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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Resting in Peace, Rising in Glory?
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Hazeldean
Apprentice
# 17706
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Posted
I have noticed recently in Canada that the response to "May they rest in peace", which is usually "Amen" is now often "And rise in glory". I see this in the recent issue of the Anglican Journal above the list of deceased donors and memorials. When did this happen and where does this come from? It isn't in the Book of Alternative Services and not part of the liturgy.
Posts: 24 | From: Ottawa Canada | Registered: May 2013
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
Is it that time of year already. I have found Corvo's thread in Oblivion, there is even a discussion on the current Miscellaneous Questions thread. Hopefully someone will be able to link to the other discussions and we can get slightly further on this one.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
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Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
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Posted
As I recall, the previous threads identified trends in its usage, and quite a few reasons why people didn't use it... but no actual derivation!
Many we will indeed have more luck this time.
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Flinging wide the gates...
Posts: 10335 | From: Hanging in the balance of the reality of man | Registered: Jun 2003
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
Some say that Robert Runcie introduced it when he was principal of Cuddeston.
Then there's Family prayers: collected from the sacred scriptures, the Book of Common Prayer and the works of Bishop Wilson by the Right Rev. William Mead D.D., Assistant Bishops of Virginia quote:
And now, O God all-powerful take us, this night under thy protection, preserve us from the powers of darkness and the dangers of the night and by they grace and providence bring us at the last through all the trials and temptations of this world to a blessed end, that we may rest in hope and rise in glory through Jesus Christ our Lord and saviour to whom with thee and the Holy Ghost be all honour and glory, world without end, Amen_____________________________________
(which another shipmate dug out but can't remember who.
Thomas Whitataker in 1885
quote:
let him die in peace, and rest in hope, and rise in glory
Vicar of All Saints Lambeth in 1975 quote:
May he rest in peace and rise in glory
ditto
From Arthur Tooth
quote:
Rest eternal grant to them O Lord,
and let light perpetual shine upon them: May their souls, and the souls of all the departed, through the mercy of God rest in peace. May they rise in glory.
We used it in the now defunct Jubilee group.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
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Posted
leo, given our checkered history, perhaps you can favor us with citations for all of those.
It's one thing to offer unattributed quotes in the free flow of a Purgatory argument, but I should think it isn't quite up to scratch for an Ecclesiantics thread, especially for a thread such as this where we have repeatedly failed to get to the bottom of a question.
Posts: 7462 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
leo, given our checkered history, perhaps you can favor us with citations for all of those.
Some of them are On this very Ship, here. and in other posts in that thread.
I think we solved the mystery of where they come from and how they got here.
In summary it seems that prayers like this - more often originally "rest in hope and rise in glory" - were used on grave inscriptions in early modern times, then got into private devotions and prayers for the dead, and from there into Anglo-Catholic vestry prayers, and have come out into the open church in the last few decades.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
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Posted
ken, I have no doubt about your ability and willingness to cite your work. Thank you for helping us out with the citations.
Posts: 7462 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
leo, given our checkered history, perhaps you can favor us with citations for all of those.
It's one thing to offer unattributed quotes in the free flow of a Purgatory argument, but I should think it isn't quite up to scratch for an Ecclesiantics thread, especially for a thread such as this where we have repeatedly failed to get to the bottom of a question.
Don't know the origins - I merely copied and pasted bits of info over time - nowadays i always copy links re- sources but didn't back then.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
Ken
Have you thought of tidying that up an submitting it to Anaphora?
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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Hazeldean
Apprentice
# 17706
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Posted
"Is it that time of year already." It is discouraging to those of us who are new here and not very welcoming when the response to our questions is "We have already discussed this, don't bother us" or a variation of this. I can't spend time going through all the threads on all the topics on all the discussions. When I clicked on the reference to a previous discussion, it was in 2009. It's good that someone posts the link, but please don't criticise the questioner whose only fault seems to be that he or she hasn't been around long enough.
Posts: 24 | From: Ottawa Canada | Registered: May 2013
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hazeldean:
"Is it that time of year already." It is discouraging to those of us who are new here and not very welcoming when the response to our questions is "We have already discussed this, don't bother us" or a variation of this.
Did you read the posts after this one? It kind of got left in the dust, and the convo actually moved into discussing the topic itself.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Hazeldean
Apprentice
# 17706
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Posted
Of couse I did and thanks to those who responded. However, the initial response was upsetting and I am addressing that person.
Posts: 24 | From: Ottawa Canada | Registered: May 2013
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Hazeldean
Apprentice
# 17706
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Posted
The rest pof the reponse was hekpful, but hy start with "is it that time of the year already?" What time of year? The "silly season"? I don't get it, but it didn't sound positive.
Posts: 24 | From: Ottawa Canada | Registered: May 2013
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The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
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Posted
Relax, Hazeldean. I read Jengie Jon's remark to refer to the fact that the Feast of All Souls (it is a feast, isn't it?) was coming up in November.
In any event, don't be so quick to take offence.
The first two responses to your opening post were hopefully we can get slightly further and maybe we will have more luck this time. Rather encouraging in my reading.
Posts: 7462 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001
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Forthview
Shipmate
# 12376
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Posted
In the RC church All Souls is a 'Commemoration'.
Posts: 3444 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2007
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Hazeldean
Apprentice
# 17706
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Posted
OK, sorry I was so quick to take offence. Unfortunately, the pitfalls of internet discussion are that you don't know the context, you don't know the person, and you can't immediately seek clarification. Also, there are people whose default position is to be rude and I was too sensitive to that. It hadn't occurred to me that All saints/All Souls was so close.
Posts: 24 | From: Ottawa Canada | Registered: May 2013
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Trisagion
Shipmate
# 5235
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Forthview:
In the RC church All Souls is a 'Commemoration'.
Well, up to a point, Lord Copper.
A 'Commemoration' is a way of marking a lesser ranked feast which coincides with a higher one according to the rubrics of the extraordinary form of the Roman Rite. It was not really a rank of feast.
In fact, 2nd November was a double feast prior to Pope St Pius V's calendar revision of 1568, when it was then ranked as a double of the first class. Following Pope Bl. John XXIII revision of the calendar in 1960 it was ranked as a first class feast. It's name was Commemoratio Omnium Fidelium Defunctorum. In the ordinary form it retains the same name, in English 'Commemoration of All the Faithful Departed'. It is ranked as a Solemnity.
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ceterum autem censeo tabula delenda esse
Posts: 3923 | Registered: Nov 2003
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Corvo
Shipmate
# 15220
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hazeldean:
I have noticed recently in Canada that the response to "May they rest in peace", which is usually "Amen" is now often "And rise in glory". I see this in the recent issue of the Anglican Journal above the list of deceased donors and memorials. When did this happen and where does this come from? It isn't in the Book of Alternative Services and not part of the liturgy.
My own conclusion from the lengthy previous discussions was that if anyone could be held responsible it was Bishop Joe Fison. Fison is said to have influenced many generations of theological students.
F. W. Dillistone's 'The Life of Joe Fison' [Bishop of Salisbury 1963 -1972] concludes
"Joe's own last word might have been the phrase which he taught others to add to the traditional prayer:
'May the souls of the departed rest in peace:'
And rise in Glory."
I think it is very likely that he is responsible for the popularity of the "rise in glory" response in MOTR parishes which in the 1960s were probably just beginning to regularly use the 'rest in peace' formula.
In his 'The Christian Hope' of 1954 Filson he argues that the Parousia is the central feature of Christian hope - as opposed to the immortality of the soul / resurrection of the body. He sees being 'in Christ' in this life as qualitatively in continuity with the 'second' coming. (This was the era of 'realised eschatology'.)
Although he does not seem to use the expression 'rise in glory' in the book. my impression is he would have understood it more as a corrective to 'rest in peace' rather than (as it were) a prayer for what would happen next in the afterlife. In other words death is the moment when the Christian is fully united with Christ - when in earthly terms he rests in peace because he has now risen in glory.
Posts: 672 | From: The Most Holy Trinity, Coach Lane, North Shields | Registered: Oct 2009
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
We say it at the end of the vestry prayer just before the dismissal of the choir. I can remember it being introduced sometime in the 1990s by the husband of a priest who joined the choir around that time.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Hazeldean
Apprentice
# 17706
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Posted
I regard the "rise in glory" as referrring to the Parousia and not to souls floating about. Frankly, it must confuse people who think that the sould rises in glory at the moment of death, which is what most lay people think and many clergy teach, whether or not they believe it. The pressure on clergy to make a saint out of every person at their funerals is enormous. Most lay people are amazingly unaware of the Second Coming and the Final Judgement and are actually pagans. They are comfortable with Elysian Fields and most Christian teaching does nothing to disabuse them of these notions. Undoubtedly, they would worry about what happens to people between their death and the Coming of Christ. Unless they want to get into issues about Purgatory, I'm not sure they get a decent answer.
Posts: 24 | From: Ottawa Canada | Registered: May 2013
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
Hazeldean
As a layperson I've noticed that there seems to be a struggle between the belief that we'll rise again when Jesus returns, and the belief that when we die we go to meet God straight away. As you say, it's the latter that we hear at funerals, even the funerals of Christians, but the regular liturgies tend to focus on the former.
There's never any explanation as to which of these beliefs is correct, nor whether it's possible to believe in both at the same time. I suppose there's a certain awkwardness when it comes to death and the afterlife. We hardly talk about these things unless someone has died, and we don't hear sermons about them.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Hazeldean
As a layperson I've noticed that there seems to be a struggle between the belief that we'll rise again when Jesus returns, and the belief that when we die we go to meet God straight away. As you say, it's the latter that we hear at funerals, even the funerals of Christians, but the regular liturgies tend to focus on the former.
There's never any explanation as to which of these beliefs is correct, nor whether it's possible to believe in both at the same time. I suppose there's a certain awkwardness when it comes to death and the afterlife. We hardly talk about these things unless someone has died, and we don't hear sermons about them.
I really like N.T. Wright's book on this topic, Surprised by Hope. I believe he mostly goes with the former of the two views you mentioned: not so much an immediate floating toward the Light to meet Jesus right away, but more about how God will do for all of creation what God did for Jesus on Easter Day. A new heaven and a new earth.
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