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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Just In
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
Well, come on then, what do you think?
Impressive service in many ways: good mix of music (I liked the African dancers but it's a pity about the Wrath of God hymn). Powerful sermon; good international feel about the congregation and Anglican Communion representatives. The Archbishop's cope was not as OTT as I had feared (and I know why he wore it) but the mitre was much more elaborate than the Pope's. As was the liturgy, in a strange sort of way; I suppose because it was not eucharistic it didn't have the shape to it that the Pope's did.
I thought Giles Fraser was going to have a much bigger role in the commentary than turned out: I suppose the Beeb thought they were in safer hands with Huw Edwards (and they were probably right).
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
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Ascension-ite
Shipmate
# 1985
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Posted
I was going to start this thread if you didn't, thanks. I watched parts of it online with no sound, at work. I hope to watch the rest later. It seemed rather low-key, certainly less grand than some of the recent Royal services I've seen televised from St Paul's or The Abbey. Canterbury is not terribly easy to stage something like this in, being divided as it is. I had seen the cope/mitre on the "Bad Vestments" site and think it wasn't as bad as all that, and he had a good pragmatic reason for wearing it. I have a pet peeve about stubby little altar candles and missing altar crosses, it's just bad art, deprives the church of a focal point, makes the altar look pokey and forlorn, especially if you aren't going to even celebrate the Eucharist. At least dress up the altars properly. Otherwise I think it all seems to have gone well, at least no bendy poles or giant puppets of doom as we'd have here in the US.
Posts: 318 | From: Old Dominion | Registered: Dec 2001
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
Why did he wear it?
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
Because it was left to him by his former teacher, the late Bishop Ian Cundy.
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Knopwood
Shipmate
# 11596
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
(I liked the African dancers but it's a pity about the Wrath of God hymn).
Mm, it got used at the deaconing here last year, and it was a pity then too.
I thought the choice of lectors was a brilliant turn myself!
Posts: 6806 | From: Tio'tia:ke | Registered: Jun 2006
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Knopwood
Shipmate
# 11596
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Posted
(Oh bollocks, now the damned thing's stuck in my head!)
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
Repeating what i said on the Heaven thread:
Wasn't Rowan's enthronement done in the context of a eucharist?
Did I see Mgr. Newton, former PEV, there?
Thankfully Welby wore his mitre properly, not thrown back on his head liker a comic
Fraser made a comment about how people sit on Augustine's chair - some apprehensively. Welby looked confident and at home there.
Shame on the choice of 'In Christ alone' with its heretical words about the wrath of God being satisfied - many alter to 'the love of God'. Poignant in that Welby was shaking hands with rabbis and an iman during it.
Runcie was enthroned on the day Romero was shot. Welby on the day Cranmer was burned at the stake. Food for thought.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
Rowan's enthronement was not eucharistic. It was on the commemoration of George Herbert, another poet with Welsh and Cambridge roots.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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Ascension-ite
Shipmate
# 1985
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Posted
I do find it odd that it was not a Eucharist, however I can see with the quasi-State nature of something like this why they decided upon that, however with all the warring factions under one roof one would hope that breaking bread together might have helped in a positive way, although I'm probably being naive.
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ascension-ite:
I do find it odd that it was not a Eucharist, however I can see with the quasi-State nature of something like this why they decided upon that, however with all the warring factions under one roof one would hope that breaking bread together might have helped in a positive way, although I'm probably being naive.
Unfortunately some of those factions refuse to break bread with others.
[deleted duplicate post]
[ 21. March 2013, 21:43: Message edited by: seasick ]
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Chapelhead
I am
# 21
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Posted
I've only seen highlights of the event, but it looked like bad vestments, dreadful choice of hymn, stupid faux-humble bit with the questions to ++Welby at the start (he's been well out-humbled by the new Pope) and African drums because we have to have African drums - it's expected. It looked pretty poor to me, and I would really have liked it to look good.
BTW, how recent is the 'ancient' tradition of knocking on the cathedral door? It looks like a bit of meaningless fake-medievalism nicked from Parliament (where it at least has some historical significance).
[ 21. March 2013, 22:59: Message edited by: Chapelhead ]
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At times like this I find myself thinking, what would the Amish do?
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Spike
Mostly Harmless
# 36
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LQ:
(Oh bollocks, now the damned thing's stuck in my head!)
Same here.
CURSE YOU, ANGLOID!!!
[ 21. March 2013, 23:07: Message edited by: Spike ]
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"May you get to heaven before the devil knows you're dead" - Irish blessing
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seasick
...over the edge
# 48
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chapelhead:
I've only seen highlights of the event, but it looked like bad vestments, dreadful choice of hymn, stupid faux-humble bit with the questions to ++Welby at the start...
It sounded to me like an excerpt from a low-budget UFO movie "Who are you and where do you come from?" ... "Take us to your leader" ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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We believe there is, and always was, in every Christian Church, ... an outward priesthood, ordained by Jesus Christ, and an outward sacrifice offered therein. - John Wesley
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chapelhead:
BTW, how recent is the 'ancient' tradition of knocking on the cathedral door? It looks like a bit of meaningless fake-medievalism nicked from Parliament (where it at least has some historical significance).
It's been around since the mid-C20 I'd have thought at least. Sounds like a medieval revival, which isn't necessarily a bad thing.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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BroJames
Shipmate
# 9636
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Posted
My Google fu is a bit week at this stage in the week, but the date of publication of this book suggests it was already an established custom by 1934.
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St Everild
Shipmate
# 3626
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Posted
Well, I liked it, overall.
Not too sure about the drummers at the gospel procession, and although I like the tune of the "penal substitution song" I have a deal of difficulty with that as the dominant picture of the Atonement, but I liked the whole service as televised, and it made me glad to be a Christian.
Pity about the BBC commentary, though.
(I did wonder if anyone was going to trip and fall on those endless steps...and I noticed the majority of people present were...ahem...graced with years. Apart from the girl in a pink dress next to the BSL signing person, who was clearly wishing she was somewhere else!
Posts: 1782 | From: Bethnei | Registered: Dec 2002
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
quote:
Originally posted by Chapelhead:
BTW, how recent is the 'ancient' tradition of knocking on the cathedral door? It looks like a bit of meaningless fake-medievalism nicked from Parliament (where it at least has some historical significance).
It's been around since the mid-C20 I'd have thought at least. Sounds like a medieval revival, which isn't necessarily a bad thing.
Except the symbolism seems to express the distorted (solely English?) medieval idea that the Bishop is a visitor to his cathedral and not the chief minister of it. I know that is probably the legal position, but it's bad theology IMHO.
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Crowd: We're all individuals!
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Custard
Shipmate
# 5402
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Posted
I thought the service was great. Particularly good bits:
- second hand robes
- picking a passage about doing the impossible
- resolving to know nothing except Jesus Christ and him crucified
- hymns by Townend and Wesley (and it seems churlish to challenge Townend's perfectly sound theology, especially when it stems in large part from a former occupant of Augustine's Seat)
- dropping the filioque and quoting Pope Francis
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by seasick:
quote:
Originally posted by Chapelhead:
I've only seen highlights of the event, but it looked like bad vestments, dreadful choice of hymn, stupid faux-humble bit with the questions to ++Welby at the start...
It sounded to me like an excerpt from a low-budget UFO movie "Who are you and where do you come from?" ... "Take us to your leader"
I always thought it was like a seance - "Is there anybody there? Knock once for yes, twice for no, and three times for 'Let me in, I'm your sodding archbishop'."
I haven't seen the service yet - I hope it's on iplayer. But, regarding the filioque, isn't it about time the CofE worked out what it actually believes about the Holy Spirit? She's going to be awfully miffed if we procrastinate much longer.
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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Thurible
Shipmate
# 3206
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
But, regarding the filioque, isn't it about time the CofE worked out what it actually believes about the Holy Spirit? She's going to be awfully miffed if we procrastinate much longer.
Indeed. The Pick and Choose Approach to the Creed seems a bit much, even for our beloved Church of the P&C.
Thurible
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"I've been baptised not lobotomised."
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
We believe, along with the main body of the Western Church, that (S)He proceeds from the Father and the Son. Nothing to 'work out' about that. And if the Orthodox contingent at the Enthronement didn't want to say that, they could just have drawn breath at that point, couldn't they?
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
We believe, along with the main body of the Western Church, that (S)He proceeds from the Father and the Son. Nothing to 'work out' about that. And if the Orthodox contingent at the Enthronement didn't want to say that, they could just have drawn breath at that point, couldn't they?
But the point is, as I understand it, the filioque was omitted from the text of the creed, as is permitted in Common Worship for ecumenical events.
It seems to be the caricature of the CofE at its worst - "We'll change what we say we believe, depending on whom we're talking to at the time."
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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Carys
Ship's Celticist
# 78
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Posted
Filioque was omitted at ++Rowan's enthronement too. Though both had Cosin's Come Holy Ghost, which implies it (thee of both). I liked it on the whole, but agree abo utilities the lack of shape.
Carys
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O Lord, you have searched me and know me
You know when I sit and when I rise
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Knopwood
Shipmate
# 11596
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Posted
Does CW contain the filioque in the modern-language order? We don't have it in the BAS (except for the "prayer book"-esque rite), only BCP.
Posts: 6806 | From: Tio'tia:ke | Registered: Jun 2006
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Ceremoniar
Shipmate
# 13596
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
We believe, along with the main body of the Western Church, that (S)He proceeds from the Father and the Son. Nothing to 'work out' about that. And if the Orthodox contingent at the Enthronement didn't want to say that, they could just have drawn breath at that point, couldn't they?
That's part of the point that I think that others are making. After all, The "main body of the Western Church" believes that He, not (S)He, proceeds from the Father.
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Thurible
Shipmate
# 3206
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LQ:
Does CW contain the filioque in the modern-language order? We don't have it in the BAS (except for the "prayer book"-esque rite), only BCP.
Yep.
Thurible
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"I've been baptised not lobotomised."
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
Even if it is true (and who knows?) the Western Church had no authority to introduce it into the Nicene Creed.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ceremoniar:
[QUOTE] After all, The "main body of the Western Church" believes that He, not (S)He, proceeds from the Father.
I am not aware that the supposed gender of any person of the Trinity (except the Second Person, as regards his human nature) is a matter of orthodox belief.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
quote:
Originally posted by Ascension-ite:
I do find it odd that it was not a Eucharist, however I can see with the quasi-State nature of something like this why they decided upon that, however with all the warring factions under one roof one would hope that breaking bread together might have helped in a positive way, although I'm probably being naive.
Unfortunately some of those factions refuse to break bread with others.
That may not actually be the reason.
Outside rather niche areas of the CofE, it is not usual to have a Communion Service at which only a very limited number of people are allowed to communicate. Those 'in good standing' normally expect to receive. Indeed in a longish lifetime, I can only think of two examples otherwise, and both were for unusual pastoral reasons. Receiving is a more fundamental part of most CofE lay peoples' understanding of the nature of the Eucharist than is the case in some other ecclesial communities.
Including an episcopal enthronement in a Eucharist, would mean one of the following options:-
- a very brief enthronement part of the service;
- some way of communicating a large number of people very quickly without its becoming undignified and without making non-communicating persons feel uncomfortable; since that might include widely respected and welcomed ecumenical guests who would feel constrained by their own disciplines not to receive, cardinals, patriarchs, moderators etc, it would draw attention to our differences;
- a very, very long service; or
- only the new Archbishop and perhaps one or two other key people communicating, which really isn't good CofE theology or tradition.
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
Even if it is true (and who knows?) the Western Church had no authority to introduce it into the Nicene Creed.
That may or may not be true but it's neither here nor there. That's the version of the Nicene Creed which we have. Perfectly possible to be friendly to the Orthodox while respecting their right to omit filioque and ours to include it.
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Outside rather niche areas of the CofE, it is not usual to have a Communion Service at which only a very limited number of people are allowed to communicate. Those 'in good standing' normally expect to receive. Indeed in a longish lifetime, I can only think of two examples otherwise, and both were for unusual pastoral reasons. Receiving is a more fundamental part of most CofE lay peoples' understanding of the nature of the Eucharist than is the case in some other ecclesial communities.
I think you are generally right. But it's not that long ago (well, 30 years or so I suppose) I recall attending an episcopal consecration at which it was made clear that only the newly-ordained bishops and their families would be allowed to receive. 'Unusual pastoral reasons' maybe, but not a 'niche area' unless any Establishment service counts as that.
It used to be common at a 'nuptial mass' (despite its name, not unusual in MOTR circles too) for communion to be given to the couple alone.
quote:
Including an episcopal enthronement in a Eucharist, would mean one of the following options:-
- some way of communicating a large number of people very quickly without its becoming undignified and without making non-communicating persons feel uncomfortable; since that might include widely respected and welcomed ecumenical guests who would feel constrained by their own disciplines not to receive, cardinals, patriarchs, moderators etc, it would draw attention to our differences;
This did not seem to be a problem at St Peter's the other day. Admittedly communion under one kind (which I assume is what they did) is marginally quicker, but enough ministers and communion stations should ensure it is done efficiently, reverently and reasonably quickly. I doubt if the many representatives of other faiths and communions felt uncomfortable there; why should they at Canterbury?
Having said all that, maybe a eucharistic enthronement at Canterbury would not be a good idea for other reasons.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
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Indifferently
Shipmate
# 17517
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Posted
It was a little bit incoherent and all over the place. A bit of Cranmer here, a bit of African dancing there (what on earth does that have to do with the English Protestant church?), no communion, Common Worship sort of... and the 'symbols on the altar' was a farce with nothing to do with Jesus Christ. And a pointless ecumenical gesture to the Orthodox who we ruined any chance of unity with twenty years ago.
So really a perfect ceremony for today's Church of England.
Posts: 288 | From: United Kingdom | Registered: Jan 2013
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Thurible
Shipmate
# 3206
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Indifferently:
a bit of African dancing there (what on earth does that have to do with the English Protestant church?)
the English Protestant church that's quite big in Africa?
Thurible
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"I've been baptised not lobotomised."
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
Confused. In the C of E, anyone of good standing in their own church may receive communion.
At the Coronation (the ultimate establishment service, surely), only the Queen and Prince Philip communicated.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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Mamacita
Lakefront liberal
# 3659
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Posted
A PDF of the Order of Service is available here.
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Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world’s grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.
Posts: 20761 | From: where the purple line ends | Registered: Dec 2002
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mamacita:
A PDF of the Order of Service is available here.
Who is the Ostiarius? (page 6). What a splendid job title.
[ 22. March 2013, 17:07: Message edited by: Angloid ]
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
Who is the Ostiarius? (page 6). What a splendid job title.
Basically an "usher" or "doorkeeper."
[ 22. March 2013, 17:11: Message edited by: Oblatus ]
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Uriel
Shipmate
# 2248
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Posted
I found the whole service rather disappointing, and a chance to communicate something of the Christian faith to the wider world sadly missed. Too many words - any service which has a lawyer reading out a declaration towards the start is not going well.
Here was an opportunity to have a lively, engaging, accessible service to persuade anyone tuning in that there is more to the C of E than long, wordy services crammed with formality and where the only music is from choir and organs. It came across to me as a rather joyless affair without much warmth or personality, and the fidgeting choirboys and rather bored children in the congregation only re-inforced that. Given the contrast with the new Pope getting out into the crowds, shaking hands, speaking informally off the cuff, I think we have confirmed some unfortunate sterotypes about stuffy old Anglicanism.
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BroJames
Shipmate
# 9636
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Thurible:
quote:
Originally posted by LQ:
Does CW contain the filioque in the modern-language order? We don't have it in the BAS (except for the "prayer book"-esque rite), only BCP.
Yep.
Thurible
And CW contains the Nicene Creed omitting the filioque with a note specifying that quote:
[The] text of the Nicene Creed, which omits the phrase 'and the Son' in the third paragraph, may be used on suitable ecumenical occasions
Reading around, it seems that the CW provision reflects where the Church of England and wider Anglicanism stands on the question.
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Uriel:
I found the whole service rather disappointing, and a chance to communicate something of the Christian faith to the wider world sadly missed. Too many words - any service which has a lawyer reading out a declaration towards the start is not going well.
..... Given the contrast with the new Pope getting out into the crowds, shaking hands, speaking informally off the cuff, I think we have confirmed some unfortunate sterotypes about stuffy old Anglicanism.
The unfortunate consequence of Establishment I'm afraid. Those who defend it as 'keeping the Church in touch with the people' need a reality check.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
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Chapelhead
I am
# 21
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
Except the symbolism seems to express the distorted (solely English?) medieval idea that the Bishop is a visitor to his cathedral and not the chief minister of it. I know that is probably the legal position, but it's bad theology IMHO.
But isn't this true of any parish church, where the incumbent technically owns the building? Surely the Dean is a Priest answerable to the Bishop, just as any parish Priest is.
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At times like this I find myself thinking, what would the Amish do?
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Twangist
Shipmate
# 16208
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Posted
quote:
I think you are generally right. But it's not that long ago (well, 30 years or so I suppose) I recall attending an episcopal consecration at which it was made clear that only the newly-ordained bishops and their families would be allowed to receive. 'Unusual pastoral reasons' maybe, but not a 'niche area' unless any Establishment service counts as that.
It used to be common at a 'nuptial mass' (despite its name, not unusual in MOTR circles too) for communion to be given to the couple alone.
How does that work theologically?
And would the president omit the "draw near with faith ...." bit?
quote:
the Orthodox who we ruined any chance of unity with twenty years ago.
As adorable as our Eastern brethren (and sister-en) are I suspect that bridges may have been burnt aprox 1000 years previously?
Was the NF hymn a political choice in any way?
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JJ
SDG
blog
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Indifferently
Shipmate
# 17517
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Posted
But I do love a great number of the old hymns that were sung. 'And can it be' can near enough stir me to tears.
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Twangist:
How does that work theologically?
And would the president omit the "draw near with faith ...." bit?
As venbede points out, at the Coronation, only the bishops, the Queen and the Duke of Edinburgh received. You'll find the order of service here, which does indeed contain the usual exhortation to draw near with faith, and take this holy Sacrament to your comfort, and the usual post-communion prayer. It's standard 1662 BCP, with a coronation added to it.
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Twangist
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# 16208
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Posted
What confuses me is that in these examples the exhortation is addressed to everyone (a great many of whom would normally communicate) but not actually meant for them all - would a modified wording be a better fit?
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JJ
SDG
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BroJames
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# 9636
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Posted
Modify the 1662 BCP!!! ![[Eek!]](eek.gif) if it was good enough for St. Paul…
Posts: 3374 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2005
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BroJames
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# 9636
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Twangist:
Was the NF hymn a political choice in any way?
NF=??
I suspect "In Christ alone" was chosen precisely because of that Christocentric theme. Many people who don't find PSA a big problem don't even really notice the 'wrath of God' line.
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Knopwood
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# 11596
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by BroJames:
Many people who don't find PSA a big problem ...
With so many (presumably theologically trained) bishops and senior clergy in one place, there should have been plenty about who did!
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