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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Community churches
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seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
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Posted
Hi everyone! I'm new to the Ship.
I normally worship at an evangelical CofE parish that was a 5 min walk from my old flat. We've moved and it's now a 30 min trip on two trains to get to a Sunday service. I will still attend but I am looking for a local church to alternate Sundays with so I can build Christian friendships with people in my area. Unfortunately there is no Anglican parish of my type anywhere nearby.
We got a flyer stuck in our door from a local "Community Church." They have no denominational affiliation that I can find, but on their website link to several other community churches in the UK. The only hint is that they are run by a group of male elders, which points to some kind of Baptist/Church of Christ similarities perhaps.
So what is a community church? Is it just a non-denominational? Is there any history behind them in the UK as far as practices, origin, theology?
Posts: 1371 | From: London | Registered: May 2013
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Custard
Shipmate
# 5402
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Posted
The label "community church" isn't associated with any particular denomination, but they're generally congregationalist (i.e. independent) in ecclesiology.
I know some that are conservative evangelical; some that are pentecostal, some that are kind of open / touchy feely / mystical. Probably the easiest sign to look for on the website is which wider organisations they link to for accountability. Common ones are: Evangelical Alliance (evangelical, quite broad), FIEC (conservative evangelical), New Wine (charismatic / pentecostal).
If you want to find an Anglican church near you, try ACNY. But if you're in London, there should be plenty of evangelical-ish churches within fairly easy reach.
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
Watch I can find at least two other types. There are Metropolitan Community Churches and there are also ones linked to Pioneer.
In other words too wide a variety to go by the title. You need to look into their affliations and see who they name.
Jengie
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seekingsister
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# 17707
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Custard:
The label "community church" isn't associated with any particular denomination, but they're generally congregationalist (i.e. independent) in ecclesiology.
I know some that are conservative evangelical; some that are pentecostal, some that are kind of open / touchy feely / mystical. Probably the easiest sign to look for on the website is which wider organisations they link to for accountability. Common ones are: Evangelical Alliance (evangelical, quite broad), FIEC (conservative evangelical), New Wine (charismatic / pentecostal).
I've heard of New Wine and Evangelical Alliance, but FIEC is new to me. This church isn't a member of any of them so that's no clue either.
I strongly prefer to worship in an Anglican church, following that one from a mainline denomination. I've had bad experiences with independent evangelical churches whose theology and practices are obscure until you make more serious commitments.
You'd be surprised about London; I've moved from the London to Southwark Diocese and most of the evangelical parishes around here are teaching headship and complementarianism. I'm a charismatic/evo who supports women in leadership so that's a major disconnect.
[Edit: UBB]
[ 01. June 2013, 22:35: Message edited by: Zappa ]
Posts: 1371 | From: London | Registered: May 2013
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
In that case, I can imagine that you might be a bit wary of somewhere that appears, as you say, to be run by a group of male elders.
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Higgs Bosun
Shipmate
# 16582
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
I strongly prefer to worship in an Anglican church, following that one from a mainline denomination. I've had bad experiences with independent evangelical churches whose theology and practices are obscure until you make more serious commitments.
You'd be surprised about London; I've moved from the London to Southwark Diocese and most of the evangelical parishes around here are teaching headship and complementarianism. I'm a charismatic/evo who supports women in leadership so that's a major disconnect.
If you are of a charismatic/evo/Anglican inclination, then New Wine have a find-a-church page. Just put in your postcode, and you get a map of nearby churches which have some kind of New Wine connection. Not all are Anglican, but many are. It is not necessarily a recommendation, but it might be better than a flyer through the door. Last summer, John Cole, the leader of New Wine, came out strongly in favor of women bishops.
There are also Anglican churches of an 'open evangelical' position (e.g. like women in ministry) in Southwark diocese. The obvious one is Christchurch, New Malden, where the vicar is Stephen Kurt, who is Chair of Fulcrum. I obviously have no idea if this is near you.
I commend you wanting to find a local fellowship and wish you well in doing so.
Posts: 313 | From: Near the Tidal Thames | Registered: Aug 2011
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Ecclesiastical Flip-flop
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# 10745
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Posted
How deep is your removal into Southwark Diocese? It can be anywhere in London south of the Thames, or anywhere in rural east Surrey up to the borders of Sussex and Kent.
St. Mark's Kennington is within Southwark Diocese; I was acquainted with that Church many years ago, through a friend of mine who went there. It is/was a charismatic Anglican evangelical church and the main Sunday service would last literally two or three hours. Most Sundays, it included Communion and an ordered liturgy as a form of service was kept to a minimum.
But my above information is not necessarily up to date.
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
Around here 'Community Churches' are usually congregational in structure and generically Revivalist in theology. The slightly snarky joke is that they either "Baptist with a three mega-ton Praise Band" or "Methodist with a Baptismal Tank"!
Community Churches often have oversight, doctrinal, or historical issues that make it difficult to line up with anything other than a loose federation of Independent congregations. The better Federations -such as the FIEC - try and exercise some sort of oversight/quality control on the local churches, but this is limited by their wllingness to cooperate. I would imagine that even if one could contemplate joining such a church (I could not) you have to visit several times and kick the tires pretty thoroughly before even thinking about making a commitment.
I would suggest you beat the bushes a bit for something suitable in the C of E locally.
PD
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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PD:
Around here 'Community Churches' are usually congregational in structure and generically Revivalist in theology. The slightly snarky joke is that they either "Baptist with a three mega-ton Praise Band" or "Methodist with a Baptismal Tank"!
You forgot the "Once were Brethren but now have a Minister" classification!
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Higgs Bosun
Shipmate
# 16582
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop:
How deep is your removal into Southwark Diocese? It can be anywhere in London south of the Thames, or anywhere in rural east Surrey up to the borders of Sussex and Kent.
St. Mark's Kennington is within Southwark Diocese; I was acquainted with that Church many years ago, through a friend of mine who went there. It is/was a charismatic Anglican evangelical church and the main Sunday service would last literally two or three hours. Most Sundays, it included Communion and an ordered liturgy as a form of service was kept to a minimum.
But my above information is not necessarily up to date.
The recent rumours I have heard are that, sadly, St Mark's is not the flagship charismatic Anglican church it once was. However, it may be on the up.
Posts: 313 | From: Near the Tidal Thames | Registered: Aug 2011
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
In the US, "Community Church" can mean just about anything from independent non-denom to an affiliation with any free-church denomination you might care to name.
It's become very fashionable lately for Southern Baptist congregations to rename themselves. What was formerly Ebenezer Baptist Church might now be called New Life Fellowship, apparently in a bid to sound less old-fashioned and more with-it.
I am naturally pretty suspicious of any church that attempts to hide its denominational or associational affiliation. X Community Church is fine if it really is a non-denominational congregation, but if it's a UCC or SBC church, then I start to wonder why they want to hide that.
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
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seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Higgs Bosun:
If you are of a charismatic/evo/Anglican inclination, then New Wine have a find-a-church page. Just put in your postcode, and you get a map of nearby churches which have some kind of New Wine connection. Not all are Anglican, but many are. It is not necessarily a recommendation, but it might be better than a flyer through the door. Last summer, John Cole, the leader of New Wine, came out strongly in favor of women bishops.
There are also Anglican churches of an 'open evangelical' position (e.g. like women in ministry) in Southwark diocese. The obvious one is Christchurch, New Malden, where the vicar is Stephen Kurt, who is Chair of Fulcrum. I obviously have no idea if this is near you.
I commend you wanting to find a local fellowship and wish you well in doing so.
I did the New Wine search even before we moved actually. The nearest one is a Vineyard Church. I know their history as far as the charismatic movement but very little about how that denomination functions in the UK. The nearest CofE New Wine parish is miles away so doesn't resolve the desire for a local community. The only reason I was considering the "community church" is that it's very close by and obviously reaching out to our neighbourhood, so I figured a good number of people in the area probably attend.
Posts: 1371 | From: London | Registered: May 2013
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
I suggest you have a look at the Baptist churches in your locality, I think you will find a better hit rate of evangelical charismatic friendly churches in there than other main stream denominations.
I would check out websites and see how they sound first.
Jengie
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seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
I am naturally pretty suspicious of any church that attempts to hide its denominational or associational affiliation. X Community Church is fine if it really is a non-denominational congregation, but if it's a UCC or SBC church, then I start to wonder why they want to hide that.
Yes that's exactly my position as well. I know the obvious answer is to just turn up and see what they are up to, but that means a Sunday away from a church I know and love for one that is a completely unknown quantity.
Having done some more research I am positive this is a Church of Christ/Christian Church group, based on the other churches that they work with. Not my style.
For the Brits around - is there any history of Church of Christ in the UK? Any reason why churches from that tradition would be obscure about their origins?
Posts: 1371 | From: London | Registered: May 2013
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John Holding
Coffee and Cognac
# 158
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Posted
Not that it helps you out in ENgland, but our local community church is in fact part of the anti-gay breakaway from the Anglican Church of Canada. I grant everyone, this is more than slightly odd -- the other two outposts of this group in the diocese have more conventional "Anglican" names.
John
Posts: 5929 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: May 2001
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
Yes there is Churches of Christ around, you might have to go far to find one with that in the title, but irc are a few in a denomination around; sorry can't recall what the name is. However the vast majority of them joined the URC in 1981 and as the URC also has the nearest British equivalent to the United Churches of Christ, they tend not to be what I think you expect.
Now you have just picked yourself off the floor, no I am not making this up; Wiki-pedia mentions it and the BBC. If you want to avoid one they normally take the form of "Christ Church <placename> URC". The ones named after "St Andrew <placename> URC" or other saint tend to be former Presbyterians (i.e. PCUSA equivalents) and the others tend to be former Congregationalists (i.e. United Church of Christ equivalents).
Before I forget please note the Church of Christ <placename> is a fairly recent American import and maybe UCC breakaway related rather than Churches of Christ but has cultish aspects.
Jengie
[ 31. May 2013, 20:56: Message edited by: Jengie Jon ]
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Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
The group I am warning about I believe include this group.
Jengie
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Qoheleth.
Semi-Sagacious One
# 9265
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Posted
Our local Community Church/es claim fellowship with 'Salt & Light Ministries', are friendly and mildly charo/evo.
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
You'd be surprised about London; I've moved from the London to Southwark Diocese and most of the evangelical parishes around here are teaching headship and complementarianism.
Maybe you could find a nice, friendly, low-key Anglican church and help it to get just a little bit more vigorous and evangelical. Or doesn't low-key Anglicanism exist in London?? Does everything down there have to have knobs on?
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Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
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Posted
Whenever I see the term "non denominational" I read "Baptist" in general theology. True, some may not, but my own personal experience says otherwise (I admit I have not gone to every non denominational church).
Posts: 2193 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
I did the New Wine search even before we moved actually. The nearest one is a Vineyard Church. I know their history as far as the charismatic movement but very little about how that denomination functions in the UK.
I was just going to suggest you go along to a Vineyard church service and see what you think! And, in case you haven't found it already, have a look at the Vineyard Churches UK webpage and see what you think of the statements of belief, the explanations of how Vineyard churches operate etc.
Declaration of interest - I am a member of a Vineyard church. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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Laurelin
Shipmate
# 17211
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Posted
*puts hand up*. I, too, am an mildly charismatic/evo Anglican who supprts women in leadership. The Community Church near me is a New Frontiers one. They definitely have an all-male eldership, given their theology.
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Jon in the Nati
Shipmate
# 15849
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Posted
quote:
Whenever I see the term "non denominational" I read "Baptist" in general theology.
And most of the time you'll be right, although there is a divide among such churches according to whether and to what degree they are charismatic. More traditionally Baptist congregations will generally eschew charismaticism.
I must confess that I like labels. Labels tell you things and save you time. When people see "Anglican/Episcopal" on the signboard of my church, they know mostly what that means. Just down the street is Central Community Church; now, I know what they are all about, because I know they used to be Central Baptist Church. But if someone new to town sees that, how the heck are they to know anything about it? I don't think it is really helpful to hide the ball from people, and like Fr Weber I am a bit suspicious of it all.
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
Our local "Community Church" is Reformed Church of America - basically Dutch Reformed. However, it is populated by the non-episcopalian element of the Mac-ocracy. Mainly the ones who have fallen out with the local PCUSA church for being too liberal, but won't join the OPA because it is too conservative! It is your remembers being Reformed once, basic hymn sandwich sort of church.
PD
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
Whenever I see the term "non denominational" I read "Baptist" in general theology. True, some may not, but my own personal experience says otherwise (I admit I have not gone to every non denominational church).
Firstly "Baptist in Theology" ![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
I am not being rude about Baptist theologians, there are many very good ones but knowing the depth, breadth and height of Baptist Theology is almost as difficult as knowing the dimenions of the Grace of God. In other words it tells you nowt to refer to something as a Baptist theology. They can stretch from people who are ultra conservative, through people whose theology is inspired by the Orthodox tradition to finally liberals who make Anglican liberals look conservative.
They are people of integrity and but they are also people of independent thought. If you do not believe me, go and find Hatless posts here, then recall he is a Baptist minister.
What Baptist share is an ecclesiology and the fact they do not practice paedobaptism. They might well share various pious practices as well, such as restrained drinking, hymn singing, non-gambling and in the UK a commitment to radical politics. In other words Baptist is about orthopraxis not orthodoxy.
That said in the UK they tend to be more conservative than other historical denominations. That is not saying much in American terms.
Jengie
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
Knowing the depth, breadth and height of Baptist Theology is almost as difficult as knowing the dimenions of the Grace of God.
Or harder, in fact ...
That's a very good post Jengie but I think you're being a bit generous. While there are indeed some wonderful Baptist theologians and thinkers, IME the great majority of "ordinary" ministers and church members are pretty conservative, theologically speaking.
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
IME the great majority of "ordinary" ministers and church members are pretty conservative, theologically speaking.
Perhaps becoming less so?
To go back to the OP - there are a good number of charismatic - evangelical baptist churches around, possibly a much higher % of the whole than would be said of the same in anglican circles.
Baptist churches are way more likely to affirm women's ministry than other groups too and tbh you'll find pretty much the same songs and the same teachings in a charis - evo baptist church. as you would in a charis - evo Anglican one. The main differences are that baptist don't practice infant baptism but thanksgiving isn't vastly different just without the water and governance is through the church meeting.
Yes there are some decent baptist theologians around but many of them are those who accept baptist approaches to the church, rather than being baptist. FF Bruce is possibly one of the best but he was (I think) brethren in his church affiliation. There are significant differences between baptists in the US and here (not least attitude towards women and some (residual) concerns on race issues) so it's not easy to make assumptions.
You also have soem independent baptiust churches which can range from ultra reformed (usually called "Grace" baptist churches) to out and out charismatic (those linked to new Frontiers).
[Edit: UBB]
[ 01. June 2013, 22:40: Message edited by: Zappa ]
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
I am sorry FF Bruce was Brethren not Baptist! After all Manchester Baptists tend not to be conservative.
Jengie
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seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
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Posted
Just wanted to say the input from people posting here is fantastic! I am learning so much about the various denominations. Thanks guys ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
I'm so surprised to learn that CofC in the UK largely got subsumed into URC, which I though was just the English version of Presbyterianism.
Posts: 1371 | From: London | Registered: May 2013
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
Baptist churches are way more likely to affirm women's ministry than other groups too.
Certainly more than some (not all!) New Church groups (which is what I think you had in mind) but not less than mainline Methodists and URC. Indeed the URC are better at affirming women leaders than BUGB.
quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
I'm so surprised to learn that CofC in the UK largely got subsumed into URC, which I though was just the English version of Presbyterianism.
No, it includes CofC, Presbyterianism and Congregationalism - though not all of any of them!
And URC in Scotland is almost 100% ex-Congregationalist AFAIK.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Does everything down there have to have knobs on?
Nah, you're thinking of Chichester. ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
(apologies, I couldn't resist)
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
Well when we first went North of the Border it was for the CofC but the Scottish Congregationalists who are a different sort from the English Congregationalists*, do out number them.
Jengie
*Basically Presbyterians = Scots & Irish Presbyterians, plus some from Northumbria and Cumbria (often extreme Presbyterians); English Congregationalists= English Presbyterians (at least if you are outside Cumbria and Northumbria) and Congregationalists; Scots Congregationalists were Scots Congregationalists.
Just to confuse matters, Welsh Presbyterians are actually Calvinist Methodists.
[ 01. June 2013, 15:31: Message edited by: Jengie Jon ]
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
The Baptists around here are mainly of the Southern variety and pretty conservative, so I do not associate Baptist with liberal. There is a 'General' Baptist in one of the outlying areas which may be a little more liberal, but it hard to tell from a funeral service.
Just to confuse things further, the Calvinistic Methodists, Countess of Huntington Connection and the Free Church of England share a common origin. They have tended to shift towards different polities - the Welsh towards a Presbyterianism; the Connexion towards Congregation, and the Free C towards Episcopacy. All three originally accepted a Calvinist take on the 39 Articles as their original confessional stance.
PD
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
I'm not sure if there are any soi-disant 'Community Churches' in this fair town, but the monthly Medway Towns Prayer Guide has such an enormous list of different denominations and groups (making the Week of Prayer for Christian Unity something of a non-starter IMNSHO), that I probably wouldn't recognise one if it was offered to me on a plate with a parsley garnish....
All due respects, but ISTM that, when all else fails, and these various groupings/bodies/sects disappear/transmute/join/break/fissiparate, it's the good ol' C of E that's left to deal with the local 'community' (whatever that may mean) aka the parish........
.....'scuse me whilst I help Father with yet another enquiry for home Communion/hospital visit/baptism/funeral/marriage.......
Ian J.
Ian J.
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Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
Dear Bishops Finger
If only it was so here!
The CofE went a decade ago, the Methodist about five years, the Jesus Army do sterling work, Crowded House are also around and we are going some way towards keeping a mainstream presence but we are not really a local church
In other words no you are not.
Jengie
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
Some say evangelical theology is often worked out on the ground rather than in seminaries. If so, some congregational evangelical congregations will have benefited in the past from producing their own highly visible as well as deeply spiritual, powerful women, women who seemed destined to take to the pulpit. Some of these women might actually have started these churches themselves, or have had a long history with a particular congregation.
I don't know how most of these churches pick their leaders, but the mainstream church model, whereby an unknown minister is brought in from outside, seems to be unsuited to this kind of experiential attitude to church leadership, and it's probably especially unsuited to getting women into church leadership in places where there was no experience of strong female leaders before.
Are British evangelical women founding churches? When they get into positions of leadership in the church are they growing lively congregations with multiple ministries? As a Methodist I like women ministers because they tend to be excellent at the pastoral side of things, which is very important when you have an ageing or significantly female membership. But the evangelical charismatic churches seem to require a different skill set. Are the women who want to be leaders acquiring those skills? Are they preparing themselves to lead large and growing churches? If they insist that these things don't matter then they're hardly going to get the chance to challenge the 'macho' theology of large and growing evangelical churches, regardless of 'headship' issues, because they simply don't share the same goals and visions of those churches. They won't be hired.
[ 01. June 2013, 21:09: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Custard
Shipmate
# 5402
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Posted
Ah - if you're in Southwark, I can understand your problem. There are some churches in the diocese that might fit - All Saints Peckham, or one of the HTB family (St Mark's Battersea Rise, St Paul's Brixton, St Peter's Battersea are all in Southwark Diocese - there may well be others).
Otherwise I guess you may have to compromise on something. Try the Vineyard place - some Vineyard churches are pretty close to New Wine Anglicanism. Maybe try some of the places that are technically complementarian and see if they do it in a way that doesn't offend you - there are some that wear it very lightly. Visit places and see if you can find somewhere that fits.
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Posts: 4523 | From: Snot's Place | Registered: Jan 2004
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
Having done some more research I am positive this is a Church of Christ/Christian Church group, based on the other churches that they work with. Not my style.
Would that be the "Church of Christ" near New Cross?
If it is then there is more than one women-friendly mildly-charismatic evangelical Anglican church near you. St Peter's, Brockley, and both St Nicholas's and St John's in Deptford have all had women priests. All within a short walk of New Cross. There may be others.
St Nick's is the old parish church on Deptford Green near the river, St Peter's is on Wickham Road about half a mile south of New Cross Gate station. St John's is technically in Deptford but its just about the southernmost building in Deptford on the main road into Lewisham and most people who live round thereprobably think of themselves as in Lewisham.
quote:
Originally posted by Custard:
Ah - if you're in Southwark, I can understand your problem. There are some churches in the diocese that might fit - All Saints Peckham, or one of the HTB family (St Mark's Battersea Rise, St Paul's Brixton, St Peter's Battersea are all in Southwark Diocese - there may well be others).
There certainly are. The prevailing churchmanship is liberal catholic, but there is definitely a significant minority of evangelical parishes, of all sorts of flavours conservative/open/charismatic/looney/sensible. There is also a significant minority of hardline anti-women anglo-catholics.
At a rough guess I'd say the majority of the parishes in our part of the diocese would be happy with women priests, and the majority of those parishes would be evangelical or evangelical/charismatic, as what opposition to women priests remains in the area is mostly from the AC side.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
At a rough guess I'd say the majority of the parishes in our part of the diocese would be happy with women priests, and the majority of those parishes would be evangelical or evangelical/charismatic, as what opposition to women priests remains in the area is mostly from the AC side.
Which is an interesting contrast to the part of the Southwark diocese where I used to work, where the anti-women-priest parishes were all evangelical and the catholic ones were in favour. I think it is still like that.
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Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
Yes, I think conservative-evangelical opposition seems more common in SW London than SE, and also further out in the suburbs. My local knowledge is quite a limited area!
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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