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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: One in 3 women are abused worldwide
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no prophet's flag is set so...
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# 15560
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Posted
The UN released a report with the 1 in 3 statistic. I'm quoting Al Jazeera below (are they the new BBC? they sure sound like them), and there are many more links about it via duckduckgo.com*.
So I ask, are 30% of men absolute jerks and worthy of prosecution? Is there any hope for us men?
I would like to hear from everyone, female, male and other on this. But my question is also directed to myself, where I ask, is there something about us, the male gender, that promotes us to be violent? Is the problem male violence, or is the problem violence pure and simple?
My response: I broke a boy's nose when I was 12. I have had mad murderous fantasies about those who have been violent with me and to others I love. I have been diligent about controlling my emotions because I see too clearly that I could experience rage in a way that would lead to violence. I do experience anger all to frequently. I think it more a male issue than a female issue, this violence, and I wish it weren't.
quote:
Al Jazeera reported (link):
In what it billed as the first-ever systematic study of global data on the prevalence of violence against women and its health impact, the UN agency said on Thursday that 30 percent worldwide faced such abuse at the hands of their partners.
...highest in Asia... 37.7 percent
Next was the Middle East... 37 percent.
Sub-Saharan Africa ... 36.6 percent.
23.2 percent of high-income countries including North America, the European Union, Japan, South Korea, Australia and New Zealand.
These data really show the tremendous toll violence has on the health of women
*duckduckgo - a no-tracking, NSA-free search engine, I'd have said googlenet in the past.
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Fineline
Shipmate
# 12143
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
The UN released a report with the 1 in 3 statistic. I'm quoting Al Jazeera below (are they the new BBC? they sure sound like them), and there are many more links about it via duckduckgo.com*.
So I ask, are 30% of men absolute jerks and worthy of prosecution? Is there any hope for us men?
Well, it doesn't say that the abusers are all males. Females can abuse too.
Posts: 2375 | From: England | Registered: Dec 2006
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Honest Ron Bacardi
Shipmate
# 38
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Posted
no prophet wrote: quote:
The UN released a report with the 1 in 3 statistic. I'm quoting Al Jazeera below (are they the new BBC? they sure sound like them), and there are many more links about it via duckduckgo.com*.
So I ask, are 30% of men absolute jerks and worthy of prosecution? Is there any hope for us men?
I would have thought you would be lucky to find 30% of men were not jerks. Though for a range of reasons that extends beyond the ones considered here.
However, two things -
1. This is a report about violence against women. You can't infer anything beyond the subject examined by the report. To do that you will need to look at other papers. I refer particularly of course to data on F on M violence. The report may also include F on F violence, though I would need to read the original report to know if that was so.
2. Violent abusers are frequently serial abusers, so inferring a 1:1 partner correspondence (abuser:abused) is highly problematic. I don't think I've ever seen statistics that try to work out the proportion of either sex who are or have been violent towards their partners, though the information is surely out there somewhere. Maybe someone else can help you with that one.
But the fact remains that all domestic violence, of every type, is almost certainly under-recorded, and tackling violence against women must be top priority, most especially in those patriarchal situations where there is little chance of external help without further awareness and education.
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Anglo-Cthulhic
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no prophet's flag is set so...
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# 15560
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Posted
The point is that we have, worldwide, a culture of violence against women.
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Honest Ron Bacardi
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# 38
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Posted
In this case I'm not sure that's a helpful expression. "Culture" generally refers to non-material things to be expected within a given society. That's undoubtedly true in some societies, but it is also the case that women suffer violence in societies that are opposed to it. You can see that sort of thing in the statistics for different countries.
To say it is a culture of violence is problematic, because it only addresses part of the problem.
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Anglo-Cthulhic
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
It's probably safe to assume that an adult male who abuses one female is abusing others at the same time--daughters, sisters, mother, employees. Add in the serial aspect, and you can probably lower the percentage of violent males quite a bit.
As for why it happens, I suspect it's because it CAN. Most men are stronger and larger than most women, particularly those they live with. And I suspect hormones come into play somehow, just judging by the gender skew for violent criminals. But I don't know enough to say just how. Probably very complicated.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
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Huia
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# 3473
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Posted
I heard that news item too no prophet, with sadness, but no great surprise. I think that some men are walking disaster areas for women with whom they come into contact, but I would not put the overall figure as high as 30%, but rather there is a group of men who are serial abusers.
I am not excusing or minimising male violence, but when I read the OP I thought about my own revenge fantasies, particularly towards the man who raped me - nothing was bad enough, but they burnt out after a while, particularly as there were and are good men in my life.
I think too that there is a difference between feeling anger and being violent, although in the heat of the moment the switch can happen in the blink of an eye. Nevertheless, I don't think it's the anger so much as what we do with it that causes the problems.
Huia
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Charity gives food from the table, Justice gives a place at the table.
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The5thMary
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# 12953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fineline:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
The UN released a report with the 1 in 3 statistic. I'm quoting Al Jazeera below (are they the new BBC? they sure sound like them), and there are many more links about it via duckduckgo.com*.
So I ask, are 30% of men absolute jerks and worthy of prosecution? Is there any hope for us men?
Well, it doesn't say that the abusers are all males. Females can abuse too.
Yeah, unfortunately I was abused by two of my (crazy) ex-girlfriends. When I had various stays at domestic violence shelters in the Seattle area, the heterosexual women were always taken aback that I had been abused by a woman. "But women DON'T abuse other women!". Why, yes, they do. I have the PTSD to prove it. ![[Waterworks]](graemlins/bawling.gif)
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God gave me my face but She let me pick my nose.
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
The point is that we have, worldwide, a culture of violence against women.
The last two words of that post are redundant.
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Hail Gallaxhar
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wishandaprayer
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# 17673
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
The last two words of that post are redundant.
Thank you Marvin.
This is the point - I believe in 2012 of all homicides, around 75% were men and 25% were women. We can take any statistic and make it suit our social agenda (maybe the male headship crowd could use the one I just quoted). The fact is - all violence is deplorable; so what can we do about it?
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
I read yesterday, two heart-breaking accounts of domestic violence from two writer colleagues. Both suffered the same pattern of verbal and physical abuse following a gradual undermining of their sense of self and separation from friends and family. One victim was female, the other male. You could have pretty much filed the names off and swapped the accounts.
The amount of domestic abuse is ... awful. And it's not gender-specific. A vanishingly small number of men would ever admit to being abused by their partners.
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Forward the New Republic
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Adeodatus
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# 4992
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Posted
One thing we could begin with, in our own culture, is to use relationships education in schools to give children - both boys and girls - the confidence, proper self-esteem and life skills that will help them get out of an abusive relationship if they find themselves in one. One of the most horrible things about abusive relationships is that people stay in them.
From my own pastoral experience I'd also say that while there are certainly serial abusers, there are also serial abusees, going from one abusive relationship, to another, to another. I'm not being flippant when I say that some people seem to have an unerring talent for finding abusive partners. I can only imagine that somehow, they've been educated to believe that that is how relationships are meant to be.
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
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Plique-à-jour
Shipmate
# 17717
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fineline:
Well, it doesn't say that the abusers are all males. Females can abuse too.
quote:
Originally posted by wishandaprayer:
This is the point - I believe in 2012 of all homicides, around 75% were men and 25% were women. We can take any statistic and make it suit our social agenda (maybe the male headship crowd could use the one I just quoted).
quote:
Originally posted by Honest Ron Bacardi:
1. This is a report about violence against women. You can't infer anything beyond the subject examined by the report. To do that you will need to look at other papers. I refer particularly of course to data on F on M violence. The report may also include F on F violence, though I would need to read the original report to know if that was so.
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
Is there any hope for us men?
I would like to hear from everyone, female, male and other on this. But my question is also directed to myself, where I ask, is there something about us, the male gender, that promotes us to be violent? Is the problem male violence, or is the problem violence pure and simple?
The reason it's meaningful to talk about a culture of violence against women, and a culture of violence against women by men, is illustrated here. Shucks, maybe men are just made that way. Poor men. Some women hit men! Poor men. More men get murdered, so, y'know. Poor men. Some women hit women, how about that? It's not all mens' fault. Poor men. Poor, poor men.
Nobody here intended to defend violent men. Nobody here intended to prioritise men's self-esteem (for not being abusive! - have a cookie) over women's suffering. Nobody here intended to immediately change the subject to other kinds of violence so we wouldn't have to think about violent men's responsibility for their own actions. Nobody intended to minimise their responsibility for their own actions. Nobody intended to turn the discussion to the far more important suffering of a smaller number of men. Nobody intended to say that only those whining feminists care about this shit. That's just how it came out. That's how it always comes out. Because we have a culture of violence against women by men.
Nobody would say 'maybe white men are just made to kill black men'. Nobody would say 'maybe straight men are just made to kill gay men'. Nobody would say 'more white men get murdered than black men, so, y'know...'. But this kind of violence brings on the mysticism, the minimising, the excuse-making. The important thing is for men not to be made to feel bad about what violent men have done. The important thing is not to forget that some men have it hard. The important thing is to delay taking justice for women seriously until after we've helped the last hurt man. Because we have a culture of violence against women by men.
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
No.
But you seem to be blaming 'men' for violence against women. As a headline, that's as fine as it goes, but it's not the whole story. It's not even half the story.
I fail to see how I'm responsible for violence against women because I'm a man. It's not like men are some amorphous blob, all thinking and feeling the same. You wouldn't say "Jews" or "Blacks" in the same way you're saying "men", so knock it off.
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Forward the New Republic
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Plique-à-jour
Shipmate
# 17717
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
I fail to see how I'm responsible for violence against women because I'm a man.
I didn't say that or anything like it. Thank you for confirming what I was saying.
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Plique-à-jour:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
I fail to see how I'm responsible for violence against women because I'm a man.
I didn't say that or anything like it. Thank you for confirming what I was saying.
quote:
It's not all mens' fault. Poor men. Poor, poor men.
quote:
The important thing is for men not to be made to feel bad about what violent men have done
Did you mean these two quotes unsarcastically then?
Or alternatively, are you getting defensive because someone's dared to call you on them?
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Forward the New Republic
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lilBuddha
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# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
The amount of domestic abuse is ... awful. And it's not gender-specific. A vanishingly small number of men would ever admit to being abused by their partners.
Abuse is about power. Men are physically bigger on average and, in most cultures, have more power. So men will abuse more often.
But there is nothing inherent in gender which leads to abuse.
Funny thing, experience once made this difficulty to say; but now observation makes it all too clear.
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Hallellou, hallellou
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Plique-à-jour:
The reason it's meaningful to talk about a culture of violence against women, and a culture of violence against women by men, is illustrated here. Shucks, maybe men are just made that way. Poor men. Some women hit men! Poor men. More men get murdered, so, y'know. Poor men. Some women hit women, how about that? It's not all mens' fault. Poor men. Poor, poor men.
Nobody here intended to defend violent men. Nobody here intended to prioritise men's self-esteem (for not being abusive! - have a cookie) over women's suffering. Nobody here intended to immediately change the subject to other kinds of violence so we wouldn't have to think about violent men's responsibility for their own actions. Nobody intended to minimise their responsibility for their own actions. Nobody intended to turn the discussion to the far more important suffering of a smaller number of men. Nobody intended to say that only those whining feminists care about this shit. That's just how it came out. That's how it always comes out. Because we have a culture of violence against women by men.
Nobody would say 'maybe white men are just made to kill black men'. Nobody would say 'maybe straight men are just made to kill gay men'. Nobody would say 'more white men get murdered than black men, so, y'know...'. But this kind of violence brings on the mysticism, the minimising, the excuse-making. The important thing is for men not to be made to feel bad about what violent men have done. The important thing is not to forget that some men have it hard. The important thing is to delay taking justice for women seriously until after we've helped the last hurt man. Because we have a culture of violence against women by men.
This is what I'm trying to say. Thank-you. When people leave out the "against women" in this violence discussion, at best their thoughts are aspirational, at worst, in denial.
Yes, we're all this world and life together. The UN report is about violence against women, and it focusses on families and couples.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
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Plique-à-jour
Shipmate
# 17717
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
]This is what I'm trying to say. Thank-you. When people leave out the "against women" in this violence discussion, at best their thoughts are aspirational, at worst, in denial.
Yes, we're all this world and life together. The UN report is about violence against women, and it focusses on families and couples.
You're welcome. I'm relieved that you understood what I meant. Thank you for your concise statement of the situation.
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Abuse is about power. Men are physically bigger on average and, in most cultures, have more power.
You say that, but firstly power isn't just about strength, and secondly it's not all about culture, it's about individual relationships.
For example, most people would probably agree that Islamic culture is one that gives men pretty much all of the power. But of the married Muslim men I know, a significant proportion are not the ones who have the power in their relationships - their wives have a great deal of control over what they do, to the extent that one chap had to change jobs and move house because that was what his wife wanted. In such a relationship, who really has the power?
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Oy. Yes there are individual variations.
But what is your point? Are you saying power dynamics are completely random?
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Hallellou, hallellou
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
But what is your point? Are you saying power dynamics are completely random?
I'm saying it's not as simple as "men have power (and therefore are abusers), women don't (and therefore aren't)".
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Hail Gallaxhar
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Anglican_Brat
Shipmate
# 12349
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Posted
The Rev. Marie Fortune once said at a conference I attended that if the Church spent a tenth of the time it spent on issues such as gay marriage to discussing domestic violence, that we'll be much further along than we are.
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It's Reformation Day! Do your part to promote Christian unity and brotherly love and hug a schismatic.
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wishandaprayer
Shipmate
# 17673
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
quote:
Originally posted by Plique-à-jour:
Because we have a culture of violence against women by men.
This is what I'm trying to say. Thank-you. When people leave out the "against women" in this violence discussion, at best their thoughts are aspirational, at worst, in denial.
Yes, we're all this world and life together. The UN report is about violence against women, and it focusses on families and couples.
The point is we ALSO have a culture of violence against MEN by men. We ALSO have a culture of violence against ethnic minorities by ethnic majorities. These are facts. By focussing on one of these facts we minimize the others. I am arguing for a more rounded approach.
Are you saying that a culture of violence against women by men is worse than the other two examples?
[ 21. June 2013, 15:59: Message edited by: wishandaprayer ]
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Honest Ron Bacardi
Shipmate
# 38
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
But what is your point? Are you saying power dynamics are completely random?
I'm saying it's not as simple as "men have power (and therefore are abusers), women don't (and therefore aren't)".
I didn't read lilBuddha as saying anything as polarised as that, Marvin - simply if push comes to shove, in violence all you need is a slight edge to build on. If you're going to be violent that is.
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Anglo-Cthulhic
Posts: 4857 | From: the corridors of Pah! | Registered: May 2001
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
Of course, violence isn't the only form of abuse either...
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by wishandaprayer:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
quote:
Originally posted by Plique-à-jour:
Because we have a culture of violence against women by men.
This is what I'm trying to say. Thank-you. When people leave out the "against women" in this violence discussion, at best their thoughts are aspirational, at worst, in denial.
Yes, we're all this world and life together. The UN report is about violence against women, and it focusses on families and couples.
The point is we ALSO have a culture of violence against MEN by men. We ALSO have a culture of violence against ethnic minorities by ethnic majorities. These are facts. By focussing on one of these facts we minimize the others. I am arguing for a more rounded approach.
Are you saying that a culture of violence against women by men is worse than the other two examples?
Nearly everyone has the common experience of family when young, and the demonstration of behaviour between the adults is where we learn stuff. If 1 in 3 gets violent lessons, more often than not, the males doing it and the females getting it - and yes the males get it too - that's where the seeds for it all are planted. Sure males get it too, more often from other men than women. Which underscores the directionality of it.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
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Fineline
Shipmate
# 12143
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Plique-à-jour:
Some women hit men! Poor men. More men get murdered, so, y'know. Poor men. Some women hit women, how about that? It's not all mens' fault. Poor men. Poor, poor men.
The reason I pointed out that sometimes women are abusers was because noprophet said: 'So I ask, are 30% of men absolute jerks and worthy of prosecution?' I was looking at the mathematics, and in the light of the fact that some women are abusers, one can't draw the conclusion that all these women have been abused by men, and each by a different man at that, and that therefore we are talking about 30% of men.
But mathematics aside, I actually think it is very important to point out that some women are abusers. It doesn't suggest 'poor, poor men' in the slightest. People are very aware that men abuse. Not so aware that women abuse. I was abused very badly by my mother throughout my childhood. When I was trying to work through it, I found that there was lots and lots of material out there on abusive fathers, but all I could find on abusive mothers was a book called The Myth of the Abusive Mother - which, as its title suggests, argued that women can't abuse, that anything that goes wrong in a family is all the men's fault, and that women are basically goddesses.
This is a thread about women who are abused. There is absolutely no reason why it can't be pointed out that sometimes women are the abusers. It is an important, and often overlooked - even often disbelieved - fact.
Posts: 2375 | From: England | Registered: Dec 2006
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
Nearly everyone has the common experience of family when young, and the demonstration of behaviour between the adults is where we learn stuff. If 1 in 3 gets violent lessons, more often than not, the males doing it and the females getting it - and yes the males get it too - that's where the seeds for it all are planted. Sure males get it too, more often from other men than women. Which underscores the directionality of it.
The invisible domestic violence – against men
quote:
If the empirical research is correct in suggesting that between a quarter and half of all domestic violence victims are men, a question follows: why has women's domestic violence towards men been unreported for so long, and what has changed in the last five years to make it more visible?
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Forward the New Republic
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
Nearly everyone has the common experience of family when young, and the demonstration of behaviour between the adults is where we learn stuff. If 1 in 3 gets violent lessons, more often than not, the males doing it and the females getting it - and yes the males get it too - that's where the seeds for it all are planted. Sure males get it too, more often from other men than women. Which underscores the directionality of it.
The invisible domestic violence – against men
quote:
If the empirical research is correct in suggesting that between a quarter and half of all domestic violence victims are men, a question follows: why has women's domestic violence towards men been unreported for so long, and what has changed in the last five years to make it more visible?
Perhaps the answer is in the paragraph immediately preceding that statement in your link-- the fact that women are twice as likely to be injured or killed thru domestic violence. In the triage of compassion, murdered is pretty much always going to trump bruised.
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
You say that, but firstly power isn't just about strength
I'd say the difference in mortality rates would suggest strength/ size may in fact have something quite significant to do with it.
[ 21. June 2013, 17:35: Message edited by: cliffdweller ]
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Of course, violence isn't the only form of abuse either...
No it is not. To go further, the dynamic is not always one-sided.
Though I would maintain that men are more often the abusers because of the dynamics I mentioned earlier.
However
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
If the empirical research is correct in suggesting that between a quarter and half of all domestic violence victims are men, a question follows: why has women's domestic violence towards men been unreported for so long, and what has changed in the last five years to make it more visible?
Though I would posit that these abuse reports are rising because incidents are occurring more frequently. As women become gain power, this is an inevitable outcome. We become equals in bastardy as well.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Though I would posit that these abuse reports are rising because incidents are occurring more frequently. As women become gain power, this is an inevitable outcome. We become equals in bastardy as well.
May you please be wrong.
Just to tangentially discuss related issues of power and dynamics. I founded a company with 1 partner, another man. We've added 2 partners since then, both women, and 2 more are coming on stream, also women. The culture of our office is consensus based decision making with as little power politics as possible. There was intent 25 years ago between the two of us who started it to have it this way after bailing out of civil and gov't service that was being trashed (still is) as a function of Reaganomics/Thatcherism/Mulroneyism, but it wasn't really fully realized until the women started managing it. What I am saying is that there is a difference when women have the power, and even my intent as a well intentioned man isn't the same. I noted the same thing with my wife when she became head of a university department. We're talking, I hope, about a social change and experiment with changed dynamics about everything when we empower women. And I am totally into it, and must be as I aspire for my daughters.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Though I would posit that these abuse reports are rising because incidents are occurring more frequently. As women become gain power, this is an inevitable outcome. We become equals in bastardy as well.
May you please be wrong.
That's pretty much the conclusion of the meta-research the Guardian article quotes (which is here - pdf).
If you go to the last few paragraphs, the researchers posit that in strongly patriarchal societies where men hold the power, and women are reliant on men for resources and permission to mix with other women, domestic abuse is pretty much male-on-female.
quote:
There will be a number of circumstances in which this pattern is overridden, with the result that female aggression increases. One is where there are modern secular liberal values together with economic and familial emancipation of women: Most of the studies finding frequent female physical aggression were located in such conditions. These values will have greatest impact in a relationship that can be ended by the woman at little cost and where the rate of male aggression is low. These may represent specific instances of a more general set of circumstances entailing a relative change in the balance of power between men and women.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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tclune
Shipmate
# 7959
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
There was intent 25 years ago between the two of us who started it to have it this way after bailing out of civil and gov't service that was being trashed (still is) as a function of Reaganomics/Thatcherism/Mulroneyism, but it wasn't really fully realized until the women started managing it. What I am saying is that there is a difference when women have the power, and even my intent as a well intentioned man isn't the same.
I hear this swill a lot. IME, it is complete BS. I have worked much of my carrer, including the last decade or so, for a company headed by a strong-willed woman. She has many wonderful attributes. But she is a tyrant -- often a benevolent one, and always the smartest person in the room, but a tyrant. The notion that men bosses are alpha males and women bosss are fuzzy consensus-builders is ideological puffery. My experience is that people in power often abuse their power. That's not a man thing -- it's a person-in-power thing.
--Tom Clune
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This space left blank intentionally.
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
What I am saying is that there is a difference when women have the power, and even my intent as a well intentioned man isn't the same.
Not my experience.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by tclune:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
There was intent 25 years ago between the two of us who started it to have it this way after bailing out of civil and gov't service that was being trashed (still is) as a function of Reaganomics/Thatcherism/Mulroneyism, but it wasn't really fully realized until the women started managing it. What I am saying is that there is a difference when women have the power, and even my intent as a well intentioned man isn't the same.
I hear this swill a lot. IME, it is complete BS. I have worked much of my carrer, including the last decade or so, for a company headed by a strong-willed woman. She has many wonderful attributes. But she is a tyrant -- often a benevolent one, and always the smartest person in the room, but a tyrant. The notion that men bosses are alpha males and women bosss are fuzzy consensus-builders is ideological puffery. My experience is that people in power often abuse their power. That's not a man thing -- it's a person-in-power thing.
--Tom Clune
That's not what I said.
We intentionally started a company 25 years ago building on the consensus model with limited hierarchy. I am, and my original partner are not alphas. We both had rather unfortunate experiences as children, and intentionally went the other way. We continue with this, and I see it accelerating with the women taking over the management. I guess you have only experience of women as bitch-bosses? We haven't hired them from either gender. I would allow that there has been a general societal change, historical life and times, and I could party misattribute. But BS? - please go eat some because I'm not having your's.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Fineline
Shipmate
# 12143
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
If the empirical research is correct in suggesting that between a quarter and half of all domestic violence victims are men, a question follows: why has women's domestic violence towards men been unreported for so long, and what has changed in the last five years to make it more visible?
Embarrassment. Men being seen as wimps, as 'girly', if they 'let themselves' be abused by women. Abuse of males not being taken seriously. This is slowly changing because nowadays there is more emphasis on awareness of abuse in all its forms, and it is becoming more acceptable for a man to show feelings, and not be the stereotypical 'macho man'.
Also, traditionally, there has been an emphasis on men being the strong one, the provider, the protecter. Reporting a partner for abusing you (and even for abusing your children) isn't protecting her. Nowadays, feminism has created an atmosphere where equality is okay, where men being the protecter is outdated, so many men no longer feel this obligation. So much abuse is covered up by the inclination to 'protect' though - including women wanting to protect men, as well as men wanting to protect women.
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
But BS? - please go eat some because I'm not having your's.
Excuse me! Feel free to call tclune to Hell, but do not start making personal attacks here!
Gwai,
Purgatory Host
You are correct of course. I apologise. I did not react well to being told I had posted BS. I should ignore such things, and with emotions about the topic being high enough that I should have waited to respond until lower.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by Plique-à-jour:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
I fail to see how I'm responsible for violence against women because I'm a man.
I didn't say that or anything like it. Thank you for confirming what I was saying.
quote:
It's not all mens' fault. Poor men. Poor, poor men.
quote:
The important thing is for men not to be made to feel bad about what violent men have done
Did you mean these two quotes unsarcastically then?
My read of that last is, if you are not one of those violent men, why would you read the phrase "1 out of 3 women are abused" as applying to you in any way? And if it clearly does not apply to you, why talk as if it does?
Because for me, it's not the violent behavior of violent men I find chilling, it's the dawning suspicion that a lot of nice guys are less concerned about keeping violence against anyone in check about defending thier own honor? Why? When was it in question?
And it deflects from focusing on the problem-- if one out of three women are being abused, then what is happening that makes that number so high? Why women in particular? Because my suspsicion is that the high focus of abuse on women is less about various types of men but about various attudes about women people of both genders have. And it seems we never get to finish that part of the conversation.
As she said, it's like the mere idea that this collection of words might offend some non-violent man is very much more important that the actual physical abuse of fucking one out of 3 women.
Silence is death. Expressing hostility when someone talks about what happens to women-- as if that has anything to do with anyone but the women themselves, and what might possibly be making them particularly vulnerable to begin with-- makes it that much easier for a woman to keep quiet when she's abused, as she doesn't want to make waves. And an abused man who is watching the kind of dismissal and rerouting women get when they try to discuss what is happening to them might be inclined to keep his mouth shut forever, rather than opening up to the possiblility of the same treatment.
As Adeodatus said, strengthening people to learn what a healthy relationship is like will help the situation. Abuse of any kind stems from one person deciding he/ she has the authority/ excuse to inflict harm on someone, and from the false idea that acting on that percieved authority/ excuse somehow increases one's power. The only way to display how false those ideas are is to examine some of them up close, and the only way to do that is to talk about it. Rather than slamming down the conversation with "This is man-hating!" why not use the dymanics of women being abused-- by whoever-- as a jumping off point to talk about how abuse happens other ways?
[ 21. June 2013, 20:25: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Some men may get defensive, it's true, Kel. But lobbing hand grenades at them isn't going to get through their defenses, and we really need them on board as well (or as many of them as we can conceivably get on board) to address this epidemic. It would be nice if we didn't have to try to find a way through their defenses; that is the ideal world. But the ideal world doesn't have 1 in 3 women being abused, either.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
Kelly, I pretty much agree with everything you say. I'm reasonably certain that most commenters on this thread deplore violence against women by whichever gendered aggressor. I certainly do.
The complaint I have is the use of "men" as a collective noun when it comes to violence against women. Plique managed to deploy it in a way that had anyone done similar with a different noun, be it "women", "gays", "Jews", or whatever, there would have been blood on the board and a queue for a Hell call.
Feminism allows me to tell my daughter she can do all of the sciences and no one is going to stop her. It allows me to tell my quiet, bookish son that his worth is not measured by his ability at team games. It allows me to tell my daughter that she is judged by the content of her character, not by the contents of her bra. It allows me to tell my son that trash-talking a girl's reputation is something that men don't do. And feminism allows me to talk to both my teenage son and my teenage daughter about domestic violence: both perpetrating it, and being a victim of it, because both appear to be equally possible in our culture.
I am responsible for my speaking out against violence against women. I am responsible for stopping it when I encounter it. I am responsible for raising my son to reject it. That is because I hold those who are violent against women to be responsible for violence against women. What offends me is not the 'collection of words' but the firm belief held by some that I am personally responsible for violence against women because I'm a man.
I have crippling guilt in lots of different areas, but this is not one of them. Neither will I be passing that guilt on to my son.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
As she said, it's like the mere idea that this collection of words might offend some non-violent man is very much more important that the actual physical abuse of fucking one out of 3 women.
![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by wishandaprayer:
The point is we ALSO have a culture of violence against MEN by men. We ALSO have a culture of violence against ethnic minorities by ethnic majorities. These are facts.
I seem to remember studies showing a strong correlation between people who abuse animals and people who abuse women or children.
If this is right, it suggests that it's more about the abuser having a particular kind of nasty bullying personality than anything else, and in turn suggests, contra Kelly, that the fact that women are most often victims has more to do with the fact that most men are heterosexual, so the people they have in their houses available for abuse are women. If this is right, it's not because they have a particular view of the role of women, it's that a woman is available as victim.
I don't think that's entirely right - some forms of abuse (especially so-called "honour killings" and the like) are obviously to do with the abuser's view of the role of women, but I wonder if there might be more to it than a simple "abusers are misogynists."
The WHO report says that one in three women will experience domestic violence in her life. Is that not about the same fraction as will be raped? Actually, given that the majority of rapes are by people known to the victim, perhaps this is another measure of the same set of victims and offenders.
One in three is a pretty horrifying statistic. It would be nice if it was accompanied by a couple of other numbers to give a better picture of the scale of the problem: for how long, on average, are those 1 in 3 women abused? Suffering a single incident is different (and perhaps warrants a different approach to combat) from suffering years of abuse by the same abuser.
A UK Home Office study reported that 7% of women and 4% of men were victims of domestic violence in the past year, suggesting that a substantial fraction of that one in three are victims of prolonged abuse over months or years.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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Honest Ron Bacardi
Shipmate
# 38
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Posted
Kelly - I would be a lot more comfortable if the discussion had by now moved towards some sort of discussion of what might be done. But if you go back and re-read the first eight or so posts, they were all because of consequential assumptions that no prophet had made in his OP. That usually happens when people post OP's that do that. If you want to avoid that sort of thing happening, then don't try to draw unsupportable assumptions in your OP. OK, some were questions - but questions invite answers.
Though having said that I have a lot of sympathy with the main thrust of the OP. So to try to add some suggestions:-
1. I absolutely agree with Adeodatus about relationship education.
2. But the report cited itself makes clear that violence against women tracks violence in all other aspects of society. Violence against women is part of domestic violence, which is part of wider societal violence. I can't pretend to offer you a cogent analysis of all the reasons why that is, but it is important, because it suggests that unless you address the whole violence thing, you will be wasting your time. So in fact those points raised earlier in the thread are far more important than your dismissal of them merits.
3. Power, who has it and how they use it is undoubtedly of enormous importance. But it's not the end of the story because there are many examples of lateral violence in relationships (i.e. between people who have no overt power over each other). So that also needs to be considered.
4. Emotional violence. This all too often accompanies physical violence. The UN report does not include it, not because it is unimportant but because there are no comparable data available. But any realistic programme needs to address emotional violence as it is linked.
5. Culture. Yes, it is important, but I objected to the lazy use of culture earlier for the simple reason that people belong to overlapping subcultures, and ISTM that this is the level that problem ideation occurs and is fostered. That needs addressing, and it won't get addressed until we are clearer what we mean by culture.
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Anglo-Cthulhic
Posts: 4857 | From: the corridors of Pah! | Registered: May 2001
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Honest Ron Bacardi
Shipmate
# 38
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Posted
Leorning Cniht wrote: quote:
A UK Home Office study reported that 7% of women and 4% of men were victims of domestic violence in the past year, suggesting that a substantial fraction of that one in three are victims of prolonged abuse over months or years.
According to Domestic Violence: Findings from a new British Crime Survey self-completion questionnaire (Home Office Research Study 191)
quote:
Those who had been victims in the last year were asked to give an exact
count of the number of times they had been assaulted and injured in the
year. The average number of incidents of physical assault per female victim
was 5.2, and per male victim it was 5.0.
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Anglo-Cthulhic
Posts: 4857 | From: the corridors of Pah! | Registered: May 2001
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
The trouble with saying that 'men abuse women' in these contexts, is that it could lead to a new kind of essentialism - that men are intrinsically abusive and violent. Well, that's possible, I guess.
I suppose the traditional analysis via the idea of patriarchy is not essentialist - but argues that men have been on top of the tree for millenia, and women have been oppressed and suppressed.
If so many women are being abused, this suggests that although some reforms have been made to patriarchy, it remains intact. Or you could argue that some men are resenting any gains made by women, as with the Taliban, and that patriarchy is actually being reinforced in some areas of the world.
But the Steubenville rape case shows that it's not that far away, and that some men won't admit the seriousness of the problem, and some are willing to enforce the abuse (and some to condone it). But there are some who resist it also. So men are not a monolithic bloc.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
I'm not sure about the non-reporting of violence by women on men. I had occasion to ring the police domestic violence unit for advice about a man I knew who was assaulted by his mother, and the woman I spoke to told me that this sort of thing was far from uncommon. So it has been reported at that level - but probably not as far as the media.
And I called the police about a terrible noise from a neighbours' home, which could have been the woman dealing with someone who had broken in, but wasn't. So that would have been recorded somehow.
I do wonder, though, about the male on female violence, whether it is linked to the way the men concerned define themselves. I have noticed in primary school children how most boys seem to define themselves by not being girls. (One of my nephews was influenced on his first day at school into dropping certain activities because they were girly.) If a man grows up with this sort of idea deep inside, without positive male images, then a woman challenging this self image (by doing something he thinks is man stuff, or being in some way what he perceives is mannish) would be an attack on what they believe themselves to be and the violence would be defending their own being. (That is a horrendously long sentence, but I can't see where to break it up.)
For a man like that, a woman has to be not-man, for a man to be a man. (And that could segue into women being not-human, for a man to be a man.)
This hypothesis only applies to the class of men who abuse women. Obviously the majority are real men who don't need to be defined by not being whatever it is they feel they are not.
Does that make sense? She says, humbly, to avoid being challenging.
[ 22. June 2013, 08:43: Message edited by: Penny S ]
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Penny S
Interesting stuff there. There are arguments that male identity is precarious and full of shame. Hence, one way to counteract that is to bash women, who might be perceived as a threat to masculinity.
I think machismo is of great importance in this area, and it can be studied empirically - for example, in anthropology.
I suppose then you are faced with the interesting question as to the origins of machismo - well, patriarchy is a good bet. But why is masculinity sometimes such a caricature?
Freud had a stab at this with his idea of castration fear, often derided today. But yes, woman is not-man, scary!
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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