Ship of Fools: Chrism Mass

Thread: Chrism Mass Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

To visit this thread, use this URL:
http://forum.ship-of-fools.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=70;t=025790

Posted by Hart (# 4991) on :

Have people had theirs yet? How did it go? Ours was excellent this year (I have to admit, some years I go out of a sense of duty rather than because I think I'll find it nourishing). They kept it pretty short: 1hr40, although they started 5 minutes late. It was a mix of English (mainly), Spanish (one reading, about half the hymns), and Latin (the Gloria, and a few motets dotted about here and there).

Bishop's homily was excellent: the gospel for this mass is Luke 4:16-21 and this is the first time I've heard a bishop preach almost exclusively on the commission of bringing good news to the poor that comes with anointing. Trickle down papacy! Mostly, he seemed more energized than he sometimes does (he keeps a very busy schedule, which is impressive, but means he often comes across as tired). He came across as genuinely pleased to see so many. Of course, he thanked his priests in particular, but also thanked all the religious (naming each order present), the seminarians, and he even recognized the student government members of one of the local Catholic High School who had not been announced and gave them a shout-out at one point.

Two of our deacons deaconed, and it was moving to see them assist with making the chrism that in less than two weeks they'll be anointed with. All in all, a wonderful occasion to pray for all the people that will receive grace through the church's various anointing ministries over the coming year.

Posted by Indifferently (# 17517) on :

I went to the Ebbsfleet one - it was pretty much the sort of High Anglican Mass I am used to, candles, incense, bells, a great sermon. Plenty of excellent old fashioned hymnody (only one Townend number) and reasonably well attended.

I will attend our diocesan one and the Roman Catholic one in the next couple of days, by way of comparison. I expect both to be liturgically lower and the RC one to have considerably fewer hymns but that's just a guess.

Posted by Amos (# 44) on :

Sounds wonderful, Hart!
Over here most Chrism Masses are on Maundy Thursday--with (I am told) the exception of the Diocese of Worcester. Bishop John is now Almoner to Her Majesty, and will be assisting her at the Maundy. As a consequence (and because Bishop John wasn't willing to hand over to his suffragan) Worcester Diocese had its Chrism Mass yesterday. I've yet to hear how it went. Anyone? And what was the attendance like, I wonder?

Posted by Triple Tiara (# 9556) on :

So which is it?

quote:
Originally posted by Indifferently:
I went to the Ebbsfleet one - it was pretty much the sort of High Anglican Mass I am used to, candles, incense, bells, a great sermon. Plenty of excellent old fashioned hymnody (only one Townend number) and reasonably well attended.

quote:
Originally posted by Indifferently:
So will this be a very "high church" affair, with elevation of the elements and the presence of chasuble? I find it interesting this is being called "Mass" rather than "Eucharist" or "Holy Communion". Am I to expect incense and bells?

......

Oh none of it is bad news to me, I am just curious. I consider chasuble and incense high church in so far that their 're emergence in the English Church has been fairly recent. I don't mind my excursions to such events!

Being a Prayer Book and Articles sort of Catholic it's not really my preference but I don't mind it,

Posted by Thurible (# 3206) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Amos:
Sounds wonderful, Hart!
Over here most Chrism Masses are on Maundy Thursday--with (I am told) the exception of the Diocese of Worcester.

Oxford and Chichester are other exceptions.

Oxford's was today; I didn't go.

Thurible

Posted by kingsfold (# 1726) on :

Our survey says 2 out of 7 Scottish Episcopal Chrism masses are not Maundy Thurs (Moray, Ross & Caithness and Glasgow and Galloway).
Glasgow & Galloway was due to have two, but one was cancelled due to bad weather.

My google fu is failing to find a date for Argyll & the Isles, and the other 4 are on Muandy Thurs.

[ 26. March 2013, 17:31: Message edited by: kingsfold ]

Posted by Trisagion (# 5235) on :

We had ours today because we have priests coming from our Channel Island parishes and it means they can get back in time for the Triduum. I understand that they do the same in Westminster - it taking a very great time to get to the more remote parts of Hertfordshire.

Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :

Liverpool's was yesterday. It used to be on Maundy Thursday but I gather some priests complained that they were too busy. Transport shouldn't be a factor because nowhere in the diocese is more than an hour's drive, or train ride, away.

The bishops for the last couple of years have 'dressed down': alb and stole instead of cope and mitre. It sort of makes sense, but rather spoilt by the cathedral chapter parading in copes. Weird or what?

Posted by Arethosemyfeet (# 17047) on :

quote:
Originally posted by kingsfold:
Our survey says 2 out of 7 Scottish Episcopal Chrism masses are not Maundy Thurs (Moray, Ross & Caithness and Glasgow and Galloway).
Glasgow & Galloway was due to have two, but one was cancelled due to bad weather.

My google fu is failing to find a date for Argyll & the Isles, and the other 4 are on Muandy Thurs.

It's not listed in the services at the Cathedral in Oban. I would have thought it would be a bit of a challenge for most clergy in the diocese to get to a central location and get back to their charges in reasonable time.

Posted by Forthview (# 12376) on :

By chance I was in Oban on Tuesday,5th March.Passing the Episcopal cathedral of St John about 5.30 pm I heard music and went inside to see what was happening.It was a Diocesan synod eucharist at which the bishop also blessed the Holy Oils.Given that there were probably delegates from a good number of far flung parishes I'm sure it made good sense to bless the oils at that time.

I've just come back from the Chrism Mass for the archdiocese of St Andrews and Edinburgh.Although there is usually a good attendance at the Chrism Mass I thought that the attendance of 2000 people was pretty good with about 100 priests.
Given the 'distressing and perplexing circumstances' in which the diocese finds itself during its own sedevacante this was a really good turnout and was greatly encouraging both for the priests of the diocese and the Apostolic Administrator who was warmly applauded after his talk about the 'distressing and perplexing circumstances of the demission and departure of the Cardinal Archbishop'.

Posted by Carys (# 78) on :

Manchester's was Monday too I gather, because it was switched when Bp Nigel was almoner and hasn't gone back.

Carys

Posted by Deputy Verger (# 15876) on :

Why are there no Mystery Worship reports from so many interesting services? I'd be fascinated...

Posted by Forthview (# 12376) on :

I wonder if 'dressing down' as Angloid said,is a general feature of Chrism Masses (I haven't been to one for a few years ).At last night's Chrism Mass in Edinburgh there were three bishops present and none of them was wearing a mitre.

Posted by Indifferently (# 17517) on :

There certainly wasn't any dressing down at the Ebbsfleet one. The bishops had mitres on and one was wearing one of those pink skull caps (can't remember what they're called) too. All the priests wore chasubles. I expect the Bristol one tomorrow to be markedly different.

Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :

Darwin's was today. I had a parish Eucharist so couldn't be there. I would imagine the tradition here is air-conditioner and damp cloth.

Posted by dj_ordinaire (# 4643) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Deputy Verger:
Why are there no Mystery Worship reports from so many interesting services? I'd be fascinated...

MW reports don't emerge until after they've been written up, submitted and edited, which may take some time. You might have a look for some from previous years though!

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Deputy Verger:
Why are there no Mystery Worship reports from so many interesting services? I'd be fascinated...

There was a batch of MW reports from Chrism masses all over the UK 2 or 3 years ago, one of which was mine.

Posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop (# 10745) on :

This year so far, I have already been to the Chrism Masses both at Portsmouth Anglican Cathedral (for forward-in-faith), last Saturday (the day before Palm Sunday) and at Westminster Cathedral yesterday (Tuesday). I am planning to do it again tomorrow (Thursday) at Guildford Cathedral.

Posted by Thurible (# 3206) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop:
This year so far, I have already been to the Chrism Masses both at Portsmouth Anglican Cathedral (for forward-in-faith),

Point of Order:

Whilst there is overlap, this Chrism Mass was for those who look to the Bishop of Richborough for extended episcopal care, rather than for members of Forward in Faith.

I cannot imagine that Ebbsfleet is the only area where there are C priests who are resolutely not members of FiF.

Thurible

Posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop (# 10745) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Thurible:

quote:
Originally posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop:
This year so far, I have already been to the Chrism Masses both at Portsmouth Anglican Cathedral (for forward-in-faith),
Point of Order:

Whilst there is overlap, this Chrism Mass was for those who look to the Bishop of Richborough for extended episcopal care, rather than for members of Forward in Faith.

I cannot imagine that Ebbsfleet is the only area where there are C priests who are resolutely not members of FiF.

Thurible

The OP is the main point of this thread and that was by Hart, who I think is Roman Catholic and therefore would not belong to f-i-f, let alone C of E. I apologise for any careless wording on my part, but your point is not disputed and I have no disagreement with it.

Posted by Panda (# 2951) on :

Ours was yesterday (Tuesday) because our diocese is a bit far-flung and people are quite busy on Maundy Thursday. It was treated as if it were Thurs though - we sang the Gloria.

Posted by aig (# 429) on :

I attended the Chichester one yesterday. There were a number of Bishops in mitres. They may have been wearing copes as well but when the procession went past all I could see were mitres - Chichester Cathedral has terrible sight lines.
What was new was that the clergy were permitted to wear stoles: I don't know when this was banned and all had to wear choir dress, but I believe it related to the advent of women priests. Some people see this as the spring flowers of hope...

Some others think that you can too fixated on tat and it would be much better if the clergy didn't robe for this...And it would be quicker because they wouldn't endlessly process in and out.

Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :

Good to hear about the spring flowers in Chichester! But I agree it is much better if clergy don't robe for occasions like this. It makes sense if they concelebrate but not everyone agrees that is a good idea.

Posted by Thurible (# 3206) on :

I only attended the Chichester Chrism Mass once - in +John's time, at Lancing. I can't remember them not wearing stoles but that obviously doesn't mean that they were.

It was then, if I remember correctly, a Eucharist with Renewal of Ministerial Commitment, so as to include Readers.

Thurible

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :

Our P-in-C attended the Fulham Chrism Mass yesterday, at St. Alban's, Holborn. +Peter of Edmonton presided, +Jonathan being engaged in moving house!

Father says it was a good service, though he does not report on the number of mitres, stoles, chasubles, etc., being sadly indifferent to such vital matters. Doubtless he was busy paying attention to what +Peter was saying and doing.

Ian J.

Posted by Indifferently (# 17517) on :

I have been to three Chrism Masses this week, and to be quite honest with you the Roman Catholic one was probably the best one.

Bristol Cathedral - Ebbsfleet Chrism Mass - was a little bit too stuffy and 'high church' for my liking, but there was a decent amount of music, most of it congregational. Great sermon from the Bishop of Plymouth on being God's pilgrim people. The Mass was concelebrated. The Gospel was chanted. This also had the best selection of hymns.

Clifton RC Cathedral - Chrism Mass - very folksy. The music director came out shortly before, encouraged us to sing along with the musical settings, and even gave us a little chance to rehearse the psalm response and the song to the Holy Spirit we sung in blessing the oils. Bishop Declan preached standing in front of the altar in a friendly and endearing manner.

Bristol Cathedral - Diocesan Chrism Eucharist - this was by far the worst. The whole Eucharistic prayer, including the Sursum Corda, was said. There was a grand total of three hymns. The Gloria, Sanctus and Agnus Dei were all sung in obscure choral arrangements in Latin, as were two brief anthems during the communion. The Bishop celebrated alone. He also gave some psychobabble sermon about the mob mentality which basically said God was 'well pleased' with us and that 'they' will never be happy.

The Roman Church service was also by far the most full out of the three. The only thing I would say against it were that the choices of hymns, though fun to sing, were quite modern and a little dodgy. Singing in Jesus's voice, particularly words we only 'think' he 'might' have said them, is a little bit possibly heretical. But overall, they were better at doing low church than we were at High Church, by far and away.

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :

So you think the Romans did rather better than us poor old benighted (and probably doomed) Anglicans?

Why am I not surprised to hear you say that?

[Disappointed]

Ian J.

Posted by Indifferently (# 17517) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
So you think the Romans did rather better than us poor old benighted (and probably doomed) Anglicans?

Why am I not surprised to hear you say that?

Ian J.

You should be surprised. Since I've got absolutely no intention of joining the Roman Catholic Church, and have inherited some sort of anti-RC prejudice I don't quite understand, I was very pleasantly surprised by their service (I thought there would be two mumbled hymns and everything else would be in Latin - but that turned out to be what we got at the Anglican Cathedral).

I've got to praise them when they do things well. I think everyday Roman Catholicism is a lot different from the stern face of doctrinal RCism and some of their hierarchy and 'traditionalists' make out. Their bishop, for example, replaced the word 'sons' with 'brothers' when addressing the priests, which I thought was very touching.

Posted by Liturgylover (# 15711) on :

quote:
I was very pleasantly surprised by their service (I thought there would be two mumbled hymns and everything else would be in Latin - but that turned out to be what we got at the Anglican Cathedral).

Out of interest what were the hymns and did the congregation sing them? I was amazed that at last Sunday's 5.30pm sung mass at Westminster Cathedral, the only person singing the processional hymn All Glory, Laud and Honour among the several hundred there was the cantor

[fixed code - preview post is your friend]

[ 28. March 2013, 17:06: Message edited by: seasick ]

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :

...and that sort of thing has been my experience, too, at RC services (though, judging by some recent MW Reports, the same is not true of all!).

Ian J.

Posted by Indifferently (# 17517) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Liturgylover:

quote:
I was very pleasantly surprised by their service (I thought there would be two mumbled hymns and everything else would be in Latin - but that turned out to be what we got at the Anglican Cathedral).

Out of interest what were the hymns and did the congregation sing them? I was amazed that at last Sunday's 5.30pm sung mass at Westminster Cathedral, the only person singing the processional hymn All Glory, Laud and Honour among the several hundred there was the cantor

Because I'm fairly canny about Roman Catholics not singing the hymns put in front of them, I made sure to sit on the end-aisle right next to where the (non-robed) choir (well I think they were the choir) were sat. I sang, and the gent next to me sang, and the choir sang, and I thought I could hear others around me singing... but my usual experience at Roman parishes and cathedrals is that nobody sings. Perhaps it was the cantor coming out before the Mass and encouraging everyone to practise the responses that helped? I gather this is happening in quite a few places now so maybe their hierarchy has cottoned on to it and is trying to sort it out.

[fixed code - preview post is your friend]

[ 28. March 2013, 17:37: Message edited by: seasick ]

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Indifferently:
Bristol Cathedral - Diocesan Chrism Eucharist - this was by far the worst. The whole Eucharistic prayer, including the Sursum Corda, was said. There was a grand total of three hymns. The Gloria, Sanctus and Agnus Dei were all sung in obscure choral arrangements in Latin, as were two brief anthems during the communion. The Bishop celebrated alone. He also gave some psychobabble sermon about the mob mentality which basically said God was 'well pleased' with us and that 'they' will never be happy.

It doesn't sound like the glorious Chrism Eucharist I attended this morning in bristol.

Great diocesan family atmosphere . Lots of catching up while robing.

It is normal for the preface to be said these days - maybe + Mike can't sing - but neither can the present pope, if you noticed his inaugural mass. At Choral Evensong, a lay clerk sings the versicles - the canons don't do it (shame in my opinion).

There were 4 hymns, not 3 as you claimed:

Christ is made
Blest by the sun
When i survey
Lift high the cross

That both our bishops plus the hon. asst. bishop are evangelicals, it is great that 2 of them happily wear chasubles - and the hon. asst always wears rochet and chimere but today, for the first time ever, they got him to wear a stole.

The 'obscure Latin' was the very well-known Missa Brevis by Benjamin Britten. As it was the girls' choir (the full choir are on for the last Supper Eucharist later) which mass setting would you recommend for unison singing?

The motets were a mixed bag:

Salvator Mundi was by David Bednall, the director of music. I dislike his music but this was one of his better offerings.

O sacrum convivium by Leighton isn't to everyone's taste.

The sermon, as is a usual from + Mike, was excellent. he always uses the Chrism eucharist to address the clergy and lay ministers and is always very honest. If you think that the writings of the late Cardinal Basil Hume or Bishop David Jenkins are 'psychobabble' then you either have no experience of public ministry or little self-knowledge.

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

By the way, is this some sort of new hobby? Where some do pub crawls, someone above seems to he Chrism Mass crawling.

Do 'I Spy' issue a book where you can collect points for copes, chasubles, maniples, mitres, double-points for thuribles?

On a more serious note, I have asked before why the deacons carrying the oils wear different coloured dalmatics. Nobody, ever here on this board with its higher than average number of liturgy-lovers, could give an answer, except to say that the RCC doesn't do it so it must be an Anglican invention.

I now know the answer because our deacon carried the oil for healing in a purple dalmatic. She told me that:

purple - for penitence, part of the sacrament of the sick

green for catechumens - new life

white for chrism, which the bishop breathes in - for the holy Spirit at Confirmation and ordination (though, no doubt, someone will say that ought to be red)

Posted by Indifferently (# 17517) on :

quote:
Originally posted by leo:

quote:
Originally posted by Indifferently:
Bristol Cathedral - Diocesan Chrism Eucharist - this was by far the worst. The whole Eucharistic prayer, including the Sursum Corda, was said. There was a grand total of three hymns. The Gloria, Sanctus and Agnus Dei were all sung in obscure choral arrangements in Latin, as were two brief anthems during the communion. The Bishop celebrated alone. He also gave some psychobabble sermon about the mob mentality which basically said God was 'well pleased' with us and that 'they' will never be happy.
It doesn't sound like the glorious Chrism Eucharist I attended this morning in bristol.

Great diocesan family atmosphere . Lots of catching up while robing.

It is normal for the preface to be said these days - maybe + Mike can't sing - but neither can the present pope, if you noticed his inaugural mass. At Choral Evensong, a lay clerk sings the versicles - the canons don't do it (shame in my opinion).

There were 4 hymns, not 3 as you claimed:

Christ is made
Blest by the sun
When i survey
Lift high the cross

That both our bishops plus the hon. asst. bishop are evangelicals, it is great that 2 of them happily wear chasubles - and the hon. asst always wears rochet and chimere but today, for the first time ever, they got him to wear a stole.

The 'obscure Latin' was the very well-known Missa Brevis by Benjamin Britten. As it was the girls' choir (the full choir are on for the last Supper Eucharist later) which mass setting would you recommend for unison singing?

The motets were a mixed bag:

Salvator Mundi was by David Bednall, the director of music. I dislike his music but this was one of his better offerings.

O sacrum convivium by Leighton isn't to everyone's taste.

The sermon, as is a usual from + Mike, was excellent. he always uses the Chrism eucharist to address the clergy and lay ministers and is always very honest. If you think that the writings of the late Cardinal Basil Hume or Bishop David Jenkins are 'psychobabble' then you either have no experience of public ministry or little self-knowledge.

Well I know plenty of priests who can't sing a note who still sing away the whole preface and sursum corda. Why? Because the Lord does not judge us on our quality of performance.

It was just a very boring event, and he mentioned 'sociology' and that sort of thing. I only recognized one priest in the whole thing - recognizing far more priests at the Ebbsfleet event on Saturday.

I wonder what Bishop Michael was referring to when he started his little chat about 'tolerance' but cut himself off before he could say anything interesting.

As for stoles or chasubles, I could do without them.

Did you attend the other Chrism Masses I mentioned? They were better for a reason. A number of reasons, actually, but all linked to the one. And the RC one was the best probably because it was a proper family event, where the Anglican one had half the family missing (for very understandable reasons).

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

There were more robed ministers than ever before according to Wendy the precentor - pretty much every parish represented. So who are 'the half' that are 'missing'?

Even the evangelical parishes are using oils now.

I only go to the chrism mass where i renew my vows. Why would I want to go to any other?

I am not going to say any more except to apologise if there is a tone of rudeness or annoyance in my responses above. Seasick has already made a comment, on another thread, about some people belittling worship styes and lacking respect so i don't want to ratchet things up.

Whatever people here do as we go deeper into the triduum, I hope we grow closer to Crist and to each other, regardless of the number of candles we light or their height.

Posted by Indifferently (# 17517) on :

As for the Mass setting, Marbecke would have done the job.

Posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop (# 10745) on :

quote:
Originally posted by leo:
I only go to the chrism mass where i renew my vows. Why would I want to go to any other?

Today, Maundy Thursday, I completed the hat-trick of Chrism Masses for this year and I have been to Portsmouth Anglican Cathedral on Saturday, Westminster Cathedral on Tuesday and Guildford Cathedral today. As this particular liturgy only comes round once a year, I like to make the most of it by going more than once.

Posted by Indifferently (# 17517) on :

quote:
Originally posted by leo:
There were more robed ministers than ever before according to Wendy the precentor - pretty much every parish represented. So who are 'the half' that are 'missing'?

Even the evangelical parishes are using oils now.

I only go to the chrism mass where i renew my vows. Why would I want to go to any other?

I am not going to say any more except to apologise if there is a tone of rudeness or annoyance in my responses above. Seasick has already made a comment, on another thread, about some people belittling worship styes and lacking respect so i don't want to ratchet things up.

Whatever people here do as we go deeper into the triduum, I hope we grow closer to Crist and to each other, regardless of the number of candles we light or their height.

I also apologize if my style is a little brusque - all I mean in the sense of Christian charity but, alas, I am a flawed man.

Posted by Indifferently (# 17517) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop:

quote:
Originally posted by leo:
I only go to the chrism mass where i renew my vows. Why would I want to go to any other?
Today, Maundy Thursday, I completed the hat-trick of Chrism Masses for this year and I have been to Portsmouth Anglican Cathedral on Saturday, Westminster Cathedral on Tuesday and Guildford Cathedral today. As this particular liturgy only comes round once a year, I like to make the most of it by going more than once.

Hear hear!

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Indifferently:
As for the Mass setting, Marbecke would have done the job.

Doesn't fit the new translation - though there is an adaptation which has been privately published by a former organist of All Saints Clifton.

Very few people under the age of 55 know Merbecke.

Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :

quote:
Originally posted by leo:

quote:
Originally posted by Indifferently:
As for the Mass setting, Marbecke would have done the job.
Doesn't fit the new translation - though there is an adaptation which has been privately published by a former organist of All Saints Clifton.

Very few people under the age of 55 know Merbecke.

CR at Mirfield use parts of the Merbecke setting adapted to Common Worship, at least at weekday masses. But you're right, not many people these days know it. (And not every congregation, even with a long-established eucharistic tradition, does either.)

Posted by dj_ordinaire (# 4643) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Indifferently:
I only recognized one priest in the whole thing - recognizing far more priests at the Ebbsfleet event on Saturday.

Well thank goodness we now know how to judge a ceremony of Christian discipleship - 'does such-and-such in the fourteenth row recognise enough of the clergy'.

Seriously, it's time to grow up.

Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on :

Peterborough had theirs today.

Posted by malik3000 (# 11437) on :

quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Whatever people here do as we go deeper into the triduum, I hope we grow closer to Crist and to each other, regardless of the number of candles we light or their height.

AMEN!

Posted by malik3000 (# 11437) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Indifferently:
Well I know plenty of priests who can't sing a note who still sing away the whole preface and sursum corda. Why? Because the Lord does not judge us on our quality of performance.

Very true. But, with all due respect, I'd take it one step further. I don't think that the Lord really is concerned about whether the preface is chanted or spoken. Indeed the Lord just might look kindly on someone who, ought of consideration for the congregation, refrained from burdening them with atrocious chanting.

[ 29. March 2013, 02:47: Message edited by: malik3000 ]

Posted by geroff (# 3882) on :

quote:
Originally posted by leo:

Do 'I Spy' issue a book where you can collect points for copes, chasubles, maniples, mitres, double-points for thuribles?

Thanks for the idea Leo.
Is the Chrism Mass generally for the laity or just a clergy only event?

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

quote:
Originally posted by geroff:

quote:
Originally posted by leo:

Do 'I Spy' issue a book where you can collect points for copes, chasubles, maniples, mitres, double-points for thuribles?
Thanks for the idea Leo.
Is the Chrism Mass generally for the laity or just a clergy only event?

For all. Clergy in each of the three orders renew their vows - when it comes to the bishop(s), they renew their vows to a representative of the laity - in our case it was the diocesan secretary.

Readers/lay ministers renew their vows.
The rest of the congregation vow to support us but renew THEIR vows during the Easter Vigil.

Posted by Pia (# 17277) on :

I attended my first ever Chrism Mass yesterday (just as an acolyte - I was behind a pillar for much of it!), and thought it was really beautiful. My favourite bit was when the bishops renewed their vows to one of the choirgirls... I thought there was a lovely symbolic humility in that.

The congregation was probably about 50:50 clergy and laity, at a guess.

Thanks for the explanation above of the different coloured dalmatics... I wondered what was going on there. They stood out so much that I figured there must be some rationale for it, but it wasn't obvious.

Posted by geroff (# 3882) on :

So perhaps I will take some time off to join my wife at the service one year.

Posted by malik3000 (# 11437) on :

As a lay person, i have always liked to go to the Chrism mass when possible (which has only been 2 or 3 times due to logistics). Like Leo said, it's for all, lay or ordained. One time, when i was the choir director in a small church 100 miles from the diocesan cathedral, the pastor specifically invited me and a friend to accompany him.

Posted by Percy B (# 17238) on :

Looking at some photos of an RC Chrism mass it seemed that the blessing of oils was a co celebrated act, priests stretching out their hands with the Bishop.

Is this right?

Posted by Thurible (# 3206) on :

For the chrism, yes.

Thurible

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Indifferently:
Bristol Cathedral - Diocesan Chrism Eucharist - this was by far the worst. ....The Bishop .....gave some psychobabble sermon about the mob mentality which basically said God was 'well pleased' with us and that 'they' will never be happy.

I have just got the text of this sermon and wonder which of these you consider to be psychobabble:

quote:
Professor
Reicher reminded us,“Crowds can be monstrous”. They can take our vulnerability and trample on it, a fact that Good Friday makes clear each year. A clergyperson said to me once that he
had shared his vulnerability with the
crowd, only to discover that at a later date,
this was used as evidence against him.
He was a broken man.

quote:
Basil Hume once wrote that you will never live well in the market place until you have learnt to live in the desert.

Whole text here

Posted by Thurible (# 3206) on :

It'll be the section that uses the word "vulnerability". The concept's fine but the word screams "psychobabble".

Thurible

Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :

Why? What would you use instead? Admittedly it's a many-syllabled Latin word as opposed to blunt Anglo-saxon, but you'd expect the congregation at a Chrism Mass (largely clergy) to understand it and see the point.

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Thurible:
It'll be the section that uses the word "vulnerability". The concept's fine but the word screams "psychobabble".

Thurible

So the 'wounds' of Christ, vulnerō, within which we pray to be hidden, are psychobabble'?

Posted by Indifferently (# 17517) on :

quote:
Originally posted by leo:

quote:
Originally posted by Thurible:
It'll be the section that uses the word "vulnerability". The concept's fine but the word screams "psychobabble".

Thurible
So the 'wounds' of Christ, vulnerō, within which we pray to be hidden, are psychobabble'?

"Wounds" is not in the least bit Latinate.

Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :

as long as the word is not pronounced "vunnerable" it is fine [Mad]

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

[Killing me]

UBB.classic^TM 6.5.0