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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: cathedral congregations
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marzipan
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# 9442
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Posted
I was wondering if anybody attends a cathedral on a regular basis (not just choir members but also folk on pews).
What experiences do people have? Do cathedrals have much of a regular congregation? How easy is it to get to know people, when various people are one time visitors?
My nearest church is actually the cathedral, and Im thinking about going regularly, but Im a bit scared that I'll never get to know anyone.
Any advice for attending a cathedral as opposed to a normal parish church?
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formerly cheesymarzipan.
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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128
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Posted
Far be it for a Nonconformist to comment ... but my very limited experience suggests that cathedrals do have regular congregations, especially the less-famous and not-so-touristy ones, and quite possibly the ones that are parish churches as well.
I do suspect that each service has quite distinct congregations, so it's probably best to be consistent and attend the "same" service on a regular basis. But that is true for many churches.
[ 28. July 2013, 16:41: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
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Basilica
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# 16965
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cheesymarzipan:
I was wondering if anybody attends a cathedral on a regular basis (not just choir members but also folk on pews).
What experiences do people have? Do cathedrals have much of a regular congregation? How easy is it to get to know people, when various people are one time visitors?
My nearest church is actually the cathedral, and Im thinking about going regularly, but Im a bit scared that I'll never get to know anyone.
Any advice for attending a cathedral as opposed to a normal parish church?
To a large extent, it depends on the cathedral. Some, like St Paul's or Canterbury (I'm assuming Church of England here, for no reason other than that's where I am), will have majority tourist congregations. Others, like Carlisle, St Albans or Truro, have congregations that are much more like an ordinary parish congregation. It's well worth going along to a service and having a look. Ask the clergy about the nature of the congregation and congregational life.
It's worth bearing in mind as well that even in majority tourist congregations there may well be a substantial regular "parish" congregation.
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ThunderBunk
Stone cold idiot
# 15579
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Posted
In my experience they vary enormously. I would recommend simply trying it out in the same way as you might any other church. They can be such a mixed bunch, varying from the hostile to the incredibly welcoming, in my experience that the fact of it being a cathedral becomes immaterial, except that the music is often better, which is a critical facto for me, if not necessarily a decisive one....
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Posts: 2208 | From: Norwich | Registered: Apr 2010
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marzipan
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# 9442
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Posted
Thanks for your comments so far...
I went to a service this morning (hence the thread - if it was too scary I would have just not gone back!)
As there was torrential downpour about half an hour before the service started, there weren't many tourists/visitors that I could spot. Most of the (small) congregation seemed to know each other. The service sheet had a section to fill in your contact details, so I handed it in with my hymn book and was introduced to the Dean, who seems friendly.
As for music, the organ was wonderful but as the choir is on holiday for the summer (and no visiting choir this week), it was difficult to make the words audible over the organ. I'm not sure if that's because they're used to the choir leading, or if there were less people there than normal, the difficulty of filling the nave with sound, or if the organ was too loud.
Of course when the choir is back in september that will be different.
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formerly cheesymarzipan.
Now containing 50% less cheese
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Zappa
Ship's Wake
# 8433
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Posted
The Cathedral I'm about to take on has a wonderful reputation for warmth of welcome and authenticity of communion. Of course this may prove to be a chimera when I get there.
The tricky bit is the balance, that most cathedrals have, between the role as a parish church, role as a host of undefined spirituality for a city, and host of focus for a diocese ... it's a juggling act that means it will never have the simple life of a St Swithin's by the Sea or a Cuthbert's on the Clifftop.
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
Some cathedrals are parish churches as well. In my experience they seem to be very friendly, and may well have a separate choir for the parish service. As services in cathedrals vary hugely, you would do well to look at information online or in their newsletter / magazine to see which one would fit your personality best.
Numbers can often vary hugely when the choir is on holiday; also the Sunday School may well be on holiday at the same time, meaning fewer families.
As with any large church, it's often a good idea to join a smaller group within the church, to get to know a few people better.
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Adam.
Like as the
# 4991
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Posted
I have a good number of friends who are parishioners at our local cathedral. They certainly appreciate the musical resources and, it being a larger parish, there's plenty of stuff happening and groups to join to give a good amount of parish life to join in with. They've never mentioned this, but I suppose you have to be OK with "your church" being "taken over" for diocesan events a lot, but that might actually be an attraction for some of them. I imagine it's also a lot harder to schedule a wedding than at most parishes.
[ 28. July 2013, 23:29: Message edited by: Hart ]
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Pia
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# 17277
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Posted
I have attended my local cathedral regularly for nearly three years now, and I absolutely love it. It is one of our smaller cathedrals, and definitely has a regular congregation and a 'community' feel. I can imagine that one of the huge historic (touristy?) cathedrals would feel very different, but that's not the case here.
I started going there because I knew that the worship style at my local church wasn't to my taste, and because I thought that, as a relatively recent returner to church-going, I'd be able to be a bit anonymous there and no-one would notice if I just sort of slipped away at some point. Instead, I am now involved in all sorts of ways, and it's definitely my 'home' church: its being a cathedral is incidental.
I'd agree with what others have said about choosing a service and sticking to it, for continuity of faces and making of contacts. (Though, having said that, some of our services are amalgamated anyway over the summer, when lots of people are on holiday, including the choir.) One of the beauties of the cathedral is that you can find a service (or more than one) that suits you - and even more than that, perhaps, that you can experiment and maybe try something that's a bit outside your comfort zone occasionally without having to change church.
I am not a great getter-to-know-er, and it took me a while to get beyond the slightly-uncomfortable-hanging-around-at-coffee stage, but once I got to know a few people it quickly snowballed. And in my case this was exacerbated by the fact that I had not been a regular church-goer for nearly 30 years, so I was a bit out of my comfort zone in general at the beginning.
Give it a try - and give it till September when the choir returns! - and good luck. Personally, I couldn't be happier.
[ 28. July 2013, 23:45: Message edited by: Pia ]
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malik3000
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# 11437
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Posted
I get the sense that the cathedral of St. John the Divine in New York -- certainly a tourist attraction -- has a definite parish community. I think one or two Shipmates make it their parish home. I've been there one time, to an 11AM Sunday Eucharist in the summer when the choir was off. It was rather cozy and friendly (we were in chairs arranged close to the nave altar), the presider was welcoming, and I spoke with a couple of friendly folk after the service. If I lived in NYC I wouldn't rule it out as a parish home (although currently another NYC church currently unofficially fills that role for me.)
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PD
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# 12436
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Posted
I like cathedrals. For a start they are likely to have choral Matins, and then to have BCP 1662 Communion afterwards. That means I do nt have to deal with the prattishness of the modern C of E.
Definite Bonus there!
PD
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Spike
Mostly Harmless
# 36
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PD:
I like cathedrals. For a start they are likely to have choral Matins, and then to have BCP 1662 Communion afterwards. That means I do nt have to deal with the prattishness of the modern C of E.
When was the last time you went to an English cathedral? I know of a few (though not many) that have Choral Matins every week but I can't think of any that do 1662 Communion.
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Angloid
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# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PD:
I like cathedrals. For a start they are likely to have choral Matins, and then to have BCP 1662 Communion afterwards. That means I do nt have to deal with the prattishness of the modern C of E.
Definite Bonus there!
PD
Prattishness is in the eye of the beholder, but to my mind there is a particular sort of cathedral prattishness which is seen in things like, readers etc having to be pompously pokered to their place rather than just go there unobtrusively; bombastic organ playing; overly-formal and impersonal liturgy (I'm all for formality and impersonality provided we don't pretend to be other than human)... and so on.
My guess is that while this sort of prattishness is on the wane, and is by no means found in all cathedrals, it lingers most in the sort of cathedrals that cling on to sung Mattins and BCP services.
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dv
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# 15714
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Posted
I worship at a Cathedral in my nearest city. It is actually much more friendly and inclusive than the local parishes I tried before going there.
I always felt like a freak in local churches when I returned to going to services as a single male then in my 40s. Everything at Parish level around here seems either coffin-dodgingly, depressingly, moribund or entirely family orientated (all aimed at kids and no spiritual food for adults). I did the "Back To Church Sunday" thing at several local Parish churches, over the years, and found they were just as bad as what had driven me away in the first place - but unsurprisingly greyer and much depleted in numbers. Welcome! I've tried to commit to two local churches for reasonable periods (9 months, 12 months) to see if things get better as I became more involved but I've concluded that the model is largely bust and can't be mended. They're just cruelly sapping clergy energy while waiting for people to die or trapped in the delusion that new folk will miraculously find this dullness enticeing. At least three generations of failure doesn't seem to have encouraged the CofE ostriches to get their heads out of the sand.
At the Cathedral there is a much wider spread of ages, interests and ethnicities than at a typical parish service. It feels like a vibrant Christian community and with the added advantage that things are done well. They are better resourced, there's a better "hit rate" on sermons and the music is great. (Congregations do tend to dwindle a bit at most cathedrals when the choir is on holiday, so don't let that put you off.) Our Cathedral also accommodates different kinds of churchmanship, too, with its choral reverant-but-accessible stuff supplemented by a café-style service happening simultaneously each Sunday. Lots of other activities throughout the week, too, including socially-engaged things like foodbanks, etc., and theological courses and spiritual formation groups to get involved with as one wishes.
Sometimes people characterise Cathedral worship as something for individuals who don't wish to commit and to remain anonymous but I'd say that's wrong, from my experience: the congregation is largely stable, week by week, and there's lots of opportunity for people to deepen their engagement. I'd actually see the way forward for the CofE as having a mini-Cathedral in each large town and axeing a lot of Parish churches. They're often doing more harm than good.
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MrsBeaky
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# 17663
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Posted
When we are not in Kenya we are members of our Cathedral congregation and to a lesser extent our local parish church. (Both are within walking distance of our house and both have taken some sense of ownership for sending us out to serve here)
Our cathedral definitely has congregations gathered around each of the services so if you want to develop any meaningful relationships it makes sense to choose a service to attend regularly. We have a real community but it takes time to get to know people and most of the members are 60 plus in age (we're the youth group in our 50s!) but we do have a few young families and some other younger people.
Attending events and small groups like Lenten courses has also been a good way of getting to know people. There appear to be circles of friendship gathered around different activities.
We love our cathedral:The quality of the music, liturgy and preaching are all life-giving....
Now I feel homesick!
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Bishops Finger
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# 5430
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Posted
The summer tends to be the time IME when Cathedrals back-pedal a bit, what with the regular choir on holiday and (perhaps) the Sunday School-or-whatever also on leave......they change up a gear or several in September! OTOH, it gives visiting choirs, often of very high calibre, a chance to show what they can do - so it's worthwhile keeping an eye on Cathedrals' websites.
At one time, our Cathedral congregation here used to migrate from the Nave to the Quire for the Sung Eucharist on Sundays in August, giving that particular service a much more intimate feel.
Ian J.
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Ad Orientem
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# 17574
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Posted
My old RC church was the cathedral church. It was no bigger than the average parish church in England. With Roman Catholics numbering only ten thousand in the whole country everyone knew everyone and so it was a pretty tight knit community. There is the added bonus of regular liturgies served by the bishop.
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
Cathedrals often have a consistently higher quality of preaching, too, and assume that their listeners have a reasonable IQ and quality of education. I despair sometimes in parish churches when priests, who themselves often have a good level of theological education, assume all members of their congregation are simpletons who can't cope with any complicated thoughts at all.
I hear reports that Exeter Cathedral has sadly given up having Choral Mattins, and also Nightchurch, but the fact that they have had such a range - and hope to continue to provide such a range, albeit in revised format, indicates that anyone who thinks Cathedrals only offer stuffy out-of-touch worship doesn't know what they are talking about.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
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Gamaliel
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# 812
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Posted
I agree with the overall standard of preaching in cathedrals. At our parish church I come away with the impression that the vicar thinks the average age of the congregation is about 12.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I agree with the overall standard of preaching in cathedrals. At our parish church I come away with the impression that the vicar thinks the average age of the congregation is about 12.
Ironic innit? Most smaller village shacks he'd be better aiming at 112.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Yes, that's true, Karl, in which case they both arrive at the same place ... in the one they'll be talking to everyone as if they've got the mental capacity of school kids, in the other they'll be treating them the same as they're aging and ga-ga.
Sure, there are younger families and kids and lots of stuff going on at our parish church but I still don't like being addressed as if I'm stupid.
You ought to see the notes the vicar provides for the house-groups ... 'kinnell ... ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
On one teaching series about Jonah he invited people to 'draw a picture of the whale'.
Well get stuffed ... how old does he think we are? Nine?
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
Have you considered the possibility that the Vicar has the mental capacity of a 9 year old.
That was very bad of me but I've said it now.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
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Vade Mecum
Shipmate
# 17688
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Have you considered the possibility that the Vicar has the mental capacity of a 9 year old.
That was very bad of me but I've said it now.
The awful thing is that very often the precise opposite is the case: priests with enormous amounts of intellect end up preaching patronising twaddle because they're unsure of where to pitch the tone for a mixed congregation, and so either plump for lowest common denominator (sermon by anecdote &c) or err on the side of caution and end up saying very little at all.
Having said this, I was flummoxed on Sunday, when a parishioner mentioned the fact that one of the things she had always enjoyed about Father's sermons, which I must confess to having found somewhat simplistic and devoid of continuity, was "how the never went over your head" and how "you always come away with something", which made me wonder whether I knew what the congregation's level of comprehension was.
Do we, as educated and theologically literate churchgoers (who've probably heard hundreds of sermons from dozens of different people) actually exaggerate how simplistic sermons are, because that's how they seem to us?
Perhaps this is what draws us to cathedral worship, which then in turn makes us more critical of sermons in general, and thus less happy to sit through simplistic ones? [cycles viciously]
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I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
Posts: 307 | From: North London | Registered: May 2013
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Zappa
Ship's Wake
# 8433
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Posted
I inherited a parish three parishes back where my predecessor had a stated policy of preaching to everyone as if they were 14 year olds. I don't think that works: the congregation's faith and praxis was infantile. I like to think it improved when I was there (but then I would, wouldn't I ? ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif) ). I'm convinced it's better to stretch than fluff a faith community and while it's possible that policy sometimes leads to an "over the head shot" (and I try to unpack the Big Stuff™) that seems better than fluff and fancy.
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
When training as a tourist guide, I was taught "Never underestimate the tourists' intelligence. Never overestimate their knowledge." That strikes me as the right idea for sermons.
I don't mind the language being simple but there are 12 year olds who understand quantum theory. Perhaps preachers should aim at them.
There is a sort of boring cathedral sermon I've come across which is just retailing book reviews the preacher has read recently in the Sunday papers.
That is just as fluffy as the silly joke and anecdote style and pretentious to boot.
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
I have a preference for preaching on my own level theologically, but I tend to avoid words with more than three syllables. I get compliments on my sermons fairly regularly, but I have also lost a few folks to the other parish where they tell little stories about Jesus rather than preach sermons.
PD
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Posts: 4431 | From: Between a Rock and a Hard Place | Registered: Mar 2007
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Spike:
I like When was the last time you went to an English cathedral? I know of a few (though not many) that have Choral Matins every week but I can't think of any that do 1662 Communion.
Last September, thank you, chum!
I think you should also take it as read by '1662' would tend to include CW Order Two Trad. Language.
PD
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Adam.
Like as the
# 4991
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Posted
The Good News isn't really very complicated. In fact it's scandalously simple: God loves us all so much that He gave His only Son that we might have eternal life. Greeks demand wisdom, but we are to preach Christ crucified.
Yes, we are supposed to worship the Lord with all our mind (as well as body, soul and heart), but is Sunday worship the time for theological erudition?
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Posts: 8164 | From: Notre Dame, IN | Registered: Sep 2003
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
But then you get the comment I heard from a very wise old man at a previous parish: 'Sadly the Vicar only has one sermon. Which he preaches every week'.
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Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PD:
[]
I think you should also take it as read by '1662' would tend to include CW Order Two Trad. Language.
Which is 1662, at least as close as anyone has ever got to it in the last 100 years. I'd be interested to know which if any cathedrals provide that as part of their regular schedule. Possibly at 8am but then many parish churches do too. What about the main sunday eucharist?
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Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hart:
The Good News isn't really very complicated. In fact it's scandalously simple: God loves us all so much that He gave His only Son that we might have eternal life. Greeks demand wisdom, but we are to preach Christ crucified.
Yes, we are supposed to worship the Lord with all our mind (as well as body, soul and heart), but is Sunday worship the time for theological erudition?
I entirely agree there, Hart. But 'chats about Jesus' tend to avoid the key points of your summary above.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
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Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Thanks Karl Liberal-Backslider, now you come to mention it ... ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
![[Snigger]](graemlins/snigger.gif)
Very good, very good indeed ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Zappa
Ship's Wake
# 8433
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hart:
The Good News isn't really very complicated. In fact it's scandalously simple: God loves us all so much that He gave His only Son that we might have eternal life. Greeks demand wisdom, but we are to preach Christ crucified.
Yes, we are supposed to worship the Lord with all our mind (as well as body, soul and heart), but is Sunday worship the time for theological erudition?
Which is true. But being told those words every week might just develop a sort of deja vu (though I admit the liturgical words don't. But still). So after a while, sitting in the pew, I would want to say "so the ### what?" And that's where I find a few words about Syria or prodigals or prophetic vision quite useful.
When I use multi-poly-syllabic or academic in-words ("entelechy") I unpack them and discuss their usefulness for Scrabble. "Vertical dittography" is cheating. It's two words and in any case has no place in a sermon. "Xenophobia" or "angst" probably need unpacking. "Ptolomeic diacritical synthesis" or "rhetological fallacy" are terminological bullspoo and make the Postdoc Jesus cry.
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Posts: 18917 | From: "Central" is all they call it | Registered: Sep 2004
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Basilica
Shipmate
# 16965
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hart:
The Good News isn't really very complicated. In fact it's scandalously simple: God loves us all so much that He gave His only Son that we might have eternal life. Greeks demand wisdom, but we are to preach Christ crucified.
Yes, we are supposed to worship the Lord with all our mind (as well as body, soul and heart), but is Sunday worship the time for theological erudition?
Well, that's the thing. The Christian Good News is at once scandalously simple and the most incomprehensible mystery. The preacher needs to do justice to both.
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
Having studied for a Theology certificate (level one of an undergraduate degree), I realise that I have only dipped my toe into the waters of wider Theological study. But, because I have done this, I find it incredibly affirming when hearing a preacher use thoughts and ideas that I came across during this time. It is as if, during those particular sermons, academic study and practical Christianity unite to become one in my mind, and in the church as a whole. And that can only be a good thing.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
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