Ship of Fools: Maundy Thursday/Good Friday all night vigil

Thread: Maundy Thursday/Good Friday all night vigil Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by malik3000 (# 11437) on :

Many places have a vigil following the Maundy Thursday liturgy through until the Good Friday liturgy (or until whatever service they might have between noon and 3PM), or in some cases up until only midnight. I am interested as to what is done in this regard at various places, in the experience of Shipmates.

For example, my parish (TEC), like many, has a vigil before the Blessed Sacrament from the end of the Maundy Thursday evening eucharist until the start of the 7 Last Words service at noon. (We have Stations of the Cross and the Good Friday liturgy in the evening). (Not being as high up the candle as some places, we don't otherwise regularly have the reserved sacrament available for adoration, which I would like if we did, but that's not the topic of this thread.) People sign up for hour shifts, although of course one can participate without having signed up. Adequate security is provided.

It is entirely silent, with some materials for meditation available to be read.

I notice that Trinity Wall Street has something similar, but with the difference that "each hour is introduced with responses and special prayers."

One of the downtown Atlanta RC parishes used to () have the vigil after the mass until around 10PM and conclude it with Compline.

I think it is entirely appropriate that the vigil should be primarily quiet for the most part, but having some brief, short liturgy at the beginning of each our would not be out of place -- perhaps some nocturnal bit from the Liturgy of the Hours (or something else).

Any input from other Shipmates would be of interest, including any links to potential resources.

Posted by The Silent Acolyte (# 1158) on :

At Our Lady of Hardwork, after the Sacrament is translated in procession to the Altar of Repose, a silent all-night vigil is kept before the Blessed Sacrament until around nine o'clock Friday morning. There is a sign-up sheet, but others come during the night. Several fellows share out the responsibility of renewing all the guttering candles sometimes around two or three o'clock in the morning. The only light in the chapel is from these candles. Folk come to pray silently on their knees or to read.

This is one of the most precious gifts of the church year. We believe we are the only place left in this city celebrating an all-night vigil now that the Catholics are wrapping things up by midnight.

This is a shame because there used to be fervent competition among the flower guilds of the local catholic churches as to which could best offer devotion to Our Lord and Our Lady with the sumptuous decoration of the altar of repose.

Before the era of the automobile, crowds of pious (and not so pious youth) would walk in pilgrimage from parish to parish, spending time in each before the Sacrament, in a tradition called "Making Seven Churches." The ancient couple from whom I bought my house met each other during one such Maundy Thursday evening.

Posted by Forthview (# 12376) on :

/I remember the tradition of the Seven churches,but I have never known why it was Seven churches.
It was easier to do when the Mass of Holy Thursday was celebrated in the morning,but that's a long time ago.....

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

Vatican 2 forbids us going on after midnight so we conclude with the 'gospel of the watch' and lock up.

Back again for 2pm Liturgy.

Posted by seasick (# 48) on :

Really? I thought the rubrics simply said that solemn adoration finished at midnight. There's something quite special about going to take your turn at some absurd hour of the morning.

Posted by teddybear (# 7842) on :

Some say the Seven Churches devotion is an old Roman custom, while I have read others who say that it was started by St. Philip Neri (no citation). I have known about it for many years, but lately it has started becoming popular again. Another link,
here.

Posted by Zach82 (# 3208) on :

I tried it in Boston a couple years ago, but ran out of open churches at 3. [Waterworks]

Posted by malik3000 (# 11437) on :

quote:
Originally posted by seasick:
Really? I thought the rubrics simply said that solemn adoration finished at midnight.

That has been my understanding too, although in practice most RC churches do close up by midnight.

quote:
Originally posted by seasick:
There's something quite special about going to take your turn at some absurd hour of the morning.

Indeed.

Posted by Carys (# 78) on :

quote:
Originally posted by malik3000:

quote:
Originally posted by seasick:
There's something quite special about going to take your turn at some absurd hour of the morning.
Indeed. [/QB]

And going to bed after you'll be getting up for the vigil.

I loved that in Cambridge, though glad I don't have to deal with the logistics at current church.

Carys

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :

We have just a simple Vigil, mostly silent, from the end of the Maundy Thursday Mass until 1045, when Compline is said. For various historical reasons, our Good Friday Liturgy is at the odd time of 11am, but we do have Morning Prayer at our usual hour of 930am.

Ian J.

Posted by seasick (# 48) on :

On the topic of adoration after midnight, Msgr Elliott in Ceremonies of the Liturgical Year says:

quote:
Solemn adoration at the Place of Reposition should continue until midnight, and the faithful should be encouraged to maintain the "watch". At midnight, the candles and lamps are extinguished and the flowers are removed, but one lamp should remain burning. A simpler form of adoration may, and should, continue throughout the early morning hours, even up to the Good Friday ceremonies, when this can be arranged.

[ 16. March 2013, 20:34: Message edited by: seasick ]

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

quote:
Originally posted by seasick:
Really? I thought the rubrics simply said that solemn adoration finished at midnight. There's something quite special about going to take your turn at some absurd hour of the morning.

That is true and we had old ladies who came in the early hours. But they are dead now.

If there are more who want to come in the middle of the night, we have a serious logistics issue - the need to provide people of another gender to stay up with them.

Don't know who will walk into an unlocked church.

And this is not new - we discussed this in St. Aidans' Leeds back in the 1970s - red light district - when the gap between liturgies lasted until Good Friday at 1930.

Posted by seasick (# 48) on :

I don't deny the logistical issues but that's a different question from Vatican 2 forbidding it. I could well understand a church deciding it was inexpedient in their context.

Posted by Amos (# 44) on :

I'm fascinated to learn that when old ladies were keeping vigil before the Sacrament in the wee small hours of the morning, 'people of another gender' (men, I suppose) were required to stay up with them. This sounds distinctly improper to me. Surely a large and robust female armed with a cosh could have stood guard, thus preserving the reputations, as well as the lives, of those saintly old ladies.

ETA A priest makes a good life preserver.

[ 16. March 2013, 20:54: Message edited by: Amos ]

Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :

The Mothers' Union could provide a bouncer or two....

[ 16. March 2013, 22:50: Message edited by: Chorister ]

Posted by Stephen (# 40) on :

The Babushkas of the Church of England.....
And as Mousethief and others will no doubt tell you, never, but never cross the Babushkas.......

Posted by The Silent Acolyte (# 1158) on :

quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Vatican 2 forbids us...

Exactly who is "us"?

I thought you were Anglican?

Posted by Ceremoniar (# 13596) on :

Vatican 2 never said anything about the Maundy Thursday vigil. It was Venerable Pius XII's Holy Week reforms in 1955 that curtailed solemn adoration at midnight. This was done to reduce any solemnities connected with the MBS on Good Friday, including the setting up of a "tomb" in connection with the all-night vigil. This instruction has continued to this day, and as others have mentioned, nothing prevents private adoration without any solemnity until the start of the Good Friday liturgy.

Posted by Edgeman (# 12867) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Ceremoniar:
Vatican 2 never said anything about the Maundy Thursday vigil. It was Venerable Pius XII's Holy Week reforms in 1955 that curtailed solemn adoration at midnight. This was done to reduce any solemnities connected with the MBS on Good Friday, including the setting up of a "tomb" in connection with the all-night vigil. This instruction has continued to this day, and as others have mentioned, nothing prevents private adoration without any solemnity until the start of the Good Friday liturgy.

I was very surprised to find out that Pius XII banned the use of tombs or funerary urns for the altar of repose, because around here, quite a lot of parishes still use them, even the cathedral uses one! The use of a different tabernacle is almost rare.

Posted by The Silent Acolyte (# 1158) on :

[Killing me]

Somehow the memo never made it over from the Vatican to this fair city either. Some of those 'funerary' look more like the Stanley Cup.

And no tombs!! Tell that to the Sisters of Charity at Our Lady of Abundant Consonants.

Posted by Ceremoniar (# 13596) on :

Pretty surprising to hear that some places disregard the instruction. While I personally don't have a problem with the tomb devotion, its discontinuance was a prominent part of the widely circulated Holy Week reforms, which were undertaken with widespread succcess. The prohibition was also prominently mentioned at the time in the last two editions of Fortescue & O'Connell's Mass of the Roman Rite, also McManus' The Rites of Holy Week, Schmitz's Holy Week for Priests, and materials published by St. John's Abbey in Collegeville--all major players in the liturgical movement. So one surmises that the memo was received, but not followed. [Snigger]

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:

quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Vatican 2 forbids us...
Exactly who is "us"?

I thought you were Anglican?

Yes. C of E. Two provinces currently isolated from the greater Western church with whom we hope to reunite.

All our Holy Week liturgies came to us via the RCC so it makes sense to follow the rubrics which come with them.

Posted by dj_ordinaire (# 4643) on :

Any chance we could keep on topic and NOT get side-tracked - once again - into a pissing match about who is Most Catholic (TM)? If there are posters who take enormous pride in obeying what they think Vatican II taught, then good for them, but let's accept that others' mileage may vary.

dj_ordinaire, Eccles host

Posted by The Silent Acolyte (# 1158) on :

Ceremoniar, the bad boys around here seem to be the ethnics, the Irish & Italians having moved beyond that label.

So, one finds tombs among the Haitians at St. Patrick's (ya can't make this up!) and among the stalwart Poles at Our Lady of Abundant Consonants. Occasionally the Irish will give it a try, but they just don't seem to have their heart in it.

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

When Ken Leech was Rector of St Matthew's Bethnal Green, with a Sunday congregation of 30 if we were lucky and just round the corner from the Krays, he had a vigil all night before the BS.

I stayed with a friend nearby and we got up in the very early hours to walk to church through the back streets of Bethnal Green.

The Maundy Thursday watch is the most beautiful and important part of the Christian year for me. I used to read through the last discourse in John, until fading eyesight lead me to use the rosary instead.

The distracting thing is having a stripping of the altars in front of the congregation - something Vatican II did not warrant, so I'm glad to think leo's shack doesn't do it. Bang. Crash. I just move to the side chapel as soon as possible.

Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :

Sadly I've never had a faith community willing to see the whole night through. I love the concept though and would do it myself. The flesh however is weaker than the spirit.

Posted by malik3000 (# 11437) on :

quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
The distracting thing is having a stripping of the altars in front of the congregation - something Vatican II did not warrant, so I'm glad to think leo's shack doesn't do it. Bang. Crash. I just move to the side chapel as soon as possible.

Actually i find it a moving and effective rite, at least at our place and some others, both RC and TEC, where i've seen it done

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

When I'd read about stripping the altars when young, it sounded awesome. I was a bit disappointed that when I went to churches with the full Holy Week rite (who had no other contemporary guidance than Vatican II) there was no public stripping: instead the whole congregation processed to the altar of repose and started the watch.

I have since always attended churches with the stripping. I'm sure it could be potentially powerful, but I've never found it so: it is like watching inexpert furniture removers.

When I was a sacristan, I'd tip toe around the church in my socks stripping the place as quietly as I could.

I agree the total desolation of the church on Good Friday is awesome.

Posted by Arch Anglo Catholic (# 15181) on :

In our odd little corner of England, CofE too, we have our Maundy Thursday Eucharist, stripping of the altars, procession to the altar of repose, then the watch until midnight.

On Good Friday morn, we have solemn matins followed at 10am by the Mass of the Presanctified, black vestments and all.

There is an afternoon meditation and then compline at 6.30. I suspect we do more than most of the other churches in this diocese which is otherwise low/MOTR.

Posted by Amos (# 44) on :

Hereford, then, not Lichfield.

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
The distracting thing is having a stripping of the altars in front of the congregation - something Vatican II did not warrant, so I'm glad to think leo's shack doesn't do it. Bang. Crash. I just move to the side chapel as soon as possible.

Indeed - that last time i did stripping, I dropped a huge and heavy altar cross - made a heck of a racket. Didn't do the cross much good either.

Posted by Stephen (# 40) on :

I do find the stripping of the altars quite moving actually - it proceeds quite naturally to the Watch
Although I couldn't care tuppence what Vat2 says - or any Roman council come to that ( being Protestant as well as Catholic.....!!! [Killing me]

) - logistically I think stopping at midnight is quite sensible. People do need to get up in the morning. Of course it's great if a church can manage the all-night watch but I don't think it's all that practical
Is anybody having the Liturgy of the Presanctified. It seems we are and only in one kind........ [Mad]

Boo-hoo-hoo....... [Waterworks]

I wonder what Hus would have said about it?

Posted by Sergius-Melli (# 17462) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Stephen:
I do find the stripping of the altars quite moving actually - it proceeds quite naturally to the Watch
Although I couldn't care tuppence what Vat2 says - or any Roman council come to that ( being Protestant as well as Catholic.....!!! ) - logistically I think stopping at midnight is quite sensible. People do need to get up in the morning. Of course it's great if a church can manage the all-night watch but I don't think it's all that practical
Is anybody having the Liturgy of the Presanctified. It seems we are and only in one kind........ Boo-hoo-hoo.......
I wonder what Hus would have said about it?

I have to agree with the stripping of the altars to be moving... possibly the most moving of all 'services' in the year for me (when I get the chance not to have to be doing anything!).

For the first time, certainly in recent history, the parish I am in is having a vigil till midnight... but alas no Mass of the Presanctified yet... though we are moving in the right direction as the Vigil happily shows me. [Smile]

Posted by John Holding (# 158) on :

quote:
Originally posted by leo:

quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:

quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Vatican 2 forbids us...
Exactly who is "us"?

I thought you were Anglican?
Yes. C of E. Two provinces currently isolated from the greater Western church with whom we hope to reunite.

All our Holy Week liturgies came to us via the RCC so it makes sense to follow the rubrics which come with them.

Of course all us Anglicans in the rest of the world are free to pay no attention to Rome at all. Sorry that Leo feels the rest of us don't count, as Anglicans.

John

Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :

quote:
Originally posted by malik3000:

quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
The distracting thing is having a stripping of the altars in front of the congregation - something Vatican II did not warrant, so I'm glad to think leo's shack doesn't do it. Bang. Crash. I just move to the side chapel as soon as possible.
Actually i find it a moving and effective rite, at least at our place and some others, both RC and TEC, where i've seen it done

It is both moving and effective, but difficult to reconcile with the Watch before the Blessed Sacrament. It seems to me you either do one or the other.
What's this 'Mass of the Presanctified'? It hasn't been called that for yonks, and never was anyway (a Mass I mean). Much more meaningful to call it the Liturgy of the Lord's Passion (and if you want to make it clear, 'with communion from the reserved sacrament')
One of the worst liturgical nightmares I have ever experienced was in a MOTR* church where the MBS had been taken to the high altar after the Maundy Thursday eucharist and left there surrounded by blazing candles and myriad flowers all through Good Friday, so that rather than a stark bare church what greeted you at the beginning of the Liturgy was a cross between a florist's stall and a firework display. Then instead of general communion the priest alone received; all the candles were extinguished and the clergy and servers virtually ran out of the church at the end. ISTM that the theology and drama of the Good Friday liturgy demands that we begin in starkness and, through the reading of the St John Passion, the proclamation of the Cross and the participation in the Sacrament of the risen life, we experience the glory at the heart of the mystery. Not the other way around.

*It was MOTR in the sense that it had inherited a more Catholic tradition but without much understanding of it.

Posted by Qoheleth. (# 9265) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
It is both moving and effective, but difficult to reconcile with the Watch before the Blessed Sacrament. It seems to me you either do one or the other.

We manage to do both quite neatly. The MBS is processed to the Lady Chapel for the Watch. The high altar and chancel are cleared quietly and quickly. Our reredos of the Lord and the Twelve is re-veiled, having been revealed for this Eucharist ("on this very night ... "), and the Watch begins - until midnight. Morning Prayer at the Icon of the Harrowing of Hell, followed by "Good Friday Communion".

Posted by Og, King of Bashan (# 9562) on :

Every Episcopal church I have attended since I was old enough to participate has done an all-night vigil at the alter of repose, along with stripping of the alter at the end of the service. In Denver, I think I could probably do a five vigil walking pilgrimage on my way home from my church, if not for the fact that (a) my wife would kill me for staying out all night for the hell of it and (b) it would require walking through some pretty dodgy stretches of neighborhood late at night.

I don't know if this is theologically correct, but even when I go home on Thursday night, I like the idea that the service hasn't really ended, and is really going on for a few days. I feel transported to a different place in the hours between the start of Maundy Thursday and the end of the Vigil of Easter, and I have always thought that was a cool side effect of the action at the church continuing throughout the night.

Posted by Edgeman (# 12867) on :

quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
When I'd read about stripping the altars when young, it sounded awesome. I was a bit disappointed that when I went to churches with the full Holy Week rite (who had no other contemporary guidance than Vatican II) there was no public stripping: instead the whole congregation processed to the altar of repose and started the watch.

I have since always attended churches with the stripping. I'm sure it could be potentially powerful, but I've never found it so: it is like watching inexpert furniture removers.

I think to do it properly, you need a small army of servers. We usually have 15-20 altar servers, plus the MC and two or three of the friars to help.

After the procession to the altar of repose, the servers and priests go straight to the sacristy (the door is right next to the altar of repose), and to to the sacristy. The servers wear cassocks with no surplices.

Usually the kids remove the flowers and smaller candlesticks, the teenagers put out the candles and remove the big six from behind the altar, and the friars and priests take off the altar frontal (if there is one) and the three altar cloths.

Because of the way our church is designed, the sacristy goes around the whole chancel, so you can enter it either on the left or right side of the sanctuary. So we usually set things up so that when one server removes a vase of flowers, or a candlestick from one side of the altar, another is doing the same thing on the other side, and one carries his to the sacristy by the right, while the other carries his to the sacristy by the left, both at the same time. It looks really neat.

While this is happening, the men of the choir sing psalm 21 on a monotone with the antiphon, and after the altars are stripped, the pastor washes the altars with water and wine. At the end, the clergy and servers all line up before the altar, bow together, and go tot he sacristy.

It appears that this year, the watch will end with compline, which I have long wanted.

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :

Our sacristy is on the opposite side of the church to the Lady Chapel, in which the MBS is reposed, so it is not too difficult for 3 or 4 of us to silently strip the altar without disturbing the Watch. That, in itself, is quite a moving experience. Once it's done, we either join the faithful in the chapel, or quietly leave the church (to return later in the evening for the end of the Watch, and Compline).

Ian J.

Posted by Stephen (# 40) on :

Ok - a couple of things
First there is no reason why it shouldn't be referred to as the Liturgy of the Presanctified - the phrase refers to the fact that the bread and wine were consecrated the day before - pre-consecrated if you like or - (looks furtively!) presanctified. I would agree with Fr.Angloid that one shouldn't refer to it as a Mass, partly because there is no such thing as a Mass in the Church of England and other Anglican churches [Two face]

and secondly because the Eucharist has already been celebrated. There is no celebration of the Eucharist on Good Friday,agreed
With regard to the Maundy Thursday liturgy, I don't think there need be a contradiction here. What we seem to be doing is to transfer the Sacrament to the altar of repose, - but - the Service doesn't end here

The procession withdraws and Psalm 88 is 'solemnly sung' . I'm not sure what he means by that but it'll probably mean plainsong I'd guess during which time the altars are stripped. The parish magazine refers only to the linen cloths on the altar. I would presume that the cross and candlesticks would also be taken away, and the choir servers and clergy depart informally
The watch then can start proper
I know there is more than one opinion about the furniture like chairs and God knows what else. My personal feeling is that this is taking coals to Newcastle and there is no real need for it - it's the ornaments that are being taken away after all
I think with us that at midnight a passage from the Gospels is read and Jesus is locked away in the church safe. ( Nice change of scenery - it must get so tedious being stuck in the aumbry all the time)
I fear that the good Fr.Angloid is suffering a little bit from the Leonine tendency. I regard us free to borrow,beg or steal from other churches if it works and is helpful devotionally whether it be the Orthodox, RCC, or for that matter Scottish Presbyterianism, but do not feel the need to follow their rubrics - what works in one Communion will often look odd in another, so the liturgies need an Anglican dress to 'come off' I would suggest

[ 18. March 2013, 22:34: Message edited by: Stephen ]

Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :

Originally posted by Stephen:

quote:
I fear that the good Fr.Angloid is suffering a little bit from the Leonine tendency.

Since I have very little hair, and certainly nothing like a mane, I don't understand! I presume it has something to do with Pope Leo, or possibly our shipmate, but unless you are suggesting that the C of E theology of the Passion is completely different from that of the RCC I don't get your point.

Posted by Coa Coa (# 15535) on :

We hold an all night vigil. People are invited to stay for an hour though out the night in prayer or silently reading psalms etc. It has been for our "shift workers" a gift. I stay all evening until 7am Good Friday at which point I go home shower eat something drink copious amounts of coffee and stumble back at 11am for Stations of the Cross. Then at my other congregation 3pm Good Friday service. At 4:00pm (ish) I am home. Asleep. The Tenebrae service with a responsive reading of psalm 22 and stripping of the Altar is quite moving. I take off my vestments too and then wash the altar while people start to "depart in disarray". The Altar guild is busily trying to find space for all the holy hardware in the parish hall in preparation for cleaning.

Posted by Carys (# 78) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Stephen:
I do find the stripping of the altars quite moving actually - it proceeds quite naturally to the Watch

I love the stripping of the altar but I grew up with that without the altar of repose and watch and found utilities tremendously powerful as a teenager.

quote:

Is anybody having the Liturgy of the Presanctified. It seems we are and only in one kind........ Boo-hoo-hoo.......
I wonder what Hus would have said about it?

I prefer keeping it in one kind. My church does both, and the result was that we completely misjudged how much to reserve and 3 of us had to consume the rest and I spent the afternoon sleeping it off which wasn't really appropriate!

Carys

Posted by The Silent Acolyte (# 1158) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Og, King of Bashan:
I like the idea that the service hasn't really ended, and is really going on for a few days...

This seems to be one of Egeria's principal conclusions during her time in Jerusalem during Holy Week.

Posted by Stephen (# 40) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
Originally posted by Stephen:

quote:
I fear that the good Fr.Angloid is suffering a little bit from the Leonine tendency.

Since I have very little hair, and certainly nothing like a mane, I don't understand! I presume it has something to do with Pope Leo, or possibly our shipmate, but unless you are suggesting that the C of E theology of the Passion is completely different from that of the RCC I don't get your point.

Sorry - I was referring to our shipmate Leo

Posted by Sergius-Melli (# 17462) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Stephen:
[snip] and Jesus is locked away in the church safe. ( Nice change of scenery - it must get so tedious being stuck in the aumbry all the time)

Also:

Mea culpa, I did introduce an erroneous term to the Good Friday proceedings... and normally refer to proceedings on Good Friday as the Liturgy of the Presanctified, why I put in Mass I have no idea (maybe having been without such a service for three years or so has rotted my brain a little!), as I say mea culpa!

Posted by Og, King of Bashan (# 9562) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Coa Coa:
The Altar guild is busily trying to find space for all the holy hardware in the parish hall in preparation for cleaning.

Note to well-meaning alter guild members: the choir vesting room is not a good place to stow all the holy hardware in preparation for cleaning. (We had that problem one year- it's crowded enough in there with 25 + choristers just trying to change and hand in music.)

Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Sergius-Melli:

Mea culpa, I did introduce an erroneous term to the Good Friday proceedings... and normally refer to proceedings on Good Friday as the Liturgy of the Presanctified, why I put in Mass I have no idea (maybe having been without such a service for three years or so has rotted my brain a little!), as I say mea culpa!

Even this gives the wrong emphasis I feel. It is above all the Liturgy of our Lord's Passion and Death. Communion, though it is important and a powerful symbol of our sharing in this, is not the focus of the liturgy in the same way that it is in a regular Eucharist/Mass. (And BTW, who says that the Mass doesn't exist in the C of E? It's a bit like those people who pretend that God and Allah are different beings, pretending that the Eucharist as celebrated in one part of the Church is a different thing from the Eucharist celebrated in another part of the Church.)

Posted by Sergius-Melli (# 17462) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:

quote:
Originally posted by Sergius-Melli:

Mea culpa, I did introduce an erroneous term to the Good Friday proceedings... and normally refer to proceedings on Good Friday as the Liturgy of the Presanctified, why I put in Mass I have no idea (maybe having been without such a service for three years or so has rotted my brain a little!), as I say mea culpa!
Even this gives the wrong emphasis I feel. It is above all the Liturgy of our Lord's Passion and Death. Communion, though it is important and a powerful symbol of our sharing in this, is not the focus of the liturgy in the same way that it is in a regular Eucharist/Mass. (And BTW, who says that the Mass doesn't exist in the C of E? It's a bit like those people who pretend that God and Allah are different beings, pretending that the Eucharist as celebrated in one part of the Church is a different thing from the Eucharist celebrated in another part of the Church.)

I don't think I have ever denied that the Anglican Church 'does' Mass... although on reflection I guess that part wasn't aimed at me! ... I remember getting slack for not having refered to the Mass by any other title at one Provincial meeting or another... but that's another story.

I know where you are coming from on the name, but the 'presanctified' part does not necessarily have to take over from the 'watch at the cross' bit... it does not have to be a case of either/or, but can be a 'happy' joining of both emphases whilst considering Christ's sacrifice...

Posted by ken (# 2460) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
And BTW, who says that the Mass doesn't exist in the C of E?

The Pope?

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Stephen:
Is anybody having the Liturgy of the Presanctified. It seems we are and only in one kind........ Boo-hoo-hoo.......

We are but in both kinds.

The Good Friday liturgy has become quite popular - no longer the preserve of a 'extreme' anglo-catholics.

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

quote:
Originally posted by John Holding:

quote:
Originally posted by leo:

quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:

quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Vatican 2 forbids us...
Exactly who is "us"?

I thought you were Anglican?
Yes. C of E. Two provinces currently isolated from the greater Western church with whom we hope to reunite.

All our Holy Week liturgies came to us via the RCC so it makes sense to follow the rubrics which come with them.
Of course all us Anglicans in the rest of the world are free to pay no attention to Rome at all. Sorry that Leo feels the rest of us don't count, as Anglicans.

John

The 'two isolated provinces' is a phrase used by anglo-papalists, particularly in the Catholic League, which only has members in Canterbury and York provinces.

As the Anglican Commnunion is not a 'church' but more like a federation, one cannot really speak for other provinces.

Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :

quote:
Originally posted by ken:

quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
And BTW, who says that the Mass doesn't exist in the C of E?
The Pope?

Well, yes... though has he been quoted on it?
But ISTM that an Anglican who says that it doesn't has somehow to explain in what way the Eucharist (as opposed to understandings of it) can be two different things in two different churches.

Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Sergius-Melli:
I have to agree with the stripping of the altars to be moving...

That's one place in the service where one has to be careful with the wording of the rubrics. 'Clergy strip main altar' it says in our booklet and I always wonder if we get any disappointed punters in the congregation.
The vigil then continues until midnight.

Having just got used to communion in one kind on Good Friday, the new p-in-c changed it to both. Not quite sure why, but guess he had his reasons.

Posted by Basilica (# 16965) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
Having just got used to communion in one kind on Good Friday, the new p-in-c changed it to both. Not quite sure why, but guess he had his reasons.

There's something worthy, I suppose, about meditating on the Blood of Christ on Good Friday.

Posted by Percy B (# 17238) on :

I love Maundy Thursday and the Vigil that follows the Mass.

What happens to the Blessed Scarament at your church? We go to altar of repose. Vigil ceases at midnight, the sacrament goes to a hidden place - why? Why not just remain? Then reappears for Good Friday liturgy - but then where does it go?

I find it a bit of a muddle, IF I stop to think about it [Smile]

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :

IIRC, the MBS is simply transferred after 1045pm Compline to the safe in the sacristy (where a white candle is kept burning to signify Its presence).

It remains there until and after the Good Friday Liturgy (in case of necessity - you never know when some ill person will need it). During Easter Eve, the Altar of Repose in the Lady Chapel will be restored to its usual state, as will the rest of the church, so the MBS will not be returned to the aumbry until after Communion on Easter Day (we don't at present have an Easter Eve Vigil).

Ian J.

Posted by ardmacha (# 16499) on :

Some Conservative R.C. places have solemn Vigil until midenight and then change a few bits and continue the Vigil until 3 p.m. when the Liturgy begins.Some Traditionalists have the Solemn Vigil right through.It was easier in some ways in the old days when the Mass of the Pre-sanctified was early on Good Friday, but then, of course the Maundy Mass was early on Thursday as well.

Posted by Magic Wand (# 4227) on :

We've had the all-night watch before the Altar of Repose at S. Clement's, Philadelphia for as long as I, or anyone else I know, can recall. However, it's being abandoned this year. I just found out this morning at Mass, so have no idea of the whys or wherefores, but there it is.

Posted by Indifferently (# 17517) on :

quote:
Originally posted by leo:

quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:

quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Vatican 2 forbids us...
Exactly who is "us"?

I thought you were Anglican?
Yes. C of E. Two provinces currently isolated from the greater Western church with whom we hope to reunite.

All our Holy Week liturgies came to us via the RCC so it makes sense to follow the rubrics which come with them.

Aff Cath? Reunion with Rome? You must be joking. Look what that lot just did at all saints Clifton. There won't be a Church of England left to reunite with anything.

Posted by Mr. Rob (# 5823) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Zappa:

Sadly I've never had a faith community willing to see the whole night through. I love the concept though and would do it myself. The flesh however is weaker than the spirit
.

Ah, Zappa, here you are again, and I take pleasure in telling you about the TEC parish church of my youth where the Maundy Thursday Watch was kept at the altar of repose throughout the night and through the entire next day until the early evening liturgy of Good Friday. I myself signed up for participation as a teen altar server (acolyte).

As I remember, there was a sign up sheet for teams of two at either half your or 45 minute intervals throughout the night and through the next morning and afternoon. The sheet was always filled, though one of the clergy might take a spot that remained open. Maundy Thursday Mass of the Lord's Supper was celebrated at about 6PM, and the Good Friday liturgy was celebrated at nearly the same time next day.

This was a memorable part of my early years. I'll never forget the almost sexual experience of it; the spring night, the candles, the lingering aroma of incense and the heady fragrance of the flowers.

*

Posted by Mr. Rob (# 5823) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Indifferently:

" ... Look what that lot just did at all saints Clifton ... "

We're all ears here [Eek!]

(excitedly)!

Tell us, just what did they do to All Saints Clifton?

All Saints, Clifton (Diocese of Bristol, CofE)

*

Posted by Carys (# 78) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Rob:

quote:
Originally posted by Indifferently:

" ... Look what that lot just did at all saints Clifton ... "

We're all ears here (excitedly)!

Tell us, just what did they do to All Saints Clifton?

All Saints, Clifton (Diocese of Bristol, CofE)

*

The answer is rescind all three resolutions, although the website doesn't yet say so. The March magazine says they are to discuss them.

To return to topic, it is not clear how long they keep the watch.

Carys

Posted by Edgeman (# 12867) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Magic Wand:
We've had the all-night watch before the Altar of Repose at S. Clement's, Philadelphia for as long as I, or anyone else I know, can recall. However, it's being abandoned this year. I just found out this morning at Mass, so have no idea of the whys or wherefores, but there it is.

Ah, what a shame, yet another one bites the dust. [Frown]

We keep the blessed sacrament at the altar of repose until the communion on Good Friday, then anything left over is stored in the sacristy safe until the Easter vigil. The watch ends at midnight, but starts up again at 8:30 Good Friday morning.

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Carys:

quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Rob:

quote:
Originally posted by Indifferently:

" ... Look what that lot just did at all saints Clifton ... "

We're all ears here (excitedly)!

Tell us, just what did they do to All Saints Clifton?

All Saints, Clifton (Diocese of Bristol, CofE)

*
The answer is rescind all three resolutions, although the website doesn't yet say so. The March magazine says they are to discuss them.

To return to topic, it is not clear how long they keep the watch.

Carys

All Saints kept the watch until midnight, then the church was locked. It was open again this morning and people could pray in the Richard chapel if they wished, until the Solemn Liturgy began at 1.30.

Posted by Vertis (# 16279) on :

Our church found itself in unusual circumstances this year (giving up our priest for Lent) and so our liturgies were slightly different. The Mass at Maundy Thursday was celebrated at a different church in town, and then rather symbolically the Sacrament was walked through town to our own church, where the Garden of Repose had been set up.

It was an unusual arrangement, but there was something striking about it - it turned several heads as we walked through the streets, and, thanks be to God, the party was a mix of three different churches. It was 8.30pm, but the public were respectful (down to one passer-by genuflecting). It was a good mirror of the journey from the Upper Room to Gethsemane.

Once the Sacrament arrived and was placed on the altar in the Lady Chapel, people quietly left in twos and threes until there were only three of us at midnight; Father gave a blessing and then the candles were blown out.

We did receive the Pre-Sanctified Gifts on Good Friday, obviously outside of the Eucharist, but this again was very powerful, particularly for me as I was assisting at the service. When the MBS was removed from the tabernacle, I got what I refer to as the 'liturgical stepladder' and, being careful not to trip over my alb, extinguished and removed the vigil light in the chapel while the congregation waited.

After the distribution, it felt very much as though "He's gone," both in remembrance in fact.

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Vertis:
Our church found itself in unusual circumstances this year (giving up our priest for Lent) and so our liturgies were slightly different. The Mass at Maundy Thursday was celebrated at a different church in town, and then rather symbolically the Sacrament was walked through town to our own church, where the Garden of Repose had been set up.

It was an unusual arrangement, but there was something striking about it - it turned several heads as we walked through the streets, and, thanks be to God, the party was a mix of three different churches. It was 8.30pm, but the public were respectful (down to one passer-by genuflecting). It was a good mirror of the journey from the Upper Room to Gethsemane.

We used to do that with our last incumbent. The mass in one church, procession up the main road, past the pubs and clubs, to the other church in the benefice.

Lots of incense. Must admit that i was hoping nobody i knew would see me in an alb and tunicle!

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