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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Churching
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Thurible
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# 3206
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Posted
Mrs Thurible brought a boatgirl into the world last week and, today being the first day we've been to church, she was churched.
This caused consternation is some quarters (not in the church itself) and I'm slightly baffled as to why.
This is the service that was used, although we did follow the 1928 rubric that had me kneeling at the altar-rail alongside.
This is the traditional Catholic version.
In neither of them is there any hint at all of "dirty childbirth/dirty sex", etc.
Thoughts?
Thurible
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"I've been baptised not lobotomised."
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Albertus
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# 13356
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Posted
First of all, good on Mrs Thurible (and you). As yoiu say, there's no 'dirty sex/ dirty women' stuff in the 1662 service, either - it's very explicitly a thanksgiving for a safe delivery, which for most of the period since 1662 was quite something to be thankful for and even today isn't something to take for granted. And to go back further, IIRC Latimer, in one of his sermons, explicitly makes the point that there is nothing 'impure' about childbirth.
But there's no doubt that there has been a folk-meaning of purification attached to the service. About 20 years ago I met a working-class woman from Lancashire who told me that in, I'd guess, the late 1940s or 1950s she, in common with many of her neighbours, did not leave the house after childbirth until she went to be churched. I suspect that it's this attitude that effectively lost us a useful and entirely appropriate rite of passage.
[ 26. May 2013, 20:28: Message edited by: Albertus ]
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The Silent Acolyte
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# 1158
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Thurible:
This caused consternation is some quarters (not in the church itself) and I'm slightly baffled as to why.
It must be the name. I can't imagine the same consternation to a "Thanksgiving of a Woman after Childbirth."
And, hearty congratulations.
[ 26. May 2013, 20:39: Message edited by: The Silent Acolyte ]
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venbede
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# 16669
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Posted
Congratulationos T and Mrs T.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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Mamacita
Lakefront liberal
# 3659
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Posted
First, congratulations to you and Mrs Thurible on the arrival of the boatgirl.
I agree that the Churching of Women does not suggest that sex or childbirth are dirty. I can only speculate on why people may have reacted badly; here are a few attempts.
For some people the rite of Churching may bring Candlemas to mind, and how Mary and Joseph had come to the Temple for her purification. I do not know whether the Christian rite of Churching has its origins in the Jewish rites of purification, but I suspect that some folks connect these dots whether or not they are intended.
Others may be uncomfortable with the rite's constant references to pain and danger. That is to overlook the very purpose of "The Thanksgiving of Women after Child-Birth." Up until the last century, childbirth was a leading cause of death in women, and it can still be a dangerous business.
I note, in comparing the Common Worship liturgy with that in the TEC 1979 (beginning on page 2 of this PDF), the American text has really downplayed the aspect of danger and focuses more on thanksgiving for the joy of the arrival of the child within the family unit. Psalm 116 has been edited to pretty much remove vv 2-11 (the pain/danger parts), and the prayer "we give thee humble thanks for that thou hast vouchsafed to deliver this woman thy servant from the great pain and peril of child-birth..." has become optional. The whole thing is certainly more upbeat.
This has got me thinking about cultural experiences of and attitudes to childbirth and how the last 3 decades has seen a resurgence of medicated labor, at least in the US, but that's probably a tangent unto itself, so I will desist.
(cross-posted with everybody)
[ 26. May 2013, 21:02: Message edited by: Mamacita ]
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Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world’s grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.
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Ann
Curious
# 94
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Posted
Congratulations!
Which psalm did you have: "all men are liars" or "quiver full"?
Idle minds and all that.
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Ann
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Zacchaeus
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# 14454
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Posted
What Albertus said, in the past there was a lot of folk religion and superstition attached to ‘churching.’ When I was younger, I knew older women whose mother’s in law or grandmothers wouldn’t let them into their houses until they had been ‘churched.’
I also knew one elderly lady who son died of a cot death and was told (by helpful friends) that it was because she had never been churched.
I think it grew out of favour because of the negative connotations that had become attached to it, rather than what was in the service itself.
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Qoheleth.
Semi-Sagacious One
# 9265
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Posted
Congratulations to all three. And what a glorious Feast for an Eccles wife to be Churched on. ![[Yipee]](graemlins/spin.gif)
<TANGENT>
Feast of Title was observed tonight at a former shipmate's former shack. ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
Q.
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Jon in the Nati
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# 15849
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Posted
Hearty congratulations to you, the missus, and the baby, Thurible.
The service (whatever one calls it) is a lovely one, and it is a shame more women do not feel the need to participate in it. A successful childbirth is truly something to give thanks for; I was scared to death when my son was born. I've tried to make the service available, but few have partaken in it; I usually do it every other year or so.
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Homer: Aww, this isn't about Jesus, is it?
Lovejoy: All things are about Jesus, Homer. Except this.
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Mamacita
Lakefront liberal
# 3659
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Posted
We've done it a few times at my parish. It is always moving and joyous. I find it especially touching when there's a "big" brother or sister accompanying mom and dad. One memorable occasion was the day of the bishop's visit; the bishop officiated, and the three-year-old big sister stood up there wearing the little mitre she had made in church school.
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Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world’s grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.
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Galilit
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# 16470
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Posted
Congratulations!
Yes, I've always thought that is one chapter of the BCP, 1662 that can be "reclaimed" as we feminists conceive it.
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She who does Her Son's will in all things can rely on me to do Hers.
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MrsBeaky
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# 17663
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Posted
They still do a version of it here in Kenya and they always praise the mother for her courage (!)and they also don't take lightly the safe delivery and gift of a child.
Perhaps the service's "falling out of fashion" is in some way linked to the battle in our culture to maintain the practice of gratitude as we tend to take so much for granted?
Many congratulations to you on the safe arrival of your little one.
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"It is better to be kind than right."
http://davidandlizacooke.wordpress.com
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Leorning Cniht
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# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
It must be the name. I can't imagine the same consternation to a "Thanksgiving of a Woman after Childbirth."
And, hearty congratulations.
Congratulations indeed to the Thuribles.
In my case, it's certainly the name and the reputation. Neither Mrs. Cniht nor I were very familiar with the darker recesses of the BCP when the Cnihtlets arrived, but we had both heard of "churching" and the association was very negative - as Albertus suggests, we certainly understood (from folk history or whatever) that there was an implication that a post-partum woman was unclean (and once you start there, meeting her at the door to sprinkle her with water before she's allowed in the church doesn't look so good).
Mrs. Cniht is less liturgical than me, so she might not have wanted a formal thanksgiving anyway, but I'd say this one was ripe for reclamation. But I think we have to obliterate the name completely. I'm not sure that the word "churching" can ever be fully rehabilitated.
[ 27. May 2013, 06:04: Message edited by: Leorning Cniht ]
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Pomona
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# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
It must be the name. I can't imagine the same consternation to a "Thanksgiving of a Woman after Childbirth."
And, hearty congratulations.
Congratulations indeed to the Thuribles.
In my case, it's certainly the name and the reputation. Neither Mrs. Cniht nor I were very familiar with the darker recesses of the BCP when the Cnihtlets arrived, but we had both heard of "churching" and the association was very negative - as Albertus suggests, we certainly understood (from folk history or whatever) that there was an implication that a post-partum woman was unclean (and once you start there, meeting her at the door to sprinkle her with water before she's allowed in the church doesn't look so good).
Mrs. Cniht is less liturgical than me, so she might not have wanted a formal thanksgiving anyway, but I'd say this one was ripe for reclamation. But I think we have to obliterate the name completely. I'm not sure that the word "churching" can ever be fully rehabilitated.
Agreed with all of this. And congrats to the Thuribles!
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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Pine Marten
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# 11068
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Posted
Thirded with all of this - and congratulations to all of you ![[Axe murder]](graemlins/lovedrops.gif)
Having had my fill of somewhat difficult deliveries with my 3 children I certainly don't take childbirth lightly!
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Keep love in your heart. A life without it is like a sunless garden when the flowers are dead. - Oscar Wilde
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Hezekiah
Apprentice
# 17157
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Posted
Congratulations Thurible! The Facebook pictures are great
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2 Kings 3:27
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ChaliceGirl
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# 13656
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Posted
Be sure to post about the baptism too when it comes time. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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Olaf
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# 11804
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Posted
Congratulations!
I'd imagine the issue is of it seeming a bit anti-feminist or not politically-correct. It needn't, but it depends on what one knows about the rite.
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roybart
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# 17357
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Posted
Congratulations and best wishes for your family, Thurible.
I was curious about this, from the order of service:
quote:
The woman,that cometh to give thanks, must offer accustomed offerings.
What are the accustomed oferings for this service?
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"The consolations of the imaginary are not imaginary consolations."
-- Roger Scruton
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PaulBC
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# 13712
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Posted
Best ![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif) ![[Angel]](graemlins/angel.gif) wishes Mr. & Mrs.T and T jr.
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"He has told you O mortal,what is good;and what does the Lord require of youbut to do justice and to love kindness ,and to walk humbly with your God."Micah 6:8
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ann:
Congratulations!
Which psalm did you have: "all men are liars" or "quiver full"?
Idle minds and all that.
Quiver, that's five isn't it?
And congratulations to Mr and Mrs T.
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Last ever sig ...
blog
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Comper's Child
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# 10580
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Posted
Congratulations and warmest wishes to you and all the thuribles.
I echo The Silent Acolyte's remark about it being the name that some find off-putting.
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Penny S
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# 14768
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by balaam:
quote:
Originally posted by Ann:
Congratulations!
Which psalm did you have: "all men are liars" or "quiver full"?
Idle minds and all that.
Quiver, that's five isn't it?
And congratulations to Mr and Mrs T.
Congratulations to the family!
And less happily, there was a more fringey church group in Dartford that thought seven. Clearly hunting arrows rather than warfare. This was the lot who prayed for a future quiverfull over a recently delivered mother who had been told by her doctor that under no circumstances should she become pregnant again as her life would be at risk. Which they knew.
[ 28. May 2013, 19:35: Message edited by: Penny S ]
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Thurible
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# 3206
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Posted
Many thanks for the congratulations. She's begun to sleep at night now so things are slightly less exhausting.
to answer the question about psalmody, we had "all men are liars". (Priest's, rather than wife's, choice!)
You must be right about it being about the cultural superstition that grew around the thanksgiving. I read a novel last week set during the War of the Roses and it was full of references to how even the husband shouldn't see the wife before she'd been churched.
Interestingly, given reports above, the person who was most vocal in their opposition to the idea is from Lancashire - and who had picked up, on the cultural grapevine, that it was about decontamination.
I think the verb "to church" does seem to have become almost a euphemism for "to cleanse" which is deeply sad. Perhaps if we add another boatbearer to the boatboys and boatgirl, we'll just refer to going "to give thanks".
Thurible
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"I've been baptised not lobotomised."
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churchgeek
Have candles, will pray
# 5557
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Posted
Congratulations!
I agree 100% with what Leorning Cniht said above. I can't imagine what other meaning calling it "churching" could possibly have. No other thanksgiving is called a "churching" - the term implies returning to church. Or, since it seems rather passive (the woman is churched), being received back into church. As a verb, "church" is also used to describe the "unchurched," which I think supports the negative association with this term. Why would you "church" a woman who is not among the "unchurched"? Would you ever "church" a churchgoing man?
quote:
Originally posted by Galilit:
Congratulations!
Yes, I've always thought that is one chapter of the BCP, 1662 that can be "reclaimed" as we feminists conceive it.
This is intriguing! I'd love to hear ideas about that.
I also want to second this question:
quote:
Originally posted by roybart:
I was curious about this, from the order of service:
quote:
The woman,that cometh to give thanks, must offer accustomed offerings.
What are the accustomed oferings for this service?
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I reserve the right to change my mind.
My article on the Virgin of Vladimir
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Metapelagius
Shipmate
# 9453
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Thurible:
I think the verb "to church" does seem to have become almost a euphemism for "to cleanse" which is deeply sad. Perhaps if we add another boatbearer to the boatboys and boatgirl, we'll just refer to going "to give thanks".
Thurible
Hmm. Noth of the border, in the form 'kirking', it looks to retain a broader sense, as
here. The purple hat is rather fetching ...
[ 30. May 2013, 21:14: Message edited by: Metapelagius ]
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Rec a archaw e nim naccer.
y rof a duv. dagnouet.
Am bo forth. y porth riet.
Crist ny buv e trist yth orsset.
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Thurible
Shipmate
# 3206
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Posted
The accustomed offerings are paid by standing order!
I do see the point about"to church" but I suppose, not having grown up as part of a culture where I was aware of any negative connotations, I've simply thought of it as shorthand for "to go to church to give thanks for safe delivery".
Thurible
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"I've been baptised not lobotomised."
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Charles Read
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# 3963
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Posted
Many congratulations to you all. Soon you will find children do sleep. Out teenage son sleeps all day...
Natalie Watson wrote a paper in Feminist Theology 14 (under the name of Natalie Knodel) which argued that the Churching Service should be reclaimed by feminists. A version of it is
here and there is a link to part 2 of the article at the end - where she makes the case for reclamation!
Many liturgy books tell you that the Thanksgiving Service was brought in to the CofE in the 1960s to replace Churching (due to people thinking Churching was about purity rites). This is not true - Thanksgiving Services arose as a tool to aid clergy responding to baptism requests from non-churchgoing families. Nothing to do with churching.
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"I am a sinful human being - why do you expect me to be consistent?" George Bebawi
"This is just unfocussed wittering." Ian McIntosh
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
it occurs to me now that there is nothing in the 1662 Churching service about thanksgiving for the arrival of the child- it's only for the mother's survival of labour. No doubt this reflects the high infant mortality rates of the period.
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Evangeline
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# 7002
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Posted
Perhaps also about the high maternal death rates too, prior to modern obstetrics about 1 in 3 births resulted in the death of the mother, hence thanksgiving for the survival of the mother.
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Albertus
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# 13356
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Posted
Indeed.
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
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Jemima the 9th
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# 15106
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Posted
Congratulations Thurible & Mrs Thurible!
They do all sleep in the end (though in our case in terms of sleeping through the night it was 3 years, 5 years and not yet...)
Someone cleverer than me please help - is there guidance as to when the service should be held, or is it just when mother and father feel up to it?
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Thurible
Shipmate
# 3206
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Read:
Natalie Watson wrote a paper in Feminist Theology 14 (under the name of Natalie Knodel) which argued that the Churching Service should be reclaimed by feminists. A version of it is
here and there is a link to part 2 of the article at the end - where she makes the case for reclamation!
Many liturgy books tell you that the Thanksgiving Service was brought in to the CofE in the 1960s to replace Churching (due to people thinking Churching was about purity rites). This is not true - Thanksgiving Services arose as a tool to aid clergy responding to baptism requests from non-churchgoing families. Nothing to do with churching.
Thank you for that article: very interesting.
As for Thanksgiving, a former boss used to give parishioners the choice of Thanksgiving or Baptism til he overheard two women in the post office discussing having had their babies done. "Did you have a wet christening or a dry one?" "Oh, a dry one - he makes you go to church a couple of times if you want a wet one!"
Thurible
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"I've been baptised not lobotomised."
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Galilit
Shipmate
# 16470
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Posted
I always imagined it was when you'd stopped bleeding - so 4 to 6 weeks.
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She who does Her Son's will in all things can rely on me to do Hers.
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Zacchaeus
Shipmate
# 14454
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Posted
The older ladies I knew who were churched, did it as soon as possible, as their mum's and grannnies wouldn't let them come to their houses until they had been 'done
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Jemima the 9th
Shipmate
# 15106
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Galilit:
I always imagined it was when you'd stopped bleeding - so 4 to 6 weeks.
That is what I thought I had read, and it's what had made me less than keen on the idea. Not so much "dirty childbirth / dirty sex" but more "dirty bleeding woman needing to be made clean before she can come back into the fold".
But Thurible mentions having the service much sooner after the birth, which made me wonder whether I'd got my timings wrong. A service soon after the birth would be much nicer, I think.
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Jemima the 9th
Shipmate
# 15106
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Posted
Thanks for the article, Charles Read. I will look forward to reading it in detail. I like the points made about the month of priviledge after childbirth - how lovely that would be!
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