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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: What would you say?
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MrsBeaky
Shipmate
# 17663
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Posted
I had an email this week from some friends who are Christians. They have been invited by a church to attend an event where someone who is a "prophet" will be praying and prophesying to envision people for their lives.
My friends are planning to go but they are very nervous, not sure what to expect.
They have asked for my comments and prayers....I am happy to pray but it is a long time since I have been in such an environment and I'm at a loss as to know what to say.
How would you respond?
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"It is better to be kind than right."
http://davidandlizacooke.wordpress.com
Posts: 693 | From: UK/ Kenya | Registered: Apr 2013
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wishandaprayer
Shipmate
# 17673
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by MrsBeaky:
How would you respond?
This will largely be a question of individual belief, of course, so how I would respond may not be how you would respond. I would respond with the encouragement that it should be approached rationally, and that we should be on the watch out for charlatanism.
Maybe a quick course in cold reading would be useful too.
Posts: 94 | Registered: May 2013
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tclune
Shipmate
# 7959
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Posted
I would worry about anyone who was "nervous" about going. They sound susceptible to quackery to my ear. So I would suggest that they pass on this until they have developed the spiritual maturity to be in no danger of being victimized by religious con men.
--Tom Clune
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Posts: 8013 | From: Western MA | Registered: Jul 2004
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
prophesying to envision people for their lives
If this is an actual quote from the "prophets'" material, I think we can all tell which way this is going.
What the hell does 'prophesying to envision people for their lives' even mean?
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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shamwari
Shipmate
# 15556
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Posted
Short answer.
Tell them to plead a prior engagement.
Posts: 1914 | From: from the abyss of misunderstanding | Registered: Mar 2010
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Plique-à-jour
Shipmate
# 17717
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Posted
I'd say they should stay away from this, and consider changing churches if they're attending the place that offered it.
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Posts: 333 | From: United Kingdom | Registered: Jun 2013
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MrsBeaky
Shipmate
# 17663
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
prophesying to envision people for their lives
If this is an actual quote from the "prophets'" material, I think we can all tell which way this is going.
What the hell does 'prophesying to envision people for their lives' even mean?
To be fair I don't know what the publicity (if there is any!) says: this is more my friends' understanding of what has happened in the past at similar events. The expectation is that people will be encouraged by prayer and "prophetic words" to pursue their vocation in life.I know people who sincerely believe that God has spoken to them at such times and who have been encouraged to go on and do some really good things but I have also seen some real damage done too.....I am feeling as sick as a dog!
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"It is better to be kind than right."
http://davidandlizacooke.wordpress.com
Posts: 693 | From: UK/ Kenya | Registered: Apr 2013
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
I'd ask the prophet for next week's lottery numbers.
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
prophesying to envision people for their lives
What the hell does 'prophesying to envision people for their lives' even mean?
That was my first question.
My second question is, why do people think this man is a prophet?
Posts: 6817 | Registered: May 2002
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by MrsBeaky:
My friends are planning to go but they are very nervous, not sure what to expect.
They have asked for my comments and prayers....I am happy to pray but it is a long time since I have been in such an environment and I'm at a loss as to know what to say.
How would you respond?
Seeing as I believe the gift of prophecy is active among Christians today (as also are the 'gifts' of charlatanism, cold reading, manipulation etc...), I'd encourage friends of mine to go with a cautious but hopeful expectation of God to be among the people gathered.
I'd urge them to take on board whatever prophecies are given at the meeting, and weigh them up against the Bible, other words they might have received previously, their own sense of calling and so on.
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
Posts: 3309 | From: The south coast (of England) | Registered: Jan 2011
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
I'd say "RUN AWAY! RUN AWAY!"
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Fineline
Shipmate
# 12143
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Posted
I'd ask them why they were nervous, and what their own thoughts on it were, and have a conversation with them that way. Rather than impose my opinions, I'd try to find out what their own thoughts and fears were, and then if they were thinking things similar to what I was thinking, I'd say 'Yes, that is something I would wonder about too.' And if they were thinking things very different from what I was thinking, I'd then add my own thoughts - I'd talk about how I would feel if it were me, and I'd also share some of my experiences - but I wouldn't tell them what to do. In general, I believe in letting people work things out for themselves and giving them any info that I happen to have which may be relevant, rather than telling them what I think they should do.
Posts: 2375 | From: England | Registered: Dec 2006
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
I'd say "RUN AWAY! RUN AWAY!"
I think this gets it about right. Look at the Old Testament tradition. Can you imagine Elijah attending an event like this? Real prophets are trouble: they go where they're not wanted, and kick ass. False prophets are trouble: they go where they are wanted, and lead people into darkness.
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
I'd say "RUN AWAY! RUN AWAY!"
I think this gets it about right. Look at the Old Testament tradition. Can you imagine Elijah attending an event like this? Real prophets are trouble: they go where they're not wanted, and kick ass. False prophets are trouble: they go where they are wanted, and lead people into darkness.
We're in (post-) New Testament times, though, not Old Testament. And the NT description of prophets is that they are to 'equip God’s people to do his work and build up the church' (Eph 4:12). We're also told that Christians* should 'desire the special abilities the Spirit gives - especially the ability to prophesy [because] one who prophesies strengthens others, encourages them, and comforts them'. (1 Cor 14)
*Those in Corinth, at least. I see no reason not to apply these instructions to all God's people but YMMV...
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
Posts: 3309 | From: The south coast (of England) | Registered: Jan 2011
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by MrsBeaky:
My friends are planning to go but they are very nervous, not sure what to expect.
If they're that nervous, why are they going? Can't they prioritise some other urgent activity? It sounds as if they want to stay in someone's good books rather than benefit from this service, whatever that might mean.
I heard an Anglican vicar say something very interesting at an ecumenical Lent course meeting this year. She said that one advantage of talking to people from other faith traditions is that it often helps you clarify what you yourself believe. Maybe your friends could try to attend the event with this thought in mind. It will help to increase their ecumenical awareness if nothing else.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
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Posted
Something tells me this may be a Seventh Day Adventist program. If so, it will be about the coming apocalypse, rapture and all. Clarence Yancy,
the editor to Christianity Today, a conservative Christian magazine said he grew up with such prophecies, but he said they never came to pass.
My advice, find a reason not to go.
Posts: 2193 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Will the prophet be washing the feet of the poor? Visiting the sick? The imprisoned? Widows and orphans in their affliction?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
the NT description of prophets is that they are to 'equip God’s people to do his work and build up the church'
Yes. However, it says precious little about them holding special meetings which people are goaded/guilted into attending because of the prospect of a "special prophecy for them" and/or the threat of "missing out on what God has in store for them". It also says a whole bundle about false prophets and deception.
I've experienced plenty of false prophecy and very occasionally, what I believe to be the real thing, and I can tell you that the latter didn't happen in an environment like this.
Also, what mousethief and Martin said.
[ 21. June 2013, 22:02: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I am no a prophet nor the son of a prophet, but I think I can predict the outcome of this one. It'll be pants.
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I'd also ask South Coast Kevin - hello again ![[Biased]](wink.gif) - how we are supposed to use the scriptures to weigh and evaluate these apparent prophecies?
People often say that this is what you are supposed to do but I've yet to hear anyone give a clear instruction on how this should be done.
Obviously, if someone prophecies something that is clearly against the grain of scripture - such as having it away with other people's spouses - then it's evidently way off beam.
But that's not how these things work, is it?
Generally speaking, these 'words' and prophecies are so vague and open to all manner of interpretations that it's difficult to actually apply any explicitly scriptural yardstick.
For the most part all they are are platitudes dressed up in scriptural sounding language.
I would submit that 9 times out of 10 we don't even need to go to our Bibles to cite chapter and verse or 'weigh' these things up because, quite frankly, most of them are bollocks.
I was waiting for a Chinese takeaway the other day and on a poster on the wall read the various predictions and so on against the Year of the Dog, Year of the Rat and what-have-you. I looked up my own birth-date and that of my wife's and the corresponding analysis/predictions could easily have been made to fit our particular circumstances had I been so inclined.
In what way is this spiritual fortune-telling any different?
Just because it's happening in a Christian context doesn't validate it. I don't see any scriptural warrant whatsoever for holding special meetings where some self-appointed prophet gives people 'words' and confirmation/encouragement etc.
I'm surprised at you even cutting this guy any slack.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
Will the prophet be washing the feet of the poor? Visiting the sick? The imprisoned? Widows and orphans in their affliction?
Probably not at this particular event, but fair question...
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
the NT description of prophets is that they are to 'equip God’s people to do his work and build up the church'
Yes. However, it says precious little about them holding special meetings which people are goaded/guilted into attending because of the prospect of a "special prophecy for them" and/or the threat of "missing out on what God has in store for them".
Well, indeed. But maybe these people are in a situation where their main Christian community - the people they meet with regularly - aren't remotely into prophecy. If that's the case, I'd understand their attending an event like the one described in the thread starter.
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I'd also ask South Coast Kevin - hello again - how we are supposed to use the scriptures to weigh and evaluate these apparent prophecies?
...Obviously, if someone prophecies something that is clearly against the grain of scripture - such as having it away with other people's spouses - then it's evidently way off beam.
But that's not how these things work, is it?
Evening Mr G, and welcome back. ![[Smile]](smile.gif) I agree that many prophecies can't really be weighed up against the Bible, but that was just one of the tests I put forward. It won't help one make a judgement on every prophecy given; maybe it won't even help with the majority.
I'm a big fan of praying over things like prophetic messages with a group of friends who know you well - they'll have a sense of what you're all about as a person and (hopefully) they'll be cool with sounding a note of caution if they think the prophecy or one's own interpretation is somewhat dubious.
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
Posts: 3309 | From: The south coast (of England) | Registered: Jan 2011
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Indifferently
Shipmate
# 17517
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Posted
Absolutely do not go. Diviners get their powers from the devil. The Scriptures absolutrly forbid divination and give stern warnings against false prophets.
Posts: 288 | From: United Kingdom | Registered: Jan 2013
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
I don't know whether or not this prophet is the real deal--but even someone with intuition, a prophetic gift, "word of knowledge/wisdom", what have you, can be immature, nasty, and plain misuse their ability.
So best to be careful:
--Tell them to make sure not to get separated. I once went, with friends, to a gathering at a strange-in-both-senses church. It was scary and crazy and cultish. We got separated, and that may have been by design. It took some doing to get back together and re-establish our sense of reality.
--Will they have to depend on someone else for transportation? That can get dicey if things go badly.
--Are they being pressured to go? If so, they're better off not going.
--Have they specifically been wanting life-direction advice? Do they feel any inward pull to go? Not due to pressure, or guilt at avoiding the Lord's will for them.
--Do they have any inner alarms going off?
--If they do go, they should feel free to leave *at any time*. They should also test whatever happens and is said against whatever they know to be good, and wise, and sensible. (Including the Bible; but it's easy to get twisted around about what it says.)
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
[QUOTE]Seeing as I believe the gift of prophecy is active among Christians today (as also are the 'gifts' of charlatanism, cold reading, manipulation etc...),...
I'd urge them to take on board whatever prophecies are given at the meeting, and weigh them up against the Bible, other words they might have received previously, their own sense of calling and so on.
I've been (rarely) to gatherings where a stranger told me the words I had been privately praying - an unusual collection of words, recited back to me perfectly - and assurance from God about the situation. Very helpful.
In my personal limited experience, true words from God don't tell you anything startling. Like when a prophet I had never met (and she couldn't know about me because I impulsively stopped in at the meeting in not my own town) described the unusual feature of my house that I have turned into a hidden prayer corner my own friends don't know about, then she described (specifically but without violating my privacy in front of the audience) the question I had been asking God for well over a year, and then she gave me the same answer I was "hearing" from God but not accepting. (My not accepting was why I kept asking.) Hearing the answer this way, I couldn't keep wondering "am really hearing from God or my own twisted mind"!
I suspect new, unexpected statements from God are extremely rare. If she had said "God wants you to go to Africa and work with Pygmies" (when God has never given me any hint of such an idea), no. If God wants you to make a major change, there are lots of hints and circumstances pushing your attention that way, never just a "word" from a "prophet."
If she had said "God wants you to give me money" - no, because her own self-interest would interfere with her ability to hear clearly.
One woman at a recent Episcopalian charismatic conference told me God wanted me to give up the work I mentioned to her. I knew she was wrong because God has been pressuring me to do that work and I've been dragging my feet! I went to the conference director, calmly told him what happened, he quietly gently gave the woman a different task for the rest of the conference.
Note that she reacted to what I had told her, confusing her opinion with God's. That's the opposite of telling me specific unusual wording of my private silent prayer to God the prophet has no way of knowing except from God.
Those who speak what they think is God can get confused even when sincere; we're all human. So you test it, don't just take it. But when it's real, it's a very helpful specific personal assurance about specific personal question or need.
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
I don't know whether or not this prophet is the real deal--but even someone with intuition, a prophetic gift, "word of knowledge/wisdom", what have you, can be immature, nasty, and plain misuse their ability.
So best to be careful:
--Tell them to make sure not to get separated. I once went, with friends, to a gathering at a strange-in-both-senses church. It was scary and crazy and cultish. We got separated, and that may have been by design. It took some doing to get back together and re-establish our sense of reality.
--Will they have to depend on someone else for transportation? That can get dicey if things go badly.
--Are they being pressured to go? If so, they're better off not going.
--Have they specifically been wanting life-direction advice? Do they feel any inward pull to go? Not due to pressure, or guilt at avoiding the Lord's will for them.
--Do they have any inner alarms going off?
--If they do go, they should feel free to leave *at any time*. They should also test whatever happens and is said against whatever they know to be good, and wise, and sensible. (Including the Bible; but it's easy to get twisted around about what it says.)
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Indifferently:
Absolutely do not go. Diviners get their powers from the devil. The Scriptures absolutrly forbid divination and give stern warnings against false prophets.
Diviners? The new testament lists prophets as one of the functions of the church, Paul's speaks approvingly of prophecy.
Don't confuse divination (fortune telling) with prophecy, which has a long strong God-approved history throughout the Old Testament as well as in the New.
By the way I absolutely agree with avoiding any group that wants to take control of you - not allowed to drive your own car? Do people do that?
(Sigh, Cursillo! There never is a specific clear test to point to I guess. More like a collection of factors.)
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
BR--
If the car comment was directed at what I said: I just meant that if Mrs. Beaky's friends rode with someone else and her friends decided to vamoose, they might be in a jam. In the incident I mentioned, my friends and I rode with a friend who attended that church. So we couldn't leave until the friend was ready, even though we were freaked out.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
Well, indeed. But maybe these people are in a situation where their main Christian community - the people they meet with regularly - aren't remotely into prophecy. If that's the case, I'd understand their attending an event like the one described in the thread starter.
In my subjective experience, a church "not being remotely into prophecy" does not get in the way of a member receiving a genuine word from God in the slightest. The same applies to healing.
Just because these people go round using the words "prophecy" or "healing" all the time in no way increases the actual incidence thereof.
Remember what Jesus said about people rushing round in the last days saying "here he is" or "there he is"? It's a bit like that. Also, the bit in Matthew 11 where he talks about the dangers of seeking to encounter God with a specific aim in mind ("what did you go out to see...?" "we played the flute for you, and you did not dance...").
As posted here before, my view is that the actual presence of the Holy Spirit at work in any event or location is in inverse proportion to how much this presence is claimed for the event or location.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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MrsBeaky
Shipmate
# 17663
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Posted
Thank you, Shipmates
I'm really interested to see that the responses to my OP so far are such a mixture of sound practical advice for my friends and a wider discussion of the substance/ role of "prophecy" today.
I found some of the personal anecdotes (Belle Ringer and others) particularly helpful.
I agree with Eutychus: my husband has a theory which he calls the titles opposite syndrome....based on his experience as a teenager when he worshipped at a church called "****United free church" his comment being one out of four can't be bad!perhaps when we aspire to call ourselves something we will always be challenged
My friends do believe in the gift of prophecy being in use today but also have reservations about the lunatic fringe and are in quite a vulnerable state so my prayer is that the friends who have invited them to this event act with the all the wisdom of your suggestions up thread.
My personal experience of what is termed prophecy is very mixed: some cringe worthy and scary moments but also a few profound and precious times of sensing God's voice.
PS Welcome back Gamaliel, you went ashore as I came on board so I'm glad you're back.
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"It is better to be kind than right."
http://davidandlizacooke.wordpress.com
Posts: 693 | From: UK/ Kenya | Registered: Apr 2013
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
Belle Ringer, many thanks for sharing some your experiences with prophecy, both good ones and bad. Really helpful, I thought.
Golden Key - sound advice, IMO. Please, everyone, don't get the impression that I'm gung-ho and uncritical about prophecy. To the contrary, I think it's vital to use your critical faculties and test any message given to you (especially if it's explicitly labelled 'prophecy', as the label can be applied in an effort to manipulate).
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
Just because these people go round using the words "prophecy" or "healing" all the time in no way increases the actual incidence thereof.
Sure, I think you're right, but maybe Mrs Beaky's friends don't have a Christian context in which prophecy could happen readily, even without it being labelled as prophecy. If something like that is the case, I'd understand their interest in going to a meeting like what we're talking about.
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
Posts: 3309 | From: The south coast (of England) | Registered: Jan 2011
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
This might sound harsh, Kevin - and thanks for the welcome back - and Mrs Beaky too - but I think you're starting from a different footing to me.
Eutychus has nailed it, I think.
Forgive me, but your default position seems to be that any utterance of this kind has to be a prophecy and the task of the people gathered is to discern it to be so. Would that be an adequate representation of your position?
Mine would be the opposite of that these days.
My first reaction would be, 'Is it a prophecy?' and if I/others felt it was, then we'd start to unpack it. But 9 times out of 10 I don't think that's what we're dealing with here. Not.at.all.
I was involved with a diocesan event the other day (in a lay capacity of course) in which we were asked at the end to reflect on what had been said and whether we felt that there was agreement.
I quoted the closing line from an Edward Thomas poem that I'd been reminded of by the setting - we were surrounded by woods. It was pertinent, 'fitted' the occasion and several people found it helpful and it 'confirmed' for them that we were on the right track in our discussions. Time will tell.
Time was when I'd have dressed that up a bit and presented it as some kind of prophecy in the charismatic sense. I didn't. Why? Because that's not what it was. It was simply an observation and reflection. They may have been some wisdom in it, but who knows? Let's see what happens and whether there is any result from our meetings/deliberations and planning.
I've an idea that had I shared an insight/observation/reflection of that kind in a setting where you and your mates were praying it could have been received as some kind of 'prophetic word.'
The issue is, as I've discussed before (and bored everyone half to death) is that we've raised (or lowered?) the bar on 'prophecy' to such an extent that almost anything can get through.
It all becomes self-fulfilling prophecy, it all becomes a tickling of the ears ...
Eutychus is right. 'What did you go out to see ...?'
If you're looking for prophecy you'll find it because you'll work things around to the extent that almost anything and everything that is metaphorical or figurative or expressed in a particular way (and I don't mean 'thus saith the Lord') becomes a putative prophecy.
Believe me, I've worked with people who conduct secular management and team-building events and what emerges in those settings is very like what many charismatics consider to be prophecies or prophetic direction. The same with creative writing workshops or creative brain-storming sessions around advertising slogans and logos and so on.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
As for having a Christian context in which prophecy can happen readily - irrespective of whether it's labelled as such ... well, that's a self-fulfilling prophecy again isn't it?
If you've got a setting where people believe in prophecies in the way you understand them then 'hey presto' - that's what you've going to get. Same with tongues.
Other Christian contexts have other ways of understanding prophecy. So what you might not consider 'prophetic' in those contexts, you would. And vice-versa.
Not all Christian contexts have a notion of God speaking to us individually in terms of giving instructions/directions etc - they might emphasise thinking Christianly, for instance, and using our faith to inform our decision-making and life-style choices and so forth.
And that's more valid,surely, than running around seeking putative prophecies as the Christian equivalent of the daily horoscope column?
I don't know what church context Mrs Beaky's friends find themselves in. But I'd be prepared to bet that it has practices, processes and contexts that would help and encourage them in their Christian walk in whatever way without them having to dash off to so-called prophetic conferences which are in reality anything but.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
When I worked for Youth for Christ a hundred years ago, Jean Darnall was visiting and took some sessions at the headquarters, including a marathon day of laying hands on each and every staff member attending the conference and speaking prophetically over them.
It wasn't so much about 'you will meet a tall, dark man carrying the Times newspaper on your way through Manchester tomorrow' kind of prophecy. More about naming the gifts of people, or their particular fears and praying for God to release them into whatever their ministry might be.
I didn't really know what to make of it myself. She might've known a very small number of the people there, but most would've been strangers to her. She could've 'read' them or done her homework on them in some way, I suppose. Or she could've said whatever she felt was right at the time, regardless of how things panned out. After all, she wasn't making predictions.
I think she believed genuinelly in what she was doing. But whether God was in it or not - don't know! As it happened she was right in what she said about me. But it could've been coincidence or just acute observation.
If your friends are going alone that may not be a good idea. If they had someone with them who could be a sensible stand-by should they get anxious, would be better.
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Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
Well, indeed. But maybe these people are in a situation where their main Christian community - the people they meet with regularly - aren't remotely into prophecy. If that's the case, I'd understand their attending an event like the one described in the thread starter.
In my subjective experience, a church "not being remotely into prophecy" does not get in the way of a member receiving a genuine word from God in the slightest. The same applies to healing.
Just because these people go round using the words "prophecy" or "healing" all the time in no way increases the actual incidence thereof.
The problem is, if people don't get that side of their spirituality nurtured within the familiar and theologically 'safe' confines of their own church, they may feel inclined to attend other churches that offer such help, churches that may not be quite so theologically respectable.
Why should this couple have to attend a service at a denomination they're wary of just to express their belief in prophecy? It's a shame that their own denomination can't help them with this.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
I've been (rarely) to gatherings where a stranger told me the words I had been privately praying - an unusual collection of words, recited back to me perfectly - and assurance from God about the situation. Very helpful.
In my personal limited experience, true words from God don't tell you anything startling. Like when a prophet I had never met (and she couldn't know about me because I impulsively stopped in at the meeting in not my own town) described the unusual feature of my house that I have turned into a hidden prayer corner my own friends don't know about, then she described (specifically but without violating my privacy in front of the audience) the question I had been asking God for well over a year, and then she gave me the same answer I was "hearing" from God but not accepting. (My not accepting was why I kept asking.) Hearing the answer this way, I couldn't keep wondering "am really hearing from God or my own twisted mind"!
I suspect new, unexpected statements from God are extremely rare. If she had said "God wants you to go to Africa and work with Pygmies" (when God has never given me any hint of such an idea), no. If God wants you to make a major change, there are lots of hints and circumstances pushing your attention that way, never just a "word" from a "prophet."
If she had said "God wants you to give me money" - no, because her own self-interest would interfere with her ability to hear clearly.
One woman at a recent Episcopalian charismatic conference told me God wanted me to give up the work I mentioned to her. I knew she was wrong because God has been pressuring me to do that work and I've been dragging my feet! I went to the conference director, calmly told him what happened, he quietly gently gave the woman a different task for the rest of the conference.
Note that she reacted to what I had told her, confusing her opinion with God's. That's the opposite of telling me specific unusual wording of my private silent prayer to God the prophet has no way of knowing except from God.
Those who speak what they think is God can get confused even when sincere; we're all human. So you test it, don't just take it. But when it's real, it's a very helpful specific personal assurance about specific personal question or need.
![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
Prophecy is God's word spoken through the lips of those who serve him. It affirms calling.
Although some are given the 'gift' of prophecy, it cannot be assumed that God will give words at a specific time or place. This smacks of human control rather than Divine control. Grace cannot be manipulated. I would either steer clear of the event in the op, or go to observe, giving me greater awareness of what is said and done by some in the name of God.
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Why should their denomination help them with their interest with this particular understanding of prophecy, SvitlanaV2?
I would posit that those churches/denominations that have a tradition of spiritual direction, for instance, would be amply well equipped to provide a framework for these people to discern how they believe God to be calling or directing them without the need for them to go off to some odd-ball event with a prophetic label.
Equally, if they were in a conservative evangelical set-up then they might possibly find what they are looking for in the regular Bible studies and so on.
If they were more sacramentally inclined, they might find spiritual nourishment in that.
Why should their church or denomination lay on sessions to feed their need for some kind of apparent supernatural affirmation or 'prophetic' direction?
I can see what you're getting at but a perceived lack of something doesn't necessarily mean that we should go looking for it in the wrong places - and I suspect that's what would be happening here. The very fact that this person is setting themselves up as a prophet and holding specific 'prophetic' meetings in and of itself sets my alarm bells ringing.
If they were really a prophet they wouldn't be doing that in the first place.
It's bunkum.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
Gamaliel
You're making my point for me. This couple shouldn't be planning to attend this event while also be worrying about being imposed upon, or whatever. It shouldn't be an issue because those needs they have should be dealt with by their own denomination. Ideally, they should feel secure in their own beliefs and their own faith tradition, so that if they do attend such events they needn't worry about being overwhelmed.
Of course, we haven't been told which church they belong to, nor which church is holding the event on prophecy. If the couple are Anglicans then there's even less of an excuse - Anglicanism is supposed to be a broad church! But I don't suppose there's much expertise in the URC, for example, in dealing with this sort of thing.
[ 22. June 2013, 12:04: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Ok, I can see your point now ... but there tends to be a certain amount of what I call 'Vineyard-envy' among many Anglicans. They see the apparent success - in numerical terms - of charismatic evangelical churches like the Vineyard or New Frontiers and they think, 'We'll have some of that ...' and then try to replicate it in an Anglican context ... with mixed results.
If these people are 'that way inclined' then they will naturally gravitate towards this kind of spirituality because, for people who like this sort of thing, that's the sort of thing that they like ...
You're a sociologist. Have you read any Andrew Walker? He's a sociologist at King's College London and has written extensively about 'new church' and charismatic movements ... he grew up Pentecostal and is now Russian Orthodox and with 'canon theologian' status in the Church of England. I don't know how that works but there we go ...
Anyway, some years ago now he wrote a paper about a large Pentecostal rally. He interviewed people afterwards about the tongues and interpretations and prophecies and found that people couldn't recollect what had been said. What was more important, from their perspective, was that these things were said and done in the first place.
What the apparent prophecies, tongues and interpretations were doing was to play a reinforcement role - these people felt affirmed and reinforced in their faith by the very fact that these things were happening rather than by any cognitive content derived from the 'messages' themselves.
I think this is an important point.
Prophecy, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I would also disagree with your point about this couple's feeling of wariness and concern ... I would be concerned if I were them.
Think about it. If you are 'open' to the idea of prophecy and supernatural gifts and so on yet don't habitually worship in a setting where these things are expected or de rigeur, then you are going to have mixed feelings.
You'd be wondering whether you would be expected to 'perform', you'd wonder whether there was going to be hype or manipulation.
Yet, because of your propensity to be drawn to what you see as the vatic and the supernatural then you might be prepared to put up with a certain amount of those things ... you would be attending with a certain degree of hope and expectation yet also cognitive dissonance.
I can well understand that. It's how I felt, it's how I lived for many years when I was involved with more full-on charismatic churches.
The same thing happened in reverse when I first attended more sacramental or 'High Church' services ... a sense of hope and expectation, excitement even, combined with wariness about whether I'd be 'led astray' or 'taken in' by the spellbinding effects of icons, incense and iniquity - as the Protestant Truth Society might quaintly put it.
So, no, I can quite sympathise with Mrs Beaky's friends and in no way would I level any charges at them either for wanting or not wanting to attend this event. I've been where they are.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
maybe Mrs Beaky's friends don't have a Christian context in which prophecy could happen readily, even without it being labelled as prophecy.
Why not? He's not a tame lion, you know.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Indeed, SvitlanaV2 ... I suspect that there's an element of dissatisfaction with all of us to a greater or lesser extent. That's part of it. Part of the eschatological tension between the now and the not yet.
I'm sorry to keep banging on here, but I'm also not entirely convinced about your point about 'blaming' the church/tradition to which Mrs Beaky's friends belong for not adequately meeting their 'needs'.
Citing the URC, for instance, as an example of somewhere which might not be able to handle 'these things' would be a bit like criticising the Assemblies of God for not meeting the needs of individual members who might enjoy bells and smells every now and then ... or the local RC parish for not laying on a special guest appearance by the Rev Ian Paisley every now and again in the interests of 'balance' ...
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
More seriously, I can see the point you're making and recognise that your recent experience of churches in decline makes you more inclined to take a more positive view than I might of those outfits which appear to be providing people with what they 'want' in such a way as to encourage growth and vitality.
Not that there's anything wrong with the latter of course.
I think we might be at cross-purposes to a certain extent, though.
I would prefer, for instance, that if a group like the URC were to put on a session about 'prophecy' and so on that they'd do so within their own frame of reference rather than encouraging a free-for-all down at some rally led by some self-appointed prophet without any apparent connection to the ministerial structures of any of the local churches.
But if the URC were to lay on a session about prophecy, I'd imagine it would take a very different form to what's on offer at this particular event. And in that respect may or may not satisfy the punters.
You can't satisfy all of the people all of the time ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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the giant cheeseburger
Shipmate
# 10942
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
maybe Mrs Beaky's friends don't have a Christian context in which prophecy could happen readily, even without it being labelled as prophecy.
Why not? He's not a tame lion, you know.
That doesn't stop many church groups from trying to set up lion-proof fences so they can worship the Kitten of Judah in safety.
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If I give a homeopathy advocate a really huge punch in the face, can the injury be cured by giving them another really small punch in the face?
Posts: 4834 | From: Adelaide, South Australia. | Registered: Jan 2006
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
--Are they being pressured to go? If so, they're better off not going.
This is it exactly. Why are they going? If it's because they've been invited and feel obliged in some way to attend, rather than a spontaneous, "wow that sounds great, let's go", then best to decline. An evening where you sit there on edge worried that you might be pounced on, or singled out in public, isn't going to be relaxing and is a waste of your spare time.
Would they feel relieved if the event was cancelled? If so, that's a pretty clear indication that they don't want to be there.
Why do they want to go? If this doesn't meet with an immediate clear-cut answer, it might well be that they feel they can't really not go, rather than that they have a specific something they want to get out of the evening.
The trouble with "prophets" is that, like getting advice from psychics, it can often be taken more seriously than advice from another human being because it involves the Unseen. But what comes through from the Unseen is not always of God.
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Nor does it stop many church groups from romping with the kitten which they mistake for the Lion and congratulating themselves accordingly, The Giant Cheeseburger ...
As Mark Oakey insightfully said, 'The Church is like a swimming pool, all the noise comes from the shallow end ...'
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
Indeed TGC [EDIT - 'That doesn't stop many church groups from trying to set up lion-proof fences so they can worship the Kitten of Judah in safety.']. IMO God tends not to override our wish to ignore him, if that is indeed our wish. I've heard plenty of people (mainly in seminars at Christian conferences) express a wish for more prophetic activity and so on, alongside a sadness that others in their church aren't in the same place, theologically speaking.
What to do if one is in such a situation? Going along to events where the prophetic will be encouraged seems like a decent option to me, albeit noting that plenty of what gets labelled as prophetic is not actually so, and that something need not be labelled as prophetic in order to be so.
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Forgive me, but your default position seems to be that any utterance of this kind has to be a prophecy and the task of the people gathered is to discern it to be so. Would that be an adequate representation of your position?
I don't think this is my default position at all, sorry! I thought I was clear upthread that the prophetic label can certainly be applied erroneously. I'd say our task in this context is simply to discern the voice of God, and to grow better at discerning it. That's achieved neither by assuming everything badged as prophecy is thus, not by the opposite assumption that anything so badged is not of God.
[ 22. June 2013, 13:54: Message edited by: South Coast Kevin ]
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
Posts: 3309 | From: The south coast (of England) | Registered: Jan 2011
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bib
Shipmate
# 13074
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Posted
I'd react similar to my response to scam phone calls from people I've never met offering me prizes etc ( you know the ones I mean that always seem to happen at dinner time).
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"My Lord, my Life, my Way, my End, accept the praise I bring"
Posts: 1307 | From: Australia | Registered: Oct 2007
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I would prefer, for instance, that if a group like the URC were to put on a session about 'prophecy' and so on that they'd do so within their own frame of reference rather than encouraging a free-for-all down at some rally led by some self-appointed prophet without any apparent connection to the ministerial structures of any of the local churches.
But if the URC were to lay on a session about prophecy, I'd imagine it would take a very different form to what's on offer at this particular event. And in that respect may or may not satisfy the punters.
Of course, the URC would give such a presentation in a URC way. The attenders, being URC members, would accept that. If they were unhappy with the general tone of the URC, they wouldn't be members. Or not for very long. I certainly wouldn't expect the URC people I know to encourage attendance at 'a free-for-all down at some rally led by some self-appointed prophet without any apparent connection to the ministerial structures of any of the local churches.' I wasn't encouraging that sort of inauthentic response.
In the religious heritage I come from it used to be the case that some people would attend a mainstream church in the morning and then a way-out Pentecostal-type church in the evening. This way they would satisfy their divergent spiritual and social needs. I don't know if this still happens, but I imagine that denominational affiliations have hardened over time. I think that having this kind of dual allegiance has something to recommend it, though.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I think that kind of dual attendance thing still happens but not to the same extent as it used to. My old mum-in-law used to attend her parish church in the 1960s and 70s but would often pop out to the Penties in the evening for a 'top up'.
Way back in the early history of Methodism, of course, people continued to attend both the parish church and the Methodist meeting house for long after the Wesleyans seceded from the Anglicans in the immediate post-Wesley era. In some rural areas this persisted until well into the 19th century.
Anyway ...
I can certainly see the appeal and scope for this. It's something I do myself to an extent ... I flit between our evangelical parish and further-up-the-candle or more traditional Anglican places.
So it's not something I'd dismiss out of hand.
@South Coast Kevin ... this sadness of which you speak ... I find myself wondering why these conference speakers are so sad that there is apparently not more of the apparently 'prophetic'. I wonder what that achieves.
I might mourn that evangelical parishes don't have as much emphasis on Patristics or on the sacraments as I might wish but that's not going to get me anywhere either.
I was teasing you to an extent about your default position. I'm not saying that my default position is guilty until proven innocent any more than yours is innocent until proven guilty ...
But I do wonder what all the fuss is about when it comes to the apparently prophetic.
The big, lively, successful churches seem to be big, lively and successful not because they're into prophecy and so on necessarily but because they have a broad appeal with their soft-rock music approach, their friendliness and their family-friendly approach to kids' work and so on ... and they also tend to attract a lot of talented, committed and hard-working people.
I'm not knocking any of that, it's just that these days I tend to see the so-called prophetic element as rather extraneous to all that rather than intrinsic. As the Andrew Walker study revealed, such churches are often more concerned about the fact that they 'felt' that God was speaking to them in some way rather than about what he might be communicating to them.
Do you get my drift?
There's a reassurance in the apparently charismatic that makes it of value. This sense of reassurance, that somehow they are 'on track' is what's important not the actual substance of the 'prophecies' themselves - 99.9% of which I am convinced are nothing of the kind.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
Indeed TGC [EDIT - 'That doesn't stop many church groups from trying to set up lion-proof fences so they can worship the Kitten of Judah in safety.']. IMO God tends not to override our wish to ignore him, if that is indeed our wish.
I think that in effect, that is precisely what a lot of charismatic churches and conferences have done. They might talk about 'hearing from God', but much of what happens follows a rigid formula and is tightly controlled both implicitly and explicitly (I certainly can't see anything like Samuel's prophetic word to Eli getting through the vetting process).
In their own way, charismatics have often circumscribed God as much as anyone else, perhaps even more so. Like I say, I think Jesus' words from Matthew 11 really do apply here. The proceedings are like the children 'playing the flute', and the Holy Spirit is expected to dance accordingly.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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