Ship of Fools: Devotion styles that are, er... interesting

Thread: Devotion styles that are, er... interesting Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :

This week, the Feast of Saint Anthony (of Padua) will be upon us, and it's quite a big thing here in Brazil. St. Anthony is the patron saint for lost keys of course, but also for single people yearning for marriage.

Out of interest, I bought a magazine that seems to be officially endorsed by the Catholic Church, and it gave the following advice (loosely paraphrasing from memory):

"If you want a boyfriend, buy a small statue of St. Anthony, put him upside-down in a cup of water, and say to him: 'I'm only going to let you out of here when I have a boyfriend'."

Since I'm not Catholic, I asked a couple of people around here, and they told me that people really do this thing. Some women also tie him up to a tree and put a flame to his head every day, until their wish of a boyfriend is fulfilled.

Now that's what I call devotion, mob style!

Do you have other examples of 'interesting' forms of devotion?

Posted by Forthview (# 12376) on :

I'm sure that this would have simply been reporting on popular traditions of which there are many concerning St Anthony of Padua or St Anthony of Lisbon, as he is also known. You should subscribe to one of the many different language editions of the Messaggero di Sant'Antonio ($23 per annum in South America)
I used to love the blessing of the lilies on St Anthony's day,but that was 50 years ago.
Interesting as these popular devotions may be they will not be found in any Catholic catechism.

Posted by PD (# 12436) on :

St Joseph gets buried up side down in the garden when some folks wish to sell a house. Apparently some sort of a prayer goes with it.

PD

Posted by Fr Weber (# 13472) on :

quote:
Originally posted by PD:
St Joseph gets buried up side down in the garden when some folks wish to sell a house. Apparently some sort of a prayer goes with it.

I think it's something along the lines of "If you ever want to see your wife and kid again, you'll help me sell my house. Amen."

Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :

Or maybe it has something to do with him being a carpenter?

Posted by Trisagion (# 5235) on :

quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
...I bought a magazine that seems to be officially endorsed by the Catholic Church...

How so?

Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :

I don't know, there are a lot of magazines being sold here that have images of padre Marcelo and pieces that seem to have been written by other padres. I found the information about St. Anthony in one of these. I never know for certain in which way these magazines are connected with the Church.

Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :

I've heard of the St. Joseph spell, but not the other one.

ISTM that if the saint in question cares enough about their reputation to worry about the disposition of a statue, then they're apt to be at least a little angry. And why would you want to anger someone you want to help you???

It's kind of like spells to control deities, spirits, demons, what have you: you're going to a being that you believe to be much more powerful than you, and trying to force them to do your bidding. Seems unwise.

Why not ask politely, offer a gift in an area that's important to them (like working with Habitat for Humanity, if you're approaching Joseph for a house), amend your behavior, etc.?

When actor Danny Thomas was young, he asked St. Jude to help him with his career, and promised that he'd build a hospital if he were helped. His career got going, and he started St. Jude's hospital. I have no idea if Jude was really involved, but Danny kept his promise.

Posted by Ceremoniar (# 13596) on :

quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
Out of interest, I bought a magazine that seems to be officially endorsed by the Catholic Church

Unlikely.

Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :

Does the RCC still grant nihil obstat and imprimatur publishing approval?

Posted by Trisagion (# 5235) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Does the RCC still grant nihil obstat and imprimatur publishing approval?

Yes, it sure does. But each of these has a narrow technical meaning. The nihil obstat is a certification that there is nothing in the certified publication contrary to the Church's teachings on faith and morals. It is not an indication that the opinions in the book are shared by he censor. An imprimatur is a declaration that a book may be published - clerics and members of religious institutes are required to obtain the permission of their superior before publishing work related to faith and morals. Again it is not an endorsement of a work, rather it is a statement of what it is not: i.e. a work containing statements or advancing opinions contrary to the Church's teachings on faith and morals.

Posted by Thurible (# 3206) on :

I've a memory of girls putting St Anthony under their pillow in order to find a beau. (To be clear, I don't remember watching them do it, as that would negate the point, rather.)

Thurible

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

Forty years or so ago, there was a comedy series on the BBC called Me Mammy set in the Irish community of North London. In one episode, Mammy, who is a formidable, superstitious and possessive woman who won't let her adult son out of her clutches, angrily shoves the number of plaster statues that fill her house, in the cupboard, 'Since you haven't done what I asked you to, you're all staying here until you do'.

That though was comedy. It was meant even then, to represent the sort of Catholicism that Pope, priests and Prods agree that they don't approve of.

Posted by Anglican_Brat (# 12349) on :

http://www.beliefnet.com/Faiths/Catholic/2006/11/Saints-Who-Find-You-Parking-Spaces.aspx#

"Little Flower, Little Flower, send me some of your parking power." [Ultra confused]

Posted by dj_ordinaire (# 4643) on :

In Ireland, it is still common to put a statue of the Holy Infant of Prague on display the night before an event in order to guarantee good weather (this being one reason I don't hold with devotion to the Holy Infant, as his level of success appears rather limited...)

Posted by Anglican_Brat (# 12349) on :

Chinese restaurants would typically put a statue of the Chinese God of wealth in order to generate prosperity.

One Chinese restaurant I went to, instead of the God of Wealth, placed a Crucifix.

Now I assume that the owner is Roman Catholic, but I wonder if he piously placed it out simply as religious devotion or did he actually expect the Lord Jesus Christ to shower prosperity in the same way as the Taoist God of Wealth?

Now of course, we can't get in anyone's heads, but it did strike me as interesting to ponder.

Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :

Since most people I know who use the word "boyfriend" these days are themselves male, I wonder if this statue drowning routine, er, works for them [Confused]

Posted by Amos (# 44) on :

St Agnes, Virgin and Martyr is supposed to grant visions of the boyfriend if approached correctly:
They told her how, upon St. Agnes’ Eve,
Young virgins might have visions of delight,
And soft adorings from their loves receive
Upon the honey’d middle of the night,
If ceremonies due they did aright;
As, supperless to bed they must retire,
And couch supine their beauties, lily white;
Nor look behind, nor sideways, but require
Of Heaven with upward eyes for all that they desire.

So: You have to be a virgin to do this (see 'Unicorns'). You have to skip supper. You have to lie on your back and stare at the ceiling.

[ 11. June 2013, 12:26: Message edited by: Amos ]

Posted by Comper's Child (# 10580) on :

I recall from the dim recesses of my past a parish novena to St Anne when more than one devotee was heard to ejaculate - St Anne, St Anne - Bring me a Man.

Posted by roybart (# 17357) on :

I became involved in the St. Joseph Real Estate prayer by accident. Our neighbor was trying to sell his house but had already moved to another state. St. Joseph was buried at the foot of his mailbox, which was next to ours. I was asked -- and agreed -- to recite the written prayer in front of the mailbox until the house was sold.

St. Joseph was from a kit, and very cheaply made. The prayer was brief. Although I resented having to do this, and felt irrationally that drivers passing buy might think I was praying to the mailbox itself, I did as I promised every day.

Eventually, after months of slogging through sleet and snow, the house was sold. At that point, I was instructed to dig up St. Joseph and send him on to my (now former) neighbor.

Oddly, I found myself getting to feel quite close to St. Joseph as time passed. I began thinking of what life must have been for him in Galilee. I was actually a little sad when I had to dig St. Joseph up and send him off to Florida in a box.

Posted by Wm Dewy (# 16712) on :

quote:
St. Anthony is the patron saint for lost keys of course....

I always like St Zita for lost keys. It's good to specialize a bit. It would be nice to have a St Zita key ring, but apparently the merchants think there isn't a market for one.

Posted by georgiaboy (# 11294) on :

This thread has been very educational.
I knew about St. Catherine for husbands, and St. Joseph for real estate, and of course 'Tony, Tony, please come down …', but I'd never even heard of St. Zita. Glad to find out about St. Anne for boyfriends. Any limit to how many? [Yipee]

Posted by georgiaboy (# 11294) on :

Chiming back in to add:

How does the Infant of Prague work with weather? Except that the Blessed Mother says to him, 'You think you're going out of the house in THAT!' [Snigger]

Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :

quote:
Wm Dewy: I always like St Zita for lost keys. It's good to specialize a bit. It would be nice to have a St Zita key ring, but apparently the merchants think there isn't a market for one.

A wood sculptor made a costum key ring for me once, maybe that would be an idea?

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

quote:
Originally posted by georgiaboy:
How does the Infant of Prague work with weather?

All I know is that he is heavily alarmed.

i wanted to see the statue but the church was packed full for a mass and i was in a hurry so I squeezed into the side aisle and went just inside the altar rail on the left hand side where it is kept and set off all the alarms - and made a rapid exit to avoid arrest.

Posted by the giant cheeseburger (# 10942) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Why not ask politely, offer a gift in an area that's important to them (like working with Habitat for Humanity, if you're approaching Joseph for a house), amend your behavior, etc.?

When actor Danny Thomas was young, he asked St. Jude to help him with his career, and promised that he'd build a hospital if he were helped. His career got going, and he started St. Jude's hospital. I have no idea if Jude was really involved, but Danny kept his promise.

I agree. A pragmatic approach to dealing with folk religion would be to recognise it will never disappear completely so we may as well try to direct it towards doing something good instead of just propping up a religious statue cottage industry.

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

And there's certainly a protestant variety of this mentality - prosperity gospel, anyone?

At least the catholic version keeps the devotees in contact with a wider church.

Posted by Comper's Child (# 10580) on :

quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
And there's certainly a protestant variety of this mentality - prosperity gospel, anyone?

At least the catholic version keeps the devotees in contact with a wider church.

Yes indeed. I recall as a lark years back some friends received a paper imitation handkerchief that was meant to be touched to the TV screen during certain moments of a televangelist's broadcast. One would not only be healed but would receive great prosperity - following a donation, of course.

Does it become a third class relic of some sort ?!

(I'd not be so certain about the catholic versions as many of them are solitary exercises.)

Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :

(I walked in a procession for Saint Anthony this evening, with some Catholic friends. It was very moving, I liked it.)

Posted by Olaf (# 11804) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Comper's Child:
I recall as a lark years back some friends received a paper imitation handkerchief that was meant to be touched to the TV screen during certain moments of a televangelist's broadcast. One would not only be healed but would receive great prosperity - following a donation, of course.

Does it become a third class relic of some sort ?!

Second-class if it is a used handkerchief!

Posted by Graven Image (# 8755) on :

I was staying in a hotel and watching a TV Evangelist who said," Mother's press your sick babies to the TV screen." [Ultra confused]

I had injured my foot rather badly that day, so I put it forward.
Alas, nothing happened but then I was of very little faith that it would cure me, and he did say I had to believe to be healed.

It was hard to tell if he himself believed what he was doing or not.

Posted by Amos (# 44) on :

St Zita is the patron saint of housekeepers, and can be identified by her big bunch of keys and her grocery basket. The keys, and the absence of a crown, are the best ways of telling her from St Elizabeth of Hungary in mediaeval paintings. We've got one here, and for years it was misidentified.

Posted by Indifferently (# 17517) on :

I can't decide whether I hate this sort of Roman Catholic quaint superstition or just find it funny.

Posted by Swick (# 8773) on :

Years ago I visited the California home of some Mexican friends of a (Mexican) friend of mine. The fireplace in the livingroom had been turned into a shrine, with candles, water offering, and fruit offering, and a garland around the fireplace.

I also something similiar in a Spanish language movie about a young woman in Cuba, who was looking for a husband or boyfriend. She also had a homemade shrine with the same items, but they were on a table or shelf. She got a date with the man she wanted but it didn't go well, so when she got home she took away the water and fruit offering!

Posted by Comper's Child (# 10580) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Indifferently:
I can't decide whether I hate this sort of Roman Catholic quaint superstition or just find it funny.

But pressing paper handkerchiefs to TV screens is okay? Ha !

Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :

There's a great old movie called "Sally & St. Anne". Maureen O'Hara plays Sally, a tough, Irish-American, Catholic school teen. She's having a feud with an adult. (I think he's making trouble for her family.)

So she goes to the school chapel to pray to whomever her usual person is--but the school bell rings, and she can't get to that shrine. So she stops at the one that's right by her--St. Anne, grandmother of Jesus. She prays, then goes to class. Doesn't get the result she wanted, so she goes back to the shrine and tells Anne off. Suggests that Anne give the man a black eye, then storms out.

Two nuns are watching this unfold. One says, "What impudence!" and the other says, "What faith!"
[Big Grin]

Next time Sally goes to Sunday mass, the man has a black eye! From then on, she's totally devoted to Anne. Takes prayer requests to pass on. IIRC, the prayers are all answered in a good way. Sally is very ecumenical about taking prayer requests. Once, she's talking with a Jewish man (druggist?) who has a problem. She offers to bring it up with St. Anne. "No, thanks, I'm Jewish", he says. Sally gives him a funny look, and says "She's the grandmother of our Lord". "So?",the man says. "Jesus was Jewish," said Sally. Big smile on man's face.

(There are other things going on in the movie, too. Sally's from a large, somewhat stereotypically Irish family. Boxing brothers. Her sweet grandpa *plays* at being an invalid, and knits in his room all day. He keeps saying that when the knitting is done, he'll die and go to heaven. So whenever she gets a chance, Sally rips out a couple rows of the knitting!)

[Smile]

Posted by Porridge (# 15405) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
Chinese restaurants would typically put a statue of the Chinese God of wealth in order to generate prosperity.

One Chinese restaurant I went to, instead of the God of Wealth, placed a Crucifix.

Now I assume that the owner is Roman Catholic, but I wonder if he piously placed it out simply as religious devotion or did he actually expect the Lord Jesus Christ to shower prosperity in the same way as the Taoist God of Wealth?

Now of course, we can't get in anyone's heads, but it did strike me as interesting to ponder.

In rural New Hampshire, on a traffic circle* (*roundabout for Brits) in the middle of absolutely nowhere, I used to stop when in the area at a Chinese restaurant situated there.

The Muzak there played end-to-end Christmas carols, regardless of season. I remember eating lunch there on a blistering July day -- more to get into the air conditioning than to have Chinese food -- and downing my Mo Shu vegetables to the tune of "O Come All Ye Faithful."

Unfortunately, I forgot to note whether any prosperity gods of any particular tradition were on duty.

[ 14. June 2013, 23:02: Message edited by: Porridge ]

Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :

quote:
Anglican_Brat: One Chinese restaurant I went to, instead of the God of Wealth, placed a Crucifix.

Maybe it's a reaction to Western restaurants putting up a lot of Buddha images? [Biased]

Posted by Spiffy (# 5267) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Swick:
Years ago I visited the California home of some Mexican friends of a (Mexican) friend of mine. The fireplace in the livingroom had been turned into a shrine, with candles, water offering, and fruit offering, and a garland around the fireplace.

I also something similiar in a Spanish language movie about a young woman in Cuba, who was looking for a husband or boyfriend. She also had a homemade shrine with the same items, but they were on a table or shelf. She got a date with the man she wanted but it didn't go well, so when she got home she took away the water and fruit offering!

You'd recognize my home oratory, then. However, it's not looking for a date. It's just, you know, an oratory. Us Hispanics love our prayer corners.

Posted by no prophet (# 15560) on :

Does anyone celebrate Christ's "little side hole" (Seitenhölchen) anymore? That is, the spear hole in Christ's side, and Christ's wounds in general "so moist, so gory", loved of the Moravians and Count Zinzendorf of 250 years ago.

Posted by Edgeman (# 12867) on :

quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
Does anyone celebrate Christ's "little side hole" (Seitenhölchen) anymore? That is, the spear hole in Christ's side, and Christ's wounds in general "so moist, so gory", loved of the Moravians and Count Zinzendorf of 250 years ago.

I don't know, but the Passionist order still celebrates the feast of the Five Wounds of Christ.

Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :

I can't explain very well why, but the word Seitenhölchen sounds very funny.

Posted by Augustine the Aleut (# 1472) on :

quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:

quote:
Anglican_Brat: One Chinese restaurant I went to, instead of the God of Wealth, placed a Crucifix.
Maybe it's a reaction to Western restaurants putting up a lot of Buddha images?

Who knows? But it is not rare: within the past year (as I live in a non-monochrome part of Ottawa) I have been to a local restaurant with an image of Our Lady of Vietnam, and two Chinese restaurants with Xn imagery-- one with a Sunday School image of OLJC, and another with a plain cross. My guess is that they are likely Baptists or Alliance rather than RC.

Posted by no prophet (# 15560) on :

quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
I can't explain very well why, but the word Seitenhölchen sounds very funny.

Very viele much von German ist gesounding zo much krank vor dem ears which Ich possess.

Back on topic, I wonder if there's a mass setting in faux German, or maybe pseudo-Dutch? [Biased]

Failing that a comedy mass setting?

Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on :

quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
Failing that a comedy mass setting?

Appropriately for the Ship, there's a Pirate Eucharist.
[Big Grin]

Posted by Ariston (# 10894) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Trisagion:

quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Does the RCC still grant nihil obstat and imprimatur publishing approval?
Yes, it sure does. But each of these has a narrow technical meaning. The nihil obstat is a certification that there is nothing in the certified publication contrary to the Church's teachings on faith and morals. It is not an indication that the opinions in the book are shared by he censor. An imprimatur is a declaration that a book may be published - clerics and members of religious institutes are required to obtain the permission of their superior before publishing work related to faith and morals. Again it is not an endorsement of a work, rather it is a statement of what it is not: i.e. a work containing statements or advancing opinions contrary to the Church's teachings on faith and morals.

Interesting to hear this side of the NO/imp discussion—I work at a very Catholic publishing house that regularly publishes academic works by members of religious orders and clerics (especially Dominicans) and I've never heard of them having to get permission from their superior to publish with us. Is this something that we just don't hear about, might it be something granted to them when they become academics (and are thus expected to publish regularly), or might it be tied up with their canonical teaching license?
The other side of this tangent is that just because a work doesn't have NO/imp doesn't necessarily mean that it's not in conformity with Catholic doctrine on faith and morals, but, more likely, that the publisher didn't want to have to deal with possible delays to their publication schedule by getting approval. We recently published a book by the Pope Emeritus; if anyone really wants to accuse Benedict XVI of making public statements that deviate from Catholic teachings, imprimatur or no imprimatur...

But, more to the point, unusual devotion styles. While the Penetentes of New Mexico certainly fall into this category, I suspect some of that is syncretic, and it's not as if the Catholic Church really supports the activities of a secret organization it's suppressed. However, on the list of things that are completely above-ground is devotion to Our Lady of Ghisello, the Patroness of Bicyclists, whose shrine is appropriately located at the top of an 8-14% grade climb near Lake Como that regularly appears in the Giro di Lombardia bike race. In addition to the bike pilgrimage, however, bike racers regularly send jerseys, saint medals, or even bikes to the shrine in thanks for their wins—so the shrine has jerseys, saint medals, and bikes from most of the big names of cycling (Baroli, Coppi, and Mercx just for starters). The church got to be so crowded that, overwhelmed by the offerings and the secular visitors flocking to see them, they had to move most of the gifts to the newly-constructed cycling museum next door.

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

I'm fond of Notre Dame de Rugby.

I'm sure that in addition to helping out unemployed Hispanic girls who'd like a job and a boyfriend (or girlfriend as the case may be), Mary is only too happy to assist beefy young men with nicely toned and hairy thighs.

Also at this site here. "The French Rugby site that doesn't use cookies, but is quite partial to a Petit Beurre".

Posted by Trisagion (# 5235) on :

Canons 822-832 refer. Your experience is, however, common: these norms are honoured more in the breach than the observance these days.

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