Thread: Ebbsfleet chrism mass - questions Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.
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Posted by Indifferently (# 17517) on
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Hi all
So I noticed on the Ebbsfleet website that they are holding a Chrism Mass at Bristol Cathedral on 23 March. Has anyone here been to one of these before?
A few questions:
1) Are these events generally ticketed? I ask because it's a large cathedral and I'm not sure how many churches in the surrounding area are ABC - there will likely be one fewer by tomorrow night too by the looks of things.
2) What should I expect from the music and liturgy? Modern? Traditional? Old hymns or new ones? Etc
3) are there usually social festivities afterwards?
Best,
Indifferently
Posted by Thurible (# 3206) on
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Not generally ticketed. Some in the past have been heaving; some less so.
The Bristol one will be for the West Country. Those from Wales may well come across again.
Under Bishop Andrew, they combined cheese and classical. I have no experience of Bishop Jonathan's - whom I imagine will have organised them. In 'inclusive' style, I'd imagine that tenor to continue.
Depends. When they're in parishes, there certainly are. Depends if people have organised such.
Thurible
Posted by Indifferently (# 17517) on
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Bishop Andrew is plying his trade elsewhere these days. Never was much of an Anglican anyway.
Bishop Jonathan is a lovely man. I think he's now the Bishop of Reading. The Bishop of Portsmouth will be presiding at this service.
Posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop (# 10745) on
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+Andrew Proud has been Bishop of Reading since 2011. There is also to be a chrism Mass at St. Giles' Reading this year. I will have to look up and come back to say which bishop.
Posted by Charles Read (# 3963) on
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+Jonathan is to be (is??) bishop of Fulham which I believe is in the south of England.
i suspect the person presiding at the event in Bristol will be the bishop of Plymouth.
Very important not to confuse bishops...
Posted by Peter Owen (# 134) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Read:
+Jonathan is to be (is??) bishop of Fulham which I believe is in the south of England.
Indeed he is. A message on the Ebbsfleet website implies that the legal translation takes place today. But he has been on leave since Ash Wednesday.
quote:
I suspect the person presiding at the event in Bristol will be the bishop of Plymouth.
The website confirms this.
Posted by Thurible (# 3206) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Thurible:
Under Bishop Andrew, they combined cheese and classical. I have no experience of Bishop Jonathan's - whom I imagine will have organised them. In 'inclusive' style, I'd imagine that tenor to continue.
To clarify this, as some seemed to think I was being dim:
Bishop Andrew Burnham, now known as Monsignor Andrew Burnham of the POoOLW, was the Anglican Bishop of Ebbsfleet when I regularly attended Ebbsfleet Chrism Masses.
Bishop Jonathan Baker is technically the current Bishop of Fulham but hasn't been "enthroned" yet. However, I am imagining that he will have organised the Chrism Masses before he departed Ebbsleet's shores.
The Bishop of Plymouth is doing the Bristol one.
The Vicar of Long Eaton is doing the St Giles, Reading one.
The Administrator of the Shrine of Our Lady of Walsingham is doing the Lichfield one.
Thurible
Posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop (# 10745) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop:
+Andrew Proud has been Bishop of Reading since 2011. There is also to be a chrism Mass at St. Giles' Reading this year. I will have to look up and come back to say which bishop.
The bishop officiating at St. Giles' Reading for the Chrism Mass there is +Roger Jupp - an honorary assistant bishop in some dioceses and now Vicar of St. Mary's Kettering (I believe).
On the subject of not getting bishops mixed up, there was +Andrew Burnham (another Bishop Andrew) who stood down as Bishop of Ebbsfleet a couple of year ago to join the Ordinariate. I am unclear therefore, which +Andrew is referred to above.
As for the mention of the Bishop of Portsmouth taking a Chrism Mass in Reading - Anglican or Roman Catholic? Anglican, Reading is in the Diocese of Oxford; RC, some Reading parishes are in Portsmouth Diocese and others in the Archdiocese of Birmingham. Confusion reigns!
Posted by Thurible (# 3206) on
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This is a thread about Ebbsfleet Chrism Masses - of course the Bishop Andrew mentioned is Andrew Burnham. Who was the Bishop of Ebbsfleet.
Roger Jupp is the Vicar of Long Eaton. As I said in the post half an hour before your latest. He is celebrating the Ebbsfleet Chrism Mass in Reading.
The reference to the Bishop of Portsmouth was self-evidently a typo. And no-one suggested he's be saying Mass in Reading.
Thurible
[ 13. March 2013, 15:35: Message edited by: Thurible ]
Posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop (# 10745) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Thurible:
This is a thread about Ebbsfleet Chrism Masses - of course the Bishop Andrew mentioned is Andrew Burnham. Who was the Bishop of Ebbsfleet.
Roger Jupp is the Vicar of Long Eaton. As I said in the post half an hour before your latest. He is celebrating the Ebbsfleet Chrism Mass in Reading.
The reference to the Bishop of Portsmouth was self-evidently a typo. And no-one suggested he's be saying Mass in Reading.
Thurible
Thanks Thurible for clarification; you are not the shipmate responsible for any of the points of confusion I spotted and I had to read between the lines to make sense of it all. I know this is a thread about Ebbsfleet Chrism Masses, but nevertherless, I spotted a few inaccuracies of detail.
From what you say, I suspect for PORTSMOUTH read PLYMOUTH.
I see, you mentioned +Roger Jupp, but not by name. I have the general idea about information of this said Bishop and other details I have of him are not relevant to this topic. If I inaccurately remembered which Midlands Parish he recently went to, then I stand to be corrected.
Posted by Crotalus (# 4959) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Thurible:
Roger Jupp is the Vicar of Long Eaton.
And Holy Trinity, Ilkeston.
Posted by pete173 (# 4622) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Read:
Very important not to confuse bishops...
Oh, we all get terribly confused very easily...
Posted by Indifferently (# 17517) on
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So will this be a very "high church" affair, with elevation of the elements and the presence of chasuble? I find it interesting this is being called "Mass" rather than "Eucharist" or "Holy Communion". Am I to expect incense and bells?
Posted by Angloid (# 159) on
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What's 'very high church' about a chasuble? Or even incense, these days.
Posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop (# 10745) on
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Indifferently, 'high church' means different things to different people. The answer is YES to all the details you mention. Is that good news or bad news to you.
There is one way to find out, so why don't you come along?
Posted by Indifferently (# 17517) on
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Oh none of it is bad news to me, I am just curious. I consider chasuble and incense high church in so far that their 're emergence in the English Church has been fairly recent. I don't mind my excursions to such events!
Being a Prayer Book and Articles sort of Catholic it's not really my preference but I don't mind it, and the theology is (outside certain Anglo Papalist circles) soundly faithful to the English Fathers.
Posted by Margaret (# 283) on
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I notice that the Ebbsfleet Chrism Mass in Lichfield Cathedral is firmly labelled a Chrism Eucharist in the cathedral's Holy Week leaflet.
Posted by Angloid (# 159) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Indifferently:
[the chasuble's] re-emergence in the English Church has been fairly recent.
If over 150 years counts as recent, yes!
Posted by Carys (# 78) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Thurible:
Not generally ticketed. Some in the past have been heaving; some less so.
The Bristol one will be for the West Country. Those from Wales may well come across again.
Thurible
I have seen a tweeet from someone of that tradition in Wales indicuating that they will be in Bristol. I find that weird in the extreme as the Bishop of Ebbsfellt has no jurisdiction in Wales. But they will claim that they are forced to it by the lack of a 'traditionalist' bishop in Wales. But I'm not sure it can be justified from a Catholic PoV.
Carys
Posted by Indifferently (# 17517) on
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I had hoped it would be a haven of liturgical conservatism, but then, opposition to women's ministry isn't always a guarantor of that, unfortunately. Strange how these things work.
Posted by Crotalus (# 4959) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Margaret:
I notice that the Ebbsfleet Chrism Mass in Lichfield Cathedral is firmly labelled a Chrism Eucharist in the cathedral's Holy Week leaflet.
Oddly enough, I don't think the congregation will be drawn from those who usually attend the cathedral. In the Ebbsfleet and Forward in Faith material it is firmly labelled a Mass.
Posted by Thurible (# 3206) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Carys:
I find that weird in the extreme as the Bishop of Ebbsfellt has no jurisdiction in Wales. But they will claim that they are forced to it by the lack of a 'traditionalist' bishop in Wales. But I'm not sure it can be justified from a Catholic PoV.
Sadly, or not depending on your PoV, the Bishop of Ebbsfleet has no jurisidiction in England either. Nonetheless, priests and faithful gather round him in an ecclesial sense - from dioceses across the West of the Province of Canterbury and from Wales.
Thurible
Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on
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I think if I were ++Barry I would be looking very disapprovingly at any of my clergy who chose to gather themselves with a bishop of another province- whether it be England, TEC, or the Southern Cone- rather than with me and my suffragans.
Posted by Thurible (# 3206) on
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Whereas before he's been so approving and supportive...
Thurible
Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on
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Well, at the risk of veering into dead horse territory, I haven't noticed any huge waves of tradcaths leaving the CinW since we decided not to replace the PAB, so I guess it can't all be bad here.
Posted by Incensed (# 2670) on
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On a related matter, the new Bishop of Fulham (+Jonathan Baker) is presiding at a Chrism Mass at St Alban's Holborn during Holy Week. This is a couple of days before the diocesan Chrism Mass at St Paul's on Maundy Thursday at which, one assumes, the Bishop of London will preside. If a priest is vicar of a parish that has not passed resolution C and is not therefore under the care of the Bishop of Fulham, would you expect him to attend this mass or the one at St Paul's? Would it matter what his congregation felt about this?
Posted by Carys (# 78) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Thurible:
quote:
Originally posted by Carys:
I find that weird in the extreme as the Bishop of Ebbsfellt has no jurisdiction in Wales. But they will claim that they are forced to it by the lack of a 'traditionalist' bishop in Wales. But I'm not sure it can be justified from a Catholic PoV.
Sadly, or not depending on your PoV, the Bishop of Ebbsfleet has no jurisidiction in England either. Nonetheless, priests and faithful gather round him in an ecclesial sense - from dioceses across the West of the Province of Canterbury and from Wales.
Thurible
There is a difference however between his position in the Province of Canterbury, where parishes can petition for his extended oversight, and in the Province of Wales where he has no legal position at all.
Carys
Posted by Thurible (# 3206) on
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Indeed. The only Welsh diocesan service I've been to (in fact, I think the only service I've been to in Wales) was an ordination. What struck me was the concelebration. I'm imagining that, unlike C ofE diocesan chrism masses, C inW one's have all priests present concelebrating with the bishop. Which would make participation by "trad" clergy difficult.
Thurible
Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on
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Th problem being concelebrating with women priests, or concelebrating with a Bishop who ordained women? I can understand (although not sympathise with) the formner, but not the latter.
Posted by Thurible (# 3206) on
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I was thinking the former.
Thurible
Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on
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Yes, that's what I thought. I can understand that.
Posted by Carys (# 78) on
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For a number of years ++Barry did not have concelebration at the Chrism mass, in the hope that that would enable those who do not accept the ministry of women as priests to attend, but they still crossed the border, so concelebration returned. Though some priests sit unrobed in the congregation.
As to concelebration at ordination, that is a fine catholic practice surely?
Carys
Posted by Thurible (# 3206) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Carys:
As to concelebration at ordination, that is a fine catholic practice surely?
Oh, indeed, as a principle, it's a commendable one. I'd not seen it at a diocesan ordination in the CofE, though, and so it struck me at the Monmouth one I attended.
Thurible
Posted by Indifferently (# 17517) on
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I heard a story about an elderly male priest who did not accept women's ordination but refused to move churches when they got a woman priest in. In his defence he claimed he simply concelebrated from the back pew!
Posted by leo (# 1458) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Incensed:
Would it matter what his congregation felt about this?
Yes - in this diocese, the Chrism Mass has turned into as diocesan family gathering and many from our congregations come to support us.
FiF structures have become an alternative family structure.
Which family do we belong to?
Posted by Thurible (# 3206) on
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Chrism Masses are for clergy to renew their vows in the presence of the bishop and to collect the oils. Not to be family occasions for lay people -though, often, that is what they've become.
I'd probably expect someone who looked to Fulham but worked in a non-Fulham parish to go to both.
Thurible
Posted by Pyx_e (# 57) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Thurible:
Chrism Masses are for clergy to renew their vows in the presence of the bishop and to collect the oils. Not to be family occasions for lay people -though, often, that is what they've become.
I'd probably expect someone who looked to Fulham but worked in a non-Fulham parish to go to both.
Thurible
quote:
Chrism Masses are firstly a Mass for all during which clergy may renew their vows in the presence of the bishop and collect the oils. Family occasions for all the people of God because that is what a Mass is, not a closed shop for "sound thinking men" that they've become in some places.
There fixed it for you.
Posted by Panda (# 2951) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
I think if I were ++Barry I would be looking very disapprovingly at any of my clergy who chose to gather themselves with a bishop of another province- whether it be England, TEC, or the Southern Cone- rather than with me and my suffragans.
Can't say for sure about ++Barry (but at a guess I would agree with you) but +John of Swansea & Brecon has made it crystal clear from when he first took up office that he expects all the diocesan clergy to be at the cathedral's chrism mass, and no-one else's.
Posted by Thurible (# 3206) on
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Is that a concelebration, Panda?
Thurible
Posted by Panda (# 2951) on
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Not formally, but the bishop has said he is happy for any priest who wants to to join in with the words of consecration. He recognises that it's a difficulty for some but hopes that it is one that can be overcome in the context of this particular occasion.
Posted by Indifferently (# 17517) on
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I noticed Barry was all apply with Kathy at +Justin's enthronement. Surprise surprise.
There was a female priest at the Ebbsfleet event in the congregation (I believe she was Canon Precentor) but she did not robe.
Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on
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You mean she was nekkid?
![[Ultra confused]](graemlins/confused2.gif)
Ian J.
Posted by Thurible (# 3206) on
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Canon Wilby, if it was she, was certainly very helpful for, and supportive of, Ebbsfleet events at the Cathedral during Bishop Andrew's time. She tended to wear clothes.
Thurible
Posted by Thurible (# 3206) on
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Also, on the subject of female clergy at Ebbsfleet chrism masses, I can think of at least one, and possibly two*, female permanent deacons who look to the Bishop of Ebbsfleet for extended episcopal care.
Thurible
* the second is one whom I believe is the curate of a shipmate, whom I believe has previously said, on this forum, that she is to look to her diocesan only whilst in his parish. My memory may, though, be confused.
Posted by Indifferently (# 17517) on
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There was certainly a lady deacon at the Bristol Chrism Mass I went to.
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