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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Organ playing at St Peter's Rome: the 50th Anniversary of Death of Blessed John XXIII
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Meaculpa
Shipmate
# 11821
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Posted
The general standard of music and its integration into the Papal liturgies at the Basilica have been commented on on this board before. But I do not recall whether the organ playing specifically has been a topic. One might expect that the organ music for those liturgies, broadcast and streamed throughout the world, would be of a very high order.
Today I happened to watch the (very moving) ceremony where the Holy Father first prayed at Blessed John XXIII's tomb on this the 50th Anniversary of his death, then greeted pilgrims from Bergamo and finally gave an address. The first two - quite lengthy - elements were accompanied by the most atrocious organ playing.
I am an amateur organist, and know my limitations, so perhaps I can judge: whoever was playing was about my level or worse, and I would never dream of playing for a Papal liturgy! the number of pedal errors, abrupt halts, awkward and evident stop changes, etc... quite incredible. You can listen to it (as well as the rather marvelous other elements of the celebration) half-way down the June 3 post on
http://whispersintheloggia.blogspot.ca/
Here's the question - what is the process for selecting organists at St Peter's. Are they related in any way to the Sistine Choir (which itself has its ups and downs). Is there a titular organist? How could such an amateur hour have eventuated today? Am I being too critical? Has anyone noticed the organ playing, for good or ill, before now?
Posts: 363 | From: York, ON | Registered: Sep 2006
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NatDogg
Shipmate
# 14347
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Posted
Well, I listened to it. Oh, the horror. Make it stop, make it stop now. . . At 1:32, what the hell happened? I too am a VERY amateur organist (I took lessons in college), so I will leave the whole thing to our more accomplished and qualified shipmates to comment.
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
Well, at least s/he knew where the 'loud' button was.
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Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by NatDogg:
Well, I listened to it. Oh, the horror. Make it stop, make it stop now. . . At 1:32, what the hell happened? I too am a VERY amateur organist (I took lessons in college), so I will leave the whole thing to our more accomplished and qualified shipmates to comment.
I'm not more qualified nor accomplished, but I'm amazed that the place that could be expected to have the best musicians has such insanely rotten playing!
All I can think of is that maybe the improvisation wasn't expected to be needed, and the otherwise fine organist on duty is a terrible improviser and was dealing with nerves. (Or alcohol? I had the thought, but of course there's no way to know now.) Or some last-second illness put this hapless organist on the bench.
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
I've heard better organ accompaniment to a silent film!
What entertained me was the speed of His Holiness' gait, and the obvious trouble his retinue was having keeping up with him! Maybe he was trying to get away from the horrible din of the organ?
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
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New Yorker
Shipmate
# 9898
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Posted
Paging the Ordinariate: send some of that patrimony right over.
Note to Francis: not my place to advise you, but start converting some Lutheran musicians as well.
Posts: 3193 | From: New York City | Registered: Jul 2005
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
The choir of the Sistine is equally shocking.
As for approaching the Ordinariate, not necessary.
There are TWO suitably qualified and very gifted organists/ choir directors who spring to mind from the UK, both RC:
1. James O'Donnell, currently Organist & Master of the Choristers at Westminster Abbey.
2. Martin Baker, Master of Music at Westminster Cathedral.
There are other RC musicians who could do a good job: Patrick Russill, Andrew Carwood, etc. And there are many very gifted RC musicians in the USA.
The Vatican has lousy music because that's the way they like it.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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Meaculpa
Shipmate
# 11821
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Posted
L'organist, presuming your last sentence was not meant simply to be arch or ironic, what do you mean when you write that the "lousy music" is the way the Vatican likes it? Is it that they don't want fine music or a focus on music to overshadow the liturgy itself? or were you suggesting no one in authority cares about music so they take what they get? or?
[ 05. June 2013, 17:04: Message edited by: Meaculpa ]
Posts: 363 | From: York, ON | Registered: Sep 2006
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Pearl B4 Swine
Ship's Oyster-Shucker
# 11451
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Posted
I'm pretty sure s/he was playing "The Guantanamo Suite", sub-titled Cruel and Unusual Punishment.
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Oinkster
"I do a good job and I know how to do this stuff" D. Trump (speaking of the POTUS job)
Posts: 3622 | From: The Keystone State | Registered: May 2006
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Devils Advocate
Shipmate
# 16484
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Posted
I didn't hear the organ at the service of which you speak, I have however a few recordings of choral music from various mainland european cathedrals ( Mainly Spanish) and the singing of the boys is odd to english ears not to say quite painful to listen to. I can only assume that they don't have the same sort of training as the boys in UK Cathedrals or perhaps that is the sort of sound they like.
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Posts: 97 | From: Lincs | Registered: Jun 2011
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sebby
Shipmate
# 15147
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Posted
The standard of Vatican music was very much to the fore in the initial months of the reign of Benedict XVI. It was no secret that he found it atrocious, and had the choir master of the Sistine chapel sacked.
Vatican music - including organ music - is notoriously bad. This includes my experiences in St Peter's for the solemnity of the Epiphany and the ordination of bishops, and in the Sistine Chapel and also when in a privileged postion in St Paul Outside the Walls
Leaving Westminister Abbey after the adapted evensong for the papal visit, Bishop Venner heard the pope say 'we need more of that !' to his entourage.
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sebhyatt
Posts: 1340 | From: yorks | Registered: Sep 2009
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Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513
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Posted
Who was the choirmaster whom Benedict sacked? Was it Bartolucci, whom he proceeded to make a cardinal? My understanding is that he thought highly of Bartolucci.
One of the Vatican organists as of a few years ago, at least, is an American, presumably accomplished. Can't remember his name.
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Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
The choir of the Sistine is equally shocking.
As for approaching the Ordinariate, not necessary.
There are TWO suitably qualified and very gifted organists/ choir directors who spring to mind from the UK, both RC:
1. James O'Donnell, currently Organist & Master of the Choristers at Westminster Abbey.
2. Martin Baker, Master of Music at Westminster Cathedral.
I'd certainly try to get one of them if I had anything to do with it. But do they speak Italian? No doubt they could learn well enough in a few months if the job paid well enough to attract them. They probably do not earn nearly what they are worth in their present positions.
Can't speak from personal experience, never yet having been to Rome, but in the late 1960s one of my teachers said that the organ in St. Peter's Basilica doesn't fill the building well at all. Her exact words were, "you can't hear it." In the late 19th century, Aristide Cavaille-Coll had hopes of building an organ there. What a shame he was never allowed to go through with his plans. For this broadcast the organ was clearly very closely miked. Where are the acoustics? It sounds even worse than it must have done for most in the building.
[ 16. June 2013, 04:35: Message edited by: Alogon ]
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CL
Shipmate
# 16145
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alogon:
Who was the choirmaster whom Benedict sacked? Was it Bartolucci, whom he proceeded to make a cardinal? My understanding is that he thought highly of Bartolucci.
One of the Vatican organists as of a few years ago, at least, is an American, presumably accomplished. Can't remember his name.
It was John Paul II who sacked Bartolucci at the instigation of others. Benedict made him a cardinal precisely to send a message to those others.
[ 16. June 2013, 12:27: Message edited by: CL ]
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"Even if Catholics faithful to Tradition are reduced to a handful, they are the ones who are the true Church of Jesus Christ." - Athanasius of Alexandria
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John Holding
Coffee and Cognac
# 158
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Posted
Please lets remember that St. Peter's -- like most of the largest, grandest pre-reformation chuches, wan never intended to be filled with music that one could hear and understand. Attitudes to public worship on grand occasions have changed as society has changed, and the expectation that everyone in a building would be able to hear an organ or choir clearly, much less understand the words being sung, is relatively new. As is the reality that the whole building would be used for a single service at a single time, and that every place in it would be occupied.
The organ and choir (however good or bad) are trying to do something the bulding simply won't accommodate.
John
Posts: 5929 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: May 2001
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by John Holding:
Please lets remember that St. Peter's -- like most of the largest, grandest pre-reformation chuches, wan never intended to be filled with music that one could hear and understand. Attitudes to public worship on grand occasions have changed as society has changed, and the expectation that everyone in a building would be able to hear an organ or choir clearly, much less understand the words being sung, is relatively new. As is the reality that the whole building would be used for a single service at a single time, and that every place in it would be occupied.
The organ and choir (however good or bad) are trying to do something the bulding simply won't accommodate.
John
Maybe, but presumably the microphones for a broadcast service would be placed to the best advantage of the music. Surely in the past you speak of, there was no excuse for the music not being of a good quality for those who could hear it?
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John Holding
Coffee and Cognac
# 158
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Posted
My point was that the acoustics are dreadful, and that using (multiple) mikes isn't going to help in a space that vast, if you are looking for clear sound and intelligible words. I was not commenting on whether the organ and choir were good or bad -- I've never listened to them so I can't offer an opinion.
I doubt that the choir of Westminster Cathedral, for example, would sound significantly better than the one in place, if it were standing wherever the choir stands in St. Peter's and singing into a battery of mikes, while accompanied by the best organ in the world positioned wherever the organ(s) is/are in that building -- also miked, I assume -- which is probably half a kilometre away from the choir.
John
Posts: 5929 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: May 2001
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HenryT
Canadian Anglican
# 3722
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Posted
In very large spaces, the organist and the choir may be hearing things entirely different from what the microphones are picking up. There's a fairly modest sized church in Ottawa with a nearly three second resonance time. Also hearing delayed sound can make it very hard to play or sing well.
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Posts: 7231 | From: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada | Registered: Dec 2002
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Edgeman
Shipmate
# 12867
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by sebby:
The standard of Vatican music was very much to the fore in the initial months of the reign of Benedict XVI. It was no secret that he found it atrocious, and had the choir master of the Sistine chapel sacked.
Vatican music - including organ music - is notoriously bad. This includes my experiences in St Peter's for the solemnity of the Epiphany and the ordination of bishops, and in the Sistine Chapel and also when in a privileged postion in St Paul Outside the Walls
Leaving Westminister Abbey after the adapted evensong for the papal visit, Bishop Venner heard the pope say 'we need more of that !' to his entourage.
I don't know, papal music has certainly improved in recent years. Even the Sistine Screamers are a little closer to staying on pitch and in the right key. Something like This or This (Ok, that second one is seriously way too slow, but it still sounds nicer compared to how they sounded in years past) would have been unthinkable 5 or so years ago.
[ 17. June 2013, 07:06: Message edited by: Edgeman ]
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Laurence
Shipmate
# 9135
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Edgeman:
Even the Sistine Screamers are a little closer to staying on pitch and in the right key. Something like This or This (Ok, that second one is seriously way too slow, but it still sounds nicer compared to how they sounded in years past) would have been unthinkable 5 or so years ago.
It's not just the speed of the Victoria Popule Meus- that's at least defensible as an artistic decision in that acoustic and for the solemnity of Good Friday.
What gets my goat is the way that they take about three tries to get the first note right. And then every chord change has a moment of democratic debate before settling on something approaching the actual pitch.
The sad thing is that underneath all the stuff which is just bad singing, there is a genuine unique Roman style of doing polyphony- vibrant Italianate vowels, rhythmic freedom, passionate crescendos, chest-voice singing from the boys on the alto line rather than countertenors, even the famous/notorious Vatican octave "scoop" which is apparently supposed to give extra resonance to the sound in St Peters, and can be heard on the recordings from c.1902 with Moreschi.
But most of this interesting tradition is just swamped by stuff which is just plain mistakes and inadequate choral training. And I fear that anyone who tries to correct the mistakes will be accused of trying to dilute the tradition. What is needed is a musical Pope with a strong idea of the best liturgical tradition... hang on a minute, hasn't that idea been tried?! ![[Paranoid]](graemlins/paranoid.gif)
Posts: 648 | From: Lincolnshire | Registered: Feb 2005
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Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by CL:
quote:
Originally posted by Alogon:
Who was the choirmaster whom Benedict sacked? Was it Bartolucci, whom he proceeded to make a cardinal? My understanding is that he thought highly of Bartolucci.
It was John Paul II who sacked Bartolucci at the instigation of others. Benedict made him a cardinal precisely to send a message to those others.
So I thought. Thank you for clarifying. Yes, I recall now that Liberti was their choirmaster by the time of John Paul II's funeral etc.
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Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.
Posts: 7808 | From: West Chester PA | Registered: Feb 2004
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Edgeman:
Something like This or This (Ok, that second one is seriously way too slow, but it still sounds nicer compared to how they sounded in years past).
Good Lord! I'd hate to have heard them five years ago. They're unlistenable now!
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004
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ORGANMEISTER
Shipmate
# 6621
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Posted
What kind of instrument is used when the Mass is celebrated in the piazza?
Posts: 3162 | From: Somerset, PA - USA | Registered: May 2004
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
I think that you have to be in Venice to get good church music in Italy! The Sistine Screamers have been indfferent to bad for years, even allowing for the difference of technique between England (head voice; little vibrato) and the basically bel canto technique used in Rome. I often wonder if the Sistine Screamers were as bad in Palewstrina's day as they are now!
PD
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Posts: 4431 | From: Between a Rock and a Hard Place | Registered: Mar 2007
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
If only it were bel canto--it's more accurately described as "can belto".
This article by Mauro Uberti sheds a little bit of light on what church choirs sounded like in the late 16th century.
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
If only it were bel canto--it's more accurately described as "can belto".
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
Very good. I will read the article when I get a minute.
It occurs to me that St Peter's Basilica may well have the same problem as St paul's Cathedral - most of the sound produced buggers off up the dome and does not come out again!
PD
[ 02. July 2013, 19:36: Message edited by: PD ]
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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
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Posted
Perhaps if they lined the nave with Gregorian-chanting monks in unison, this wouldn't be a problem. Either that, or congregational singing at the mass, and skip the choir altogether.
Posts: 8953 | From: Ad Midwestem | Registered: Sep 2006
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