennia just want to be left alone by Christians...Give the gift of ignoring us.

UBB.classic^TM 6.5.0