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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Church attendance - is this a blip or is the drop really levelling?
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
One hopes it's a leveling. I suppose we'll find out when the numbers drop out of the barrel next year.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
It's probably not quite either. But it is a piece of good news for the CofE.
Some say that the process of secularisation isn't linear, but that it includes different things going on at the same time. New forms of spirituality pop up to compensate for the weakening of ties between the historical churches and their former constituencies, and old forms of spirituality may become attractive to some people who've grown weary of either spiritual novelty, or of the lack of any public spirituality at all.
In other words, spiritual novelty and the retreat of public spirituality are now the norm, and some people are inevitably going to react against the norm. So, I can imagine that with so much social change going on at the moment the practice of churchgoing at Christmas evokes warm feelings of a more stable past.
Putting that aside, though, I haven't heard much talk from Christians recently about revival. I'm not an Anglican, and maybe you do have those discussions, but I'm more likely to hear (non-Anglican) friends and family members talk about how Jesus will soon be coming back.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
Especially bewildering is the sky rocketing attendance at cathedrals. What's that all about?
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
The news about increased Christmas attendances is a blip. The last time there was an increase was 2005, that was also the last time Christmas day fell on a Sunday. The Christmas trend is still downwards.
The full report contains this:
quote:
Methodological note: in 2011
a new estimation process was
used to fill in gaps of
incomplete and partially
complete returns from
parishes. The increase in
usual Sunday attendance
between 2010 and 2011 can
be attributed to missing data
in 2010.
We've changed the way we count. No conclusion either way is possible.
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Last ever sig ...
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Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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Bob Two-Owls
Shipmate
# 9680
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
Especially bewildering is the sky rocketing attendance at cathedrals. What's that all about?
I think we have covered this in detail before. IIRC the consensus was that Cathedrals offer the spiritual but not religious a bit of theatre without the danger of being asked to join a rota for anything. Even when I am in an atheist phase I often pop into the cathedral for the music and a coffee.
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
The realist in me thinks that it's pretty clear that this is just a blip, but getting out of the mentality of catastrophe for a change is nice. It doesn't seem that the UK statistics can drop much more- eventually ASA will hit that tiny percentage of people who just like waking up early to hear a lecture about loving each other and stuff with a little sentimental music.
[ 07. May 2013, 11:50: Message edited by: Zach82 ]
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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Liturgylover
Shipmate
# 15711
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Posted
Though I am inclined to think it is probably a blip, I am always wary of making firm conclusions based on changes in one year's data. If you look at the longer term trend, there is at least a slowing down in the rate of overall decline from the very dramatic falls in the 1970s and early 1980s.
I did see some other stats which showed a significant increase in weekday attendance which mirrored in the rise in Cathedral attendance which has already been discussed.
Posts: 452 | From: North London | Registered: Jun 2010
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Indifferently
Shipmate
# 17517
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Posted
Expect the decline to start levelling off soon. The government's persecution of Christians is presently merely at the thin end of the wedge. The Church is strongest when her back is against the wall, so I hope that this latest round of persecution rallies people to the Cross.
Posts: 288 | From: United Kingdom | Registered: Jan 2013
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
Especially bewildering is the sky rocketing attendance at cathedrals. What's that all about?
Generalizing quite a bit, but it seems to me that cathedrals tend to offer services that are more splendid and that are recognizable as Christian liturgies. In many parishes, you get a folksy mess offered with the excuse that it's what "the people" or "the youth" (both generally projections of the clergy's own needs/wants) want.
Also, the office (which is all but vanished from parish churches) is regularly said or sung in cathedrals; Morning and Evening Prayer tend to be better services for people who aren't in the club.
Finally, cathedrals allow people to be anonymous. When attending a parish church, there is a certain amount of pressure to socialize afterward, and if you show up several Sundays in a row someone's certain to try and recruit you for some "ministry" or other. For lots of people, it takes more time before they're ready for that; some people are never ready for it.
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
Posts: 2512 | From: Oakland, CA | Registered: Feb 2008
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Indifferently:
Expect the decline to start levelling off soon. The government's persecution of Christians is presently merely at the thin end of the wedge. The Church is strongest when her back is against the wall, so I hope that this latest round of persecution rallies people to the Cross.
Don't you think the word 'persecution' is a bit strong, given the horrors that Christians have experienced at certain points in history? (Often at the hands of other Christians, I hasten to add.)
I'm perfectly fine with discussing whether Christians are being picked on more now, for example with reference to the B&B owners who were found to have broken the law when they refused a double room booking from a gay couple. But calling it persecution...?
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
Posts: 3309 | From: The south coast (of England) | Registered: Jan 2011
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
"Persecution" is not where we are at all. Its nonsense.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
Any statistic based on a change in the way it is counted is nonsense.
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Last ever sig ...
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Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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dv
Shipmate
# 15714
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
Especially bewildering is the sky rocketing attendance at cathedrals. What's that all about?
I worship in a Cathedral 20 miles from home for many reasons, including:
* Excellence in music and liturgy
* Much better "hit rate" with sermons
* Friendlier, more diverse crowd than average parish church
* Opportunity for theological/spiritual education beyond services
* Better resourced in terms of clergy
* As single man in late 40s don't feel like a freak in Cathedral unlike local parish churches which are only interested in couples and families
* Greater opportunity for service in more ways
* Less hostility to Gay people
[ 07. May 2013, 23:04: Message edited by: dv ]
Posts: 70 | From: Lancs UK | Registered: Jun 2010
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
"Persecution" is not where we are at all. Its nonsense.
If Indifferently is in North Korea he's got a point. Otherwise, it looks like he actually wants to be persecuted. ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Indifferently:
Expect the decline to start levelling off soon. The government's persecution of Christians is presently merely at the thin end of the wedge. The Church is strongest when her back is against the wall, so I hope that this latest round of persecution rallies people to the Cross.
Mmmm well, I'm not sure I'd call it persecution merely indifference to the cause. It's secularism no more no less. The church will continue to decline (esp when the positive effect of the new way of counting from 2010 drops off - yes we know you did it), unless it stops arguing about daft things and returns to being a radical faith (rooted and challnging and prophetic)speaking out against and being prepared to deal with, the ills of society and injustice.
Try saying it's persecution to the Christians of say, Uzbekistan: I've been there and to be a Christian is to run the risk of disappearing. When we get to that point in the UK then I'll call it persecution: mind you we won't get there - we're far too nice about such things and horror of horrors that would mean removing the Queen: seemigly she's a Christian.
By the way, how does Brenda get away with it - talking about Jesus each year on the telly at Christmas? Surely that cross on her crown is offensive to so mnay .... no one else gets that liberty!
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
[QUOTE]Finally, cathedrals allow people to be anonymous. When attending a parish church, there is a certain amount of pressure to socialize afterward, and if you show up several Sundays in a row someone's certain to try and recruit you for some "ministry" or other. For lots of people, it takes more time before they're ready for that; some people are never ready for it.
How many people are like the woman I heard on the wireless yesterday. An advowed atheist she goes for the music and the singing.
Bigger numbers are not necessarily a sign of deeper faith per se. Whilst I understand some people's desire to come in, receive and go, what does that say about being committed to the body of the church? It seems to be church on our terms not on God's - pick n mix.
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
How someone who's living in a country partly governed by a House where some of its members sit purely on the basis of their high status within that person's own church can claim that church is persecuted is utterly beyond me.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Bob Two-Owls
Shipmate
# 9680
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Posted
But then again I often feel like persecuting some of the Christians I know, and I am nominally one myself. However, the UKIP bubble seems to have gone hand in hand with a renewed interest in British landmarks and history. The historic Chapel where I volunteer has had a marked increase in visitors in the past year and I think the Cathedral to which the Chapel belongs has had the same upturn. Most of the visitors seem to be "Spiritual but not religious" types but many enquire about the services, what happens, what it means and who can attend as if they are not hostile to the Church, it is just that the Church has never entered into their world. Cathedrals are ideally placed as the "showrooms" for people like this. Getting them into a damp (in every sense of the word) parish church may be rather more difficult.
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Percy B
Shipmate
# 17238
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Posted
It seems to me that while the statistics are not too discouraging they are hardly fantastic news!
After all the population is increasing and on the whole the church attendance is just about levelling or declining. Proportion of population it is descending, I guess. The C of E does seem to have appointed atatisticians who will adapt the counting system etc. and only push for good news, rather than address the reasons for slight decline.
Soon if someone walks into a cathedral or church to ask the way to B and Q thery will be counted as an attender entering a pastroal relationship with the clergy...
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Mary, a priest??
Posts: 582 | From: Nudrug | Registered: Jul 2012
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
I prefer the concept of 'gentle growth' as put forward by the Bishop of Exeter.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Percy B
Shipmate
# 17238
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Posted
It is difficult, I think, becuase such an approach can tend to push the view that the church's success, or otherwise, is measured in attendance figures.
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Mary, a priest??
Posts: 582 | From: Nudrug | Registered: Jul 2012
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Offeiriad
Ship's Arboriculturalist
# 14031
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Percy B:
The C of E does seem to have appointed statisticians who will adapt the counting system etc. and only push for good news, rather than address the reasons for slight decline.
This has been the gripe of a number of us for years. Around the time the system was last massaged, I remember a church treasurer telling a Bishop that 'there's isn't a financial crisis: just a new way of counting money'!
Church of England statistics: first of all, why does it take until now to handle 2011's figures? If we were serious about using the statistics constructively we'd have had 2012's figures in circulation in January 2013. Can you imagine a business trying to run itself on the basis of sales figures more than a year out of date? This is supposed to be a Computer Age!
A few years ago statistician Bob Jackson made some brave attempts to analyse the statistics and tell us what was going on. They published his books, ignored his conclusions (he might have been wrong, but nobody made any serious attempt to prove him wrong!), they made him an archdeacon, then they pensioned him off!
Does the C of E deserve to survive?
Posts: 1426 | From: La France profonde | Registered: Aug 2008
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
Especially bewildering is the sky rocketing attendance at cathedrals. What's that all about?
Generalizing quite a bit, but it seems to me that cathedrals tend to offer services that are more splendid and that are recognizable as Christian liturgies. In many parishes, you get a folksy mess offered with the excuse that it's what "the people" or "the youth" (both generally projections of the clergy's own needs/wants) want.
Also, the office (which is all but vanished from parish churches) is regularly said or sung in cathedrals; Morning and Evening Prayer tend to be better services for people who aren't in the club.
Finally, cathedrals allow people to be anonymous. When attending a parish church, there is a certain amount of pressure to socialize afterward, and if you show up several Sundays in a row someone's certain to try and recruit you for some "ministry" or other. For lots of people, it takes more time before they're ready for that; some people are never ready for it.
Yup. For some of us, many Parish Churches are actually too friendly and too interested in our private lives; I'm not talking about our predilections for tab A into slot B stuff here, just general stuff that perhaps other people are happy to talk about with people we've only known for a few weeks but others of us aren't.
My father went to our village Baptist Church once. He refused to ever go back there because what most people consider "friendly" to him was "bloody nosey".
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
I can answer in part, some of that.
Did you know that the statistician in charge actually changed recently? I can not remember whether in the last twelve months or the twelve before that but I certainly saw the job advertised. Changes in practice in these small departments (I suspect it is an over guesstimate to think of the department as existing of three people and a dog) tend to make changes in ways of counting.
I actually for about 2 hours consider applying, then decided I did not want to work in London and I did not want to deal with CofE politics (URC ones are quite enough thank you).
Secondly another one is the return rate. To get the 2011 figures, that means the congregation have to return the figures. So that means about March 2012 they start chasing the congregations who have not returned, about September they finally get in the last of them, then and only then can they start the analysis. Oh dear St Marcion the Lesser of Moreover has an attendance of 1000 at each service. Hmm perhaps that number is wrong, now is it our entry or do we have to go back to them or St Kenny's, Hashem had reported nobody coming to worship at all. Such cases perhaps make up 0.1% of the parishes but they take a lot of time to sort.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
That's easy. St Kenny's could be telling the truth, so go after the one claiming attendances of 1000 who can't be.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
I love cathedrals for many reasons. Firstly, my own church does not offer weekday services so knowing cathedrals offer regular daily services is a big help when I need some spiritual nourishment on a weekday. The anonymity thing is also important, and is why I'm much more likely to attend a cathedral service as opposed to a parish service on holiday. Yes, I'm one of those weirdos who goes to church while on holiday ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
Along with anonymity though is the space, literal and spiritual, to dip in and out, to move away into a side chapel if things are too intense, to go at your own pace and not the pace of the bossy churchwarden in front. And on more shallow terms, the standard of music and liturgy certainly helps. However the most common cathedral for me to visit is Westminster Cathedral so I'm not sure how much this helps the Anglican figures ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
[QUOTE]Finally, cathedrals allow people to be anonymous. When attending a parish church, there is a certain amount of pressure to socialize afterward, and if you show up several Sundays in a row someone's certain to try and recruit you for some "ministry" or other. For lots of people, it takes more time before they're ready for that; some people are never ready for it.
How many people are like the woman I heard on the wireless yesterday. An advowed atheist she goes for the music and the singing.
Bigger numbers are not necessarily a sign of deeper faith per se. Whilst I understand some people's desire to come in, receive and go, what does that say about being committed to the body of the church? It seems to be church on our terms not on God's - pick n mix.
The fact that an atheist is choosing to attend any kind of church is wonderful though. Faith doesn't have to be deep to be important. The 'avowed atheist' on the radio may well have a mustard seed somewhere.
I understand the importance of the local church body from the Baptist POV but you can be committed to belonging to the Church as a whole without finding what you need in your local parish church. And yes, some parish churches really are so unbearable that you can't stick it out there. What are God's terms here? That church is supposed to make us miserable? Church is for us, not for God - God doesn't need church. So church should reflect people's needs, and it sounds like cathedrals are doing that.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
[QUOTE]
1. The fact that an atheist is choosing to attend any kind of church is wonderful though. Faith doesn't have to be deep to be important. The 'avowed atheist' on the radio may well have a mustard seed somewhere.
2. I understand the importance of the local church body from the Baptist POV but you can be committed to belonging to the Church as a whole without finding what you need in your local parish church. And yes, some parish churches really are so unbearable that you can't stick it out there. What are God's terms here? That church is supposed to make us miserable? Church is for us, not for God - God doesn't need church. So church should reflect people's needs, and it sounds like cathedrals are doing that.
1. Yes it is good. But as she herself admitted there is no mustard seed of faith there, anywhere. I'd reiterate then, that numbers do not equate to a resurgance of faith.
2. Yes I belong to the church universal too - but a universal church expressed through an individual context (it doesn't have to be your local "place"). It doesn't where one worships but for it be recognisably Christian adherence from the perspective of theology and tradition, there is the demands of discipleship and commitment. The tradition of the church would not recognise the pick and mix approach as being an authentic expression of faith. And, if we decide to boot tradition on this score, then we have to boot it on the lot.
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
But what does God really require in terms of church attendance? That's the question I think. I don't think God checks attendance. Also, some people are at the stage where pick and mix church is the only kind they can face - it's how to build on that which is important, not get rid of it altogether.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
But what does God really require in terms of church attendance? That's the question I think. I don't think God checks attendance. Also, some people are at the stage where pick and mix church is the only kind they can face - it's how to build on that which is important, not get rid of it altogether.
What does God require - try Micah 6:8 for a start. You can't really do that unless you're connected.
ISTM that we want our cake and eat it. Yes, some churches are rubbish and aren't worthy of the name and they come in all shapes and sizes, across all denominations.
Actually, one of the worst offenders I've ever come across was a baptist church in Guernsey that ignored our party entirely during the distribution of communion. They just walked straight by us. Add to that a frosty glare when we went in (not late), a sermon that wasn't and you can understand why for the first time ever I walked out of a church service.
The issue is this: we want to pick the bits we like and drop or ignore the rest. Meeting together is about praising God but it isn't necessarily designed to make us comfortable - far from it. That's the issue that I, as an evangelical, have with many evangelical churches: too light, too smug, to mnay "in" jokes, too frothy, too shallow, lots of silly grins but not much engagement with real life. When people do get pulled up short, today's default mode is to complain or to leave. perish the thought that something might just need sorting out in your life.
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Indifferently:
Expect the decline to start levelling off soon. The government's persecution of Christians is presently merely at the thin end of the wedge. The Church is strongest when her back is against the wall, so I hope that this latest round of persecution rallies people to the Cross.
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif) ![[Ultra confused]](graemlins/confused2.gif)
Welcome to the Ship, Archbishop Carey! (I would apologise for outing you but it looks like you've done it yourself).
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
But what does God really require in terms of church attendance? That's the question I think. I don't think God checks attendance. Also, some people are at the stage where pick and mix church is the only kind they can face - it's how to build on that which is important, not get rid of it altogether.
What does God require - try Micah 6:8 for a start. You can't really do that unless you're connected.
ISTM that we want our cake and eat it. Yes, some churches are rubbish and aren't worthy of the name and they come in all shapes and sizes, across all denominations.
Actually, one of the worst offenders I've ever come across was a baptist church in Guernsey that ignored our party entirely during the distribution of communion. They just walked straight by us. Add to that a frosty glare when we went in (not late), a sermon that wasn't and you can understand why for the first time ever I walked out of a church service.
The issue is this: we want to pick the bits we like and drop or ignore the rest. Meeting together is about praising God but it isn't necessarily designed to make us comfortable - far from it. That's the issue that I, as an evangelical, have with many evangelical churches: too light, too smug, to mnay "in" jokes, too frothy, too shallow, lots of silly grins but not much engagement with real life. When people do get pulled up short, today's default mode is to complain or to leave. perish the thought that something might just need sorting out in your life.
Micah 6:8 has zero to do with church attendance. Plenty of Christians (and even non-Christians) follow it without setting foot in a church. It's about how you live your life, not what you do with your Sundays.
I get what you're saying about being uncomfortable but the average cathedral worshipper isn't expecting the kind of 'seeker-sensitive' approach that some evangelical churches have gone down (which I don't think has worked). I don't think it's about comfort. It's about a spiritual gap that cathedrals fill but churches don't. The question is why.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
Actually, one of the worst offenders I've ever come across was a baptist church in Guernsey that ignored our party entirely during the distribution of communion. They just walked straight by us.
That sounds awful. Even if they were "Strict and Particular" they should have explained just why you couldn't take Communion ... and the rest of it just sounds plain rude!
They should have a sign outside saying "Visitors Unwelcome".
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
ExclamationMark, I can see what you're getting at, but there have been times where, had a cathedral been readily to hand, I'd have happily gone there instead of my local church - of whatever stripe.
There are occasions when I feel that the only form of church service I could face would be a Quaker one - where nobody actually says anything!
Does that make my Christian discipleship and commitment any more deficient than those who love to go every Sunday and pitch into whatever is going?
Sure, the lady on the radio might be going along to the cathedral for the 'wrong reasons' but who is to say which of us are going to church for the 'right reasons'?
For all we know the person at the front leading the services and smiling and doing all the right stuff might be a right bastard outside.
As an extreme example, I know of an instance of a 'new church' leader - second in command in a large charismatic church - who was doing all the praying and prophesying and speaking in tongues and so on in the services - then driving down to the city's red-light district afterwards to spend hundreds of pounds on kinky sex. It later emerged he'd been abusing his own kids.
I'm not using this to bash that particular grouping over the head - far from it. We all know instances of people in church settings of all stripes who get up to no-good.
All I'm saying is that the outward appearance of discipleship and sanctity ain't always what it seems.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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The Midge
Shipmate
# 2398
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Posted
Perhaps it is partly down to the Missional/Pioneer/Alertnative/Mixed Economy (whatever the current term for it) movement that the last AoC promoted.
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Some days you are the fly.
On other days you are the windscreen.
Posts: 1085 | Registered: Feb 2002
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SvitlanaV2
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# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
The issue is this: we want to pick the bits we like and drop or ignore the rest. Meeting together is about praising God but it isn't necessarily designed to make us comfortable - far from it. That's the issue that I, as an evangelical, have with many evangelical churches: too light, too smug, to mnay "in" jokes, too frothy, too shallow, lots of silly grins but not much engagement with real life. When people do get pulled up short, today's default mode is to complain or to leave. perish the thought that something might just need sorting out in your life.
I think this is an issue in all kinds of churches, not just evangelical ones. Methodists talk about the importance of being 'challenged' in church, of not being in the business of offering mere entertainment during services. But in reality, I think almost all churches, sooner or later, identify a key core constituency of attenders, and then try to keep them satisfied for fear of losing them. Maybe they don't realise they're doing it. The 'challenging' only goes so far.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Zach82
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# 3208
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Posted
Sounds like it would be wise to export cathedral style worship to parishes.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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Bishops Finger
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# 5430
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Posted
And that's not such a far-fetched idea.....
.....identify those things that you (as an Average Parish Church) do well, and then do them as well as you possibly can. Or, to put it another way, concentrate on quality rather than trying to do everything, and perhaps doing it badly.
IYSWIM.
Ian J.
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
*sigh*
My last post was in reply to Zach82's!
(but a former churchwarden of ours used to be quite creative in his recording of attendances - 'Oh, round it up to 50/70/100'.......)
Ian J.
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
[QUOTE]That sounds awful. Even if they were "Strict and Particular" they should have explained just why you couldn't take Communion ... and the rest of it just sounds plain rude!
They should have a sign outside saying "Visitors Unwelcome".
Nope they weren't S & P - they were/are in BUGB. The service was as dire as the welcome - they were more interested i n putting bits in about their nice lunch they were going to have afterwards.
Contrast that to a baptist church in scotland where they not only made us welcome (two families totalling 9) but invited us to their bbq after the service.
In my "old" church (2000 to 2011) vintage we had people who would invite visitors home with them every week.
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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Bishops Finger
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# 5430
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Posted
I well remember the lovely welcome I received at a little Baptist Church in Scotland (Oban, to be precise) somewhen in the mid-70s. They were full of the joy of the Lord, and I hope very much that they're still flourishing.
I only went there because the Episcopal Cathedral was closed that Sunday - dunno why, but it may have been due to building works.....
Ian J.
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
No, Zach82, if you exported cathedral style worship to the parishes, you'd end up with a lot of people leaving ...
Despite what a cleric I know in County Durham says, I'm not sure that the people flocking to Durham Cathedral are previously unchurched. Most of them will be refugees from the parishes - either because they're escaping from drum-and-bass or because they don't want to be pestered onto any rostas or rotas.
A similar thing is happening on a smaller scale in semi-rural Cheshire. The medieval parish churches out in the villages have their congregations swelled by people from the towns who are fleeing dumbed-down services or liturgical innovations of various kinds - whether liberal or evangelical.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
[QUOTE]
1. Micah 6:8 has zero to do with church attendance. Plenty of Christians (and even non-Christians) follow it without setting foot in a church. It's about how you live your life, not what you do with your Sundays.
2.I don't think it's about comfort. It's about a spiritual gap that cathedrals fill but churches don't. The question is why.
1. It's all about attitude or perhaps we say our direction. Of course Sunday is about and is included in how you live. It is the day when the greatest number of people (still) can gather for corporate worship. If you seek justice and mercy you'll want to be in an environment where you can make the best of it - with other believers.
2. It's a gap true - but not wholly so. Preference and the rise of faith as individualistic (as opposed to individual) play a big part.
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
There are occasions when I feel that the only form of church service I could face would be a Quaker one - where nobody actually says anything!
Even Quaker services can be controlling - enforced silence?
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
We're supposed to count numbers in BUGB churches on a Sunday in December. I've never done it but always estimated the numbers. I don't see much point in it
One of the reasons I didn't go to a LEP church who called me was the fact that it counted attendance and communicants every week. Much better things to do, I'm afraid.
As Bishops Finger says - focus on quality. Focus on what you do well and don't try to do everything. Don't try and be like any other church - be yourself - that's what God's gifted and intended you to be.
On the other hand if you can't do much well and nothing much is happening, then I'd gracefully suggest some big changes are in order to prevent terminal decline (if you can by this stage).
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
Sounds like it would be wise to export cathedral style worship to parishes.
Our church has the largest attendance in the whole deanery (and beyond). I'm beginning to wonder whether it is because of the relative anonymity that we get so many turning up (regulars and visitors). And we like to do things 'properly' (well most of the time, anyway). Our music isn't bad either, but obviously not as good as the cathedral. We are mid-way between cathedrals (50 miles away), so I really do think there is a need for a cathedral-like Anglican church in our area, amongst the other churches to provide variety of approach. If people vote with their feet, then we must be doing something right. And those who don't like the formality have the choice of an evangelical church just up the road, plus several of other denominations within walking distance....
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
I don't suppose that making every parish a little cathedral is the best idea, but expanding the opportunities in that direction could be a good one.
I have this idea that family-sized parishes are wonderful places to worship, but perhaps they are a little intense for people who aren't used to that sort of thing. I know when I go to a new parish, I like to dodge out right after the service, and it's hard when you have to politely decline multiple invitations to coffee.
[ 08. May 2013, 21:20: Message edited by: Zach82 ]
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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