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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: One in 3 women are abused worldwide
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Good stuff, Kelly. Just one point about anxiety. In my experience, this is highly contagious. So, one thing that happens is that as women open up about their experience of being abused, their anxiety (and anger, of course), is expressed; and men pick it up. Now, men start getting anxious, both about being abused - as this is highly counter-cultural (big sissy), and as being abusive. Hence men start interrupting. Their anxiety is unknown mainly to themselves unfortunately, I think (unconscious).
I said to Erroneous Monk earlier, that domestic violence courses tend to be single sex, as the danger is of restimulating people - same thing really.
I suppose that's why women have women's groups; men are lagging really.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Damn, missed the deadline - I also think you are right, that men are trying to reimpose their dominance. Maybe I am.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Damn, missed the deadline - I also think you are right, that men are trying to reimpose their dominance. Maybe I am.
Er, no.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Good stuff, Kelly. Just one point about anxiety. In my experience, this is highly contagious. So, one thing that happens is that as women open up about their experience of being abused, their anxiety (and anger, of course), is expressed; and men pick it up. Now, men start getting anxious, both about being abused - as this is highly counter-cultural (big sissy), and as being abusive. Hence men start interrupting. Their anxiety is unknown mainly to themselves unfortunately, I think (unconscious).
I said to Erroneous Monk earlier, that domestic violence courses tend to be single sex, as the danger is of restimulating people - same thing really.
I suppose that's why women have women's groups; men are lagging really.
Boy, do I agree.
This is the thing-- because the anxiety is unconscious, and therefore unexpressed, it very often winds up projected. Thus instead of "that really makes me, personally, anxious!" it becomes "You're attacking me![or all men]"
I agree that groups of men supporting each other in discussing these matters will help.
[ 17. July 2013, 20:44: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Damn, missed the deadline - I also think you are right, that men are trying to reimpose their dominance. Maybe I am.
Er, no.
I certainly don't think all men put dominance as top priority. I certainly do think everybody who has human DNA gets into unnecessary dominance battles from time to time.I just think that there is a kind of canon of misogynist rhetoric that acts as the equivalent of a tourist phrasebook for sexism, that makes it easier for the man inclined toward dominance to exhaust a problematic woman into submission. And that this canon is thousands of years in the making.
There is probably a similar "phrasebook" for feminist rhetoric, but IME all it takes it the application of "man-hater!" to give someone the excuse to dismiss it.And feminists simply do not have as extensive a canon to fight the other one yet.
[ 17. July 2013, 21:05: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Damn, missed the deadline - I also think you are right, that men are trying to reimpose their dominance. Maybe I am.
Er, no.
I certainly don't think all men put dominance as top priority. I certainly do think everybody who has human DNA gets into unnecessary dominance battles from time to time.I just think that there is a kind of canon of mysogynist rhetoric that acts as the equivalent of a tourist phrasebook for sexism, that makes it easier for the man inclined toward dominance to exhaust a problematic woman into submission. And that this canon is thousands of years in the making.
There is probably a similar "phrasebook" for feminist rhetoric, but IME all it takes it the application of "man-hater!" to give someone the excuse to dismiss it.And feminists simply do not have as extensive a canon to fight the other one yet.
Seriously, I think there's an awful lot of unwarranted shoe-horning of comments in order to fit a single, accepted narrative here.
Some men aren't interested in 'dominance'. Some men don't get 'anxious' about domestic abuse being discussed. When there's a discussion going on on a public message board, we're not 'interrupting'. We're not in denial about the level of male on female violence. We're not calling you men-haters.
If we're going to, as a society, work together to reduce the unacceptable level of domestic abuse, talking past men and projecting motives on them... well, I'm not saying that nothing's going to happen because I'm pretty certain that every man who's commented here hates domestic abuse and will challenge it at every opportunity. But it seems entirely counterproductive.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
When there's a discussion going on on a public message board, we're not 'interrupting'.
Did I say I was talking about anyone on this thread? queztalcoatl used the word, I just picked up on it.
quote:
We're not in denial about the level of male on female violence. We're not calling you men-haters.
Did I say anybody on this thread did? I was making a general comment addressing the idea of "the canon of rhetoric." That phrase is part of it.
I kind of think I am bending over backward to send the message that I don't think all men are alike, but it is hard to keep that stance when it goes unnoticed.
[ 17. July 2013, 21:47: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
Also:
Some men aren't interested in 'dominance'.
That's exactly what I said.
Some men don't get 'anxious' about domestic abuse being discussed.
Is it permissible for me to answer quetzalcoatl when he offers the opinion that some men do? And if not, why is this comment not being addressed to him, as he introduced the idea?
[ 17. July 2013, 21:46: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
And is it permissible for me to roll up some general comments about things said on the thread?
Perhaps I should have made it clearer that not all the comments were specifically directed at you, Kelly.
However, the overall impression of this (and other times I've seen discussions on gender issues) is that either we stick to the agreed narrative, or we can butt out.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
What is the narrative?
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
The Statistics Canada data in this link says women outnumber men as victims of abuse by 9 to 1. It's the first one ixquick.com produced for me.
I'm not going to do all the research for those of you who haven't done a little online searching. It is worth mentioning that there are definitional problems with the word "abuse", in that this may refer to name calling, pushing, hitting, sexual assault, hitting, depending on the data collection. If we go to studies and collection of data where physical violence occurs, women > men as victims. I'm sure it can be found that there is an exception. There are also issues of men violent to men, but that is not what the topic is. The topic is that the epidemiology of violence toward women is very troubling in its frequency.
If you want sources, you may go and find them fellow travellers.
But no, spouse on spouse or gender neutral language will not do, in this discussion. It sounds nice. But, to compare, just because some people say race is not relevant, because it is, it is. The same way the gender stats are indeed relevant.
[ 18. July 2013, 02:38: Message edited by: no prophet ]
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
Ron - I agree that there are difficulties with using outlying events such as murder, but (a) that's what I could find, and (b) more importantly, I understand that police now view domestic violence as more important than it was viewed in the past because it can be an indicator of the way a relationship is going along what is seen as a continuum, and they would like to prevent murder. I would not have presented the stats without that connection.
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Gwai
Shipmate
# 11076
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
However, the overall impression of this (and other times I've seen discussions on gender issues) is that either we stick to the agreed narrative, or we can butt out.
And feminism is still a thing because it is not particularly rare for women to feel that all of life works that way. I generally have privilege and am not particularly picked on, but I think certainly we all have been trained to be biased. When I am dressed nicely for work and try to walk quickly through the crowd from the train up the stairs to catch my bus, people don't get out of my way. Normal, since I'm not the Queen, and why should they. Except that they do get out of the way of the well-dressed white guys who bustle just the same way. Doesn't bother me because I don't think anyone has the right to expect that, but I find it rather telling.
[ 18. July 2013, 13:59: Message edited by: Gwai ]
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A master of men was the Goodly Fere,
A mate of the wind and sea.
If they think they ha’ slain our Goodly Fere
They are fools eternally.
Posts: 11914 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:
And feminism is still a thing because it is not particularly rare for women to feel that all of life works that way. I generally have privilege and am not particularly picked on, but I think certainly we all have been trained to be biased. When I am dressed nicely for work and try to walk quickly through the crowd from the train up the stairs to catch my bus, people don't get out of my way. Normal, since I'm not the Queen, and why should they. Except that they do get out of the way of the well-dressed white guys who bustle just the same way. Doesn't bother me because I don't think anyone has the right to expect that, but I find it rather telling.
Agreed. When I wear a necktie, it makes a large difference. And I do wear one daily to work. I am using what you observe all the time, to my advantage.
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Cod
Shipmate
# 2643
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
You can also work out statistics in non-war situations. I have seen stats that 1 in 4 women is abused in the UK for example. Also, 1 in 6 men.
Another stat that ties in with this is from the British Crime Survey, which found that 60% of domestic (physical) violence was perpetrated by men and 40% by women. I think the stats were closer in terms of violence against children, but I can't recollect precisely.
Posts: 4229 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Apr 2002
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Honest Ron Bacardi
Shipmate
# 38
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
Ron - I agree that there are difficulties with using outlying events such as murder, but (a) that's what I could find, and (b) more importantly, I understand that police now view domestic violence as more important than it was viewed in the past because it can be an indicator of the way a relationship is going along what is seen as a continuum, and they would like to prevent murder. I would not have presented the stats without that connection.
No disagreement there, Penny S - to be honest I just added that point as another thing to watch about interpreting the statistics.
no prophet wrote quote:
The Statistics Canada data in this link says women outnumber men as victims of abuse by 9 to 1. It's the first one ixquick.com produced for me.
Maybe I can explain what is going on with a personal comment. For some years - back in the 90's - I used to do a bit of work such as fundraising for the local women's shelter. It runs as an independent charity but the work is overseen by the local district council who provide phoneline advice guidance as well as legal advice.
At one of their annual review meetings, somebody just in passing asked the local council liaison officer "what about men?". She replied that in the 4 or 5 years she had been doing the job, they had only a single call from a male suffering domestic violence. So far as the helpline was concerned, violence towards males practically did not exist. However, it was known from hospital A&E statistics that this did not represent the situation on the ground. These tend to show that people turning up at A&E as a result of domestic violence are usually somewhere around the ratio of 2:1 (F:M). That was the first time I was made aware of this issue, and have been trying to follow it on and off ever since. To be honest, till then I was blissfully unaware of domestic violence on males.
The problem with the reference you cited was that it summarises a work from 1998 which is based on police statistics - quote:
Statistics Canada's 1998 report Family Violence in Canada: A Statistical Profile, which analysed data provided by 154 reporting police agencies, shows that:
- women continue to outnumber men nine to one as victims of assault by a spouse or partner;
I know it was thought as recently as the 90's (though 1998 is a bit late for that sort of comment) that police statistics represented the state of things on the ground. But police stats are "top down" in the sense that they are reported cases that have actually been logged by the authorities. As has been commented, there is a major problem in the way men see violence - in this case towards themselves, but it is indicative of the much wider problem that several other shipmates have been trying to point towards recently.
If you want to know the prevalence of domestic violence in the community, you need to take a different approach, more "bottom-up", where you go out and ask a sample of society what their actual experience is. That is true for both women and men.
The UK version of this is the Annual Crime survey, which Cod just alluded to. Such surveys are massively expensive, as you need a sample of tens to hundreds of thousands of people to get answers on some things, and the subsample needs to be demographically representative. But they are a real eye-opener (in fact the most recent one was published this morning). They were originally established because of the growing awareness that police statistics rarely represent the situation on the ground, though I don't think domestic violence was specifically in view when the UK one was set up.
If you do this, you tend to get figures of around 3:2 (F:M) reporting domestic violence, which is not way out of line with the the hospital admission stats.
There is a further stage you can take this, which is to interview couples reporting domestic violence and talk them through how it all kicked off, with a view to getting an agreement on "who strted this?". That's also difficult, but there's quite a famous Canadian study which I think was the first to try this, and found roughly 50:50 (F:M). Other studies have repeated this and found the results are highly sensitive to questioning and environment, but they mostly tend to suggest the same thing.
The point here is not to somehow prove that women are as bad as men taken on average, which most of us have guessed for quite a while, but rather to show how societal perceptions of violence can be warped. It's all part of the same attitudinal problem that Kelly Alves outlined earlier (here, if I can get the link to work).
[ 18. July 2013, 20:45: Message edited by: Honest Ron Bacardi ]
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Anglo-Cthulhic
Posts: 4857 | From: the corridors of Pah! | Registered: May 2001
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Honest Ron Bacardi:
The point here is not to somehow prove that women are as bad as men taken on average, which most of us have guessed for quite a while, but rather to show how societal perceptions of violence can be warped. It's all part of the same attitudinal problem that Kelly Alves outlined earlier (here, if I can get the link to work).
That's a nice concise way to put it, Ron.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Evangeline
Shipmate
# 7002
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Posted
I don't want to derail the more constructive tone this thread has taken but I don't want to be seen to be ignoring questions either so:
Dinghy sailor, I have done sufficient research and reading on this topic in the recent past to justify to my own satisfaction the assertions that I made. I have no problem with you asking for data/proof of this for the purposes of discussion but I found your accusations of malice and the tone of your posts unnecessarily aggressive (which is why I responded with the flippant check your privilege comment.) In post after post you continue to attack me on the technicality that my first post was anecdotal and continue to ignore any data subsequently provided. It is pointlessly repetitive.
I don't think anything I say will convince you that I have read and seen a lot of statistics over the years that make me believe men abuse more than women do. I have no intention of trying to do a meta-analysis of all the studies that touch upon this topic and justify my beliefs here. By all means if you want to do so to prove me wrong, go right ahead and I will change my mind if there is evidence for your position. You feel I'm accusing all men of being abusers or having a tendency for abuse and that upsets you-ok I get that. I feel that you (and others) are justifying/ minimising the abuse of women on the basis that it's some natural human tendency and women do it too or would do it if they had economic power. That upsets me.
Marvin by recognising and facing up to the fact that men are more likely to abuse than women I hope that something constructive can be done to help women stop being victims and men stop being perpetrators. Obscuring this so-called factoid behind irrelevant supposition about women being potential abusers if they held economic power is dangerous IMO because it distracts attention from the message that abuse is unacceptable and must be stopped.
DocTor, to the best of my knowledge there is no link I can provide to a peer reviewed journal that provides a pat answer to the question of whether women would physically abuse people who are dependent upon them as much as men do. As I said to Dinghy I have no intention of trying to write a literature review on all the data and stats out there that justify the conclusions I've come to. THe link I provided is accessible and provides a useful summary of data, if you want to disprove it and provide alternate data, go right ahead.
Quetzolcoti, I freely admit that my first post was not data, I never said it was. Oh and while you're at it you state this as though it's fact without any support
quote:
For example, in the UK, as a male, I am more likely to be the victim of violent crime than a woman, (excluding sexual violence), more likely to be killed via homicide, and more likely to commit suicide. Women are more likely to be victims of sexual assault and domestic abuse.
There are of course many other factors, for example, age seems important, so old people are much less likely to be victims of violence than young people.
What do your unsubstantiated stats say about the likelihood of being the perpetrator of a crime based on your gender? Why is it ok to talk about the likelihood of being a victim but not a perpetrator of crime? Why is nobody jumping up and down demanding a source for the data and saying "oh but women would be just as likely to be killed in a football brawl if it was socially acceptable for them to like football"? or accusing you of hurling malicious accusations that men are natural victims of violent crime. It seems there's a very different approach to discussion depending on who and what is making assertions.
Posts: 2871 | From: "A capsule of modernity afloat in a wild sea" | Registered: May 2004
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Well, I approached it that way round, (from the point of view of men being abused), as the OP seems to be focusing on women being abused.
I agree, that research and education should also focus on males as perpetrators. Well, I've worked with quite a few men who were abusive/violent, and looking into their souls is something else, and often surprising. OK, going o/t.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Dinghy Sailor
Ship's Jibsheet
# 8507
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evangeline:
Dinghy sailor, I have done sufficient research and reading on this topic in the recent past to justify to my own satisfaction the assertions that I made. I have no problem with you asking for data/proof of this for the purposes of discussion but I found your accusations of malice and the tone of your posts unnecessarily aggressive (which is why I responded with the flippant check your privilege comment.) In post after post you continue to attack me on the technicality that my first post was anecdotal and continue to ignore any data subsequently provided. It is pointlessly repetitive.
The point is that you thought it was okay to make those sorts accusations based on no data. It's not and nothing you subsequently provide can make it okay. Is sorry such a hard word to say?
quote:
I feel that you (and others) are justifying/ minimising the abuse of women on the basis that it's some natural human tendency and women do it too or would do it if they had economic power. That upsets me.
If I weren't about to go away for a few days, I'd call you to hell on this. It's precisely because I and others take violence against women seriously that we don't like your carefree approach to the facts. But no, apparently we must be justifying violence against women. Words fail me.
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Preach Christ, because this old humanity has used up all hopes and expectations, but in Christ hope lives and remains.
Dietrich Bonhoeffer
Posts: 2821 | Registered: Sep 2004
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Oh shit, this thread lurches from being constructive, to being aggressive and combative. I suppose it's inevitable.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Dinghy Sailor
Ship's Jibsheet
# 8507
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Posted
Oh, everyone else on here is being sensible. As you were ...
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Preach Christ, because this old humanity has used up all hopes and expectations, but in Christ hope lives and remains.
Dietrich Bonhoeffer
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Well, just being sensible would be unreal. There's tons of fear and anger and guilt about this stuff, it's just really hard to talk about it, without acting it out.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
We should be talking about violence and abuse, and we should be seeking to prevent it and change the culture that allows and causes it. But we should be doing so for all violence and abuse, not just one subset thereof.
Except the subject of the OP is "violence against women."
it's like someone saying, "Hey, let's put together a lecture honoring women in sports." and someone at the back saying, "Hey, there's lots of men in sports! Lots of them!"
Is it that difficult to spend a little time allowing a discussion about the experiences of women to happen?
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Is it that difficult to spend a little time allowing a discussion about the experiences of women to happen?
It appears so. As Dinghy Sailor's last response indicates, some men are being defensive. And some women (And some men) are guilty of going too far to appear balanced.
ETA: Gender balance
[ 19. July 2013, 18:19: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
Oh, this?
quote:
Originally posted by Dinghy Sailor:
Oh, everyone else on here is being sensible. As you were ...
Good start, but it would be nice if people would start engaging with what the sensible people are saying. (and I see no gender monopoly on sensible, at the moment.)
It's like hyperbole versus hyperbole, and the moderate people are crawling around under the artillery blast.
[ 19. July 2013, 19:03: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
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Honest Ron Bacardi
Shipmate
# 38
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Posted
Kelly - I've been giving your proposal for considering victimisation as a way of examining this issue, with a view to maybe suggesting a way to take it forward. I wonder if you would like to consider a suggestion - just in terms of structuring things, before anyone tries to load up any more ideas.
(Goes to virual flipchart and turns over a new page)
Draw a circle A. Draw another circle B. Now draw a large oval round both circles. Label the area inside the oval C, and the area outside the oval D.
A is factors relating to the woman. B is factors relating to the man. C will be issues relating to their intimate relationship. D will cover issues concerning external factors.
I am assuming that if a woman becomes a victim, something by definition has gone wrong. We have already had a number of suggestions - for example, Penny S's early suggestion that males experiencing domestic violence by adult males when they are children may go on to model that behaviour when the are adults - that I would put under B.
The advantage of putting some structure to this is that it forces us to ask questions we may not otherwise see.
But it's just a suggestion and it's your shout. Any comments welcome.
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Anglo-Cthulhic
Posts: 4857 | From: the corridors of Pah! | Registered: May 2001
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Honest Ron Bacardi
Shipmate
# 38
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Posted
PS - it goes without saying that this covers only intimate partner violence. Violence external to this relationship won't be covered, nor will same-sex intimate partner violence. Not because I don't think those things are important, but as a starting point, this should cover the majority of cases for most women.
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Anglo-Cthulhic
Posts: 4857 | From: the corridors of Pah! | Registered: May 2001
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
I am quite content with people loading up their ideas. I was just expressing mine, in the hopes that articulating them would spark ideas in other folk.
In other words-- Naw! Ain't gonna do a flowchart! ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
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Honest Ron Bacardi
Shipmate
# 38
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Posted
No flowcharts! It was just an idea to get people thinking about things they might overlook.
F'rexample - we might go from male experience of childhood abuse being normative for some adults, and ask if there may be a similar thing at work with women who experience violence as children. I've no idea if there is any effect but it might be worth a look. etc. etc.
But as I say it was just an idea and I'm happy to drop it.
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Anglo-Cthulhic
Posts: 4857 | From: the corridors of Pah! | Registered: May 2001
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
Ron, I don't think that was me. But it's been a long thread, so an easy mistake.
Posts: 5833 | Registered: May 2009
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
Are we going to receive hand-outs of this flow chart? With some space at the side to take notes? ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
We also need some addenda, they always add a kind of magic sparkly dust to the proceedings.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Honest Ron Bacardi
Shipmate
# 38
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
Ron, I don't think that was me. But it's been a long thread, so an easy mistake.
Sorry. It was - er - me. I was following up on a post of yours though, hence the (mis)attribution.
As for the rest of you - well, b*gger you lot! That's the last time I try a joke to lighten the atmosphere. Bah humbug etc.
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Anglo-Cthulhic
Posts: 4857 | From: the corridors of Pah! | Registered: May 2001
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
(FWIW I was just kidding. I think there were actually some good ideas in what you said.)
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
However, the overall impression of this (and other times I've seen discussions on gender issues) is that either we stick to the agreed narrative, or we can butt out.
And feminism is still a thing because it is not particularly rare for women to feel that all of life works that way.
This reminded me of the above exchange, and our "canon of rhetoric" discussion. Here is a great example of the kind of thing I meant when I was talking about a "canon of rhetoric" that squelches women's attempts to describe their own experience.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
However, the overall impression of this (and other times I've seen discussions on gender issues) is that either we stick to the agreed narrative, or we can butt out.
And feminism is still a thing because it is not particularly rare for women to feel that all of life works that way.
This reminded me of the above exchange, and our "canon of rhetoric" discussion. Here is a great example of the kind of thing I meant when I was talking about a "canon of rhetoric" that squelches women's attempts to describe their own experience.
I saw Jim's post, and yes, it's true. It's also true that when one of my writing colleagues went off message, she got a massive and messy twitter slapdown - a woman attempting to describe her own experience, being attacked for doing so by social justice bloggers, because she wasn't sticking to the agreed narrative.
The subject is simply too toxic to discuss on the internet.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Huia
Shipmate
# 3473
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Posted
Kelly - thanks for that strip. When I was raped and decided not to report it to the police I got that comment about being responsible for any subsequent rapes the man might commit, from a supposedly caring person.
While I knew I had good reasons for my decision, that comment caused me a lot of anguish for a while.
Huia
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Charity gives food from the table, Justice gives a place at the table.
Posts: 10382 | From: Te Wai Pounamu | Registered: Oct 2002
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
I saw Jim's post, and yes, it's true. It's also true that when one of my writing colleagues went off message, she got a massive and messy twitter slapdown - a woman attempting to describe her own experience, being attacked for doing so by social justice bloggers, because she wasn't sticking to the agreed narrative.
The subject is simply too toxic to discuss on the internet.
I don't know about Twitter-- but Twitter is , y'know, Twittery-- but the link you provided seems to indicate a huge amount of cross-gender solidarity and encouragement. It was kind of uplifting, if you'll forgive me.
It looks like two or three negative comments were blocked/ hidden but two or three comments hardly constitutes a narrative, and as many men complain they wish women would acknowledged the honorable men out there, I am saddened you, Dor Tor, ignore the camaraderie I clearly see for--well whatever it is you didn't link. I would happily game with any of those guys**,and cheer the author of the piece for giving a positive example of how it could be.
The one post that made me wonder what happened on Twitter was this:
quote:
An impressions seems to be being created across lots of hobbies that hold cons that they’re somehow unsafe for women which puts female attendees off, then those same events are blamed for not having more female attendees.
It’s ‘whack’.
This bugged me,in that it seemed that the poster was moving subtly from "It's good to hear that women have postive experiences in Cons*" to saying "Don't talk about skeevy guys at Con because it makes the rest of us look bad." If enough of those kind of comments came up, I can see a certain type of woman losing patience.
I agree that the fact that women seem, on the most part, to mingle comfortably at Cons is a great thing, but it serves no one to tell the girls who get targeted by abuse that they can't talk about it. Both experiences are true.
*(for the record, one of those women would me me-- in my six years of gaming I only encountered one real skeeve, and he was booted out of two games for being skeevy. All the real misogyny I experienced was in my ex-husband's living room, via three of his friends.And I was less traumatized by the idiotic behavior of said idiots than by the craven silence of the guys who witnessed it, and who I knew were way better than that.)
**(especially this guy--"The bottom line is: if we watch out for her other, and care about each other, predators and fucksticks will have a much harder time getting away with their ugly dogshit. A community without awesome women in it — and which does not respect those awesome women — is a community I’d want nothing to do with. Which is to say: THE ASSHOLES CAN’T HAVE IT."
Hell.Yes.)
[ 13. August 2013, 02:38: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
Kelly - it's difficult to link to twitter comments, because, you know, twitter. The comments on Sarah's page were mostly excellent, and knowing her, I don't think she moderated any of them (she is indeed, A Force of Nature ![[Smile]](smile.gif) ).
But she had a whole bunch of comments attacking her for being white, privileged, cisgendered, disrupting the conversation, diminishing the problem of male violence, attacking the victims and being a gender traitor. Obviously, she was, er, robust in her own defence, but what happened to her falls cleanly into a pattern that's arisen over the last few years.
SFF cons aren't even a world I know particularly well - I attended, at the behest of my publisher, my first Eastercon in 2010, and as an unassuming-looking, straight, white male, I'm not going to encounter much, if any, sexual abuse directed at me. I am aware, however, that some serious incidents have taken place (and still take place) and in the past, they haven't been dealt with at all well, if at all. And that being a female con-attender carries with it risks that as a male con-attender I simply don't have to deal with. Even now, with a modicum of notoriety, I don't feel at all threatened when an embarrassed fanboy/girl gushes (and I do it to my heroes too) their admiration for my literary oeuvre.
Given all that, the narrative has grown that cons are a hot-bed of sexual abuse, that women con-goers should expect to be abused and take all precautions against it, and that male con-goers simply can't control themselves. In that context, Sarah's blogpost was deliberately aimed to undermine that narrative. And she caught a world of pain for it.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
Hm. OK, I'm beginning to paint a little picture in my head. Basically, fuck Twitter.
I wonder if it is a bit of a pendulum swinging too far thing, though-- maybe the hysteria (and I know that's a sexist word, but if what you are describing happened, it sure fits) comes from experiencing or witnessing too many incidents where women tried to speak up about this kind of stuff and got shouted down. My hunch is that if the sensible people patiently work around the hysteria, the pendulum will reorient itself to somewhere more neutral.
So while I think your friend should be nothing but encouraged to celebrate those gaming men who treat their sister-in-dice as colleagues and compatriots- yes, please, more more more--we in the gaming community need to make sure that is not sued as evidence again ts the women who have experienced bad stufff.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
(Anecdotally, from longer serving fans, the UK is better than the US, but how much better and from what base is moot.)
I can believe that. ISTM that American misogyny leaning guys are much louder about protecting their privilege, and much more inclined to see boorishness as male prerogative. As evidence I invite you to Google "American radio morning shows."
Without taking back what I said about my general experience in cons, I can also say that I don't feel I really knew what the term "misogyny" meant until I became a gamer. That was the first time I met men who seemed to genuinely get off on making other women uncomfortable, and (Here's the real problem, I feel) men who were equally uncomfortable, but for some reason didn't have the stones to speak up and say, "Enough." The only evidence I had for a long time of anyone's disapproval was quietly whispered post game things like "Don't let X get to you, he only talks about wet pussy to get a rise out of you." Any attempt by women to set boundaries lead to immediate rebuke-- of the women. Those incidents happened in private homes, among (boy, what generous word I am about to use ) friends.What killed me is that all of the women in the group had been dragged there by their boyfriends, who expected their partners to adapt themselves to their gaming lifestyle, whatever their own interests might be.
And even the nicest of these guys shared the same weird trait-- when the women did get enthused- because gaming is fun, dammit-- and began creating kick ass characters, the guys would suddenly want to switch modules to one the women had never played. It was like they wanted us there, but always two steps behind.
OK, following my own advice, I will now relate the most awesome gaming story in my repertoire. One of the guys in our group wanted to run Shadowrun, and the pre-designed story he wanted to run began with a gang rape that we (a group of cops) were to encounter, He pulled the two women at that game aside ahead of time, and explained what was coming. He said if the motif bothered us at all he would alter it a bit. Because of his sensitivity, we trusted him enough to give him the green light.
So he sat down, and began leading us through the game. "Ok you guys are patrolling the street, and you look down an alley to see four teenage boys raping a girl."
Player Josh:"I get in line."
The other woman and I got up and walked out. My husband said nothing, I remember looking up at one of the guys in the group and hearing him say to me! "Oh come on! and angrily sighing. As we left the room we heard the book slam, but we pretty much thought we'd been successfully bullied out of the game.
Two minutes later Josh came in and mumbled one of those "I'm sorry if I caused offense" kind of apologies. We accepted (such as we could) but declined to return to the game.
Two minutes later the GM (Brian)came back. He was spitting mad. "Did he apologize?" he said, "Because I refuse to run the game unless he apologized."
So, according to my ex, that slam we heard was Brian slamming the book hard and saying, "That's it, game over."
And basically, one story like that can heal so much. I hardly ever think about Josh anymore, but I grew to really love Brian.
(The above is an accidental edit by Kelly Alves, and she composed all of the text except the portion quoted from Doc Tor.)
[ 13. August 2013, 22:47: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
DAMN!
Sorry, Doc Tor, I accidentally hit "edit" instead of "quote."
PM me what you wrote and I will undo the damage.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Hmmmm that, for a second, expanded my view of Doc Tor.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
I was wondering which of my wise ass Admin buddies screwed with my sig.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
DAMN!
Sorry, Doc Tor, I accidentally hit "edit" instead of "quote."
PM me what you wrote and I will undo the damage.
You rolled a 1: critical miss
(the substantive part was simply a "hell yes" to the notion it's everyone's job to make sure Cons and gaming environments are harassment-free)
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
Also - never, ever, ever encountered a scenario like that in the decade I regularly gamed, in mixed groups. Damn...
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
You rolled a 1: critical miss
Equal parts ![[Razz]](tongue.gif) and ![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Also - never, ever, ever encountered a scenario like that in the decade I regularly gamed, in mixed groups. Damn...
Welcome to the teeming world of wildlife that lives under the pretty moss-covered log that is gaming. ( I will say the guys that pull this kind of stunt are the kind of gamer you run into that makes you go,"Damn! This is the kind of freak Rona Jaffe was writing about!" In other words, their expressed attitudes toward women are merely one example of a general disconnect from reality.)
But perhaps that's part of the point-- how can you all help out with situations you haven't heard about? It's not so much the ladies blame you as they are counting on you.(I'll assume everyone is up to snuff, post-wise.)
[ 13. August 2013, 22:07: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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