Ship of Fools: Upgrading feasts

Thread: Upgrading feasts Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by Thurible (# 3206) on :

This may not warrant its own thread, in which case please tranfer it to the Misc one with my apologies, but I was wondering about upgrading feasts, principally in the CofE and principally with CW but a general principle applies.

Tomorrow is, of course, the Solemnity of the Assumption in the Roman Use; the Dormition for our eastern brethren and, in the CofE, the Festival of the Blessed Virgin Mary.

It strikes me that any Anglican who keeps the 15 August with any solemnity upgrades it to the level of a Principal Holy Day (otherwise they don't bother - unless, I suppose, it's on a Wednesday morning when they're going to have Holy Communion followed by coffee for the MU anyway).

Is this technically legit? The CW rules say:

quote:
Lesser Festivals, which are listed in the Calendar, are observed at the level appropriate to a particular church.

I can't see anything, though, that says one can bump festivals. Which seems a bit odd.

What seems more odd, though, is that I also can't see what differentiates a festival and a principal holy day.

In Roman-speak, a solemnity would have a gloria, proper collect, lesson, psalm, epistle and gospel, and a credo; a feast would have a gloria, proper collect, lesson, psalm, epistle and gospel; a memoria would have a proper collect, lesson, psalm and gospel.

Is there anywhere official that tells us what should be done to differentiate between the levels if one's using Official Anglican Books.

Perhaps not very interesting to anyone else but a sharing of questions I'm pondering whilst waiting for the work printer!

Thurible

Posted by dj_ordinaire (# 4643) on :

Surely the part about 'appropriate for a particular church' gives one a lot of leeway? Although I imagine the intention is to allow for Patronal Festivals to be 'upgraded', one could claim it as a reason for celebrating any local saint, or any for which there was a history of devotion in the parish.

As an example, the city centre parish I worshipped in for some years had incorporated several other equally tiny parishes in the years between 1530 and the 1970s. Each patron was commemorated with a daily Eucharist (out of interest, this covered the BVM, St. Michael & All Angels, St. Peter, St. Martin and SS Simon and Jude, which surely seems enough to be going on with!)

Posted by Thurible (# 3206) on :

Oh, indeed. But that's only for Lesser Festivals, rather than for Feasts. Or is it?

Thurible

Posted by Liturgylover (# 15711) on :

I don't know the answer to the question, but I do know that as it comes slap-bang in the middle of the holiday period, it is often not observed as widely as it might be.

I was surprised that Westminster Cathedral is just having a said mass, whereas the Abbey and St Paul's are both having Sung Eucharists (with visiting choirs) - as indeed are ASMS, Bourne St, St Albans and Old St Pancras. I know several others are transferring to the Sunday (another thing which I am not sure is permitted).

Posted by Thurible (# 3206) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Liturgylover:
I know several others are transferring to the Sunday (another thing which I am not sure is permitted).

It's not; we are.

Thurible

Posted by fletcher christian (# 13919) on :

The CofI got around it by not having any 'lesser festivals', just 'feasts' and 'local custom' (although the local custom is to accommodate local saints of which there are many in Ireland). At the last revision they introduced the feast of the Birth of the BVM and tried to get the feast of the Dormition in, but there was too much objection from the more hard line evangelicals. The result is that we observe her birth, the annunciation and the visitation, and then we are expected to believe she....well I'm not too sure....disappeared, or something. It was a peculiar evangelical victory to say the least.

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Liturgylover:
I don't know the answer to the question, but I do know that as it comes slap-bang in the middle of the holiday period, it is often not observed as widely as it might be.

I was surprised that Westminster Cathedral is just having a said mass, whereas the Abbey and St Paul's are both having Sung Eucharists (with visiting choirs) - as indeed are ASMS, Bourne St, St Albans and Old St Pancras. I know several others are transferring to the Sunday (another thing which I am not sure is permitted).

The RCs transfer to Sunday, which is probably why Westminister cathedral is only having a said mass on the Thursday.

As for the OP, I don;'t know the answer - but those of us who have always kept the Assumption with a solemn mass will continue to do so - especially in the face of holidays and stuff.

Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :

Surely the directions in CW are the minimum. Feasts should (must?) be observed, but the degree of solemnity is up to the parish. It's the same with major feasts of our Lord like Ascension: many places can only manage a low mass with half a dozen people. Nothing to stop anybody being more ambitious. Even for the feast of St Baldrick the Unworthy.

It's another question why so many parishes don't even attempt the minimum.

Posted by Basilica (# 16965) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Thurible:

quote:
Originally posted by Liturgylover:
I know several others are transferring to the Sunday (another thing which I am not sure is permitted).
It's not; we are.

Thurible

You can if it's the feast of title for the parish...

Posted by Liturgylover (# 15711) on :

quote:
Originally posted by leo:

The RCs transfer to Sunday, which is probably why Westminister cathedral is only having a said mass on the Thursday.

[/QB][/QUOTE]
No - the RC's don't transfer to Sunday. It is a Holy day of Obligation and kept on the day itself, which makes Westminster Cathedral's decision all the more surprising.

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

English and Welsh RCs move a Holy Day of Obligation falling on a Saturday or Monday in Ordinary Time to the Sunday, or at least they used to do so.

In CW, The Blessed Virgin Mary is a Festival, the same as all the BCP red letter days. If it falls on a Sunday, it can take precedence. It has an optional first evensong. It has proper psalms and readings for the offices and mass.

What more can you want?

(Lesser Festivals, (ie Jeremy Taylor, Clare of Assisi, Mary Sumner) have very little extra provision.)

There are very few Greater Festivals with compulsory first evensongs and trumping the Sunday: Christmas, Epiphany, All Saints and Purification. But festivals can be treated the same.

[ 14. August 2013, 12:45: Message edited by: venbede ]

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

And the RC church in England and Wales is certainly keeping the Assumption tomorrow:

http://www.liturgyoffice.org.uk/Calendar/2013/Aug.shtml

Posted by Sergius-Melli (# 17462) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Liturgylover:
I know several others are transferring to the Sunday (another thing which I am not sure is permitted).

I'm not sure about transferring it as far as Sunday (except for a Patronal feast) but there is a provision for moving the celebration of a feast to a suitable day adjoining the original day for pastoral reasons, which is what has happened in the parish here today.

[ 14. August 2013, 14:17: Message edited by: Sergius-Melli ]

Posted by PeteC (# 10422) on :

In Canada, the Assumption is not a holy day of obligation (Only Christmas and New Year's are) but it is certainly not transferred. It is being celebrated as a Solemnity on the 15th. I know because I am going.

Posted by PD (# 12436) on :

I think a patronal festival, or for that matter, the feast of the Falling Asleep of the BVM may be scienfically adjusted upwards in rank on the excuse of 'local custom' without doing violence to the rules currently existent in CW. At least, that's how I read it...

PD

Posted by Thurible (# 3206) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
Surely the directions in CW are the minimum. Feasts should (must?) be observed, but the degree of solemnity is up to the parish. It's the same with major feasts of our Lord like Ascension: many places can only manage a low mass with half a dozen people. Nothing to stop anybody being more ambitious.

Indeed. I suppose what I'm trying to do is ignore the fact that I know the RC rules like the back of my hand and could apply them in my sleep. I'm trying to work out how one would know what to do if one didn't, in essence, copy Rome.

Thurible

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :

Might it be the case that Westminster Cathedral is not having a Sung Mass simply because their most excellent choir is on holiday? Mind you, I don't know how it might work in the RC church, but our local Cathedral musters visiting (parish) choirs when their choir is away......

....and, as we have a regular Wednesday evening Mass, we are borrowing the RC readings for the Vigil Mass of the Assumption, and having one of our Solemn Low Masses with hymns and incense, with our local Cell of Our Lady of Walsingham in attendance!

(Morning Prayer tomorrow will have the proper CW lections, psalms, and Collect for the day).

I don't know how legal all this is, but it's the best way for us, given our small congregation. We might get 12-14 this evening, with 3 or 4 at Morning Prayer tomorrow (one or two regular Morning Pray-ers are on holiday).

Ian J.

Posted by Liturgylover (# 15711) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
Might it be the case that Westminster Cathedral is not having a Sung Mass simply because their most excellent choir is on holiday?

Yes, that is obviously the reason, and it's perhaps understandable not to have a full solemn mass when their choir is on holiday. But one would think that for a Holy Day of Obligation a Cathedral might at least rustle up an organist and provide at least a sung congregational mass with hymns and the Salve Regina, rather than just a said mass.

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Liturgylover:

quote:
Originally posted by leo:
The RCs transfer to Sunday, which is probably why Westminister cathedral is only having a said mass on the Thursday.

No - the RC's don't transfer to Sunday. It is a Holy day of Obligation and kept on the day itself, which makes Westminster Cathedral's decision all the more surprising. [/QB][/QUOTE]
I was surprised that it isn't transferred to a Sunday - practically everything else is except Christmas Day and Ash Wednesday e.g. Peter and Paul, Corpus Christi.

Every sensible country is having a bank holiday tomorrow. As we aren't, it was make sense to transfer it.

CW may call it a 'feast' but AFAIAC it's a solemnity.

[ 14. August 2013, 18:39: Message edited by: leo ]

Posted by Ceremoniar (# 13596) on :

In the USA, the Assumption is a holy day of obligation and is thus observed on the 15th, regardless of what day of the week on which it falls. When it falls on Saturday or Monday, it is still observed, but there is no obligation.

Posted by Liturgylover (# 15711) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Ceremoniar:
In the USA, the Assumption is a holy day of obligation and is thus observed on the 15th, regardless of what day of the week on which it falls. When it falls on Saturday or Monday, it is still observed, but there is no obligation.

It is in England and Wales, Scotland, Ireland and the rest of Europe too. The Czech republic seems to be the only place where it is not observed at all.

Posted by Liturgylover (# 15711) on :

quote:
Originally posted by leo:

quote:
Originally posted by Liturgylover:

quote:
Originally posted by leo:
The RCs transfer to Sunday, which is probably why Westminister cathedral is only having a said mass on the Thursday.

No - the RC's don't transfer to Sunday. It is a Holy day of Obligation and kept on the day itself, which makes Westminster Cathedral's decision all the more surprising.

I was surprised that it isn't transferred to a Sunday - practically everything else is except Christmas Day and Ash Wednesday e.g. Peter and Paul, Corpus Christi.

Every sensible country is having a bank holiday tomorrow. As we aren't, it was make sense to transfer it.

CW may call it a 'feast' but AFAIAC it's a solemnity. [/QB][/QUOTE]

Ash Wednesday isn't a day of obligation. In England and Wales St Peter and Paul (along with Christmas, the Assumption and All Saints Day) do not get transferred - unless they fall on a Saturday or Monday, whereas The Epiphany, Ascension Day, and Corpus Christi do. I was surprised too to discover all this.

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :

The only problem with having a congregational Mass with hymns at Westminster Cathedral is the fact that many RCs (IME) just don't sing hymns! In those circumstances, a said Mass is probably the Better Idea.....

Whatever - it all seems to boil down to local custom as far as the C of E is concerned. We had a full house in our Lady Chapel this evening, together with priest, MC, and thurifer (Walsingham Rose incense [Big Grin]

) in the sanctuary.

We always try to keep major Holydays on the day itself, recognising the reality that there may be only a small (but perfectly-formed)congregation. These services do, however, usually result in a visitor or two from neighbouring and less enlightened parishes!

Ian J.

Posted by Liturgylover (# 15711) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
The only problem with having a congregational Mass with hymns at Westminster Cathedral is the fact that many RCs (IME) just don't sing hymns! In those circumstances, a said Mass is probably the Better Idea.....

Whatever - it all seems to boil down to local custom as far as the C of E is concerned. We had a full house in our Lady Chapel this evening, together with priest, MC, and thurifer (Walsingham Rose incense ) in the sanctuary.

We always try to keep major Holydays on the day itself, recognising the reality that there may be only a small (but perfectly-formed)congregation. These services do, however, usually result in a visitor or two from neighbouring and less enlightened parishes!

Ian J.

How lovely that you had a full house for the feast and cracked open the best incense the best incense!

Going back to Westminster Cathedral, 3 of their 5 regular Sunday masses are sung to congregational settings and include 2 hymns and resp. Psalm. Although the participation is not the best, the regulars at the front join in reasonably enthusiastically.

I have been invited to two Sung Eucharists tomorrow and am looking forward.

Posted by Thurible (# 3206) on :

The feasts that get transferred to Sunday are feasts of the Lord, which is why our Roman brethren are celebrating today - along with our sensible Anglican brethren. We, of course, are not sensible.

Thurible

[ 15. August 2013, 09:27: Message edited by: Thurible ]

Posted by Forthview (# 12376) on :

The parish Missal which I was looking at in our parish church this morning indicated :

'in certain territories the Assumption can be transferred to the following Sunday.If it falls on a Sunday it displaces the Sunday in Ordinary Time.'

Of course the Solemnity is linked with the 15th August and in most European countries if it is neither a public holiday nor a Holyday of Obligation, it is still celebrated in the liturgy of the day.

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Liturgylover:
do not get transferred - unless they fall on a Saturday or Monday,

Do you know why? What's so special about Saturdays and Mondays?

Posted by Forthview (# 12376) on :

The reason for this change in the RC church in England is so as not to ask the faithful to attend church two days in succession.

By attending Mass after 12 noon one could put forward the argument that one has fulfilled any obligation for the following day.

In the RC church in Scotland Holydays of Obligation falling on Sa turdays or Mondays are kept without the obligation.

Posted by Fr Weber (# 13472) on :

quote:
Originally posted by leo:

quote:
Originally posted by Liturgylover:
do not get transferred - unless they fall on a Saturday or Monday,
Do you know why? What's so special about Saturdays and Mondays?

They're close enough to Sunday that going two consecutive days to church might make your neighbors think you're actually serious about religion.

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

I imagine the Saturday/Monday thing is to do with Holy Days of Obligation, now RCs have Saturday evening masses.

If someone is use to going on Saturday evening to fulfill their Sunday obligation, then if the Saturday evening mass is of the solemnity, then they will only have fulfilled the obligation for the holy day, and need to go again on Sunday to fulfill that.

I think the idea of obligation is a good one, but this does show it up.

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